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  #51  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kanicbird View Post
And I assume from this post is that's what is bothering you?

Given this my suggestion would be to find out what is a 'friend' and see if your current friends fit that definition. Now how about to find out what is a friend, that is your journey and if you wish to explore it. In that I can give my own experience.

I thought I knew what a friend was, and thought I had friends. I undertook a long journey/pilgrimage and found out in short that friends don't leave one lonely, it is a continuous knowing that they are there and you are in their hearts, and that ends loneliness. There is a synergy also that the times you get together is mutually positive with positive after effects, not a longing for more, nor not a demand to be seen. We tend to focus on the wrong people when we count our friends.
I have a solid grasp on what real friends are, rather my issue is that pursuing them is viewed as unhealthy. The same way that Buddhism (in a sense) view imagination as wrong and not living in reality. Like different things mean something to me and when I listen to music I get transported or start painting things in my head. But Buddhism would have me think that such things are wrong and you are living in delusion.

Personally it sounds like “delusion” might be a happier place to be.
  #52  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:40 PM
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I have a solid grasp on what real friends are, rather my issue is that pursuing them is viewed as unhealthy. The same way that Buddhism (in a sense) view imagination as wrong and not living in reality. Like different things mean something to me and when I listen to music I get transported or start painting things in my head. But Buddhism would have me think that such things are wrong and you are living in delusion.

Personally it sounds like “delusion” might be a happier place to be.
The consistent theme I get from Buddhism (in my slight glimpses of it, which mostly come from threads involving you) is fear. They seem to be scared of everything, and approach the world as though it's fraught with constant peril. Anything that seems to be good is transient and may be ripped away from you at any time.

Starting from that standpoint, they seem to then advocate a mindset where you care about literally nothing. You seem to be allowed to take what pleasure you may, maybe, but only if it's momentary, reactive pleasure. Becoming attached to things is bad, because things can be ripped away at any moment in this horrible terrifying scary world we live in. Friends? One car crash and they're a red smear. Better to have not loved at all than to have loved and lost - so erase your longing of friends. Erase your longing for anything. Become zen. Become apathetic. Crave nothing, because the world sucks and you're not going to get it anyway. Or if you do get it all you're going to do is worry about eventually losing it because the world is scary dangerous, so so scary scary.

This gibbering drooling nonsense about reality not being real is just a woo attempt to justify this fearful avoidance of attachment by claiming that you're not avoiding attachment because of fear, you're avoiding attachment because reality is a hallucination. Which is dumb when a solipsist says it and it's dumb when Buddhists say it. For the same reasons - reality is way too constant to be imaginary. Statements that reality isn't real are flat wrong, and anybody who claims otherwise is full of crap.

Last edited by begbert2; 05-13-2019 at 06:41 PM. Reason: typos are scary
  #53  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:52 PM
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You certainly seem to have plenty of delusions about what Buddhism says. (eta mean for post #51, not #52.)

Last edited by Darren Garrison; 05-13-2019 at 06:53 PM.
  #54  
Old 05-13-2019, 07:27 PM
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If someone wants to understand what Buddhism is in essence about, one can read some of the early Buddhist texts or at least a biography of the Buddha, and not get stressed out over the dozens of schools of Buddhism and their metaphysical arguments (either the actual ones or as imagined by random Internet posters) about philosophical realism versus nominalism.
  #55  
Old 05-13-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
I have a solid grasp on what real friends are, rather my issue is that pursuing them is viewed as unhealthy. The same way that Buddhism (in a sense) view imagination as wrong and not living in reality. Like different things mean something to me and when I listen to music I get transported or start painting things in my head. But Buddhism would have me think that such things are wrong and you are living in delusion.



Personally it sounds like “delusion” might be a happier place to be.
That is totally, incorrect.
Just because the physical world is a veil covering the deeper reality, and we are all sharing this illusion does not make it "wrong" or "delusional."

