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  #201  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
His administration is not proposing that we "exclude non-citizens" from the census count or population totals.
Of course not, his administration is proposing that non-citizens exclude themselves from the census count and population totals by adding the fear of deportation to the census form.
  #202  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:58 PM
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The administration sure is going to great lengths to not provide information behind the totally innocuous rationale for adding this question then, huh? Can you provide some reasonable explanation for why they would invoke executive privilege to keep this completely innocent proposal under wraps?
Before we all run off into guessing games and gotcha traps, let's just lay out what was found on strategist Thomas Hofeller's hard drives. . If you don't know who Thomas Hofeller is, he is known as the "Michaelangelo of Gerrymandering" and he urged the Trump transition team to add the question to the census.
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Mr. Hofellerís exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps ďwould be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,Ē and would dilute the political power of the stateís Hispanics.

The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitutionís one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders.
  #203  
Old 06-12-2019, 04:29 PM
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There is nothing "practical" in advice to people to pick up and move so that your tender feelings are not hurt because they are protesting.
It is very practical. It changes their lives for the better while protesting makes it worse by devoting energy to things that do not bear fruit.

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It is (generally) easier nw, in the U.S. than in former times. I never demanded that there be no costs. (There are costs for protesting, as well.) The clear solution is to promote change, not run and hide.
That is not a solution for a minority. Especially if they are a part of a very small minority, political action is a nonstarter. A solution is to move and improve your life instantly.


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I am not claiming martyrdom; that is your straw man.
No the American liberal relies on othersí martyrdom to promote his agenda. Of course you will not martyr yourself.

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As to the Underground Railroad,that pretty clearly falls under my notation of who can or will move: that group being one that requires a move to escape persecution
Minorities require moves to escape predation if the majority isnít budging. It is in these instances I have made my recommendation for political migration that you as a liberal are arguing against (hi iiandyii are you reading this?)


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Although, it must be noted that the vast majority were lacking the facilities and support to employ moving. And both those fleeing slavery and those fleeing Naziism were physically restrained from doing so.
Right it was harder to move back then but still advisable. Precisely my point. It is easier now and you discourage political migration.

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However, not unexpectedly, you are changing the subject from those who are participating members of society seeking to improve their position in it (to whom you do not choose to listen) to a different class of people: those physically constrained to slavery of one sort or another.
More privilege. There are many who are restrained in prisons across the US.

It is impossible as a minority to overcome the majority in a democratic system. If you ever find yourself on the other side of majority privilege and are being preyed upon, I pray you will be practical and not martyr yourself.

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(I realize that in your world, paying taxes so that merchandise and people can employ roads for communication and trade along with requiring vaccinations to prevent the suffering and deaths of millions is a form of slavery, but the rest of us live in the real world and do not share your odd beliefs.)
The hypotheticals that weíre being discussed before your triggering are in an earlier post if you care to read.
  #204  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:08 PM
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Didnít I just read somewhere that leaked documents about the census question revealed the motivation was, pretty clearly stated, to be able to better jerrymander districts to political advantage.
  #205  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:33 PM
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The hypotheticals that weíre being discussed before your triggering are in an earlier post if you care to read.
I hate to break it to you, but you are living your life with the trigger taped in the "on" position. You can't seem to let a day go by without voicing some kind of fear that government is coming to take your freedoms and money.
  #206  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:48 PM
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I hate to break it to you, but you are living your life with the trigger taped in the "on" position. You can't seem to let a day go by without voicing some kind of fear that government is coming to take your freedoms and money.
I donít fear the expected and uncontrollable, but thanks for your concern.
  #207  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:55 PM
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elbows: You sure did! That's why Trump just invoked executive privilege in an effort to keep this information out of the congressional record. Because he's, you know, transparent. In his own lying words.
(As though the reason for the census question wasn't obvious enough to begin with.)

