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  #151  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The same way we determine anything regarding historical events that extend into living memory: Rigorous research, including detailed looks at official and private records, interviews, and anything more that might be relevant. Lots and lots of hard work.
This raises an interesting issue. Has anyone done a study to determine what are the lingering effects of slavery versus what are the effects of racism?

It could be done. We'd need to divide black Americans into two groups; those who had an ancestor who was enslaved and those who did not. By comparing the social and economic statistics of these two groups, we could form some conclusions about what the effects of slavery are compared to the effects of racism.
  #152  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:47 AM
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I disagree. If you have an issue with something TNC has said, I'll invite you to quote it and expand on why you disagree with it.
The issue isn't with what he says, as with what he doesn't say. Namely, that he doesn't seem to want to address many of the questions raised in this thread. That's what I would like to see, and in a little more detail than "it will take hard work".

For instance, you linked above to someone who says the difference between median black and median white household wealth is $33K, therefore we should pay reparations of $33K apiece. I assume this is supposed to be due to racism and the lingering effects of slavery, otherwise reparations wouldn't make sense. Households made up of a single parent, usually a mother, and her children, have lower household wealth than average, black or white. Black households are disproportionately likely to be made up of single mothers. So that accounts for at least some of the difference.

But white, single-mother households also suffer from lower household wealth. Presumably that difference isn't due to slavery or racism. So, you need to compare apples to apples - the difference that can be due to slavery or racism must be that represented by the difference between black and white households with the same demographics. So, assuming white single mother households have a wealth disparity of X and black single mother households have a disparity of Y, then the amount possibly due to racism is X - Y. But you are not done yet.

Assume X - Y = Z. You then need to demonstrate that Z is caused by racism and the lingering effects of slavery, and who, specifically, discriminated, and how the discrimination caused Z.

You can't just say "it must be". You have to show it.

That's what I would like to see, from someone.

Regards,
Shodan
  #153  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:50 AM
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The issue isn't with what he says, as with what he doesn't say. Namely, that he doesn't seem to want to address many of the questions raised in this thread. That's what I would like to see, and in a little more detail than "it will take hard work".
By my reading, he's very much in favor of the kind of research and study that could find answers to these kinds of questions.

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For instance, you linked above to someone who says the difference between median black and median white household wealth is $33K, therefore we should pay reparations of $33K apiece. I assume this is supposed to be due to racism and the lingering effects of slavery, otherwise reparations wouldn't make sense. Households made up of a single parent, usually a mother, and her children, have lower household wealth than average, black or white. Black households are disproportionately likely to be made up of single mothers. So that accounts for at least some of the difference.

But white, single-mother households also suffer from lower household wealth. Presumably that difference isn't due to slavery or racism. So, you need to compare apples to apples - the difference that can be due to slavery or racism must be that represented by the difference between black and white households with the same demographics. So, assuming white single mother households have a wealth disparity of X and black single mother households have a disparity of Y, then the amount possibly due to racism is X - Y. But you are not done yet.

Assume X - Y = Z. You then need to demonstrate that Z is caused by racism and the lingering effects of slavery, and who, specifically, discriminated, and how the discrimination caused Z.

You can't just say "it must be". You have to show it.

That's what I would like to see, from someone.

Regards,
Shodan
Fine and reasonable questions, and hopefully you'll join me in pushing for programs like HR 40 or other research initiatives that might be able to find answers to these questions. Alternately, you can advocate doing nothing, but if you're actually interested in finding the answers to difficult questions like this, then we'd probably need to expend some resources in digging to get them.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-20-2019 at 11:51 AM.
  #154  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:51 AM
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The issue isn't with what he says, as with what he doesn't say. Namely, that he doesn't seem to want to address many of the questions raised in this thread. That's what I would like to see, and in a little more detail than "it will take hard work".