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  #56  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:39 PM
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That is totally, incorrect.
Just because the physical world is a veil covering the deeper reality, and we are all sharing this illusion does not make it "wrong" or "delusional."

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That doesn’t really help me out. In fact it’s things like that which keep me from letting go. It’s like just when I’m over it stuff like that, and koans, pull me back. That if I don’t listen them then I’m choosing to live life on autopilot.
  #57  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:41 PM
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You certainly seem to have plenty of delusions about what Buddhism says. (eta mean for post #51, not #52.)
If there are any I would like to know. I’d just like to get through one day without feeling like I’m doing something “wrong”.
  #58  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:09 PM
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If there are any I would like to know. I’d just like to get through one day without feeling like I’m doing something “wrong”.

Well, I'm no Buddhist scholar but I strongly doubt that they teaching that "imagination as wrong and not living in reality", that "such things are wrong and you are living in delusion." Show me Buddhists saying that nobody should imagine anything or enjoy anything.
  #59  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:18 PM
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Thing is that the guy I usually see (like over 4 years) I can’t afford, and I’m not sure about starting from square 1. Last time I talked to one I could afford he was pretty bad.
That's a sucky situation, and I'm sorry that you wound up talking to a therapist you didn't like.

The advice stays the same -- you're clearly profoundly unhappy, and obsessing over religious and philosophical things. Continuing to post about those things here, and picking apart the attempts of people here who try to talk you through things, is highly unlikely to help you at all.

If the last therapist didn't do anything for you, find a different one. What you're looking for isn't something that message board discussions are going to help. For that matter, it seems unlikely that you're going to find the answers from religion (especially since you seem to be convinced that there must be *one* religion out there that's "correct," and you're doomed if you pick wrong). GET PROFESSIONAL HELP.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 05-13-2019 at 10:18 PM.
  #60  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:21 PM
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Machinaforce: what is it you want?

No, really. Broad strokes, here: just describe, in general terms, what you think it’d be like if you (a) found enlightenment or whatever, and then (b) just got on with the rest of your life, as someone who now knows what’s what.

What would success look like?
  #61  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Machinaforce: what is it you want?

No, really. Broad strokes, here: just describe, in general terms, what you think it’d be like if you (a) found enlightenment or whatever, and then (b) just got on with the rest of your life, as someone who now knows what’s what.

What would success look like?
I don't know. I'm just doing this because it seems like the right answer, not really because I want to. I don't want to be wrong so it feels like this is the only choice I have. It's so bad that I feel like I need to know what Buddhism thinks about any topic: loneliness, love, job, aspergers, etc. It just feels like I have no opinion
  #62  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:23 PM
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Well, I'm no Buddhist scholar but I strongly doubt that they teaching that "imagination as wrong and not living in reality", that "such things are wrong and you are living in delusion." Show me Buddhists saying that nobody should imagine anything or enjoy anything.
Pretty much any monk (at least the ones I have spoken with at some Buddhist centers) and most who write in articles or publications centered around Buddhism (Lions Roar, Tricycle, etc).
  #63  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:26 PM
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I don't know. I'm just doing this because it seems like the right answer, not really because I want to. I don't want to be wrong so it feels like this is the only choice I have. It's so bad that I feel like I need to know what Buddhism thinks about any topic: loneliness, love, job, aspergers, etc.
But why? What’s the next step?

Say you do find out what Buddhism thinks about this or that topic; and, having done that, you would then — what? How would your life then be different?

Last edited by The Other Waldo Pepper; 05-13-2019 at 11:26 PM.
  #64  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Pretty much any monk (at least the ones I have spoken with at some Buddhist centers) and most who write in articles or publications centered around Buddhism (Lions Roar, Tricycle, etc).
Care to cite one of these publications saying "don't imagine anything or enjoy anything"?

Because stuff like this is literally the first article I found on Lion's Roar, and that has 3 practitioners saying exactly the opposite.