Last edited by bobot; 06-12-2019 at 07:56 PM.
  #208  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:14 PM
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I donít fear the expected and uncontrollable, but thanks for your concern.
I'm not concerned about you anymore than 9-11 truthers or gold bugs. You're just occasionally amusing background noise.
  #209  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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Stepping back a bit:
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Originally Posted by tomndebb View Post
So a person who had a homosexual orientation in previous years should simply avoid politics and make a change to their lifestyle to be happier?
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes they should move to an area where the society is accepting. They will have near zero impact getting involved with politics in an area where they are experiencing problems from the state.
Right, so those poor homosexuals should have simply moved to some imaginary (circa 1970) land where there would have been no repression. Those uppity homosexuals should know that there will never be any changes by the authors of the DSM, there will never be any changes to laws granting them more security in society, they will certainly never be permitted to marry. They should simply shut up and/or move because their "disruptive" practices upset Will.
Ah well.
  #210  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:38 PM
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https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hh...-refuse-lgbtq/
I'm not sure what current event to link, but the middle one's the confederate flag
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...nt/1410945001/
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AIUI, that bill means that physicians aren't required to do LGBT-related elective procedures (such as sex-change surgeries,) but they can't refuse to treat an LGBT patient for something that a non-LGBT patient would have needed. In other words, if an LGBT patient comes into the ER with a broken leg, they have to treat it since a broken leg is something everyone and anyone can get.
Velocity is correct.


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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
After a conservative murdered Heather Heyer by running her down with his vehicle, lawmakers in North Dakota, North Carolina, Florida, Tennessee and Texas proposed bills that would make it legal for drivers to kill protesters if they offered the defense "I didn't mean to."

How are we supposed to feel about people who want vehicular homicide legalized for their political opponents? Mere hatred seems a bit mild.
It's not wonder you hate your opponents when you mischaracterize the statements that are right in your cite. Nothing, and I mean nothing in these proposed laws makes it "legal for drivers to kill protesters" and has nothing at all to do with the Charlottesville murder as these laws would not apply.

The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It's amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it's your fault.

You don't get a pass by saying "I didn't mean to" anymore than you would in any other circumstance. If I see the guy standing in the street who has been sleeping with my wife and I hit him with my car, there will be an investigation to see if I deliberately hit him. Neither in this, nor any other potential crime, is the suspect's word taken as the end of the matter.

When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin.
  #211  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:07 AM
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The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It's amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it's your fault.
I would disagree. Part of the privilege of driving means you are always conscious of what is in the roadway. If someone jumps out in front of you, liability is appropriate. But if someone is standing in the road and gets hit, both of you should be cited and/or charged for jaywalking and negligence, respectively.

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You don't get a pass by saying "I didn't mean to" anymore than you would in any other circumstance. If I see the guy standing in the street who has been sleeping with my wife and I hit him with my car, there will be an investigation to see if I deliberately hit him. Neither in this, nor any other potential crime, is the suspect's word taken as the end of the matter.
But... now there exists the *potential* to take the suspect's word as the end of the matter. If he says "I didn't mean to" or "I didn't see them", the state now has the burden of determining his intent. And offenders know how what story they need to tell when questioned by police at the scene.

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When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin.
I am understanding these events as responses to protests. In this climate we saw right-wing media such as Fox and Daily Caller inciting their viewers to run over crowds of protesters. What was the red-state legislative response? Not to rein in hate groups. Not to respond to issues that caused protests in the first place. They responded by making it a little safer for drivers to hurt protesters.

You have to ignore a lot of context to believe there was no malice intended by these bills.
  #212  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:27 AM
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After a conservative murdered Heather Heyer by running her down with his vehicle, lawmakers in North Dakota, North Carolina, Florida, Tennessee and Texas proposed bills that would make it legal for drivers to kill protesters if they offered the defense "I didn't mean to."
The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It's amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it's your fault....
When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin.
Serious question, UltraVires ó Do you think it coincidence that five states operated by the Redneck party all passed this law after Heather Heyer was murdered?

I do not expect you to dare an answer, so I'll post my follow-up question now: Are you just auditioning for some Trumpist version of The Onion?
  #213  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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The administration sure is going to great lengths to not provide information behind the totally innocuous rationale for adding this question then, huh? Can you provide some reasonable explanation for why they would invoke executive privilege to keep this completely innocent proposal under wraps?
The context is that this administration is telling this House to go pound sand on every matter whatsoever.
  #214  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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Serious question, UltraVires ó Do you think it coincidence that five states operated by the Redneck party all passed this law after Heather Heyer was murdered?

I do not expect you to dare an answer, so I'll post my follow-up question now: Are you just auditioning for some Trumpist version of The Onion?
First, "redneck" in this context is somewhat slur-ish, not withstanding we have a self identified poster with the moniker.

Second, you need to dial back the personal shots.

