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Old 06-09-2019, 07:19 PM
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Cyberpunk 2077 has a date! 4-16-2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBXaj9zT1P0


So much sooner that I expected, this is one I have been most eagerly awaiting, and has been on top since the Borderlands 3 Epic store BS. Less than a year away.

It also has some guy who was in a couple movies in the 80's

Last edited by wolfman; 06-09-2019 at 07:21 PM.
  #2  
Old 06-09-2019, 08:40 PM
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I just pre-ordered from GoG after seeing the new footage. It sucks that it is still a year away but man, does it look good.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:29 PM
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This is a movie game right, not an open game? I mean, there's a script and you play the main character in it, right?
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:39 AM
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This is a movie game right, not an open game? I mean, there's a script and you play the main character in it, right?
I'm not exactly sure what distinction you're making. It's a single player game with a main plot that you're the hero of, and there will most likely be several cinematic setpiece-type missions. But it's also an open world game where you can explore the city and do side quests or just mess around. Best guess, it's about a 40 hour game if you just plow through the main quest or a multi-hundred-hour game if you explore every nook and cranny of the city.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:00 AM
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And if it's anything like its predecessors, your character's decisions will end up impacting the story in major and minor ways.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:18 AM
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If it's anything like its predecessors it will end up being much longer than 40 hours when it is all said and done.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:25 AM
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As someone with 573 hours (and counting) in Witcher 3, I'm not really one to complain.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:16 AM
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I'm not exactly sure what distinction you're making. It's a single player game with a main plot that you're the hero of, and there will most likely be several cinematic setpiece-type missions. But it's also an open world game where you can explore the city and do side quests or just mess around. Best guess, it's about a 40 hour game if you just plow through the main quest or a multi-hundred-hour game if you explore every nook and cranny of the city.
I find that I dislike two kinds of games: hallway games (where you proceed on a narrow path, simply working your way thru levels) and movie games (where the "game" is actually a movie script and my button-mashing is just to help move the story along). IMO a movie game is actually the same thing as a hallway game, just dressed up nicer.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:14 PM
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I find that I dislike two kinds of games: hallway games (where you proceed on a narrow path, simply working your way thru levels) and movie games (where the "game" is actually a movie script and my button-mashing is just to help move the story along). IMO a movie game is actually the same thing as a hallway game, just dressed up nicer.
Would you call modern Western RPGs (Witcher, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Assassin's Creed et al) "movie games"?
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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It's from the people who made Fallout: New Vegas, a great game. Still my favorite Fallout and the true Fallout 4.

I never played Fallout 4. I STILL don't have a computer that can run it.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:44 PM
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Keanu Reeves is Johnny Silverhand... If you'd told that to me and my RPG buddies in 1999 when we played Cyberpunk... we woud have laughed at you I think.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:01 PM
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It's from the people who made Fallout: New Vegas
No it's not.

New Vegas was made by Obsidian (published by Bethesda). Obsidian grew out of the guys at Interplay who created Fallout 2.

Cyberpunk 2077 is CD Projekt Red (published by CD Projekt).

While the people who make video games frequently jump studios, or will sometimes contract with another studio while being a direct employee of a different one, this game has very little to do with the guys who made New Vegas.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:13 PM
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Cyberpunk 2077 is CD Projekt Red (published by CD Projekt).
So the guys who made the Witcher games.

Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games of all time so Iím going to follow this one closely.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:50 PM
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Keanu Reeves is Johnny Silverhand... If you'd told that to me and my RPG buddies in 1999 when we played Cyberpunk... we woud have laughed at you I think.
Would you? The Matrix came out in '99. And Johnny Mnemonic came out in '95. Reeves' "cyberpunk cred" was pretty established even by then.

