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  #51  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Do you have evidence that these sorts of sexual assaults are the result of mental illness? Most experts I'm aware of don't feel that's the case, and that the vast majority of such assaults are performed by youths without significant mental illness. Antisocial personality traits, yes. But that's not a mental illness, nor is it amenable to modern psychiatric treatment. Counselling, sure. But not Pshrink meds.
I bow to you. You prolly know way more than I do about it. But if it were my son, I would want to know if he has a personality disorder or some psychosis that could be treated. And counselling, for sure.
  #52  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:23 PM
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If you found out he had attempted to rape a 15 year old girl?

Yes, I am referring to the Kavanaugh case.

But really. Lets say you are a parent of a 17 year old boy. You find out thru sources he did it, you confront him.
I guess there's no way not to distort the discussion by it becoming about Kavanaugh, so why not just invite it. But it does heavily distort the discussion. It superimposes the largely politically motivated* perception of that case.

In a realistic general hypothetical case the reasonable decision diagram is basically different than you imply. There's a 0.01% chance you would know it was an 'attempted rape', without a complaint from the girl and legal meanings of words are obviously the relevant ones to bringing matters to the police. So stage one is to give the girl and her family time to exercise their right to make it a police matter, or not. If they do, then deal honestly with the police and demand your son also does, according to a lawyer's advice whether to speak or remain silent. If it becomes a police matter you see it through on those terms until it's adjudicated before considering what else to do.

If there is no complaint to the police from the girl or her family, and assuming you are reasonably sure that's not due to explicit intimidation by your son or others, then it's a serious matter that something untoward happened (again almost no chance in real life cases you'd have a reliable picture of the specifics) but in day to day real life, as opposed to national political theater, crimes are mainly defined by victim complaint. So you would not know of 'attempted rape'. You'd know of various misbehavior (underage drinking, disrespect of girls etc) short of criminal. Again the exception would be strong evidence of intimidation by your son, friends or fellow gang members of the girl not to tell of a crime. But that also does not factor into the K case as far as we know now.

*either difference in perception between US 'left' and 'right' or non-US posters (I've noticed a few already so far) who might or might not have a preconception based on politics; a few Americans might not either but are likely far outnumbered by those just pretending not to or not fully aware of their own bias.

Last edited by Corry El; 09-19-2018 at 04:27 PM.
  #53  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:53 PM
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I don't have kids myself, but I have a nephew whom I love as much as if he were my own, so...

I also bring a legal perspective from years of working as a judge's assistant inside courtrooms.

Lastly, I have been the victim of similar attacks and have empathy for how a victim feels about it.

I agree with Rittersport regarding public sex offender registries. I've seen instances where a young person's life was indeed ruined due to the lifetime registration requirement. Maybe things have changed since my years in the game and there is now a carve-out for younger persons (particularly with respect to statutory rape), but if not, then this would sure be a concern.

Apart from that, I agree that the child should suffer the full consequences of the law if the victim chooses to pursue that. I would work hard to pursue a diversion-type plea arrangement -- one where the charges could be dismissed or lessened if my child successfully completed terms of probation.

Here's the thing that bothers me most about the Kavanaugh scenario as it is alleged and where in my opinion it stands out as something beyond teenage "horseplay," as it has been characterized by some. Pushing a girl into a room for privacy with a cohort, covering her mouth so she can't scream... there is an element of premeditation in this scenario. It's not like a mash session that just got out of hand (not that this is ok, either). The premeditation is what makes it especially creepy. It implies an element of sociopathy that I would want evaluated.

I would have serious concerns about a child who believed this was acceptable behavior. Top priority would be counseling for him, along with significant punishment/consequences for his inexcusable actions, painful though it might be for me to endure.
  #54  
Old 09-19-2018, 10:05 PM
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In your opinion would it be best to reach out to the daughter? Or let her reach out to you?
This is messy situation. You're trying to balance her privacy, with her safety. She's not going to reach out. It's not safe to assume that's she's told her parents nor that she wants to do so, so contacting them is not a good idea unless there is reason to fear for her health. I think you should invite her to meet in person, if it can be arranged, in a public space. Invite her to come alone, or bring anyone of her choosing. Stress it will be the boy's mother only. Let the girl pick the spot. A phone conversation would be the second choice, and a note as the third choice.