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  #215  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:51 AM
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Stepping back a bit:Right, so those poor homosexuals should have simply moved to some imaginary (circa 1970) land where there would have been no repression. Those uppity homosexuals should know that there will never be any changes by the authors of the DSM, there will never be any changes to laws granting them more security in society, they will certainly never be permitted to marry. They should simply shut up and/or move because their "disruptive" practices upset Will.
Ah well.
No the victims should have moved to escape predation, not because it offends me. Sadly many stayed and became martyrs.

If they had moved and formed accepting communities, perhaps they would have changed local laws first and served as a beacon to similar oppressed individuals so that they too could escape predation. Oh shit thatís what actually happened? You donít say!
  #216  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:01 AM
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No the victims should have moved to escape predation, not because it offends me. Sadly many stayed and became martyrs.

If they had moved and formed accepting communities, perhaps they would have changed local laws first and served as a beacon to similar oppressed individuals so that they too could escape predation. Oh shit thatís what actually happened? You donít say!
So you can't imagine any circumstance under which populations that are being marginalized do not have the option to just pick up and move?
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  #217  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:03 AM
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So you can't imagine any circumstance under which populations that are being marginalized do not have the option to just pick up and move?
Yes I can imagine them they just donít apply to the hypotheticals posited earlier in the thread for which I gave my practical advice.

If you would like to conjure another hypothetical I will give practical advice on that situation as well.
  #218  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:13 AM
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No hypotheticals:
a) Muslims in Yugoslavia pre ethnic cleansing
b) Black slaves in America's south
c) Jews in Europe post 1933
d) Palestinians in Gaza
e) American Indians
f) Uyghurs in China
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  #219  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:30 AM
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No hypotheticals:
a) Muslims in Yugoslavia pre ethnic cleansing
b) Black slaves in America's south
c) Jews in Europe post 1933
d) Palestinians in Gaza
e) American Indians
f) Uyghurs in China
Ok pick one.

Then tell me how political action will improve the lives of the victims of state predation in that scenario. I will give my realpolitik advice.
  #220  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:35 AM
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No. You tell us how these people can pick up and move to avoid predation. Isn't that your solution? G'on then. Solve away.
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  #221  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:50 AM
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No. You tell us how these people can pick up and move to avoid predation. Isn't that your solution? G'on then. Solve away.
I havenít given my bespoke solution to any of them. Which one am I doing?

You also realize that I was offering a solution that performs better than political action at alleviating predation. I was not offering a solution that brings sunshine and rainbows. Would you still like to proceed?
  #222  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:54 AM
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I'm sure he has a bespoke solution for each one. I believe for black slaves in the South it's "Wait it out. Slavery can't last forever".

Eta: lol, that was a simulpost. Didn't actually see him use the word "bespoke".

Last edited by CarnalK; 06-13-2019 at 09:55 AM.
  #223  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:17 AM
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Which one am I doing?
Pick any one you like.
  #224  
Old 06-13-2019, 11:51 AM
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I havenít given my bespoke solution to any of them. Which one am I doing?

You also realize that I was offering a solution that performs better than political action at alleviating predation. I was not offering a solution that brings sunshine and rainbows. Would you still like to proceed?
Proceed. Deliver any one of them from predation. Political action, sunshine and rainbows not required.
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  #225  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:13 PM
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No the victims should have moved to escape predation, not because it offends me. Sadly many stayed and became martyrs.

If they had moved and formed accepting communities, perhaps they would have changed local laws first and served as a beacon to similar oppressed individuals so that they too could escape predation. Oh shit thatís what actually happened? You donít say!
OK. If we are moving from facts to fantasy, there is no point to a discussion.
  #226  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:42 PM
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Indeed. I see little need to all this to continue if it's just going to be 'you first, no you first'.

If I don't see some real debate, this thing'll be closed.
  #227  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:44 PM
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The purpose of this thread was to talk about any feelings of vitriol and hatred Dopers have had due to recent politics, how this has affected their lives, how this is affecting the country, and what it says about the country. I think there's been some good discussion and debate about that earlier, and hopefully we can get back to that rather than close the thread.
  #228  
Old 06-13-2019, 03:26 PM
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The purpose of this thread was to talk about any feelings of vitriol and hatred Dopers have had due to recent politics, how this has affected their lives, how this is affecting the country, and what it says about the country. I think there's been some good discussion and debate about that earlier, and hopefully we can get back to that rather than close the thread.
Hear hear.

I happened to watch this Lynyrd Skynyrd doc last night (really good, btw) that showed footage of 60's civil rights protests and counter-protests. I was struck by how the counter-protesters not only had signage promoting segregation, but also lots of of all-American generic patriotic stuff as well. As if sticking to the system they knew and trusted was somehow more patriotic than changing it. And obviously they were pretty vitriolic about it.