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I find that I dislike two kinds of games: hallway games (where you proceed on a narrow path, simply working your way thru levels) and movie games (where the "game" is actually a movie script and my button-mashing is just to help move the story along). IMO a movie game is actually the same thing as a hallway game, just dressed up nicer.
Cyberpunk 2077 definitely won't be a button-masher or be loaded down with quick-time-events. Most likely, the main plot will be moderately linear, but it can be played or ignored at will in favor of sidequests. As Alessan notes, it is a Western RPG in the vein of The Witcher or Fallout.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:50 PM
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Thanks folks. I have The Witcher: Enhanced Edition and Assassin's Creed 2 but haven't played either, really. I've started AC2 several times but I get bored within minutes. Witcher I bought based on good word of mouth, but I've never been interested enough to even dwnoad it.

I dislike games where I am playing someone else; I want to be the hero.

I've only played Elder Scrolls Online and that, to me, was like WoW or EQ in that you could follow the quest storylines, you could ignore quests and fight other players, etc. Quite a bit of freedom in choices and experiences.

The others mentioned are not games I've played, so I can't comment.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:58 PM
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Would you? The Matrix came out in '99. And Johnny Mnemonic came out in '95. Reeves' "cyberpunk cred" was pretty established even by then.
In my crowd at least, Johnny Mnemonic provided approximately the same cyberpunk cred as starring in Mary Poppins.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:14 PM
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In my crowd at least, Johnny Mnemonic provided approximately the same cyberpunk cred as starring in Mary Poppins.
Fair enough, but it's not like Cyberpunk 2020 didn't have plenty of cheese to start with, or really the entire cyberpunk genre for that matter. It's all a bit silly. William Gibson basically invented the genre without knowing the first thing about actual computers, networks, or virtual reality (doesn't make it not fun, obviously).
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:47 PM
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I dislike games where I am playing someone else; I want to be the hero.
There's going to be plenty of character customization in Cyberpunk 2077. Plenty of choice there in both appearance and gameplay. Though it's first person, so you'll only see yourself in cutscenes and the like.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:06 AM
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I just played the first, oh, 3 minutes of The Witcher. If this is similar to Cyberpunk 2077, I'll pass.

What I saw in Witcher was exactly what I don't like: it's a movie, and I'm just there to advance to the next cut scene. I'm not even involved for about half the time I played, maybe more: I keep having to watch my character (again: not me) do things in cut scenes while I sit and twiddle my thumbs. I don't want to play a game for 5 minutes and then have to watch a 6 minute cut scene. And I don't want to just proceed down a narrow hallway/play out a script that someone else has already determined how it will/should end.

If this was an open world with quests and ways to interact with other people, I'd be there. I'd love a futuristic RPG... but IMO this isn't what is meant by the term RPG; this is play-acting.

Thank you all for helping me sort out what the gameplay here will be like; I look forward to the day when I can see an edit of the story on a perfect walk-thru or something, but I will prolly decline the opportunity to play thru it myself. It does look fantastic.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:01 AM
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I just played the first, oh, 3 minutes of The Witcher. If this is similar to Cyberpunk 2077, I'll pass.

What I saw in Witcher was exactly what I don't like: it's a movie, and I'm just there to advance to the next cut scene. I'm not even involved for about half the time I played, maybe more: I keep having to watch my character (again: not me) do things in cut scenes while I sit and twiddle my thumbs. I don't want to play a game for 5 minutes and then have to watch a 6 minute cut scene. And I don't want to just proceed down a narrow hallway/play out a script that someone else has already determined how it will/should end.

If this was an open world with quests and ways to interact with other people, I'd be there. I'd love a futuristic RPG... but IMO this isn't what is meant by the term RPG; this is play-acting.

Thank you all for helping me sort out what the gameplay here will be like; I look forward to the day when I can see an edit of the story on a perfect walk-thru or something, but I will prolly decline the opportunity to play thru it myself. It does look fantastic.
You couldn't possibly be wronger about The Witcher. Like many RPG's, it starts with some cutscenes and tutorial segments where you're pretty much on rails, but once you get through that it's wide open. The Witcher 3 is probably the best open world RPG that's ever been made.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:14 AM
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The original The Witcher? I haven't actually played that one; only 2 and 3. And less than an hour of 2: it starts with a fairly tedious and linear tutorial segment that demotivated me before the rest of the game (and indeed with lots of non-interactive cutscenes). There was much less of that in W3, and by all accounts, CD Projekt Red greatly improved the mechanics from game to game.