Last edited by MrDibble; 05-14-2019 at 12:42 AM.
  #65  
Old 05-14-2019, 01:35 AM
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You know, it's possible to study what Buddhists believe, without actually believing it yourself.

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  #66  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:41 AM
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I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing.
Then you have not truly given yourself permission. It is not Buddhism that's enslaving you, it's you.
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  #67  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:06 AM
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I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing.
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If there are any I would like to know. I’d just like to get through one day without feeling like I’m doing something “wrong”.
The best advice you are ever going to get along these lines was penned ~420 years ago by one William Shakespeare:
Quote:
To thine own self be true
So long as you are content with your choices around spiritual beliefs (or any other non-provable beliefs), "right" and "wrong" don't really enter into the equation. They can't because there is no objective right or wrong in sprituality. Go with what gives you comfort, period.

Last edited by Doctor Jackson; 05-14-2019 at 08:06 AM.
  #68  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:39 AM
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Yes, there's a reason I specifically mentioned strawberries.

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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
And yet on that same page:

"It amazes me how often I’ve seen the word “is” throughtout this site. Nothing “is”. Things resemble, apeear, or have some qualities of other things, but no thing “IS” another thing. Most grown adults know what “is” means, so most grown adults lie incessantly everyday. “The sky IS blue. The air IS cold. That man IS ugly.” Lies.

Not mistakes, not semantic differences, but mere lies."

"My understanding of koans was that they are meant to break your reliance on language, because the concepts they confer cannot be communicated with language. Sort of fighting fire with fire. So there really shouldn’t be written interpretations…"

Which really just adds to my issues with Buddhism.
C'mon, man - you know it's always a bad idea to read internet comment sections.
  #69  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:48 AM
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Yes, there's a reason I specifically mentioned strawberries.
This is what I tend to think about when someone brings up strawberries.
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Ah, but the strawberries, that's, that's where I had them, they laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the ward room icebox did exist, and I've had produced that key if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer.
  #70  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:15 AM
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Care to cite one of these publications saying "don't imagine anything or enjoy anything"?

Because stuff like this is literally the first article I found on Lion's Roar, and that has 3 practitioners saying exactly the opposite.
They actually don’t say the opposite since they don’t really reference imagination at all. One talks about the middle way between ultimate truth and mundane in which he says there are no mountains and rivers, so in essence the “correct” answer is that there is nothing.

It’s similar to this: https://www.lionsroar.com/six-kinds-of-loneliness/

About not having a reference point. I find it confusing how they talk about virtue and good when not being biased or attached is part of their teachings.

But I can say for sure there are plenty of articles on those publications that deride imagination as choosing to be unconscious and living in illusion. One of the authors on that link you provided even said that it’s about training one not to get lost in the mind and that’s what imagination entails at times.
  #71  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:17 AM
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The best advice you are ever going to get along these lines was penned ~420 years ago by one William Shakespeare:


So long as you are content with your choices around spiritual beliefs (or any other non-provable beliefs), "right" and "wrong" don't really enter into the equation. They can't because there is no objective right or wrong in sprituality. Go with what gives you comfort, period.
I would love to go with Shakespeare, I love his tragedies. But there is no self to be true to, according to Buddhism that is.
  #72  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:32 AM
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The self is provable by observation. As in, even if you are deceived up the yin-yang, you still are observing reality from a perspective. Cogito ergo sum, yo - the one thing you can always be certain of, that even the most hardline skeptic can't honestly deny, is that one's self exists in one form or another - and that it is individually conscious.

Anybody who denies that the self exists is thus disproven before they even get out of the gate.

So yeah, you exist. Period.