There are some tricky issues here, regarding state laws and her age. Some states will have mandatory reporting about endangered children for certain people in certain professions. Further, if she has been injured, then she may need medical help whether or not she wants it.

Last edited by Sunny Daze; 09-19-2018 at 10:06 PM.
  #55  
Old 09-19-2018, 11:02 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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I would have serious concerns about a child who believed this was acceptable behavior. Top priority would be counseling for him, along with significant punishment/consequences for his inexcusable actions, painful though it might be for me to endure.
A teenager (probably a boy but I'm sure there are girls, most likely lesbians, who would also think it's OK) who doesn't think they did anything wrong quite likely has at least one parent who sees nothing wrong with this kind of behavior, and probably has a history of other inappropriate behaviors.

I'm the same age as BK, and everyone knew whose parents kept a well-stocked liquor cabinet and didn't ask questions when things turned up missing, or had older siblings who would buy booze for them.
  #56  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:26 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Originally Posted by wonky View Post
That "attempted rape" is used in a legal sense that has a specific definition in no way means that the phrase is solely a legal one. Just as "murder" has a legal definition and yet I and others use it all the time.

Like I said, I'll let you know when I intend the legal meaning. Don't you worry!
There is no non-legal meaning for that word. Attempted rape is a very specific legal term. You meant it in the legal sense because it doesn't have any other senses. When you say murder, you also mean it in the legal sense, unless it's clearly metaphorical such as "the singer really murdered that note". Trying to pretend that rape means [whatever you'd prefer it to mean right this minute] is not helping anyone, least of all you.

It's essential (not optional) that legal terminology keep its legal meaning in every context; otherwise, conversation is a terrible confusion.

Using a legal term at all, constitutes giving notice of intending the legal meaning.
  #57  
Old 09-20-2018, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
If you found out he had attempted to rape a 15 year old girl?

Yes, I am referring to the Kavanaugh case.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Any 17 year old that would behave the way Kavanaugh did
Did I miss something? Kavanaugh has been accused but not convicted. It hasn't even got as far as an arrest, let alone court. And I've just read on the BBC that his accuser 'needs more time'.

Are you really sure that in your desperate hate of Trump you haven't fallen for a lie?

Last edited by Quartz; 09-20-2018 at 02:46 AM.
  #58  
Old 09-20-2018, 06:51 AM
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Did I miss something? Kavanaugh has been accused but not convicted. It hasn't even got as far as an arrest, let alone court.
The OP's question was inspired by the Kavanaugh accusation, but it isn't really about that, and if the accusation were totally unfounded it wouldn't change the question.

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There is no non-legal meaning for that word. Attempted rape is a very specific legal term.
I've been wondering about this, so I'll go ahead and ask: Is "attempted rape" really a legal term? Certainly, a person who did the kind of thing Kavanaugh is accused of doing could be changed with (sexual) assault; but is "attempted rape" something a person can be legally charged with, and if so, how is it defined?
  #59  
Old 09-20-2018, 08:56 AM
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I've been wondering about this, so I'll go ahead and ask: Is "attempted rape" really a legal term? Certainly, a person who did the kind of thing Kavanaugh is accused of doing could be changed with (sexual) assault; but is "attempted rape" something a person can be legally charged with, and if so, how is it defined?
Depending on the jurisdiction, "rape" might be a possible charge. Some don't use the term rape but use some variation on "sexual assault."

And some might not define specific "attempt" crimes, while others would, especially for the biggies like murder or rape.

For example, Maryland currently has a crime "Attempted rape in the first degree": https://law.justia.com/codes/marylan...btitle-3/3-309

Quote:
3-309. Attempted rape in the first degree.