Not very different from today, in other words. Forget about race and immigration. How is "making coal great again" (as one random example) more American and patriotic than transitioning to renewable energy?

So, the connection between vitriol, empty patriotism and resistance to change goes at least as far back as the 60s.
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  #229  
Old 06-13-2019, 03:33 PM
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The purpose of this thread was to talk about any feelings of vitriol and hatred Dopers have had due to recent politics, how this has affected their lives, how this is affecting the country, and what it says about the country. I think there's been some good discussion and debate about that earlier, and hopefully we can get back to that rather than close the thread.
I read a post by a Trump supporter recently on Facebook who pointed out that the Romans used to say, "In wine, there is truth," and said that Trump was the "wine" that made Americans on the left and right expose who they really are on the inside. Now that the pretense is gone, the vitriol is out because people finally can acknowledge each other's true motives, and they see that there is little motive or reason for compromise. It's gone from "how can we find a mutual win-win solution?" to "how can we screw you over for maximum gratification to ourselves?"
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Old 06-13-2019, 04:02 PM
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I read a post by a Trump supporter recently on Facebook who pointed out that the Romans used to say, "In wine, there is truth," and said that Trump was the "wine" that made Americans on the left and right expose who they really are on the inside. Now that the pretense is gone, the vitriol is out because people finally can acknowledge each other's true motives, and they see that there is little motive or reason for compromise. It's gone from "how can we find a mutual win-win solution?" to "how can we screw you over for maximum gratification to ourselves?"
As vitriolic as I feel about Trump & Minion most days, I do not feel the desire to "screw over" people who voted for him. Even while I consider many of them to be short-sighted idiots, what I'd like most is for them to have good jobs that are part of the new economy, to have universal healthcare so a serious illness doesn't destroy them economically, to have their kids educated and have affordable options for college, to have them feel invested in their futures. But we can't have that because with that orange fucking menace in the white house, we can't have a normal conversation about having nice things and how to go about making sure everybody gets to enjoy them.
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  #231  
Old 06-13-2019, 04:04 PM
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I read a post by a Trump supporter recently on Facebook who pointed out that the Romans used to say, "In wine, there is truth," and said that Trump was the "wine" that made Americans on the left and right expose who they really are on the inside. Now that the pretense is gone, the vitriol is out because people finally can acknowledge each other's true motives, and they see that there is little motive or reason for compromise. It's gone from "how can we find a mutual win-win solution?" to "how can we screw you over for maximum gratification to ourselves?"
Interesting idea but I think it's exactly wrong. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I honestly don't think we're a nation of warring ideologies that loathe each other. I think we're mostly a nation of people who would prefer a more peaceful co-existence, but the fragmentation of mass media makes the voices of vitriol (TM) louder and easier to accept than the voices of sanity.

The voices of vitriol have a longer and nastier history on the right, IMO. If Trump has had any effect, it's in making the left realize they had to fight back the same way to survive. Unfortunately, we kind of suck at it.
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  #232  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:21 PM
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I read a post by a Trump supporter recently on Facebook who pointed out that the Romans used to say, "In wine, there is truth," and said that Trump was the "wine" that made Americans on the left and right expose who they really are on the inside.
It's true. For a long time, both sides have pretended that conservatives aren't authoritarian fascists. Trump helped us all admit this isn't true. Hooray for both sides.
  #233  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:22 PM
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Interesting idea but I think it's exactly wrong. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I honestly don't think we're a nation of warring ideologies that loathe each other. I think we're mostly a nation of people who would prefer a more peaceful co-existence, but the fragmentation of mass media makes the voices of vitriol (TM) louder and easier to accept than the voices of sanity.
I agree with this. Further, I think that deep seated anxiety about fiscal safety is a remnant of the Great Recession. It happened in our lifetimes, and I think there's a lingering fear underneath all of the tension. Fear can drive people to make poor or different choices than they might have previously. I can see that "the government failed us" easily becomes "send something up there to break the Machine." Fear also makes people angrier and more strident.
  #234  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:28 PM
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It's true. For a long time, both sides have pretended that conservatives aren't authoritarian fascists. Trump helped us all admit this isn't true. Hooray for both sides.
But if you ask conservatives, would they say they are the authoritarian fascists, or the liberals? For vitriol purposes, all that matters is how people feel, not whether their feelings are right.
  #235  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:41 PM
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But if you ask conservatives, would they say they are the authoritarian fascists, or the liberals? For vitriol purposes, all that matters is how people feel, not whether their feelings are right.
The great con job of the modern era has been convincing white, Christian, middle-class Americans that they are the oppressed class, and that liberals and progressives are the tyrants taking away their freedoms. Makes me vitriolic just thinking about it.
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  #236  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:22 AM
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But if you ask conservatives, would they say they are the authoritarian fascists, or the liberals?
They'd say "no u", as usual. But they couldn't back it up if pressed.
  #237  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:23 AM
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people finally can acknowledge each other's true motives, and they see that there is little motive or reason for compromise. It's gone from "how can we find a mutual win-win solution?" to "how can we screw you over for maximum gratification to ourselves?"
No, both sides don't do it. Only one is motivated by wanting to screw the other.
  #238  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:38 AM
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No, both sides don't do it. Only one is motivated by wanting to screw the other.
Sadly, I don't think that's true anymore. Last November I voted straight D, even though I feared Illinois Ds would mismanage the state's finances even worse than they have been while Rs might have provided needed balance. Why? Because I now associate any R with Trump and his followers, and I want nothing more than to see them be cast into the incinerator of history.