(...Okay, so technically I can only be certain I exist, but that's still enough to disprove any mythos where selves don't exist.)
  #73  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:28 PM
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They actually don’t say the opposite since they don’t really reference imagination at all.
What do you think a sentence like
From that perspective, “to rest in nonconceptual, open, ‘don’t know’ mind” isn’t so much to stop or transcend thinking as to simply let thoughts be “just thoughts” and to know that the mind is doing its thing. Thinking is simply what the mind does, in the same way that ears hear and eyes see.
is about?
Quote:
One talks about the middle way between ultimate truth and mundane in which he says there are no mountains and rivers, so in essence the “correct” answer is that there is nothing.
Ermm, did you miss the end of that lesson?
After enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters are waters.
That's the exact opposite of nothing.
I'm not even going to bother reading that link, as going by your reading of that first article, I'm sure you've misinterpreted what it says.
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But I can say for sure there are plenty of articles on those publications that deride imagination as choosing to be unconscious and living in illusion.
Then cite one that explicitly says that. Quote from it, where it says that.
  #74  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:15 PM
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Buddhism is inherently going to be tricky for anyone not brought up with it to properly understand. It deals with some fairly high level concepts. It has its own unique terminology. There may be some clouding from the distance through time to its origin and the diffusion into different branches. And it has undergone sometimes multiple translations.

You shouldn't expect it to be easy, or to feel bad if you don't get it. But you should at least allow for the possibility that if its expressed main goal is to extinguish suffering, and instead you find it is increasing your suffering, that maybe you don't understand it.

Also, while it is certainly possible to benefit from reading about Buddhism, to get the most out of it, and more importantly, avoid common and potentially dangerous errors, it is better to be a part of a community (Sangha). You could say the same about almost any discipline.

Separately, while your angst might have been triggered by topics Buddhism touches on, those issues would exist regardless and you may want to address them on their own terms. You can have a discussion about whether joy is compatible with detachment without having to reference Buddhism.

If this remains an ongoing chronic frustration for you, you probably would benefit from a face to face addressing of it.

Last edited by jackdavinci; 05-14-2019 at 03:20 PM.
  #75  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:53 PM
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What do you think a sentence like
From that perspective, “to rest in nonconceptual, open, ‘don’t know’ mind” isn’t so much to stop or transcend thinking as to simply let thoughts be “just thoughts” and to know that the mind is doing its thing. Thinking is simply what the mind does, in the same way that ears hear and eyes see.
is about?

Ermm, did you miss the end of that lesson?
After enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters are waters.
That's the exact opposite of nothing.

I'm not even going to bother reading that link, as going by your reading of that first article, I'm sure you've misinterpreted what it says.

Then cite one that explicitly says that. Quote from it, where it says that.
The one that I linked. And you missed the point about the ULTIMATE truth being that nothing exists. It’s not the opposite of nothing. When they say enlightenment it’s when you realize what the capital T is.

As for letting the mind do it’s thing that’s pretty much avoiding imagination since imagination is about going where it takes you and getting lost in it.
  #76  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:15 PM
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I would love to go with Shakespeare, I love his tragedies. But there is no self to be true to, according to Buddhism that is.
Hmm, then you are screwed. So Sorry.

Last edited by Doctor Jackson; 05-14-2019 at 04:18 PM.
  #77  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:17 PM
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The one that I linked.
Then quote where it says that.

Quote it.

I say again, give an actual quote.
Quote:
And you missed the point about the ULTIMATE truth being that nothing exists.
It does NOT say that anywhere in that article.

The closest statement, the only one using the words "nothing exists", is :
. That is, we start to understand that nothing exists on its own; all things exist in relation to all other things.
Which isn't remotely the same as what you're spouting.
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As for letting the mind do it’s thing that’s pretty much avoiding imagination since imagination is about going where it takes you and getting lost in it.
No. That's daydreaming. Imagination is "the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses." That's it. And that's exactly what that earlier quote was about.

I think part of your problem is that you use made-up definitions of words and then expect others to understand you.