I certainly advise not preordering before you see reviews, but I'd take your experience with the original The Witcher with a grain of salt, since they improved things so much even between sequels.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:08 AM
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Ignore Witcher 1. It's not a good game, but more importantly, it's an old game, and not representative of modern RPGs. Witcher 2 is better, albeit problematic in parts, and is from more of a transitional period. I suggest going right into Witcher 3, which is one of the best of its genre. If you like it, you can go back to 2 for background.

Note that like most Western RPGs, it starts out a bit on rails, to teach players the basics and get the story started. Like several other games, it even has a smaller "trainee map" to wander about and get your bearings in before moving on to the main game map.

Last edited by Alessan; 06-11-2019 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:50 AM
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wasn't cyberpunk 2077 originally a pen and paper game like Shadowrun was/is?
for some reason, I wanna say Steve Jackson games made it ....

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Old 06-11-2019, 04:10 AM
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wasn't cyberpunk 2077 originally a pen and paper game like Shadowrun was/is?
for some reason, I wanna say Steve Jackson games made it ....
In what is a vaguely humorous name now, the 2nd edition of the pen and paper game was called Cyperpunk 2020. (The 1st edition I believe was just called Cyperpunk and was set in 2013.) It was published by R Talsorian Games. Not sure if theyíre still going or not.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:28 AM
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wasn't cyberpunk 2077 originally a pen and paper game like Shadowrun was/is?
for some reason, I wanna say Steve Jackson games made it ....
No, Steve Jackson's game was GURPS Cyberpunk, which come out around the same time.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:41 AM
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You couldn't possibly be wronger about The Witcher. Like many RPG's, it starts with some cutscenes and tutorial segments where you're pretty much on rails, but once you get through that it's wide open. The Witcher 3 is probably the best open world RPG that's ever been made.
Based on that last sentence, I'm guessing that what we each like about (and consider) RPGs and "open worlds" is very different.

Witches 2 is on sale for $3 on Steam. I've got $3 I can afford to throw out in the street so I'll check it out. (I'm a Mac guy, so no W3 for me.)

As I say tho, I am immediately turned off by having to be someone else, an already pre-defined someone else, for a game. That isn't what I mean by "role-playing game" at all. And endless cut scenes to establish a background/story arc for this person (who I don't know & don't care about) makes me want to shut the game off and play something else. I don't want to watch movies/cut scenes; I want to play a game.

I'll give Witcher 2 a try later today after I get some stuff done. I'll try and keep an open mind during the intro and all and at least get to 30 minutes or so of gameplay.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:16 AM
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Again, 2 is not representative of 3. It's only semi-open world, for one. For another, the dialog at times sounds like it was translated from Polish to English using Google Translate.

But at least you'll get some full-frontal nudity, so there's that.

Last edited by Alessan; 06-11-2019 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:27 AM
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One thing to keep in mind is that CDPR is keeping everything close to the vest about '77. The best assumption is that it will model close to the Witcher 3 in design, but nobody really knows much of anything yet.

Last edited by wolfman; 06-11-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:37 AM
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Would you? The Matrix came out in '99. And Johnny Mnemonic came out in '95. Reeves' "cyberpunk cred" was pretty established even by then.
Yes, but is the other way around, we would have laughed because an A-List actor would be playing a fluff-text NPC from a game we were more or less the only ones playing in the entire continent of South America (we had photocopies of the rulebook ) :P
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:21 PM
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Based on that last sentence, I'm guessing that what we each like about (and consider) RPGs and "open worlds" is very different.
What you like is, of course, subjective, but "open world" and "RPG" have objective definitions that don't match the way you're using them.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:29 PM
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Based on that last sentence, I'm guessing that what we each like about (and consider) RPGs and "open worlds" is very different.
Can you give an example of a game you consider to be an Open World RPG?
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:39 PM
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Based on that last sentence, I'm guessing that what we each like about (and consider) RPGs and "open worlds" is very different.

Witches 2 is on sale for $3 on Steam. I've got $3 I can afford to throw out in the street so I'll check it out. (I'm a Mac guy, so no W3 for me.)