(a) Prohibited.- A person may not attempt to commit rape in the first degree.

(b) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding life
  #60  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:07 AM
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I am NOT a parent, but children do need to learn that actions have consequences. It should start the first time they act up in public, and continue throughout their childhood.

Don't tell me 17 year old boys don't know that sexual assault is wrong. He should be made to face the legal consequences of his actions, instead of joining the "Yeah, but" crowd that keeps our legal system in business.

I remember a Montel Williams show about a man who impregnated a 12 year old, and then blamed her for his actions (She dressed like Jessica Simpson and had a crush on me, and was always sitting on my lap). Montel told him to cut the crap, and that if that had been his 2 year old daughter, Montel would be in prison and the rapist would be in the ground.
  #61  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:22 PM
Steve McQwark Steve McQwark is online now
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Don't tell me 17 year old boys don't know that sexual assault is wrong. He should be made to face the legal consequences of his actions, instead of joining the "Yeah, but" crowd that keeps our legal system in business.
I haven't followed any of the R-said, D-said discussions about Kavanaugh, but is anyone really saying 17-year-olds don't understand this? My sons are 15 and 17 and when we discussed this situation, neither of them had any problem identifying the situation as sexual assault. I wouldn't have had any problems identifying it as assault when I was 17.

As for the hypothetical, my wife and I raised our sons to be respectful of everyone, and I have specifically talked to them about always being aware that what they are doing with a girl is consensual. Maybe I'm naive, but I just can't believe something like this comes out of nowhere. I would think a man who would do something like this has already shown signs of entitlement or considering other people to be things he can use. Something like this would be so out of character for my sons that I have a hard time imagining what I would do. I guess I would start with a discussion of why they did what they did. Then, depending on what I heard, some kind of counseling - alcohol or drug or whatever else was enabling them to feel like they could do something like that. Then, I would listen to the counselors as to what other actions needed to be taken.
  #62  
Old 09-20-2018, 02:51 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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I don't have kids myself, but I have a nephew whom I love as much as if he were my own, so...

I also bring a legal perspective from years of working as a judge's assistant inside courtrooms.

Lastly, I have been the victim of similar attacks and have empathy for how a victim feels about it.

I agree with Rittersport regarding public sex offender registries. I've seen instances where a young person's life was indeed ruined due to the lifetime registration requirement. Maybe things have changed since my years in the game and there is now a carve-out for younger persons (particularly with respect to statutory rape), but if not, then this would sure be a concern.

Apart from that, I agree that the child should suffer the full consequences of the law if the victim chooses to pursue that. I would work hard to pursue a diversion-type plea arrangement -- one where the charges could be dismissed or lessened if my child successfully completed terms of probation.

Here's the thing that bothers me most about the Kavanaugh scenario as it is alleged and where in my opinion it stands out as something beyond teenage "horseplay," as it has been characterized by some. Pushing a girl into a room for privacy with a cohort, covering her mouth so she can't scream... there is an element of premeditation in this scenario. It's not like a mash session that just got out of hand (not that this is ok, either). The premeditation is what makes it especially creepy. It implies an element of sociopathy that I would want evaluated.

I would have serious concerns about a child who believed this was acceptable behavior. Top priority would be counseling for him, along with significant punishment/consequences for his inexcusable actions, painful though it might be for me to endure.
Thank you for your professional insight and input.
  #63  
Old 09-20-2018, 03:13 PM
Rushgeekgirl Rushgeekgirl is offline
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There is not a chance in hell I wouldn't report this to the police, with or without him by my side. I would do the same if my DAUGHTER attempted to rape someone, regardless of either of their ages. I wouldn't cover it up, I wouldn't talk to the victim or their parents (For what, to make sure they didn't press charges?) and I wouldn't hit anyone. I would do the right thing and report it.

