Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:12 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
The reparations to Japanese Americans was only $20,000. Not much considering the had California real estate taken from them that would be worth millions today.
Right! Even with this relatively modest sum, survivors of internment and their heirs, in addition to Japanese Americans in general, broadly feel that they are fully equal members of American society with a fair chance at success (according to my understanding of polling). So this is an example that can show us that reparations meant to acknowledge and make redress for harm done such that a group will have good reason to feel like truly equal members of American society don't have to break the bank.
  #402  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:17 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
$22 trillion wasn't an effort to heal the damage?
The programs you described were not, in my understanding. There was no detailed study of the harm done, no acknowledgement of this harm, no focused study of how to "heal" this harm, etc.

Quote:
How do we determine that reparations aren't also just pulling out the knife? What would make them different?
Detailed study of the harm done, acknowledgement of this harm, focused study of how to heal this harm, etc.

Quote:
This is what I meant by waffling. You aren't advocating for it, but you assert it would be fantastically beneficial. Does this mean you aren't prepared to explain why it would be so fantastically beneficial, or are you going to retreat back to "we just want to study"?
It's my understanding of Adam Smith/Econ 101 -- giving money to the members of a poor community benefits that community economically. It would encourage local spending, which would lead to local investment and innovation, etc. Normal capitalism stuff when people have more money to spend.
  #403  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:18 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Yes, and correspondingly, the economic loss suffered by a non-black community footing the tax bill would be substantial as well. Not as much as the benefit, because the economic loss would be spread out over a wider taxpayer base (since in this hypothetical, 87% of taxpayers would be paying taxes to give reparations to the 13% of Americans who are black,) but the increase in taxes would mean that a non-black community would have less money to pay bills, less money to afford medical care, less money to spend, less money to upgrade homes, and there would be a downturn for business.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.
This is possible, but there are ways to spend money without increasing taxes -- reduce spending in other areas and printing more money, both of which are done in many circumstances today. There are some circumstances in which those methods are ultimately beneficial and some in which they are not.
  #404  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:20 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Part of the idea is to avoid an aggrieved underclass. Most poor people in the US are not black (a disproportionate amount, but not most). So we should study giving money to some of the poor so they aren't aggrieved. What about the rest - do we care if they're aggrieved? Do they have to wait until we are done studying if black people get cash, or do we include them too?
I'm attempting to address a specific type of harm -- that caused by discriminatory policies and practices of the US government. I'm certainly open to studying other types of harm, and other groups harmed aside from black and Native Americans.
  #405  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:23 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Hypotheticals are fine but you do at least owe your idea the courtesy of considering the implications.

Are there any 100% black neighbourhoods? If so and those are the ones you go with then prepare yourself for unrest in the neighbourhoods that are only 99.9% black. Or of course if a few white families are going to prevent that payout by having the temerity to live in a majority black neighbourhood then watch their lives be made a living hell or worse.
Or you could always include those 99.9% areas but just not pay out to those not black enough. Or pay out to the white people as well and stand by for unrest in underprivileged areas that aren't demographically suitable.

I don't think I'm scaremongering here. The above is pretty much guaranteed to play out if you implement any cash reparation scheme.

My suggestion? restated here and echoed by others in the thread is that you abandon any racial component to this at all.
Give support to the poorest areas that need it most. Funding for schools, jobs, medical care, infrastructure. Do it on the basis of need and clearly badge it as a sign of an equal society. If the claim that the black community has been most disadvantaged is true then the bulk of that support will naturally go to the black community without any need to set up divisive racial criteria.
I think this could be a very valid approach, and I'd certainly consider it. But I think the first step of identifying, in great detail, the harm done directly and indirectly to living Americans today, fully acknowledging the US government's responsibility and role in that harm, and apologizing for it in full, is necessary first. Once that is done, we could evaluate multiple proposals for how to make up for this harm, including everything offered in this thread and countless more.
  #406  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:07 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill?