As I say tho, I am immediately turned off by having to be someone else, an already pre-defined someone else, for a game. That isn't what I mean by "role-playing game" at all. And endless cut scenes to establish a background/story arc for this person (who I don't know & don't care about) makes me want to shut the game off and play something else. I don't want to watch movies/cut scenes; I want to play a game.

I'll give Witcher 2 a try later today after I get some stuff done. I'll try and keep an open mind during the intro and all and at least get to 30 minutes or so of gameplay.
I 100% get what youíre saying because I feel the same way. The only difference is that Iíll still play a game anyway, if it has enough redeeming qualities.

But given the choice I do like to make my own character; set his/her appearance, play them how I want, set their class/profession/specialization/whatever.

I love Witcher 3 (and 2 was also good, I couldnít stand the first one) and you are definitely stepping in the shoes of a pre-made character. Youíre going along with a scripted story, though itís more of a Choose Your Own Adventure format than a novel, and youíre free to roam about and take on whatever challenges you like. And there is some limited character development/talent customization.

But given your previously-stated preferences, I think youíll be frustrated. Iím wondering if like me, you have a tabletop RPG background which means you want to make your character, not play someone elseís. I totally get that.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:12 PM
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Yeah, The Witcher 3 (but emphatically not either of the first two games) occupies a pretty unique place in this conversation. On the one hand, this is not Skyrim. You're stepping into a specific person's shoes and he has a history and established relationships. He looks like he looks, and other than some cursory beard-and-haircut alternatives you can't change it much. There are cutscenes, although other than the way overlong opening cutscene they're usually not overly intrusive.

BUT.

This is not God of War either. The world is large and organically connected. There are thousands of things to do, and nearly every one of them is scripted to force you to make choices. They're big choices, sometimes, even buried in seemingly small sidequests - choices that define who your Geralt is, morally and ethically, but also that can completely reshape the world and everyone in it. A choice you make in Act 1 can reverberate down through the entire playthrough, and then bounce off other choices you make so that the possible branches are myriad. And they're not superficially different branches.

The best way I can think of to put it is this: you and I could both play a game of Skyrim, and our characters would look very different and have different adventures, but at the end of the day we'd be having more or less the same experience, and the game world would be changed in more or less the same ways by our actions. If we both played Witcher 3, we'd be controlling the same dude the whole time, and there'd be certain kinds of limitations imposed by that. But our two playthroughs would be drastically different, as a function of the choices we made throughout.

It's two different kinds of "role playing," I think, and I like them both but I liked Witcher 3 more.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:59 PM
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What you like is, of course, subjective, but "open world" and "RPG" have objective definitions that don't match the way you're using them.
How am I using them? Tell me how I am wrong.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:03 PM
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I 100% get what youíre saying because I feel the same way. The only difference is that Iíll still play a game anyway, if it has enough redeeming qualities.
I try but so far I haven't found any that caught my fancy.

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But given the choice I do like to make my own character; set his/her appearance, play them how I want, set their class/profession/specialization/whatever.

I love Witcher 3 (and 2 was also good, I couldnít stand the first one) and you are definitely stepping in the shoes of a pre-made character. Youíre going along with a scripted story, though itís more of a Choose Your Own Adventure format than a novel, and youíre free to roam about and take on whatever challenges you like. And there is some limited character development/talent customization.

But given your previously-stated preferences, I think youíll be frustrated. Iím wondering if like me, you have a tabletop RPG background which means you want to make your character, not play someone elseís. I totally get that.
Yes, I started playing D&D a little over 40 years ago.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:09 PM
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Can you give an example of a game you consider to be an Open World RPG?
I thought EverQuest was excellent. World of Warcraft is no longer excellent but is still quite functional (I have extensive experience with Wow; most of our threads on each WoW expansion were begun by me). I've played Elder Scrolls Online for 190 hours (I just checked) and enjoyed that but thought it had a ton of shortcomings.

I would consider all of those good open world RPGs.

ETA: Warhammer Online was an RPG but was not open world, if anyone else played that (it wasn't a good game).