For instance, you linked above to someone who says the difference between median black and median white household wealth is $33K, therefore we should pay reparations of $33K apiece. I assume this is supposed to be due to racism and the lingering effects of slavery, otherwise reparations wouldn't make sense. Households made up of a single parent, usually a mother, and her children, have lower household wealth than average, black or white. Black households are disproportionately likely to be made up of single mothers. So that accounts for at least some of the difference.

But white, single-mother households also suffer from lower household wealth. Presumably that difference isn't due to slavery or racism. So, you need to compare apples to apples - the difference that can be due to slavery or racism must be that represented by the difference between black and white households with the same demographics. So, assuming white single mother households have a wealth disparity of X and black single mother households have a disparity of Y, then the amount possibly due to racism is X - Y. But you are not done yet.

Assume X - Y = Z. You then need to demonstrate that Z is caused by racism and the lingering effects of slavery, and who, specifically, discriminated, and how the discrimination caused Z.

You can't just say "it must be". You have to show it.

That's what I would like to see, from someone.

Regards,
Shodan
In other words, we can't trust those egg-headed scientists and data analysts to know how to do their jobs and control/account for the variances; Morons the lot. Why even give them the chance to do the study?
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  #155  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:53 AM
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Here's an illustration of what I see as the problem with reparations at this time.

Let's take a real world example of the consequences of racism; the highly disproportionate rate of black people being killed by the police.

The reparations route would be to offer a sizable cash settlement to the families of the dead men. Let's say a million dollars is given to each family.

And, to ensure that future victims get the same justice, we'll put a hundred million dollars aside into a special dedicated fund. That way, the next hundred times a black person is killed by the police, we'll be sure that their families will receive their money for it.

I hope you can see how this program is misdirected. What we need to do is put resources into stopping the police from killing black people not into setting up a program for paying off the victims.
  #156  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:55 AM
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Here's an illustration of what I see as the problem with reparations at this time.

Let's take a real world example of the consequences of racism; the highly disproportionate rate of black people being killed by the police.

The reparations route would be to offer a sizable cash settlement to the families of the dead men. Let's say a million dollars is given to each family.

And, to ensure that future victims get the same justice, we'll put a hundred million dollars aside into a special dedicated fund. That way, the next hundred times a black person is killed by the police, we'll be sure that their families will receive their money for it.

I hope you can see how this program is misdirected. What we need to do is put resources into stopping the police from killing black people not into setting up a program for paying off the victims.
I agree -- a program specifically targeting police killings would need to make sure there are no more disparate unjust killings any more.

But for something like segregation, or Redlining, those are already over -- we could certainly study the effects those had on living Americans, and consider the possible ways we might address any lingering harm.
  #157  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:18 PM
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This thread keeps referring back to Japanese-Americans interred during WWII and Native Americans as analogous to the situation facing African-Americans today.

In the case of Japanese-American internment as compared to slavery, reparations and apologies were made to the exact people who were interred. There were no intervening generations of people on both sides to untangle to find the proper people to make reparations to or the proper people responsible for the injustices. This is not an analogous situation in regards to slavery, as the immediate victims of slavery have long since died and cannot be compensated in any way.

In the case of Native Americans, which might more closely parallel the systemic racial injustices of the past faced by African Americans, there have been attempts to apologize and try to make some restitution to recent past and current generations by way of government programs and entitlements. People who can prove their Native American heritage are entitled to some government benefits and perks, though probably not as many or as comprehensive as many might believe, and I dare say few would call themselves better off because of them. This is more closely aligned to the discussion of reparations for centuries of discrimination faced by some African Americans, but definitely not a program to aspire to, at any rate.

The analogy that I'd like to put forth is the comparative situation of women in America. In my lifetime women have been denied rights simply because they were female.

-Until 1839 women were unable to own property in their own names. In 1839 it became legal in one state (MS). It wasn't until 1900 that it was legal in every state. Of course, if that woman married, then everything became her husband's property as head and master of the family, until 1974.