I can't believe the responses I'm seeing here. Is this really how rational people act in regards to rape? No wonder we have this culture of rape acceptance. I would like to think my reaction is rational but then I was a 15 year old rape victim. I was also a 12 year old rape victim, and a 6-8 year old rape victim. I have a daughter who was drugged and brutally raped at a party and another daughter who was raped by three teens when she was six years old. I would have to take the needs of the VICTIM in to consideration, even if I loved the person who attempted to rape the victim. Even if it was my own offspring. It's the right thing to do, don't you think? It's not up to me to punish my offspring for a criminal offense. It's up to me to do the right thing and let the court decide that.
  #64  
Old 09-20-2018, 03:53 PM
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There is not a chance in hell I wouldn't report this to the police, with or without him by my side. I would do the same if my DAUGHTER attempted to rape someone, regardless of either of their ages. I wouldn't cover it up, I wouldn't talk to the victim or their parents (For what, to make sure they didn't press charges?) and I wouldn't hit anyone. I would do the right thing and report it.

I can't believe the responses I'm seeing here. Is this really how rational people act in regards to rape? No wonder we have this culture of rape acceptance. I would like to think my reaction is rational but then I was a 15 year old rape victim. I was also a 12 year old rape victim, and a 6-8 year old rape victim. I have a daughter who was drugged and brutally raped at a party and another daughter who was raped by three teens when she was six years old. I would have to take the needs of the VICTIM in to consideration, even if I loved the person who attempted to rape the victim. Even if it was my own offspring. It's the right thing to do, don't you think? It's not up to me to punish my offspring for a criminal offense. It's up to me to do the right thing and let the court decide that.
I had a female classmate from a large family who kept telling me that she wanted her brothers to rape me, so I would get pregnant and have to leave school. She would say this in front of teachers, who would tell me, "Just ignore her" and as for my parents, they told me that whatever I was doing to her to make her want to say that to me, I'd better stop because it was embarrassing to them. This family's kids were all very intelligent, musically talented, athletic, and physically attractive - and most of them were also using drugs and alcohol, and sexually active, before they were in junior high school, which makes me wonder now if something untoward was going on at home. (Probably.)

I later told a therapist, "I hope she gets gang-raped and gets pregnant from it" and quickly added, "No, not really. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Even if a woman did deserve to get raped, which she never does, the baby is completely innocent."

When I was a senior in high school, my "best friend" turned on me, and I never found out why. However, I think I'm the one who came out ahead, because she was later hanging out with kids who, along with her, cut classes, got drunk at lunch, etc., and as for her being sexually active? She was the kind of girl who would get in a van with a bunch of boys, who would tag-team her. By all accounts, she stopped doing this when the vehicle was returning to town, and the boys who weren't driving opened the back door and threw her out on the highway. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when she explained that to her parents, and good grief, if I knew about it, certainly they would have found out what she had really done. Oh, and if my daughter was doing something like that, she would have been in very big trouble, and my son would have been in even bigger trouble.
  #65  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:00 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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Maybe I'm naive, but I just can't believe something like this comes out of nowhere. I would think a man who would do something like this has already shown signs of entitlement or considering other people to be things he can use.
Agreed X 100,000, but like I said before, parents who disregard this kind of behavior are probably that way themselves.

I'm sure everyone here can tell a story of this or that person about whom everyone said, "Do not allow yourself to be alone with them." However, that doesn't help with someone shoves a person into a room, like these guys allegedly did, or their victim-dar goes off and they target someone who doesn't know them, or can't defend themselves.

There is a lot of overlap between the above paragraph, and that house in every neighborhood where the kids are not allowed to go because of someone else who lives there. For example, there was a boy I grew up with who was Very Bad News, and also the son of a Federal judge, and when my younger sister became friends with his sister, I told our parents to never, ever let her go over there, even if they knew he wasn't there. They had already decided on this, and had heard it from other people. I'm still waiting for the day when I fire up my computer, or turn on CNN, and find out that he's been arrested for some kind of white-collar crime and then gets link to all the missing prostitutes, KWIM?