Granted, I see abolishing the current R culture as a means to an end (a healthier country), not an end in itself. But I'm sure most Rs would say the same thing.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:55 AM
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It's a positive step for those expressing intense vitriol against opponents to regret the state of affairs that's made them hate their fascist, socialist, racist, anti-Constitutional, genocidal fellow Americans.

We progress.
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:25 AM
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No, both sides don't do it. Only one is motivated by wanting to screw the other.
Wrong. All sides want power. You honestly think, for example, Sen. Warren is as far left as she currently portrays herself? Not a chance in hell. She just knows that pandering to that group of voters gives her a chance to get more power.

Itís a bit like the highest ranking clergy in religious orders. You think they believe all the words they preach?
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:39 AM
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Some people are ideal driven. Doesn't make them all driven by lust for power. Obama certainly never struck me as someone with a lust for power. Ambition, yes. Idealism, sure. Power for its own sake, not so much. Current Pope doesn't strike me as someone hungry for power either.
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  #242  
Old 06-14-2019, 09:52 AM
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No, both sides don't do it. Only one is motivated by wanting to screw the other.
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Wrong. All sides want power. You honestly think, for example, Sen. Warren is as far left as she currently portrays herself? Not a chance in hell. She just knows that pandering to that group of voters gives her a chance to get more power.

Itís a bit like the highest ranking clergy in religious orders. You think they believe all the words they preach?
All of that may be true, but it doesn't contradict what ElvisL1ves said. Acting more liberal than you actually are doesn't require a desire to screw conservatives.
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:33 PM
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We're running concentration camps at the southern border, in the facilities we used as Japanese internment camps. History could not be screaming any louder if someone tacked up "Work Will Make You Free" above the gates.

At this point, if you don't feel some form of extreme vitriol towards at least some of your fellow countrymen...

*CLAP CLAP* OI! WAKE UP!

You're either asleep, or you're one of the people I'm feeling quite vitriolic towards.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:37 PM
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We're running concentration camps at the southern border, in the facilities we used as Japanese internment camps. History could not be screaming any louder if someone tacked up "Work Will Make You Free" above the gates.

At this point, if you don't feel some form of extreme vitriol towards at least some of your fellow countrymen...

*CLAP CLAP* OI! WAKE UP!

You're either asleep, or you're one of the people I'm feeling quite vitriolic towards.
I think the border situation is a travesty of justice but I don't think we are making those detainees perform hard labor or gassing them, or holding them without an intent to file charges, nor do I think we are anywhere near that kind of slippery slope. Maybe that is not what you alluded to in the above, but it is certainly what I read into your post.

~Max
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:40 PM
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Kids have died in those cages.
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  #246  
Old 06-14-2019, 03:43 PM
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Kids have died in those cages.
Yes, which sucks majorly and should make the administration reconsider their policies.

But that is totally different in than the summary executions associated with "concentration camps" and "Work Will Make You Free".

~Max
  #247  
Old 06-14-2019, 03:46 PM
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I think the border situation is a travesty of justice but I don't think we are making those detainees perform hard labor or gassing them, or holding them without an intent to file charges, nor do I think we are anywhere near that kind of slippery slope. Maybe that is not what you alluded to in the above, but it is certainly what I read into your post.