Regards,
Shodan
  #407  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:10 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill?
I don't believe so (since each research project will necessarily require different expertise, I think it would be most prudent to have a different program for each proposal), but I'm open to any arguments to the contrary. If anyone actually supports the bill (as opposed to just playing devil's advocate) and thinks that more groups should be included in HR 40, I'd be interested in hearing their arguments.
  #408  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:43 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill?

Regards,
Shodan
Only if your purpose is to kill the bill.
Is it?
  #409  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:00 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
He's not "illustrating" this, he's just asserting it. Reparations for Japanese-American internees didn't lead to boundless reparations for anyone that asks for it -- in fact, it's led to zero reparations for any other group so far. I'm sure opponents of these past reparations used similar arguments, but it was irrelevant then and it's still irrelevant now -- that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, it made American stronger, better, and more just.

I find the slippery-slope argument unconvincing.
You're right they didnt- yet. But you are using Reparations for Japanese-American internees to justify reparations for Blacks and Native Americans. And no one can deny that women, gays, Chinese, hispanics were disadvantaged too. Ponies for everyone!

You are the one on the slippery slope.
  #410  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:01 PM
Jasmine's Avatar
Jasmine is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
My suggestion? restated here and echoed by others in the thread is that you abandon any racial component to this at all.

Give support to the poorest areas that need it most. Funding for schools, jobs, medical care, infrastructure. Do it on the basis of need and clearly badge it as a sign of an equal society. If the claim that the black community has been most disadvantaged is true then the bulk of that support will naturally go to the black community without any need to set up divisive racial criteria.
Yes, because, as I've already said, there are others to consider besides the Black community. Native Americans absolutely have to be taken into account. Also, there are communities in the heartland where the people were basically sold down the river by corporations wanting to get rich via dirt cheap labor overseas. Many were completely disenfranchised and have never recovered.

If you're going to do this at all, that is the only methodology that I can see that would have a chance to work.
__________________
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."
--Daniel J Boorstin
  #411  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:01 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
For the sake of your own argument, you really should disconnect reparations for Japanese-Americans and African-Americans. As others have pointed out, they are two different things with two different, distinct circumstances and illustrate the fallacy of your argument.....

I pointed this out several times.

But apparently he only has one arrow in his quiver, he has to keep using it.
  #412  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:04 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
......

As I've said before, I'll be ecstatic if the US just decided it was going to fully investigate, document, acknolwedge, and apologize for past discriminatory policies and practices. That hasn't been done, needs to be done, and wouldn't involve paying anyone but researchers and historians. The possibility of going beyond that to actually trying to make up for this harm, in some way, financially, is extremely remote, even if it's crept up a bit lately in polling. ...
Because apologies aint checks. Coates wants checks, and until now, you havent abandoned that crazy idea.

Once the foolish idea of bankrupting the nation and taking all the money from the straight white males has been totally abandoned, we can talk apologies. Heck, even some more college grants and aid to inner cities, sure.
  #413  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:06 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Apparently you've missed that, over and over again, I've been pushing that after the research/study phase, any warranted reparations would start with those living Americans who have been harmed by discriminatory policies and practices (segregation, Redlining, and more). ....
There are some differences -- internment was a direct policy by the federal government, while segregation was a direct policy by state and local governments (tolerated by the federal government), and Redlining was generally private action tolerated or encouraged by the federal government using discriminatory Federal government maps that deliberately downgraded black neighborhoods. ...
And you cant drop Redlining even tho it has been shown that victim could and did sue the banks for those policies- and collected. Redlining has been solved by new laws and the courts.
  #414  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:09 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Because apologies aint checks. Coates wants checks, and until now, you havent abandoned that crazy idea.
Cite that "Coates wants checks" -- or is this just another baseless allegation, like your cite-free vitriolic attacks that Coates is a "scamster" and a "racist"?