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 09-20-2018 at 04:01 PM.
  #66  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:16 PM
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I graduated from HS in 1981, and my school's yearbook didn't allow things like this. And "Devil's Triangle" sure sounds like some GAY behavior to me. (Two men and a woman - clutches pearls.) Younger Dopers need to understand that homosexual activity was not viewed the same way back then as it is now, assuming it's true.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...e/65-595626391

On a similar note, I remember being puzzled about Obama being part of the "Choomba Gang" (high achieving pot smokers) and wondering how that got in his HS yearbook.
  #67  
Old 09-21-2018, 12:16 PM
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To me, it would be extremely important to know the details of the case. What exactly happened? Did he hit her or choke her? Did he forcibly touch her privates under her clothing or try to put his hand or penis inside here? This is a much different scenario than a drunken teenager trying to kiss a girl and pressing himself up against her.

Both can be traumatic to the girl, but the first scenario shows a tendency towards violence and rape, and the second is more a case of rampant hormones fueled by alcohol.

Unfortunately, if a person is predisposed towards rape and violence, he is not safe in being in society. At the very least he needs treatment, which he's not likely to get in jail. But at least he's unable to continue to progress while incarcerated.

We don't know all the details of the Kavanaugh case, yet many people seem to be lined up along political parties as to guilt or innocence.
  #68  
Old 09-21-2018, 04:31 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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There is not a chance in hell I wouldn't report this to the police, with or without him by my side. I would do the same if my DAUGHTER attempted to rape someone, regardless of either of their ages. I wouldn't cover it up, I wouldn't talk to the victim or their parents (For what, to make sure they didn't press charges?) and I wouldn't hit anyone. I would do the right thing and report it.

I can't believe the responses I'm seeing here. Is this really how rational people act in regards to rape? No wonder we have this culture of rape acceptance. I would like to think my reaction is rational but then I was a 15 year old rape victim. I was also a 12 year old rape victim, and a 6-8 year old rape victim. I have a daughter who was drugged and brutally raped at a party and another daughter who was raped by three teens when she was six years old. I would have to take the needs of the VICTIM in to consideration, even if I loved the person who attempted to rape the victim. Even if it was my own offspring. It's the right thing to do, don't you think? It's not up to me to punish my offspring for a criminal offense. It's up to me to do the right thing and let the court decide that.
I think it also depends upon the situation.

For example, the boys who raped your 6 year old daughter, I would want them hanged (and I hope they were). Now in other cases where say your son says one thing happened and the girl says another - whom do you believe?
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:33 PM
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Agreed X 100,000, but like I said before, parents who disregard this kind of behavior are probably that way themselves.

I'm sure everyone here can tell a story of this or that person about whom everyone said, "Do not allow yourself to be alone with them." However, that doesn't help with someone shoves a person into a room, like these guys allegedly did, or their victim-dar goes off and they target someone who doesn't know them, or can't defend themselves.

There is a lot of overlap between the above paragraph, and that house in every neighborhood where the kids are not allowed to go because of someone else who lives there. For example, there was a boy I grew up with who was Very Bad News, and also the son of a Federal judge, and when my younger sister became friends with his sister, I told our parents to never, ever let her go over there, even if they knew he wasn't there. They had already decided on this, and had heard it from other people. I'm still waiting for the day when I fire up my computer, or turn on CNN, and find out that he's been arrested for some kind of white-collar crime and then gets link to all the missing prostitutes, KWIM?
I cannot believe back then how many parents would just allow their kids to have these big booze parties (House Parties) unsupervised. Nowadays parents can be charged if they allow underage drinking on their property or if assaults occurred. These things happen much less now.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:36 PM
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I graduated from HS in 1981, and my school's yearbook didn't allow things like this. And "Devil's Triangle" sure sounds like some GAY behavior to me. (Two men and a woman - clutches pearls.) Younger Dopers need to understand that homosexual activity was not viewed the same way back then as it is now, assuming it's true.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...e/65-595626391

On a similar note, I remember being puzzled about Obama being part of the "Choomba Gang" (high achieving pot smokers) and wondering how that got in his HS yearbook.
I wonder, where were the parents in all this? Why were they allowing the keg parties on their property?

