Straight Dope Message Board

[Unreconstructed Man]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I am not sure what being an incel has to do with sex slaves or any other nonsense. The word incel solely means "involuntarily celibate". There are crazy people among every group or demographic.

There’s no such thing as an “involuntary celibate”. Anyone can get laid, including so-called “incels”. They just need to lower their standards. They’re not mad because they can’t get a girl. They’re mad because they can’t get a fuckin’ beauty queen. Their celibacy is entirely self-imposed. 101

[The King of Soup]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

... shouldn't we be concerned if the stats show more and more men are becoming involuntarily celibate? Or worry about how we're going to address that as a society?

No, that is a problem that should probably be addressed individually, because we probably won't invent a universal cure for unappealing entitled misogynistic asshole.

I notice Japan has managed to attain massive celibacy levels without much social discord. I am not sure the West will be able to do this. I would guess Japan managed to do this because they are more stoic or withdrawn people...

I just knew you were the kind of person to guess based on stereotypes of other cultures (please note: Japanese people are neither particularly stoic nor withdrawn; in fact, these aren't even the usual racist stereotypes, they are just being made up for this argument). I'm actually surprised you didn't bring up the aging demographics. An honest man might also guess about the general availability of firearms, especially since rape culture in Japan is about, give and take, as bad as our own.

Whereas in the West we have a culture of worshiping sex.

So, no idea about Japanese culture, or Western culture, or spelling, at all, huh? 102

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

- In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren't bitter or hateful at all.

A documentary which happened to feature only three incels. 103

[JRDelirious]

"right about everything"?? (emphasis mine) Oh, please. Not being totally wrong about some things that are noncontroversial does not mean being right about everything that is, or not coming to the wrong conclusion from the evidence.


The only thing to be done, is for the self proclaimed "incels" to get over it and over themselves. So life is not the way we'd like it to be? Old news.

Originally Posted by TheFuture

seems like the only viable solution and I think sex dolls will eventually need to fill that void. The technology though might take another 20-30 years to become useful so until then I think it's going to get uglier out there.

Originally Posted by Great Antibob

As already explained, many already have access to sex. But it doesn't match their own imagined automatic entitlement to women they consider conventionally beautiful. Sex dolls aren't going to fix that. Instead, they'll make up some excuse about how it's not the same thing or not an adequate substitute.

"I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before the next decade is out, to land a fully functional sexdroid on an incel and return him safely to Earth. We choose to do this not because it's easy, but because it's haaahhd..." 104

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by snfaulkner

And I'm still very unclear on what points he think they are trying to make.

Mostly I would summarize the points I think from that page as:

- Personality matters but not not how people commonly claim.
- Autism creates a very high likelihood of men ending up alone and virgins even though autistic men want relationships as much as anyone else.
- A man's race is very important to women eg. Asian men get 11 times fewer messages than white ones.
- Looks are more important than personality for both men and women in dating.
- Height is very important for men in dating.
- Money is somewhat important for men in dating.
- Online dating is making it easier for women to endorse their natural instinct to seek the best men.
- The top men are having more sex than ever while overall male celibacy is rising.
- Men dominate online dating platforms and the thirst is real.

I don't think most people acknowledge in public the above points. I haven't heard much of it except that money matters and most people know from experience that height matters. I was pretty surprised by the race studies. And it's interesting to see these effects quantified. 105

[Sunny Daze]

Originally Posted by Velocity

IMHO, incels generally have four options:

1. Continue the unhappy status quo forever;
2. Go abroad (not that incel-dom isn't a thing abroad, but most of the discussions about it are about American incels; and even an ugly American is usually granted a certain 'status' in some foreign countries);
3. Improve themselves (depending on situation, much easier said than done - for instance, if you have 3rd-degree burn scars over half your body, that's not cheaply or easily fixed)
4. Try to change society's attitudes

Really? You can't think of anything else at all that an incel could do to make themselves more appealing to others?

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I didn't even see it from an incel forum. I wouldn't want to spend time on one of those forums because I'm sure they'd be depressing as hell. I saw it from another subreddit post which has now been deleted.

How convenient.

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

It's really weird how women do not like to date men who are angry, bitter, self absorbed and generally dislike women except as a place to put their penis.

I guess we'll never know exactly why women feel this way. Total mystery.

We vote each quarter. If your name isn't on the "fuckable" list, you are shit outta luck.