-Until 1890 women were unable to vote. Wyoming allowed women to vote in 1890. It wasn't until 1920 that every state allowed women to vote.

-Until 1963 women were systematically paid less than men. In 1963 a law was passed to guarantee equal pay for equal work. I submit that in many cases women are still paid less than their male counterparts. It isn't legal, and a lawsuit can be brought if it can be proven, but it is extremely hard to prove that any pay discrepancy is based on gender rather that another reason.

-Until 1972 it was legal to discriminate at colleges and universities based on gender.

-Until 1973 it was legal to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy. In 2019 several states passed laws to effectively regain ownership of women's reproductive rights irrespective of her wishes or her doctor's advice.

-Until 1978 a woman could be legally fired from her job if she was pregnant.

-Until 1993 there was no legal definition of marital rape in the US, and no recourse for women who experienced it.

As a woman who was raised by a single mother (who gave birth to me at 16 because abortion was illegal, as was birth control for unmarried women), and who lived in "the bad part of town" because mom was unable to establish credit in her own name to get a mortgage to buy a house, which she couldn't afford anyway because she was paid way less than her male coworkers at the meatpacking plant, I feel I can speak with at least a little knowledge of living in tough circumstances due to systematic legal discrimination. I didn't go to a good school. Good schools were in the rich neighborhoods, though I did graduate 3rd in my class from the school I attended. I didn't go to college (I couldn't afford it at the time), but both of my children did. I worked unskilled to semi-skilled jobs most of my life, working my way up to what I'd call middle management. Laws have changed, though, and I'll fight for my rights if and when they are threatened.

The world has changed, albeit no one can say it is a perfect utopia of unity, and I truly believe deep in my heart that everyone, EVERYONE, living today has a chance at a good future. Perhaps not an equal chance. There's always someone better off than you, with better connections than you, with a more privileged past than you. There will always be someone who doesn't like you for who you are, whether you're Hispanic, or gay, or elderly, or in any way "not them". That's life. And there are laws against it. Use them.

Wallowing in victimhood, bemoaning the injustices of the past, does way more harm than good. It only gives you a scapegoat to point to when life isn't what you'd like it to be instead of an incentive to be better. There are way more productive uses of time.

The past doesn't owe me, or you, anything. Even if it did, the past cannot pay. The past is over. Yes, my present would be different if my past was different. Yes, my present could be better if subtle discrimination didn't exist. As a country, a society, a people, all we can do is fight for the future. We can't change the past. We shouldn't forget it, but we also shouldn't allow ourselves to be defined by it.
  #158  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:40 PM
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This thread keeps referring back to Japanese-Americans interred during WWII and Native Americans as analogous to the situation facing African-Americans today.

In the case of Japanese-American internment as compared to slavery, reparations and apologies were made to the exact people who were interred. There were no intervening generations of people on both sides to untangle to find the proper people to make reparations to or the proper people responsible for the injustices. This is not an analogous situation in regards to slavery, as the immediate victims of slavery have long since died and cannot be compensated in any way.
For about the 20th time, the most prominent advocates for studying reparations today believe that it's vital to look at the harm done by US policies, like Redlining and segregation, which harmed living Americans, when considering reparations. It's not just slavery, and it's not just about dead people.
  #159  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:43 PM
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For about the 20th time, the most prominent advocates for studying reparations today believe that it's vital to look at the harm done by US policies, like Redlining and segregation, which harmed living Americans, when considering reparations. It's not just slavery, and it's not just about dead people.
Exactly. I said it WASN'T a good analogy.
  #160  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:44 PM
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Exactly. I said it WASN'T a good analogy.
Huh? Reparations for Japanese American internees were given to those Japanese Americans who were interned. TNC and I are advocating studying the possibility of giving reparations for Redlining and segregation to those Americans who were harmed by Redlining and segregation. Why is that a bad analogy? Both efforts are targeted directly towards living people who were harmed by discriminatory government policy.
  #161  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:51 PM
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Huh? Reparations for Japanese American internees were given to those Japanese Americans who were interned. TNC and I are advocating studying the possibility of giving reparations for Redlining and segregation to those Americans who were harmed by Redlining and segregation. Why is that a bad analogy? Both efforts are targeted directly towards living people who were harmed by discriminatory government policy.
Ok, how many living people were harmed by redlining? Since that is something you can directly find, please tell us how to go about determining if they were harmed or not. Then we would need to know how they were harmed, and at what cost that may have caused.