Quote:
Once the foolish idea of bankrupting the nation and taking all the money from the straight white males has been totally abandoned, we can talk apologies.
This is just pure straw-man garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
And you cant drop Redlining even tho it has been shown that victim could and did sue the banks for those policies- and collected.
In some cases, but certainly not all. Not even close to most, by my reading.
  #415  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:09 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
The reparations to Japanese Americans was only $20,000. Not much considering the had California real estate taken from them that would be worth millions today.
AFAIK, those assets were frozen, not taken away.
  #416  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:11 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I don't believe so (since each research project will necessarily require different expertise, I think it would be most prudent to have a different program for each proposal), but I'm open to any arguments to the contrary. If anyone actually supports the bill (as opposed to just playing devil's advocate) and thinks that more groups should be included in HR 40, I'd be interested in hearing their arguments.
So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women?

Regards,
Shodan
  #417  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:16 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women?
How would you prioritize the different groups?
  #418  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:18 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn.
The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I'm aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

If you believe any other groups might become "permanent aggrieved underclasses", then I'd be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-24-2019 at 02:19 PM.
  #419  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:23 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women?
Yep.

We can all agree that huge checks wont be coming. But that's what people have been talking about. So, since big checks are impossible, and people expect big checks, then iiandyiiii idea of a study and apology will just lead to a aggrieved black underclass.

Reparations are a bad idea, no matter how you slice them.
  #420  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:27 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
We can all agree that huge checks wont be coming. But that's what people have been talking about. So, since big checks are impossible, and people expect big checks, then iiandyiiii idea of a study and apology will just lead to a aggrieved black underclass.
Excellent take down of another straw man!

I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to "a study and apology". Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-24-2019 at 02:29 PM.
  #421  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:41 PM
UCBearcats is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I'm aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

If you believe any other groups might become "permanent aggrieved underclasses", then I'd be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression.
Do black who have achieved success and wealth deserve reparations or only the ones that have not climbed up by their bootstraps against all odds?
  #422  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:46 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Excellent take down of another straw man!

I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to "a study and apology". Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
How is it negative to think that if you promise people a check for a $1million dollars and instead just say "Oop's we're sorry" they will react poorly? Of course they will, that's human nature.
  #423  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:52 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
How is it negative to think that if you promise people a check for a $1million dollars and instead just say "Oop's we're sorry" they will react poorly? Of course they will, that's human nature.
Since no one has proposed this, then no one will be disappointed.
Problem solved!
  #424  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:57 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Excellent take down of another straw man!

I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to "a study and apology". Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
And arent you the one that is suggesting that if you dont hand out big checks, we will end up with permanently aggrieved black underclass? Do you think so little of your fellow human?
  #425  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:59 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Since no one has proposed this, then no one will be disappointed.
Problem solved!

Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course. But yes, many articles have been written proposing amounts like that, some of whom were linked to in this very thread- if you'd bother to read them.
  #426  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:02 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course.
So Coates proposed a million dollar check...but he didn't actually propose a million dollar check.

Right.
  #427  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:19 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So Coates proposed a million dollar check...but he didn't actually propose a million dollar check.

Right.
Nope, but he did talk about cash reparations, and the figures thrown around on the internet- and linked to right here- do include those figures. Do pay attention, please.
  #428  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:25 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course. But yes, many articles have been written proposing amounts like that, some of whom were linked to in this very thread- if you'd bother to read them.
Let's see a cite, then, with a specific quote, from Coates. Or is this just more baseless bullshit like "scamster" and "racist"? Out of curiosity, why have you made it your mission to spread cite-free vitriolic smears about TNC? Did he steal your lunchbox as a kid or something? I've never seen such baseless, vitriolic, and hateful language from you before.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-24-2019 at 06:26 PM.
  #429  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:30 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
I'd like to back up for a moment and try to explain where I'm coming from. Richard Parker made an excellent post a couple of years ago that does an excellent and thorough job of explaining the progressive position on current disparities in wealth, crime, and other statistics, IMO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Maybe it's worth laying out the basic lefty view of what's going on with black poverty in America.