I want to acknowledge the men of the Dope who have stepped up to give this thread all of the consideration it deserves (and sometimes more - clicking on that link is a whole other kind of selfless). Y'all rock.

I'd say it was sweet that Velocity now has someone to seriously discuss these issues with, but it's really not. You are both fuckwits. Sod off. 106

[Great Antibob]

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man

They just need to lower their standards.

Not even sure this part is true (and it's a bit demeaning in any case).

Part of their inferiority complex is the idea that they themselves are undesirable. So, the thinking goes, anybody who would have anything to do with them is automatically undesirable themselves. It's a nasty Catch-22 they impose on themselves. 107

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by The King of Soup

No, that is a problem that should probably be addressed individually, because we probably won't invent a universal cure for unappealing entitled misogynistic asshole.

I just knew you were the kind of person to guess based on stereotypes of other cultures (please note: Japanese people are neither particularly stoic nor withdrawn; in fact, these aren't even the usual racist stereotypes, they are just being made up for this argument). I'm actually surprised you didn't bring up the aging demographics. An honest man might also guess about the general availability of firearms, especially since rape culture in Japan is about, give and take, as bad as our own.

So, no idea about Japanese culture, or Western culture, or spelling, at all, huh?

So if you know more about Japanese culture, why have they been able to attain such a high level of celibacy in young people without any problems? Or have they experienced the same problems as the west?

I am honestly curious. I don't know that answer. If I knew everything in life I wouldn't be asking questions or trying to get people's opinions. 108

[guizot]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

. . . there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going. . . .

No, there isn't. I read five of those studies at random (I'm not going to waste any more of my time reading any more), and they don't support the conclusion which "incels" draw about these issues. Nice try. Now I'm going to do something more productive with my time. 109

[snfaulkner]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Mostly I would summarize the points I think from that page as:

- Personality matters but not not how people commonly claim.

How do you think they think it matters?

- Autism creates a very high likelihood of men ending up alone and virgins even though autistic men want relationships as much as anyone else.
- A man's race is very important to women eg. Asian men get 11 times fewer messages than white ones.
- Looks are more important than personality for both men and women in dating.
- Height is very important for men in dating.
- Money is somewhat important for men in dating.
- Online dating is making it easier for women to endorse their natural instinct to seek the best men.
- The top men are having more sex than ever while overall male celibacy is rising.
- Men dominate online dating platforms and the thirst is real.

Ok, no big surprises, but so what? What's next? 110

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Well I think what you're saying is "violent and hateful incels are the problem", because:

I think that what I'm saying is that Incels are the problem, because I fucking straight up said Incels are the problem. The term is a label for a specific group and, in my opinion, should always be capitalized as such (though I'm imperfect at that myself).

Originally Posted by TheFuture

- Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label "incel" and mostly posted on bodybuilding.com so he couldn't have been part of an "incel" hate group if one didn't yet exist.
- In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren't bitter or hateful at all.

The Incel hate group probably existed for a while before it decided to adopt the deliberately-deceptive label "Incel" for marketing reasons.

And from what I understand, the path to becoming an Incel is a slow one - you go there seeking support and camaraderie, and as you spend time in the group you start to adopt their ways. (This happens with all kinds of groups, not just Incels.) I also gather that as you become acclimatized to a given group's level of Incelishness and start to reflect it in your speech and posting style, you'll be guided to other discussions where a slightly more hardcore attitude is present. As you acclimatize to each 'level' you will be exposed to harsher and harsher attitudes, until you join them in spouting hatred and bitterness and calls for violence that would have repelled you when you first approached the group. You keep diving in deeper and deeper because you seek the support of the community, and the further into the community you get the more it seems that they're the only group that supports you. (Possibly because everyone else now sees you as an asshole.)

I gather that becoming a neo-nazi works the same way - you're mostly seeking camaraderie and brotherhood, and come away as a person who can't find camaraderie with nonradicalized people.

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Again, there also does exist communities of female incels. I posted an example of one above who just seemed like a normal sad lonely girl. So saying incel = hateful misogynist as an automatic assignment does not make sense.