I'm thinking this number is going to be tiny
  #162  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:55 PM
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Ok, how many living people were harmed by redlining? Since that is something you can directly find, please tell us how to go about determining if they were harmed or not. Then we would need to know how they were harmed, and at what cost that may have caused.

I'm thinking this number is going to be tiny
If so, should be a very inexpensive program.

I'd go about this by passing something like HR 40, set up a commission of historians and researchers who can dig into records and conduct interviews, with lots of publicity to invite people to come forward and tell their stories. With a combination of historical records, private records and correspondence, and interviews, and lots of hard work, we should be able to identify with some level of confidence those living Americans who lived in areas that were economically depressed by Redlining policies, as well as (possibly) those Americans who specifically denied loans or loan assistance due to these discriminatory policies.

Just the first steps, of course.
  #163  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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In other words, we can't trust those egg-headed scientists and data analysts to know how to do their jobs and control/account for the variances; Morons the lot. Why even give them the chance to do the study?
You are correct that I am not just going to take TNC or the person claiming the $33K difference at their word, especially if I am going to have to come up with trillions.

I am disinclined to simply hand my wallet to some activist and say "Help yourself - tell me when you are done". YMMV.

Regards,
Shodan
  #164  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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Huh? Reparations for Japanese American internees were given to those Japanese Americans who were interned. TNC and I are advocating studying the possibility of giving reparations for Redlining and segregation to those Americans who were harmed by Redlining and segregation. Why is that a bad analogy? Both efforts are targeted directly towards living people who were harmed by discriminatory government policy.
It's a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I'm assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven't made the case that the US government is culpable there.

Last edited by Bone; 06-20-2019 at 12:58 PM.
  #165  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:10 PM
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It's a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I'm assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven't made the case that the US government is culpable there.
I believe TNC has made that case (and you've acknowledged that the government created the maps that singled out black neighborhoods with "red lines" for lesser access to loans), but I think there is no conflict in also addressing the actions of banks.

Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:14 PM
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Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?
Do you believe the government owes millions of women anything for the harm done by not affording them equal rights to men in the past?
  #167  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:15 PM
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It's a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I'm assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven't made the case that the US government is culpable there.
Segregation was state government sponsored. Are you saying these grievances should be state settled matters? Maybe so. Seems far less likely this sort of legislation would see the light of day.
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  #168  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:15 PM
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Do you believe the government owes millions of women anything for the harm done by not affording them equal rights to men in the past?
Very possibly -- this sounds like a reasonable thing to study.

So I answered your question -- care to answer mine?
  #169  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:17 PM
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Has this ever started in other countries? Like have people descended from Famine victims in Ireland campaigned for reparations, for example? Or those who were serfs in Eastern Europe? (Serfdom there was NOT like in feudal times, but just slavery under a different name, and it didn't completely end until right around the same time slavery did here in the U.S.)



Seriously, has this ever been a thing elsewhere?
  #170  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:18 PM
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Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?
Please explain how you know that the blame and the payments should fall on the US government rather than the private discriminators, and how you determined the amount and nature of the damage, and who specifically should get the dough.

Regards,
Shodan
  #171  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:19 PM
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I believe TNC has made that case (and you've acknowledged that the government created the maps that singled out black neighborhoods with "red lines" for lesser access to loans), but I think there is no conflict in also addressing the actions of banks.

Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?
No, TNC has not made that case. He has made a very persuasive case regarding the harm that redlining caused, but not that the federal government was responsible. The maps were created to plot out risk areas. You haven't shown they were done with the intent of calling out racial groupings. Much like an actuary would map out zip codes for higher premiums on auto insurance because of increased risk of loss in frequency and severity. If the census captures race based data, and then someone uses that data for nefarious purposes, census takers aren't culpable for that. That's the level you're at right now.

The US government certainly has more responsibility when it comes to segregation, though I have yet to see a case made strong enough to support reparations. If in 1950 a business owner excluded blacks, I'm not seeing how the US Taxpayer is responsible.
  #172  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:21 PM
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Very possibly -- this sounds like a reasonable thing to study.

So I answered your question -- care to answer mine?
No, I'm sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone's, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can't be categorically quantified and assigned a value.
  #173  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:31 PM
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No, I'm sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone's, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can't be categorically quantified and assigned a value.
This doesn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?

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Please explain how you know that the blame and the payments should fall on the US government rather than the private discriminators, and how you determined the amount and nature of the damage, and who specifically should get the dough.
This doesn't answer my question. If you don't want to answer, fair enough.

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  #174  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:31 PM
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There is no question that compensation is due African American descendants of slaves but who should pay the reparations? The answer most definitely isn't this one....https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/polit...ery/index.html
Yes, there is a question.

No slaves are currently alive.

A lot of black people in American arent even descendants of slaves.

The US government never promised reparations, that whole '40 acres and a mule" thing is a urban legend.

There is no way to determine who is Black. The only legal way in America is self determination. So we all self identify, and it's just taking money from the left pocket and putting it in the right.

The big scam is getting people to agree that reparations are just, then slamming them with the bill. A conservative estimate would double everyones tax bill.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:33 PM
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Haven't read TNC's most recent comments, but have not been persuaded by his previous writings.

I'm all in favor of restructuring society to address past inequities, but I see no convincing argument as to cash payments of any specific amount from any specific parties to any specific individuals. OP - simply stating a position as self evident does not make it so.

I am HUGELY in favor of increased investment in minority communities, enhanced education/vocational/social programs, racial preferences for jobs, school enrollments, etc. But I find the arguments for reparations entirely unpersuasive. I'm very disappointed to have heard some candidates whom I respect suggest it is a legitimate topic of discussion.
Agreed. It becomes an endless debate about who pays how much and to whom, and does that clear the account while we are at it? And, ah, who is paying?

Plus, I suppose the native Americans aka Amerindians or whatever the PC phrase is would then need to be considered. Again, all well an good, but how exactly?

What indeed can be done? The past cannot really be undone, but something can be done now. Essentially, invest in ways to help people - but don't just throw money at the problem. Remove injiustice and social and political handicaps while avoiding affirmative action as much as possible. The latter tends to have a poisonous effect in the long term. <cue lengthy debate on the topic>
  #176  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:33 PM
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Fair enough. But if it were done this way, the cry would go up that when the Japanese internment survivors were given reparations, it went directly to the individual victims.
Who were, i will point out- still alive and identifiable.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:36 PM
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No, TNC has not made that case. He has made a very persuasive case regarding the harm that redlining caused, but not that the federal government was responsible. The maps were created to plot out risk areas. You haven't shown they were done with the intent of calling out racial groupings. Much like an actuary would map out zip codes for higher premiums on auto insurance because of increased risk of loss in frequency and severity. If the census captures race based data, and then someone uses that data for nefarious purposes, census takers aren't culpable for that. That's the level you're at right now.
I don't see why the intent matters (though considering the time, I'm skeptical that there wasn't at least a partial discriminatory intent) -- slavery was not intended to harm black people; it was intended to provide the economic benefit of slavery to property owners. The result was discriminatory regardless of the intent.