Last edited by MrDibble; 05-14-2019 at 04:19 PM.
  #78  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:56 PM
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Buddhism is inherently going to be tricky for anyone not brought up with it to properly understand. It deals with some fairly high level concepts. It has its own unique terminology. There may be some clouding from the distance through time to its origin and the diffusion into different branches. And it has undergone sometimes multiple translations.

You shouldn't expect it to be easy, or to feel bad if you don't get it. But you should at least allow for the possibility that if its expressed main goal is to extinguish suffering, and instead you find it is increasing your suffering, that maybe you don't understand it.

Also, while it is certainly possible to benefit from reading about Buddhism, to get the most out of it, and more importantly, avoid common and potentially dangerous errors, it is better to be a part of a community (Sangha). You could say the same about almost any discipline.

Separately, while your angst might have been triggered by topics Buddhism touches on, those issues would exist regardless and you may want to address them on their own terms. You can have a discussion about whether joy is compatible with detachment without having to reference Buddhism.

If this remains an ongoing chronic frustration for you, you probably would benefit from a face to face addressing of it.
They said that thing don’t exist, and that all there really is is consciousness, and that you are alone. Not exactly things that alleviate suffering. Personal I would like to think that it only relieves it if you stick at the base level.

I mean someone earlier in this thread said that physical reality was just a veil. How am I supposed to respond to that? Seems like it’s just good for an existential crisis.
  #79  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:59 PM
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I mean someone earlier in this thread said that physical reality was just a veil. How am I supposed to respond to that? Seems like it’s just good for an existential crisis.
Underline added. How about responding with a shrug and a chuckle? Just like you would if someone told you Jesus was the son of God, born to a virgin, who ascended up to heaven after being crucified. People believe weird shit, but you don't have to let it get you down.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:00 PM
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Then quote where it says that.

Quote it.

I say again, give an actual quote.

It does NOT say that anywhere in that article.

The closest statement, the only one using the words "nothing exists", is :
. That is, we start to understand that nothing exists on its own; all things exist in relation to all other things.
Which isn't remotely the same as what you're spouting.

No. That's daydreaming. Imagination is "the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses." That's it. And that's exactly what that earlier quote was about.

I think part of your problem is that you use made-up definitions of words and then expect others to understand you.
It did say it when it said there are no rocks or rivers
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:14 PM
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Underline added. How about responding with a shrug and a chuckle? Just like you would if someone told you Jesus was the son of God, born to a virgin, who ascended up to heaven after being crucified. People believe weird shit, but you don't have to let it get you down.
I don’t know. They said they can type up long explanations of spiritual teachings that explain it.
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:16 PM
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I mean to be honest the biggest headache to me is that the main teaching in Buddhism or Hinduism is that this world isn’t rea/is an illusion/ a dream/ doesn’t exist and that consciousness is all there is.
  #83  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:41 PM
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It is a steaming pile of horseshit. Ignore it. 50,000,000 Elvis fans can be wrong.

Last edited by Darren Garrison; 05-14-2019 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Ignire isn't a word.
  #84  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:35 AM
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It did say it when it said there are no rocks or rivers
It does not say that, anywhere in the article.


Just to be clear to everyone else getting involved in this pointless discussion with you, who may not have followed the link, and thought you were actually quoting something it said: the words "rock" and "river" do not even occur, anywhere in the article.

Just to be safe, I checked the words "stone", "pebble" and "stream" ,on the assumption Machinaforce also doesn't understand the meaning of the word "quote". They don't occur, either. There is a reference to "mountains" and "waters", but I've already shown above where Machinaforce selectively interpreted there, and left out the actual conclusion that author arrives at, which is the exact opposite of "mountains and water don't exist".
  #85  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:47 AM
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I’ll try to let it go. Try to not listen to the fear.

Because from my personal view, and not the fear, these spiritual teachings they use as proof seem more like anecdotes and not real data. Someone cited a Course in Miracles, which made be scratch my head.