What I have been reading is the school had gone way downhill with a booze/party/sex culture and it was a matter of time before something like this happened.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:51 PM
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I cannot believe back then how many parents would just allow their kids to have these big booze parties (House Parties) unsupervised. Nowadays parents can be charged if they allow underage drinking on their property or if assaults occurred. These things happen much less now.
Because they wanted their kids to be "popular", I guess. The aforementioned judge's son allowed him to have keggers as early as 7th grade. That is not a typo.

In the summer between 11th and 12th grade, the school band went to Hawaii. I did not go for reasons I won't go into here; my mother went in my place as a chaperone so we wouldn't lose all the money we had paid into it. The decision I made not to go was one I have never regretted, in large part because the chaperones were acting worse than the kids, and one of the things was indeed buying booze for kids. Nowadays, that would get the parents arrested and the kids sent home C.O.D.

When my brother took the same trip in 1983, and my sister a few years after that (can't recall exactly when), the no-alcohol and drugs thing was enforced.

And when my sister was in high school, my parents went out of town for the weekend, and had her stay with a trusted family friend, with no access to a car. I was in a club that took turns meeting in people's houses, and because my place wasn't big enough to host a gathering, I asked my parents if I could have one there, and they said I could, but not to tell my sister because she wouldn't be very happy about it. Of course, the plans she had for a party went belly-up when our parents heard about them, and they had to tell her, "It would be kind of hard for you to have a party on Saturday night, because NWH is going to have one." Yeah, and in my case, I knew who was going to be there, and that once the ashtrays were emptied and the folding chairs put away, you wouldn't be able to tell anyone had been there. My parents did tell the neighbors what I would be doing, and they had no problem with it.
  #72  
Old 09-21-2018, 06:59 PM
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Quoth RitterSport:

I'd like to believe I'd do 1, but I doubt I would in real life. When it comes to my own kids, I think I would do almost anything to protect them.
I would, too, which is exactly why I would choose option 1. Sometimes, protecting those you love means protecting them from themselves.
  #73  
Old 09-22-2018, 07:28 AM
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I would, too, which is exactly why I would choose option 1. Sometimes, protecting those you love means protecting them from themselves.
I understand your meta-point about tough love, etc., but sometimes protecting those you love first means keeping them out of jail and avoiding a life-time scarlet-letter style sex offender status.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's what I would do if my own child were at risk of going to prison and being labeled for life.

This thread is very difficult for me, since I do have a son around that age and I know (or, I believe) that he would never do such a thing. I'd like to believe he would actually step in to prevent such a thing if given the opportunity. So, I'm being asked to posit that that person I know and love were so accused. It's hard to wrap my mind about it, because it really hits home.

If jail time and sex offender status were off the table, we'd put him into counseling, pay for her counseling if she wanted it, probably move away. But, if those things were an actual risk, as I mentioned, I'd probably do whatever I could to keep him out.
  #74  
Old 09-22-2018, 07:30 AM
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I cannot believe back then how many parents would just allow their kids to have these big booze parties (House Parties) unsupervised. Nowadays parents can be charged if they allow underage drinking on their property or if assaults occurred. These things happen much less now.
You say this based on what? I have teenage and former teenage kids and there seemed to be plenty of opportunities to go somewhere to drink if they were so inclined.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:02 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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He would admit everything, apologize for everything, make restitution, perform charity work for womens' causes, get therapy, pay whatever juvenile penalty is on the table, beg forgiveness from the victims (everything Brett Kavanaugh has not done, and will never do).

I would do all this hoping he doesn't end up on a lifetime sex offender registry, and minimize any mark on his permanent criminal record. If he's well and truly rehabilitated (rehabilitating) and repentant while a juvenile, I see no reason it should follow him around adulthood.