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The US government certainly has more responsibility when it comes to segregation, though I have yet to see a case made strong enough to support reparations. If in 1950 a business owner excluded blacks, I'm not seeing how the US Taxpayer is responsible.
It's not the US taxpayer responsible, it's the US government. Just like it was the US government responsible for Japanese-American internment (and reparations).

Do you believe that reparations for that internment was appropriate?
  #178  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:36 PM
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My hypothetical experiment would start with all the living Americans (of a single town/neighborhood) who were harmed by Redlining, segregation, and similar discriminatory and oppresive government policies and practices within living memory. If that were successful, then I'd start looking at the policies and practices that were gone before the lifespan of any living American.
How about those who were harmed by redlining, sued the banks and collected? Do they get to collect twice?

How about the Native Americans, are we going to give them reparations?

How about the Hispanics, where racism is ongoing and a major feature of the current administration?

No, once you start down this road paved with good intentions, you do nothing but generate hard feelings from those who didnt get reparations, or didnt get enough. It's a bad road, and a stupid one.
  #179  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:37 PM
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Who were, i will point out- still alive and identifiable.
Just like many Americans who suffered under segregation, Redlining, and other discriminatory policies and practices.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:37 PM
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No, I'm sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone's, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can't be categorically quantified and assigned a value.
Perhaps we ought not even bother with including women in the ERA. I mean, what guarantee is there that this will improve women's rights? Things are pretty good now, after all. Certainly better than they were. And we may never know if things would have been just fine without all the fuss and bother.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:38 PM
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How about those who were harmed by redlining, sued the banks and collected? Do they get to collect twice?

How about the Native Americans, are we going to give them reparations?

How about the Hispanics, where racism is ongoing and a major feature of the current administration?
These are reasonable questions that should be researched and discussed. A comprehensive and rigorous program of historical research could do a lot to answer a lot of these reasonable questions that have been put forward.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:39 PM
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What you describe as "increased investment in minority communities" could be a huge part of a reparations discussion. TNC himself says that reparations could come in many forms, and would not necessarily require "cash payments" to anyone. I think you should try reading his arguments again if you missed this.
Bu, last time I checked, he only favors reparations to the Blacks, not native Americans, who were harmed the most, and certainly not to asians (like the Chinese workers in the west) or Hispanics. Or Irish "No Irish need apply". That's pretty damn racist.

where does it end?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:40 PM
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Bu, last time I checked, he only favors reparations to the Blacks, not native Americans, who were harmed the most, and certainly not to asians (like the Chinese workers in the west) or Hispanics. Or Irish "No Irish need apply".
This is incorrect; TNC has explicitly advocated that discrimination against other groups (in particular Native Americans) must be considered in any reparations program. I recommend reading up on TNC's arguments since it appears you are not familiar with them.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Thankfully, he doesn't advocate it be done by fiat, but rather by the normal democratic legislative process -- the same process that resulted in reparations for Japanese-American internees. Did you consider those reparations "flippant"?
No, but they were paid to people who were still alive and clearly identifiable. Reparations for something that happened so long ago that no one alive remembers it is a entirely different thing. And dont bring up "redlining" as recent, since many sued and collected.

How do you identify who is "black"? Or just those who are descendants of slaves? Records of those are very poor.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:44 PM
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If so, should be a very inexpensive program.

I'd go about this by passing something like HR 40, set up a commission of historians and researchers who can dig into records and conduct interviews, with lots of publicity to invite people to come forward and tell their stories. With a combination of historical records, private records and correspondence, and interviews, and lots of hard work, we should be able to identify with some level of confidence those living Americans who lived in areas that were economically depressed by Redlining policies, as well as (possibly) those Americans who specifically denied loans or loan assistance due to these discriminatory policies.

Just the first steps, of course.
How about instead of funding that with taxpayer money, they get together and find some attorneys willing to work off a percentage of what they get? It sounds like it could be lucrative.