The story goes like this: Most black people in the US are the descendents of slaves. By design, they could not accumulate wealth of any kind, and even human capital accumulation like literacy was punished. The period following the Civil War was not much better. For decades, if you tried to get married as a black family and live on your own and grow your own crops, you could expect lynching. If you wanted to work outside agriculture, you had to get state permission to do so in many Southern states. If you tried to do side work on Saturday, you were liable to be imprisoned for vagrancy and forced to work for free for white people. Black lives were marked by white plunder punctuated by white terrorism.

Until WWII, the overwhelming majority of black people lived in the South under Jim Crow. In that regime, black wealth accumulation was, by design, rare and extremely difficult. Barriers to education remained high. If you were smart, hard-working, and ambitious, for the most part you became a preacher or a teacher. Even people that escaped (literally fleeing in the middle of the night in many cases), often found themselves property-less in cities where white landlords could charge them higher rents and white employers could pay them lower wages. When you fought for equal treatment, whites would kill your family and burn down your neighborhood. I assume nothing more needs to be said of the period before 1945 to explain why racist laws were why black people were poorer than white people, on average.

That brings us roughly to World War II. So already we're talking about the grandparents of the people who are heads of households today. Even putting aside any discrimination after that period, it would be quite remarkable if in the space of a few generations a few centuries of plunder and terrorism was washed away.

Certainly, only the extraordinary were going to be able to do it under the legal regime that prevailed from 1945 to 1975. The white classes, including the newly-considered white, built their household wealth with, well, houses. They got loans restricted to white people and access to neighborhoods with rising housing prices and restrictive covenants for four decades. Beyond the effect on the ability to develop intergenerational wealth, residential segregation also concentrated poverty (and kept black people with middle class incomes in poor neighborhoods, with all the obstacles that brings from job opportunities to crime). And, of course, Jim Crow persisted in less severe ways for this entire period, including in particular in educational institutions and in many fields like medicine.

That takes us roughly to when the current heads of households were born. You don't even really need to appeal to forms of state discrimination after that period to explain the current disparities. But, in fact, the 1980s and 1990s marked the period when we decided to explode our prison populations and arrest significant proportions of all black men. We decided to keep them in prison longer, offer fewer options for early release, and offer fewer resources while in prison. We policed and arrested black men at rates disproportionate to underlying crime rates, and focused on crimes disproportionately committed by black people while ignoring crimes disproportionately committed by white people. The result was as intended. 20% of Black Floridians are barred from voting. 9% of Black Wisconsin residents aren't allowed to vote, warming Lee Atwater and Steve Bannon's hearts mightily.

And all of that is just discrimination enforced by the state. Indeed, I mostly just touched on the negative discrimination. But there's also the other side of the coin--the billions spent to enrich white people, from race-based work programs, to agricultural universities, to restricted access to the GI Bill, and all the rest. There is also rampant private discrimination by unions, employers, educators, neighborhood associations, and all the rest, continuing through to 2017 (though, thankfully, less in degree than in 1975). Plus, this period of the end of state discrimination is also the period when there has been very little real wage growth. The engines out of poverty that chugged along successfully for three decades have been sputtering for quite some time. Before colleges were desegregated, you could pay for school by working a part-time job. Now, a fulltime job isn't enough.

Wealth accumulation, where people live, the education levels of children--all these social phenomena have momentum. You have to get them going in the right direction, and then give them time to work. The United States hasn't even lifted all the forms of state discrimination, much less private discrimination. And it has made almost no effort to affirmatively lift up the people it plundered for so long.
_____

I don't offer that account because I expect conservative critics to agree with it. But it seems to me that if you want to critique it, you have to understand it. When you say things like, "well the Jews did fine," you betray an ignorance of this history.
So this is the starting point. If you don't agree with this starting point, then it's very unlikely that you're going to feel reparations (or even just the basic research and study proposed in HR 40) are warranted or wise. We could explore that, for anyone who's interested -- what part of this post from RP do you feel is incorrect? If you do agree with it, is there anything you think can or should be done to rectify this situation, if not the kind of study and research in HR 40?
  #430  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:30 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
How would you prioritize the different groups?
I would put those with a legitimate claim to reparations at the front. The rest don't need to be prioritized.