But I’ll try. But the fear is hard to move past.
  #86  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:14 AM
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I feel you bro. Fear is indeed the mind-killer.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:32 PM
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I feel you bro. Fear is indeed the mind-killer.
Homer Simpson said alcohol was the mind-killer.

Which is it then?
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  #88  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:33 PM
Shodan is offline
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It amazes me how often I’ve seen the word “is” throughtout this site. Nothing “is”. Things resemble, apeear, or have some qualities of other things, but no thing “IS” another thing. Most grown adults know what “is” means, so most grown adults lie incessantly everyday. “The sky IS blue. The air IS cold. That man IS ugly.” Lies.
Is it also a lie to say that "reality IS illusion"?
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They said that thing don’t exist, and that all there really is is consciousness, and that you are alone.
Things do exist. We know that, because things outside consciousness impact us and we can't control them.

Sure, images exist in our minds, and they correspond to external realities to a greater or lesser degree, and the images aren't the same thing as reality. But the disparity doesn't show that reality doesn't exist.

Objects unsupported fall towards the earth's center, because gravity is not just a veil. That's true whether anyone is conscious of it or not. That's why stars shine - because gravity compresses large balls of hydrogen together hard enough to fuse into helium. And that happened long before you or I were aware of it. The light that hits the earth was emitted about eight minutes ago, and the photons took hundreds of thousands of years to work their way from the sun's core to the outside. All that happened before anyone was aware of it.

When the tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it does make a sound.

Regards,
Shodan
  #89  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:34 PM
Machinaforce is offline
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Homer Simpson said alcohol was the mind-killer.

Which is it then?
Fear for sure. It’s hard to reason out of since you think there is logic to it based on how you feel. No matter how reasoned and well thought my argument is the fear doesn’t care. It’s not the first time my reasonable mind loses to fear. It’s a powerful primal emotion.
  #90  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Fear for sure. It’s hard to reason out of since you think there is logic to it based on how you feel. No matter how reasoned and well thought my argument is the fear doesn’t care. It’s not the first time my reasonable mind loses to fear. It’s a powerful primal emotion.
Jokes aside, my initial post in this thread, similar to my other posts in your threads, still applies -- I hope you are seeking and getting the professional help you need to deal with these feelings and unhealthy thought patterns. You seem intelligent. Be a shame to waste an inquisitive mind like yours on pointless obsessive thoughts and fears.
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  #91  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Jokes aside, my initial post in this thread, similar to my other posts in your threads, still applies -- I hope you are seeking and getting the professional help you need to deal with these feelings and unhealthy thought patterns. You seem intelligent. Be a shame to waste an inquisitive mind like yours on pointless obsessive thoughts and fears.
Curiosity is a burden and interesting for me. It’s just that I get stuck on stuff that scares me like “this world is an illusion” or “nothing that changes or appears is real”. Not only does it make no sense at all to me but the fact that someone said or believes it drives me made because I want to know what they know.

The sad thing is that in the face of such “big” questions, nothing else matters (at least to my mind) because if this isn’t real or is an illusion then there’s no point in doing anything or learning anything about a false world.

I had a problem before with solipsism but got over it, yet now I read and see actual people saying it so this time it’s harder. It’s not like arguing for god, for some reason this is harder to ignore. It’s like I can’t enjoy anything without the thought interrupting my mind with (this isn’t real or “this world is an illusion”). It’s even beginning to feel like it is, but that’s more like my imagination

Last edited by Machinaforce; 05-15-2019 at 05:44 PM.
  #92  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:58 PM
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Machinaforce, Nava was right: the problem isn't with Buddhism. It's not even with pseudo-Buddhism. It's within you. You're seeing everything through this distorting filter your mind has created. Your inability to let go, your admitted fear and unhappiness are all you; therefore, you won't find the answer in Buddhism or any pseudo-Buddhist site.