I mean, it already was, once
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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No, TNC has not made that case. He has made a very persuasive case regarding the harm that redlining caused, but not that the federal government was responsible. The maps were created to plot out risk areas. You haven't shown they were done with the intent of calling out racial groupings. Much like an actuary would map out zip codes for higher premiums on auto insurance because of increased risk of loss in frequency and severity. If the census captures race based data, and then someone uses that data for nefarious purposes, census takers aren't culpable for that. That's the level you're at right now.

The US government certainly has more responsibility when it comes to segregation, though I have yet to see a case made strong enough to support reparations. If in 1950 a business owner excluded blacks, I'm not seeing how the US Taxpayer is responsible.
Forgot to mention that the US goverment's culpability for Redlining (and similar policies) is the same as its culpability for slavery -- it allowed these harmful discriminatory practices to be executed in its borders and under its authority. If rape was legal in the US (say, marital rape) at some point, then the US government bears some culpability for any rapes that it considered legal. Do you disagree?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:46 PM
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No, but they were paid to people who were still alive and clearly identifiable. Reparations for something that happened so long ago that no one alive remembers it is a entirely different thing. And dont bring up "redlining" as recent, since many sued and collected.
Ha! Don't bring up a program you don't want to talk about. Okay, how about segregation? Do you believe the US government bears any culpability for the harm caused by segregation?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:47 PM
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In the present, this is true. This isn't about passing any bills (aside from maybe a commission or a study) now, but starting the conversation for possible action in the future.



We definitely should also discuss reparations for the many policies and practices of the US government that harmed (and continue to harm) Native Americans. TNC has also said this many times. ...
That's a bad idea. Once we "start the conversation" if checks for millions arent forthcoming (and yes, Millions, that's what many think they are owed) people will get angry that no $M check is forthcoming, and this will just hurt race relations. Not to mention, they will be the victims of scams, like what happened with tax scams a decade or so ago, where Blacks were scammed into claiming a "40 acres and a mule" tax credit.

Reparations will do nothing but hurt race relations in the USA.

Whites like myself, whose ancestors fought for the Union, never held a slave and whose recent ancestors fought for racial equality will be angry because we will see our tax bills doubled just like the sons of slaveholders.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:48 PM
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 06-20-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #190  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:48 PM
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That's a bad idea. Once we "start the conversation" if checks for millions arent forthcoming (and yes, Millions, that's what many think they are owed) people will get angry that no $M check is forthcoming, and this will just hurt race relations. Not to mention, they will be the victims of scams, like what happened with tax scams a decade or so ago, where Blacks were scammed into claiming a "40 acres and a mule" tax credit.

Reparations will do nothing but hurt race relations in the USA.

Whites like myself, whose ancestors fought for the Union, never held a slave and whose recent ancestors fought for racial equality will be angry because we will see our tax bills doubled just like the sons of slaveholders.
Thank you for your contribution. I disagree with your reasoning, but thanks anyway.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:49 PM
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This doesn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?.
You have not yet demonstrated the truth of the premises on which your question is based. So, I guess the answer is "not so far".

Do you believe any of the following groups are culpable, and should pay, for segregation?
  • White people
  • Black people
  • Asians
  • People who immigrated to the US after 1964
  • People who were born after 1964
  • People in states with no legally-mandated segregation prior to 1964
  • People who benefited from social programs implemented after 1964
Regards,
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:49 PM
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We've had numerous threads about this already, but here goes:


1. There is no way to do such a reparations program without causing massive anger and resentment - an anger that could end up setting race relations back. It is likely to piss off a big chunk of the populace.

2. There is no way to do this and properly identify who should get paid. A black American who can prove a direct history to slave ancestors? Okay, maybe. What about someone who is only 1/32 black, looks white, and has always been treated as a white person, but claims "I'm black too, I want my money?" What about black people who immigrated from Africa recently and have no familial connection to slavery whatsoever? What about black people who owned slaves?