Of course this is just for an attempted rape. If it's a completed rape then that's an extra level of harm and it would be harder to be charitable. I don't even want to think about that.

Note to self, work extra hard to teach my kid about boundaries, consent, and respecting women.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 09-22-2018 at 08:03 AM.
  #76  
Old 09-22-2018, 09:26 AM
Corry El Corry El is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I think it also depends upon the situation.

....Now in other cases where say your son says one thing happened and the girl says another - whom do you believe?
But your original post seemed to assume, highly unrealistically, that the parent somehow knows it was 'attempted rape' without any mention of the police being involved already. Kind of strange turn around now. Of course in 99%+ of cases if the girl/family has not filed a complaint with the police the parent of the boy would not know anything really bad might have happened, and even a criminal complaint doesn't establish fact. Maybe parents who have video surveillance set up where their kids party? Or some other strange circumstance, but too unlikely to be a useful hypothetical. Life in general doesn't work on the basis of what you'd do based on knowledge of the all-seeing eye.

In any normal circumstance a parents' knowledge of a possible criminal act by their kind is going to be via the police knocking on the door. In which case you tell your kid not to lie to the police, you don't lie to the police yourself, but get a lawyer before either of you say anything and follow the lawyer's advice.

I assume the virtue signalling about sexual allegations by girls against boys being a special exception to this basic rule of common sense and responsible parenting would not withstand reality in the case of almost any actual parent, of sound mind. And a number of the responses have been 'I don't have kids but [what follows is therefore meaningless]'

It's unlikely you are going to *know* that your kid committed a crime, and extremely unlikely you'd know how serious a crime in an ambiguous situation (groping over clothes v. attempted rape, maybe in the boy's mind rape *was* the intention, but the kid is going to tell his parent rape was his final intention but he failed because the girl got away? that's a ridiculous scenario, the parent is just not going to know that).

Last edited by Corry El; 09-22-2018 at 09:28 AM.
  #77  
Old 09-22-2018, 03:02 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
But your original post seemed to assume, highly unrealistically, that the parent somehow knows it was 'attempted rape' without any mention of the police being involved already. Kind of strange turn around now. Of course in 99%+ of cases if the girl/family has not filed a complaint with the police the parent of the boy would not know anything really bad might have happened, and even a criminal complaint doesn't establish fact. Maybe parents who have video surveillance set up where their kids party? Or some other strange circumstance, but too unlikely to be a useful hypothetical. Life in general doesn't work on the basis of what you'd do based on knowledge of the all-seeing eye.

In any normal circumstance a parents' knowledge of a possible criminal act by their kind is going to be via the police knocking on the door. In which case you tell your kid not to lie to the police, you don't lie to the police yourself, but get a lawyer before either of you say anything and follow the lawyer's advice.

I assume the virtue signalling about sexual allegations by girls against boys being a special exception to this basic rule of common sense and responsible parenting would not withstand reality in the case of almost any actual parent, of sound mind. And a number of the responses have been 'I don't have kids but [what follows is therefore meaningless]'

It's unlikely you are going to *know* that your kid committed a crime, and extremely unlikely you'd know how serious a crime in an ambiguous situation (groping over clothes v. attempted rape, maybe in the boy's mind rape *was* the intention, but the kid is going to tell his parent rape was his final intention but he failed because the girl got away? that's a ridiculous scenario, the parent is just not going to know that).
You make a great point. My original OP was flawed in that most likely you would hear about this from another source, your son will deny it, and so now you are left with who to believe?