I've read and/or participated in some of your previous threads, and they're all variations on this same theme. This has gone on long enough. If you can't afford a therapist, many offer sliding payment scales. Some therapists have a background in Buddhism; I think that'd be ideal for you. And giving up on therapists because one was bad is like giving up on marriage because one blind date went sour.

Get help.
  #93  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:08 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Curiosity is a burden and interesting for me. It’s just that I get stuck on stuff that scares me like “this world is an illusion” or “nothing that changes or appears is real”. Not only does it make no sense at all to me but the fact that someone said or believes it drives me made because I want to know what they know.
Someone said it, and so that drives you mad and gets you stuck? If I say I have a magic sword and therefore can tell you to stop obsessing over this stuff, can I thereby get a big fine thankful dose of full and unwavering focus from you?

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The sad thing is that in the face of such “big” questions, nothing else matters (at least to my mind) because if this isn’t real or is an illusion then there’s no point in doing anything or learning anything about a false world.
Why not? If (a) everything you experience is, uh, “illusion” or “a false world”, and (b) you can get to some non-illusory real world where you’d totally get to live out some kind of decidedly different experiences, then, well, okay, I guess; but if all of this is all there is to experience, then calling it “illusion” or “a false world” doesn’t really mean anything, does it? If there’s no other reality, if this is the only reality there is, then isn’t this realm exactly as wonderful as the non-illusory real one you’d be pining for?
  #94  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:46 PM
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The Other Waldo Pepper has a point - the only reason to dismiss an "illusory" world is if the world is unstable and likely to end at any time. Consider the most common of illusory worlds: fiction. If any book you read had a high chance of suddenly turning blank you wouldn't bother reading. If your television was prone to suddenly shutting off at any moment you wouldn't watch TV. But this isn't the case; the illusory worlds in question stick around long enough for you to get everything out of them that they have to offer, so it's worth paying attention. Even though you know they're all completely made up and full of lies, the experience is still fun and fulfilling and worth your time, because you know it's going to last long enough for the experience to be worth it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in your contested understanding of the Buddhist model, the world isn't getting any less real over time. However real it is now is how real it's going to stay for the foreseeable future. Even if it actually is merely a giant virtual reality game, well, it's one that you'll be playing for years to come so you might as well play it. And it's a massively multiplayer game too - so you might as well get to know the other players, and spend time with them if playing the game (that is, living life) is more fun when done together.

Again, to reiterate: Unreality is only a problem if it means reality might get yanked out from under you, rendering your time spent on it wasted. By all accounts getting outside of reality the Buddhist way isn't something that's going to happen by accident, so don't worry about it! Play the game, earn lots of happiness points, avoid hunger, debt, and homelessness hazards, and just have fun!
  #95  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:49 PM
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You should get your life advice from things that people have said in 1980s sitcom theme songs.:

The world don't move from the beat of just one drum--what might be right for you might not be right for some.

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life.

According to our new arrival life is more than mere survival--we just might live the good life yet.

Don’t waste another minute on your cryin’.

They will tell you you can't sleep alone in a strange place. Then they'll tell you you can't sleep with somebody else. But sooner or later you sleep in your own space. Either way it's okay you wake up with yourself.

There’s a path you take and a path untaken the choice is up to you my friend.




These lyrics writers have no less insight into the nature of humanity than Buddhist scholars. So if something they say disturbs you, tell it "Yo, Holmes, smell you later!".

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  #96  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
The Other Waldo Pepper has a point - the only reason to dismiss an "illusory" world is if the world is unstable and likely to end at any time. Consider the most common of illusory worlds: fiction. If any book you read had a high chance of suddenly turning blank you wouldn't bother reading. If your television was prone to suddenly shutting off at any moment you wouldn't watch TV. But this isn't the case; the illusory worlds in question stick around long enough for you to get everything out of them that they have to offer, so it's worth paying attention. Even though you know they're all completely made up and full of lies, the experience is still fun and fulfilling and worth your time, because you know it's going to last long enough for the experience to be worth it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in your contested understanding of the Buddhist model, the world isn't getting any less real over time. However real it is now is how real it's going to stay for the foreseeable future. Even if it actually is merely a giant virtual reality game, well, it's one that you'll be playing for years to come so you might as well play it. And it's a massively multiplayer game too - so you might as well get to know the other players, and spend time with them if playing the game (that is, living life) is more fun when done together.