You've utterly failed to provide evidence that "femcels" share anything with incels but the general attitude that they're lonely and wish they were luckier in love. Most likely when they chose the appellation they had fallen for the lie that "Incel" just means involuntarily celibate, and only later learned that the term had another meaning (that they explicitly distance themselves from). 111

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

- Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label "incel"

From the article linked in Post #103:

[T]he term “incel” was actually started by a woman. In 1993, Alana – known by her first name only, presumably for her own safety – created an online relationship support group for people like herself, who were experiencing unwanted sexual inactivity, to discuss their thoughts and feelings with other people. She called the forum’s newsletter “Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project”, which she shorted to INVCEL and then INCEL. “

112

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by guizot

No, there isn't. I read five of those studies at random (I'm not going to waste any more of my time reading any more), and they don't support the conclusion which "incels" draw about these issues. Nice try. Now I'm going to do something more productive with my time.

Which ones were bad/wrong?

For example, I read the one on height cutoffs:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...for_both_sexes

And it was just a graphing of the data right from the research tables. 113

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

From the article linked in Post #103:

So incels as a group were created by women, and remain populated by women in female incel groups, but somehow all incels are hateful mass murdering misogynist men. LOL. That does not make any sense at all. 114

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

So if you know more about Japanese culture, why have they been able to attain such a high level of celibacy in young people without any problems? Or have they experienced the same problems as the west?

I am honestly curious. I don't know that answer. If I knew everything in life I wouldn't be asking questions or trying to get people's opinions.

Here's a guess: the Incel discussion boards are likely mostly in English, slowing the group's spread to countries that don't use English as a first language.

Again, celibacy isn't actually a problem - that's a stupid Incel lie. Normal humans can be celibate just fine without going on murder sprees. It takes a certain kind of groupthink to start idolizing murders, so without such a group the only negative societal effect of celibacy is a lowered birth rate. 115

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

So incels as a group were created by women, and remain populated by women in female incel groups, but somehow all incels are hateful mass murdering misogynist men. LOL. That does not make any sense at all.

Given that that's obviously not what happened, it's not surprising that your silly nonsense doesn't make sense. 116

[Sunny Daze]

Back to the OP's first question: what do we do about incels? I propose exile. Antartica maybe? The moon is an option, but there are gravity well issues that I'm not happy about. Floating city in international waters? Nations could take turns dropping off rations. 117

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by begbert2

Here's a guess: the Incel discussion boards are likely mostly in English, slowing the group's spread to countries that don't use English as a first language.

Again, celibacy isn't actually a problem - that's a stupid Incel lie. Normal humans can be celibate just fine without going on murder sprees. It takes a certain kind of groupthink to stark idolizing murders, so without such a group the only negative societal effect of celibacy is a lowered birth rate.

Yeah but again that doesn't really make sense since Elliot Rodger went on his killing spree before there was even an incel forum for him to post in and Alek Minassian only referenced 4chan and 4chan was based off of an equivalent Japanese site in the first place.

So it would suggest either there's a cultural difference as it pertains to celibacy, things are overhyped here in the west ("incel bogeymen"), or maybe Japan actually has the same problems but we don't hear about them in the same way. 118

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Which ones were bad/wrong?

For example, I read the one on height cutoffs:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...for_both_sexes

And it was just a graphing of the data right from the research tables.

Just a skim told me that the study was specifically about speed dating. 119

[Great Antibob]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

or maybe Japan actually has the same problems but we don't hear about them in the same way.

Or maybe there's more than a touch of media sensationalism and there isn't as big a fucking problem as this racist bullshit you've got going on! 120

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by thefuture

elliot rodger went on his killing spree

2014

an incel forum for him to post in

1993 121

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Yeah but again that doesn't really make sense since Elliot Rodger went on his killing spree before there was even an incel forum for him to post in and Alek Minassian only referenced 4chan and 4chan was based off of an equivalent Japanese site in the first place.

So it would suggest either there's a cultural difference as it pertains to celibacy, things are overhyped here in the west ("incel bogeymen"), or maybe Japan actually has the same problems but we don't hear about them in the same way.

Oh, I won't say that there aren't people who are bitter sexist misogynistic fucks straight out the gate, without any help. I mean, somebody pushed it to the depths of the toilet where it now resides, and it would have to be guys like that. But also, as I previous mentioned and which you ignored because of reasons only you know, the group doubtlessly existed prior to taking on the "Incel" label. The dude posted on bodybuilding forums, you said? It's my understanding that there's a huge focus on appearance in that subculture too.