BTW, its not that people will out and out lie. Well sometimes they do. But sometimes, especially if alcohol was involved, ideas get into their heads.
  #78  
Old 09-22-2018, 03:05 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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One thing I think we can all agree on is that a person who thinks this kind of behavior is OK is not going to admit it except in a place where they are with like-minded people, and this is definitely not one of them.
  #79  
Old 09-22-2018, 03:22 PM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by TRC4941 View Post
But.....I was in high school from 1976-1979. When I look back, there were many boys that could have been arrested for sexual abuse or assault (and they were usually the BMOC's). Teenage boys would push the limits and girls were too afraid or shy to say "no" and just went along with it. It happened all the time during outdoor parties, after dances, parking at makeout spots. A lot of the time alcohol was involved. Back then it was just the way it was. (And no, it wasn't right) I don't ever remember any girls coming forward other than talking among themselves. The boys bragged about it in the locker room. I wonder now with the Me Too Movement if any of those men think about those high school days and wonder if they're going to get called out.
I hope they all do. They need to think back to that night of the prom and they almost got into Mary Jane's pants if only she hadn't found the door handle and could run so fast. I want it to gnaw at them. Does she remember; does she know where I am; am I about to get a letter from some lawyer. If they haven't the courage to lay it out on the table, I want it to haunt them into their grave.

It might have been "the way things were" back then but it wasn't right, and you don't get a pass because you weren't the only one doing it.
  #80  
Old 09-22-2018, 04:15 PM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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1). Turn him in and let him sink or swim on his own.
  #81  
Old 09-22-2018, 05:37 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRC4941 View Post
This is such a tough topic. Of course, sexual assault, rape, sexual abuse, etc. is awful and should never be minimized.

But.....I was in high school from 1976-1979. When I look back, there were many boys that could have been arrested for sexual abuse or assault (and they were usually the BMOC's). Teenage boys would push the limits and girls were too afraid or shy to say "no" and just went along with it. It happened all the time during outdoor parties, after dances, parking at makeout spots. A lot of the time alcohol was involved. Back then it was just the way it was. (And no, it wasn't right) I don't ever remember any girls coming forward other than talking among themselves. The boys bragged about it in the locker room. I wonder now with the Me Too Movement if any of those men think about those high school days and wonder if they're going to get called out.
A lot of locker room talk is just that - talk - but if the BMOCs and BWOCs were openly inviting girls from the special ed classes to their parties, and taking Polaroids, which happened at my high school and everyone knew about it, that's another story altogether.
  #82  
Old 09-22-2018, 07:11 PM
Si Amigo Si Amigo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
If you found out he had attempted to rape a 15 year old girl?

Yes, I am referring to the Kavanaugh case.

But really. Lets say you are a parent of a 17 year old boy. You find out thru sources he did it, you confront him. He becomes angry at first but then breaks down sobbing that he did it and he is now really, really, sorry.
I would consult with a lawyer and then consider the lawyers advice. If the police didn't show up with a warrant I might suspect that my son was over reacting to a teenage incident and that maybe nothing bad really happened, just teenagers going through growing pains and learning how to properly behave themselves socially. I would reach out to the family and ask if they had heard of any recent incident and if they had any concerns with my son being around their daughter.

I don't think that I would go out of my way to have my son prosecuted if the girl or her family were not pressing the issue. I would make sure that my son was aware (as he obviously was when he told me) that this sort of behavior was unacceptable and that he had damn well learn from it. An apology to the girl would be in order since he feels guilt about, that would be the first step and perhaps the final step. A teenage boy apologizing to anyone in a timely manner is a big deal to them and could mean a lot to the girl as well. Could save her from years of painful memories and let her move on.

Last edited by Si Amigo; 09-22-2018 at 07:12 PM.
  #83  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:27 PM
Mtgman Mtgman is offline
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I've always told my kids I wouldn't shield them from the consequences of their actions. I'll walk beside them along the path they choose as best I can, but they get to choose the path. I'll be there to throw them a lifeline, but I'm not going to take over their lives and fix their mistakes. It's up to them to do that. If they end up in jail I'll visit, but I won't bail them out. If they get in over their heads with drugs, I'll pay for rehab and therapy, but I won't force them to go. If they get/get someone pregnant I'm not raising the kid, they have to. For the most part(3/5's of my kids are 18+ now), they've kept their noses clean.

Enjoy,
Steven
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