Again, to reiterate: Unreality is only a problem if it means reality might get yanked out from under you, rendering your time spent on it wasted. By all accounts getting outside of reality the Buddhist way isn't something that's going to happen by accident, so don't worry about it! Play the game, earn lots of happiness points, avoid hunger, debt, and homelessness hazards, and just have fun!
Unfortunately someone tried that game analogy with me when I struggled briefly with solipsism but it only made things worse. Seeing it as a game just trivializes everything I do. It would still mean that I am living a lie as well. I guess that’s the part that gets me the most, that I am not correct and true and living a lie and all that I thought I knew wasn’t even right.
  #97  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Someone said it, and so that drives you mad and gets you stuck? If I say I have a magic sword and therefore can tell you to stop obsessing over this stuff, can I thereby get a big fine thankful dose of full and unwavering focus from you?



Why not? If (a) everything you experience is, uh, “illusion” or “a false world”, and (b) you can get to some non-illusory real world where you’d totally get to live out some kind of decidedly different experiences, then, well, okay, I guess; but if all of this is all there is to experience, then calling it “illusion” or “a false world” doesn’t really mean anything, does it? If there’s no other reality, if this is the only reality there is, then isn’t this realm exactly as wonderful as the non-illusory real one you’d be pining for?
Well I can easily dismiss a magic sword because there is no such thing. As for the nature of reality......
  #98  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:03 AM
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Look, if all that exists is in your consciousness, then those Buddhists and their teachings that you have been listenung to are not real. They are all in your imagination. And having an imagination is wrong, so stop imagining up Buddhism. Also, you are imagining this message board.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:48 AM
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Maybe you need to try another religion (a quick shudder at the thought of trying religion, but it is not a permanent commitment). The other posts have explained very well what Buddhism is, maybe your version of it is incomplete. Or you are going through the Buddhist version of the dark night of the soul, which is part of all religions.

I get the feeling that you are looking for a religion of some kind, and that's fine by me and everybody else. Perhaps you need to analyze what you are looking for? And, these days religion is increasingly becoming synhretic and not bound to any open version of a particular religion, or or indeed, of any one religion.
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Well I can easily dismiss a magic sword because there is no such thing.
Please elaborate: how can you so easily dismiss a magic sword? Because, see, you explained that your problem with stuff like “this world is an illusion” or “nothing that changes or appears is real” is just — as you put it — the fact that someone said it, which drives you mad. So how can you dismiss stuff like “magic swords are real” given, once again, the fact that someone said it?

Just lay out for me how you manage to get this right on some occasions, and maybe that’ll help you figure out how to can get it right on other occasions.

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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
As for the nature of reality......
Uh, yes? “As for the nature of reality”, dot dot dot, what?

Here I am, in a world of appearances — where there seem to be walls that it seems I can’t ghost through, but there seem to be doors and I seem able to open them; and that seems to prove useful when I seem to feel hunger, because I seem to make my way to what seems to be food, and it seems to taste delicious sure as it seems to work on what seems to be pain in my belly — and if someone told me all of that was an illusion, then, dot dot dot, what?

Will that info let me ghost through the walls, which aren’t really there? Will I learn of real doors I can really open, possibly to get real food that’ll really taste delicious? Or will I not really need food then, as I’ll know the seeming pain in my belly isn’t real? What do you think really happens if all of our experiences here are, for the sake of argument, revealed to be illusory appearances?
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