3. You can't pay many millions of people something like $100,000 apiece and not have it lead to massive financial chaos. That adds up to a sum of trillions. Are we going to raise taxes sky-high? Borrow trillions more and add to the national debt?

4. Where does this stop? Do Hispanics, Asians, Arabs, Muslims, Native Americans, women, atheists, gays, lesbians, deserve reparations? We've had centuries of misogyny, haven't we? We've had centuries of anti-LGBT discrimination, haven't we? Eventually we would be handing everyone reparations (except, maybe, white straight men.)
All excellent points. Yes, i forgot the way we treated women in the past, not to mention the rest.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:50 PM
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You have not yet demonstrated the truth of the premises on which your question is based.
Which premise? The premise is that some living Americans were harmed by segregation. Do you disagree?

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Do you believe any of the following groups are culpable, and should pay, for segregation?
  • White people
  • Black people
  • Asians
  • People who immigrated to the US after 1964
  • People who were born after 1964
  • People in states with no legally-mandated segregation prior to 1964
  • People who benefited from social programs implemented after 1964
Regards,
Shodan
I believe the US government is culpable, and would be responsible for any reparations program. The US government includes and is funded by people in all of those categories.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-20-2019 at 01:51 PM.
  #194  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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This doesn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation?
I cannot find evidence that segregation was ever a US law. In 1870, after the end of the Civil War, the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1875 forbidding racial segregation in accommodations. Now, many states had laws allowing or mandating segregation, but not the US government. So, no, I do not believe that the US is culpable in the existence of segregation. But even if they were, while there would be a to quantify who was harmed, the extent of the harm, or assessing a reasonable value of the harm would be all but impossible.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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Ha! Don't bring up a program you don't want to talk about. Okay, how about segregation? Do you believe the US government bears any culpability for the harm caused by segregation?
No. It was fixed.

How about the harm to women, natives, hispanics, gays, jews, Irish, Chinese..........?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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This is incorrect; TNC has explicitly advocated that discrimination against other groups (in particular Native Americans) must be considered in any reparations program. I recommend reading up on TNC's arguments since it appears you are not familiar with them.
He's is too long and too full of bullshit to read. Ok, he mentions native Americas. Does he also mention gays, Irish, Chinese, hispanics, women, and so forth? Does everyone but white straight males get a check?
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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No. It was fixed.
How was this harm fixed? Do you mean segregation ended?

I suppose this must mean that you opposed reparations for the Japanese American internees, then, since that was "fixed" as much as segregation (i.e. it ended).

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How about the harm to women, natives, hispanics, gays, jews, Irish, Chinese..........?
All reasonable to consider. Thanks!
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:54 PM
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Just like many Americans who suffered under segregation, Redlining, and other discriminatory policies and practices.
Redlining was settled by lawsuits. People keep mentioning it, but it was fairly long ago, and lawsuits settled.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:56 PM
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He's is too long and too full of bullshit to read. Ok, he mentions native Americas. Does he also mention gays, Irish, Chinese, hispanics, women, and so forth?
He said explicitly he's open to exploring any harm done by past discriminatory policies, against any group of people. But if you're not interested in reading his writing, then there's probably not much possibility of productive discussion that's largely based on his writing.

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Redlining was settled by lawsuits. People keep mentioning it, but it was fairly long ago, and lawsuits settled.
For a very small number of Americans, perhaps. There are many Americans who suffered under Redlining but did not benefit from those lawsuits.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-20-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:57 PM
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I cannot find evidence that segregation was ever a US law. In 1870, after the end of the Civil War, the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1875 forbidding racial segregation in accommodations. Now, many states had laws allowing or mandating segregation, but not the US government. So, no, I do not believe that the US is culpable in the existence of segregation. But even if they were, while there would be a to quantify who was harmed, the extent of the harm, or assessing a reasonable value of the harm would be all but impossible.
What if it wasn't "impossible"? What if it was entirely possible? Would you be in support then?
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