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Old 06-11-2019, 09:40 PM
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How am I using them? Tell me how I am wrong.
The classic definition of RPG, derived from table top games, is a game where you assume a character, and interact with other players or the environment as that character. This can be either a character you created from scratch, or a pregenerated character put together by the Game Master. In an earlier post, you tried to distinguish between role-playing and play-acting, but there's no distinction there. Role-playing is play-acting.

The other thing that RPGs introduced around this time was the concept of "leveling up," where the more you played a specific character, the more powerful that character became.

When they started making RPGs for computers, it was really, really hard to code complex interpersonal interactions. But it was relatively easy to write systems where characters became more powerful as the game progressed, so early RPGs focused instead on the leveling up aspect. In those early RPGs, your characters usually had no personality at all, and nothing you did could really affect how the story unfolded. Player choice mattered in terms of figuring out combat tactics and optimal build strategies, but the game would always end with The Heroes fighting the Evil Dragon and saving Fantasylandia, or whatever.

By the 90s, that started changing. Games like Baldur's Gate started including complicated, branching dialogue trees where your responses could effect how the plot proceeded. The player was given some agency in determining what sort of person his character was, and that personality mattered. This was much closer to the original meaning of "RPG" - you could say, "My role in this playthrough is an honorable paladin, my role in the next playthrough will be an evil wizard," and the experience of playing the game would be noticeably different in each playthrough.

"Open world" simply means that the game allows you to go to (almost) any part of the setting whenever you want, instead of presenting content in a linear series of stages.

The Witcher 3 is widely held to be one of the best open world RPGs ever made. I'm personally not that big a fan of it - while the writing and world-building are top-notch, I really struggle with the combat system, making the experience more frustrating than anything else. But whether or not it's an RPG or open-world really is not a matter of opinion. If you say you don't think it's an RPG, people are going to look at you funny. Like this:
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:07 PM
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In what is a vaguely humorous name now, the 2nd edition of the pen and paper game was called Cyperpunk 2020. (The 1st edition I believe was just called Cyperpunk and was set in 2013.) It was published by R Talsorian Games. Not sure if theyíre still going or not.
yep and they even own the rights to the witcher tabletop rpg which is probably tied in with making cyberpunk 77


heres their catalog https://talsorianstore.com/
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:28 AM
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This might be my favorite bit of news so far:
You can finish Cyberpunk 2077 without killing anyone

I really enjoyed the Deus Ex games, in particular the fact that you could play them almost or entirely non-lethally. It makes the game harder but more satisfying, IMO.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:57 AM
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The classic definition of RPG, derived from table top games, is a game where you assume a character, and interact with other players or the environment as that character. This can be either a character you created from scratch, or a pregenerated character put together by the Game Master. In an earlier post, you tried to distinguish between role-playing and play-acting, but there's no distinction there. Role-playing is play-acting.

The other thing that RPGs introduced around this time was the concept of "leveling up," where the more you played a specific character, the more powerful that character became.

When they started making RPGs for computers, it was really, really hard to code complex interpersonal interactions. But it was relatively easy to write systems where characters became more powerful as the game progressed, so early RPGs focused instead on the leveling up aspect. In those early RPGs, your characters usually had no personality at all, and nothing you did could really affect how the story unfolded. Player choice mattered in terms of figuring out combat tactics and optimal build strategies, but the game would always end with The Heroes fighting the Evil Dragon and saving Fantasylandia, or whatever.

By the 90s, that started changing. Games like Baldur's Gate started including complicated, branching dialogue trees where your responses could effect how the plot proceeded. The player was given some agency in determining what sort of person his character was, and that personality mattered. This was much closer to the original meaning of "RPG" - you could say, "My role in this playthrough is an honorable paladin, my role in the next playthrough will be an evil wizard," and the experience of playing the game would be noticeably different in each playthrough.

"Open world" simply means that the game allows you to go to (almost) any part of the setting whenever you want, instead of presenting content in a linear series of stages.