~Max
https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...RNF_7M4P6TNjfA

Worth a read.
"What's required is a little bit of demystification of it," says Waitman Wade Beorn, a Holocaust and genocide studies historian and a lecturer at the University of Virginia. "Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz. Concentration camps in general have always been designedóat the most basic levelóto separate one group of people from another group. Usually, because the majority group, or the creators of the camp, deem the people they're putting in it to be dangerous or undesirable in some way."

"Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz."

Not every concentration camp is a death campóin fact, their primary purpose is rarely extermination, and never in the beginning. Often, much of the death and suffering is a result of insufficient resources, overcrowding, and deteriorating conditions. So far, 24 people have died in the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under the Trump administration, while six children have died in the care of other agencies since September. Systems like these have emerged across the world for well over 100 years, and they've been established by putative liberal democraciesóas with Britain's camps in South Africa during the Boer Waróas well as authoritarian states like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Camps set up with one aim can be repurposed by new regimes, often with devastating consequences.

History is banging down the door this week with the news the Trump administration will use Fort Sill, an Oklahoma military base that was used to detain Japanese-Americans during World War II, to house 1,400 unaccompanied migrant children captured at the border. Japanese internment certainly constituted a concentration-camp system, and the echoes of the past are growing louder. Of course, the Obama administration temporarily housed migrants at military bases, including Fort Sill, for four months in 2014, built many of the newer facilities to house migrants, and pioneered some of the tactics the Trump administration is now using to try to manage the situation at the border.
  #248  
Old 06-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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Worth a read.
Thanks. I do think the Japanese internment was a good comparison but I don't think you accomplished much by saying "concentration camp" and "Work Will Make You Free". True, concentration camps are not technically extermination camps, but they often involve hard labor and are forced upon people who in all cases should not be detained.

Whether asylum-seekers should be detained is debatable as a practical matter (morally of course not), and I think most everybody will agree that the detention should be short and well attended. But you should know that "concentration camp" has a specific connotation, especially when accompanied by the Auschwitz motto. That's why I was taken back by your hyperbole, in this thread of all places.

~Max
  #249  
Old 06-14-2019, 04:15 PM
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Thanks. I do think the Japanese internment was a good comparison but I don't think you accomplished much by saying "concentration camp" and "Work Will Make You Free". True, concentration camps are not technically extermination camps, but they often involve hard labor and are forced upon people who in all cases should not be detained.
I will scream "1933 Germany was not 1942 Germany" into the void until someone figures out what I'm talking about. Why yes, these camps aren't death camps. Yet. The mere fact of their existence should already be sending anyone who cares about human rights into fits. "No, see, it's just a concentration camp like the ones we had during period X, not like the ones in nazi Germany" - be my guest and insert a period there where it isn't a national or international source of shame and horror and/or a black mark on the country.
  #250  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:03 AM
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One of the things that I think has really changed is that people don't accept fig leaf explanations anymore. At one time, there was a feeling that you were supposed to accept things like what Velocity or UltraVires said about the 'deny care to LGBT patients' laws, that they're really just completely innocent and only about really specific transition-related treatments and not basic lifesaving care. But enough people now are tired of pretending that's what those laws are about, that that is either the intended or actual effect of such laws that they will treat supporters of such laws with the vitriol appropriate to someone who wants to protect and encourage EMTs to laugh at someone bleeding out on the side of the highway. People entertained the fiction that anti-abortion laws were really about protecting babies, but more people now are willing to say 'hey, this is actually about forcing an 11-year old rape victim to carry her rapists baby and engage in custody disputes with him for the next 18 years', or 'this is actually about forcing a woman to give birth to a baby with no actual brain that cannot possibly be viable', and 'yeah, we're not going to ignore the vitriol of protestors hanging outside of clinics that perform abortions for non-rich people shouting 'whore' at people anymore'.

I will also note that no one has answered the question from a while back about what time period was actually free of vitriol. I think that if someone manages to actually answer that, find that what's really being objected to is not 'vitriol' per se, but that rich white people, primarily men are now getting the same vitriol they've been handing out since the start of the country.

Quote:
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I think the border situation is a travesty of justice but I don't think we are making those detainees perform hard labor or gassing them, or holding them without an intent to file charges,
"Well, our concentration camps are just at the level of Germany's prewar concentration camps and not up to the level of extermination camps, why do you have to be so rude as to make the comparison to concentraion camps?"
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