Since most poor people aren't black, iiandyiiii wants to prioritize black poor people ahead of non-black. I was wondering why that is, and especially why non-black poor people are less likely to be aggrieved if they are put to the back of the bus () even though they are also poor and disadvantaged.

If the idea is to avoid an aggrieved underclass, we can't prioritize blacks over whites or Asians or Hispanics. Unless blacks are more likely to be aggrieved than other groups in the underclass. If that is the case, I would like an explanation as to why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii
The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I'm aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.
What are the statistics that lead you to believe that blacks and Native Americans are more likely to be aggrieved than other members of the underclass?

Assume you have a group of ten poor people. Three are black, two are Hispanic, one is Asian, and four are white. What is it about the black people that makes them more aggrieved if their situation is not studied first?

Regards,
Shodan
  #431  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:38 AM
Zeke N. Destroi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not A Real Country
Posts: 1,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
My hypothetical experiment would start with all the living Americans (of a single town/neighborhood) who were harmed by Redlining, segregation, and similar discriminatory and oppresive government policies and practices within living memory. If that were successful, then I'd start looking at the policies and practices that were gone before the lifespan of any living American.
You forgot to say TNC said
__________________
Zeke

Last edited by Zeke N. Destroi; 06-25-2019 at 11:39 AM.
  #432  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:38 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
What are the statistics that lead you to believe that blacks and Native Americans are more likely to be aggrieved than other members of the underclass?
For black Americans, polling and surveys such as the following:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-vary-by-race

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...s-housing.aspx

https://www.opportunityagenda.org/ex...eownership-and

I'm far less confident in my understanding of the history, polling, and cirumstances faced by Native Americans, which is why I generally focus my posts on these issues for black Americans.
  #433  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:40 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke N. Destroi View Post
You forgot to say TNC said
Actually, you singled one of the few ideas I've presented in this thread that is entirely non-derivative.
  #434  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:57 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
For black Americans, polling and surveys such as the following:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-vary-by-race

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...s-housing.aspx

https://www.opportunityagenda.org/ex...eownership-and

I'm far less confident in my understanding of the history, polling, and cirumstances faced by Native Americans, which is why I generally focus my posts on these issues for black Americans.
Actually what I was asking for was comparisons of people in the underclass, which leads you to conclude that black members of the underclass are more likely to say "I am going to be really cheesed off if I don't get some reparations soon" vs. whites/Hispanics/Asians who are also members but say "hey, get to me when you get a chance".

Regards,
Shodan
  #435  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:04 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Actually what I was asking for was comparisons of people in the underclass, which leads you to conclude that black members of the underclass are more likely to say "I am going to be really cheesed off if I don't get some reparations soon" vs. whites/Hispanics/Asians who are also members but say "hey, get to me when you get a chance".



Regards,

Shodan
That is not my conclusion.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
  #436  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:10 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
I didn't ask you for your conclusion, I asked you for your evidence.

Regards,
Shodan
  #437  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:26 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
I didn't ask you for your conclusion, I asked you for your evidence.

Regards,
Shodan
I gave it to you. Then you asked for the evidence for a conclusion I haven't made.