The Witcher 3 is widely held to be one of the best open world RPGs ever made. I'm personally not that big a fan of it - while the writing and world-building are top-notch, I really struggle with the combat system, making the experience more frustrating than anything else. But whether or not it's an RPG or open-world really is not a matter of opinion. If you say you don't think it's an RPG, people are going to look at you funny. Like this:
Obviously there are different kinds of "role-playing", but in the context of gaming, part of "role-playing", for me, is the fact that you play a role in a group. "Healer", "warrior", "scout", etc. Without that aspect, it's just playing. You have no role in a group, providing a crucial aspect necessary for the group to achieve goals: you're just a solo adventurer. A solo RPG? So Mario Galaxy was an RPG? Banjo-Kazooie was an RPG?

There's enough aspects to what an RPG is tho, that it prolly could be talked about at length in a separate thread.

So when you finish or achieve the main goal in Witcher games, what do you do? Is the game just over? Like, cut scene and roll credits?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-12-2019 at 08:58 AM.
  #41  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:31 AM
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I thought EverQuest was excellent. World of Warcraft is no longer excellent but is still quite functional (I have extensive experience with Wow; most of our threads on each WoW expansion were begun by me). I've played Elder Scrolls Online for 190 hours (I just checked) and enjoyed that but thought it had a ton of shortcomings.

I would consider all of those good open world RPGs.

ETA: Warhammer Online was an RPG but was not open world, if anyone else played that (it wasn't a good game).
All of these are MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games). The Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077 are single-player CRPGs. They're completely different genre's, mainly due to MMOs having to account for thousands of users being connected simultaneously to the same server and therefore having to simplify various aspects of both gameplay and narrative while also relying (to various degrees) on various forms of emergent gameplay.
  #42  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Obviously there are different kinds of "role-playing", but in the context of gaming, part of "role-playing", for me, is the fact that you play a role in a group. "Healer", "warrior", "scout", etc. Without that aspect, it's just playing. You have no role in a group, providing a crucial aspect necessary for the group to achieve goals: you're just a solo adventurer. A solo RPG? So Mario Galaxy was an RPG? Banjo-Kazooie was an RPG?
That doesn't match any definition of roleplaying game I've ever heard before, and I've been playing D&D almost as long as you have (since 1984, to be exact). Roleplaying, to me, has always been about becoming the character - not just moving him around like a piece of on the board, but entering his head, thinking like him. Being him. RPGs, essentially, are games of empathy. The actions I take in an adventure are not actions that I would do, but rather actions the character would do. That's roleplaying. It doesn't matter if I'm alone or with other people, although obviously in tabletop situations, it's more fun playing off other party members.

I've also played plenty of single-class parties. Why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post

There's enough aspects to what an RPG is tho, that it prolly could be talked about at length in a separate thread.

So when you finish or achieve the main goal in Witcher games, what do you do? Is the game just over? Like, cut scene and roll credits?
In 1 and 2, yes. In 3, you have a a bunch of huge maps to explore full of sidequests to finish, and you can keep on playing until you've covered every corner of them. After that... I suppose you play something else? It's not D&D; it's a game, not a lifestyle.

Last edited by Alessan; 06-12-2019 at 09:39 AM.
  #43  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Obviously there are different kinds of "role-playing", but in the context of gaming, part of "role-playing", for me, is the fact that you play a role in a group. "Healer", "warrior", "scout", etc. Without that aspect, it's just playing. You have no role in a group, providing a crucial aspect necessary for the group to achieve goals: you're just a solo adventurer. A solo RPG? So Mario Galaxy was an RPG? Banjo-Kazooie was an RPG?
No, the "role" in "role-playing" is like a role in a movie or play. It refers to playing a character, not tactics.

I haven't played Mario Galaxy or Banjo-Kazooie. Reading the wikipedia entry on them, neither seems to fulfill any of the criteria I used to define an RPG. However, Mario Galaxy had co-operative multiplayer, and Banjo-Kazooie apparently refers to two different characters that the player controls for the whole game, so apparently they are RPGs under your definition?
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:59 AM
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Im sorry, I thought I was clear that IMO any further discussion of "what is an RPG" should be made in a separate thread; it is hijacking this one unnecessarily.
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