Something about a horse and water, I think.
__________________
My new novel Spindown

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-25-2019 at 03:26 PM.
  #438  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:45 PM
Guinastasia's Avatar
Guinastasia is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 52,709
Does this also depend on one's income? Would rich, famous people like Lebron James or Kanye West get something as well? That strikes me as a little off.
__________________
Itís not you, itís your sports team.
  #439  
Old 06-25-2019, 10:28 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I'm aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

If you believe any other groups might become "permanent aggrieved underclasses", then I'd be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression.
So are you now saying that I don't get a check for the way my great-grandfather was treated because I am not a "permanently aggrieved underclass"? Before you said you wanted to study it.

Or maybe, West Virginians can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps? Is that because we are white or can move?

What makes a person suffer from "widespread discrimination and oppression"? I fear that you are supporting your position by your own definitions. What do you mean by all of the words there: widespread, discrimination, and oppression? Those are so fluid and, once again, subject to any interpretation.
  #440  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:01 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
So are you now saying that I don't get a check for the way my great-grandfather was treated because I am not a "permanently aggrieved underclass"? Before you said you wanted to study it.



Or maybe, West Virginians can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps? Is that because we are white or can move?



What makes a person suffer from "widespread discrimination and oppression"? I fear that you are supporting your position by your own definitions. What do you mean by all of the words there: widespread, discrimination, and oppression? Those are so fluid and, once again, subject to any interpretation.
I'm not sure what your first two paragraphs are referring to. I'm open to considering any arguments for study and research you think are warranted.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
  #441  
Old 06-26-2019, 07:39 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I gave it to you. Then you asked for the evidence for a conclusion I haven't made.
So you are backing off from this -
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii
The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I'm aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.
because you don't have any statistics that would show them to be in more danger of being a permanently aggrieved underclass than anyone else.

Regards,
Shodan
  #442  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:06 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So you are backing off from this - because you don't have any statistics that would show them to be in more danger of being a permanently aggrieved underclass than anyone else.



Regards,

Shodan
No, I am not backing off from that position.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
  #443  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:09 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Any skeptics want to respond to post 429? That's the starting point, and I think it's an area that hasn't been discussed much in this thread.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
  #444  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:17 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'd like to back up for a moment and try to explain where I'm coming from. Richard Parker made an excellent post a couple of years ago that does an excellent and thorough job of explaining the progressive position on current disparities in wealth, crime, and other statistics, IMO:



So this is the starting point. If you don't agree with this starting point, then it's very unlikely that you're going to feel reparations (or even just the basic research and study proposed in HR 40) are warranted or wise. We could explore that, for anyone who's interested -- what part of this post from RP do you feel is incorrect? If you do agree with it, is there anything you think can or should be done to rectify this situation, if not the kind of study and research in HR 40?
The study and research should be financed by private groups. Why do you insist on hurtling a barrier that could be avoided altogether?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 06-26-2019 at 08:19 AM.
  #445  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:32 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The study and research should be financed by private groups. Why do you insist on hurtling a barrier that could be avoided altogether?
I'm in favor of that too, but that wouldn't address a critical part -- the government acknowledging the harm done, apologizing for it, and then exploring options on how some of this harm might be reasonably addressed.
  #446  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:40 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm in favor of that too, but that wouldn't address a critical part -- the government acknowledging the harm done, apologizing for it, and then exploring options on how some of this harm might be reasonably addressed.
Options can be explored by private means. This is what happens all the time. A think tank comes up with policies and presents them to lawmakers. If the study finds that harm has been done, maybe the govt will pass the recommended policies.
  #447  
Old 06-26-2019, 09:17 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Options can be explored by private means. This is what happens all the time. A think tank comes up with policies and presents them to lawmakers. If the study finds that harm has been done, maybe the govt will pass the recommended policies.
Sounds good to me. I am in favor of this, and if I won the lottery, would donate a big chunk of my money to such a project.
  #448  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:19 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'd like to back up for a moment and try to explain where I'm coming from. Richard Parker made an excellent post a couple of years ago that does an excellent and thorough job of explaining the progressive position on current disparities in wealth, crime, and other statistics, IMO:



So this is the starting point. If you don't agree with this starting point, then it's very unlikely that you're going to feel reparations (or even just the basic research and study proposed in HR 40) are warranted or wise. We could explore that, for anyone who's interested -- what part of this post from RP do you feel is incorrect? If you do agree with it, is there anything you think can or should be done to rectify this situation, if not the kind of study and research in HR 40?
Assuming RP's premise is true, it fails to account for the fact that most whites have not accumulated wealth throughout the generations but assumes that blacks would have done so. An argument for reparations also makes this assumption which is overwhelmingly incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm not sure what your first two paragraphs are referring to. I'm open to considering any arguments for study and research you think are warranted.
I'm referring to my earlier post about white WV coal miners who were paid in scrip, forced to live in company housing and forbidden from unionizing as was my great-grandfather. Under RP's assumption, my great-grandfather would have, if not for the injustice, began accumulating wealth which would have been augmented by the work of my grandfather and father and thus I would have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth.

Again with the study and research. You claimed that you only supported reparations for a situation that would prevent a "permanent aggrieved underclass." WV could possibly qualify as such depending on our definition. In your view, does that fact that my great-grandfather was free to move to say, Kansas, and become a farmer make it his own fault for staying in such a shitty job?

What are the contours of the class? Since whites are not a permanent aggrieved underclass, in your view should I not be eligible for reparations, even though I suffered similar economic harm (under RP's view)?
  #449  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:47 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Assuming RP's premise is true, it fails to account for the fact that most whites have not accumulated wealth throughout the generations but assumes that blacks would have done so.
In my understanding of wealth statistics, white Americans have significantly more wealth than black Americans, both on average and by the median.

Quote:
I'm referring to my earlier post about white WV coal miners who were paid in scrip, forced to live in company housing and forbidden from unionizing as was my great-grandfather. Under RP's assumption, my great-grandfather would have, if not for the injustice, began accumulating wealth which would have been augmented by the work of my grandfather and father and thus I would have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth.

Again with the study and research. You claimed that you only supported reparations for a situation that would prevent a "permanent aggrieved underclass." WV could possibly qualify as such depending on our definition. In your view, does that fact that my great-grandfather was free to move to say, Kansas, and become a farmer make it his own fault for staying in such a shitty job?

What are the contours of the class? Since whites are not a permanent aggrieved underclass, in your view should I not be eligible for reparations, even though I suffered similar economic harm (under RP's view)?
I would have no problem with advocating for studying this. I don't know very much about it, but it sounds like an interesting topic worthy of further study.
  #450  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:54 AM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is offline
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Any skeptics want to respond to post 429? That's the starting point, and I think it's an area that hasn't been discussed much in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
So this is the starting point. If you don't agree with this starting point, then it's very unlikely that you're going to feel reparations (or even just the basic research and study proposed in HR 40) are warranted or wise. We could explore that, for anyone who's interested -- what part of this post from RP do you feel is incorrect? If you do agree with it, is there anything you think can or should be done to rectify this situation, if not the kind of study and research in HR 40?

I think it was well written when I first read it, and continues to be now. I still don't think reparations are wise. This idea that we need to research so we can right all the wrongs of history, that the government needs to apologize, etc. I find pretty weak. Inigyo Montoya doesn't want an apology, or land, or money. What was taken cannot be repaid like that. Unless you are willing and advocating surrendering the country to those so aggrieved, then it's not principle that is being appealed to.

It's not that reparations were never justified. The argument in favor has merit, but the magnitude of that merit decreases with each passing year. It was strongest immediately after the civil war I'd say, when you had those directly impacted, and those directly responsible. With the next generation, the support fades in some way, and so on. In 100 years, all other things being equal, would it still be acceptable to create some kind of transfer payment rubric on the basis of horrific treatment 100 or 200 years past? What about in 500 years or 1000 years?

If there are continuing wrongs, continuing actions that support redress, then those things should be the basis for recompense. At some point the ghosts of the past need to be laid to rest.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017