And as for Japan, aside from the rather large cultural difference that Inceldom seems to have sprouted from english language communities, it appears that in Japan they're getting hikikomoris, who have internalized their anxieties to the point of withdrawing from society, rather than blaming other people and hating society. Which seems significantly more mature, if you ask me. 122

[The King of Soup]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

So if you know more about Japanese culture, why have they been able to attain such a high level of celibacy in young people without any problems?

Your knowledge of Japanese culture seems to be entirely made up in your own head. Your knowledge of Japanese society seems even worse. "Without any problems?" And you think that if there were, they'd be attributable to celibacy? Not to mention things like demographics, availability of firearms, and such.

If you were honestly curious, you'd shut up, read the thread, be ashamed, and go away. But you won't, will you? Everyone knows by now that "Involuntarily celibate" is simply the stupid version of "Enthusiastically awful." Seriously, when you decide science has decreed no one wants to have sex with you, think about another scientific theory: evolution. When the planet doesn't want you around anymore, take the hint. 123

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by begbert2

Just a skim told me that the study was specifically about speed dating.

Yeah, they took 5782 speed daters and charted the women's height requirements that the women themselves stated (min and max) and did competitor analyses on how many men would have to compete for a woman at each height. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I did speed dating a few times and it was fun. Do you think it could have been studied a better way?

This other height study showing women were happiest when the man was 8" taller than them used a sample of 52,677 people:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...91886913000020

But I can't find a full text version for free and I don't care enough to pay to read that methodology. In my experience most of the girls that were easiest to date did tend to be around 6-8" shorter than me. I've dated girls with closer heights but it's never been so easy as when I've been that much taller myself. 124

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

So incels as a group were created by women, and remain populated by women in female incel groups, but somehow all incels are hateful mass murdering misogynist men. LOL. That does not make any sense at all.

Woman behind 'incel' says angry men hijacked her word 'as a weapon of war': The woman who coined the term ‘involuntary celibate’ says she intended it as a community for lonely people, and is shocked by its misogynistic turn:

Soon after her social life began to blossom and she handed off the site to someone she didn’t know. It would be years before she would hear the term incel again – this time as she was browsing through an issue of Mother Jones in a bookstore.

The magazine had covered the story of Elliot Rodger, who in 2014 killed six people and wounded 14 others in California. In online posts that raged at women for rejecting his romantic advances, Rodger had described himself as an incel.

“Holy shit,” Alana thought. “Look what I started.”

The term – and the friendly community of lonely people she had once fostered – had morphed into a deeply misogynistic online subculture that at times called for rape or other violence. Thousands were now on incel forums, united in their belief that the modern world is unfairly stacked against heterosexual men who are awkward or unattractive.

125

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by The King of Soup

Think about another scientific theory: evolution. When the planet doesn't want you around anymore, take the hint.

I think that's why they call it "The Blackpill." They see it that way as well. That this is all reduceable to evolutionary biology. Most of those studies are evolutionary biology at their heart. Eg. Women want tall muscular men because once tall muscular men were needed to fight off wild beasts. 126

[Ukulele Ike]

Unattractive men are unable to have sex with women.

Within a few generations, unattractive people have been removed from the gene pool.

Is there a...downside to this that I’m somehow missing? 127

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

Woman behind 'incel' says angry men hijacked her word 'as a weapon of war': The woman who coined the term ‘involuntary celibate’ says she intended it as a community for lonely people, and is shocked by its misogynistic turn:

I didn't know anyone could own a word. Unless maybe a copyright or trademark. Nonetheless, female incels like Alana still exist as posted. So her legacy still exists online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/ 128

[Darren Garrison]

They just need to lower their standards.

Lowered expectaaaaaations! 129

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Yeah, they took 5782 speed daters and charted the women's height requirements that the women themselves stated (min and max) and did competitor analyses on how many men would have to compete for a woman at each height. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I did speed dating a few times and it was fun. Do you think it could have been studied a better way?

This other height study showing women were happiest when the man was 8" taller than them used a sample of 52,677 people:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...91886913000020

But I can't find a full text version for free and I don't care enough to pay to read that methodology. In my experience most of the girls that were easiest to date did tend to be around 6-8" shorter than me. I've dated girls with closer heights but it's never been so easy as when I've been that much taller myself.

"Easiest to date"?

Out of genuine curiosity, what the fuck? How is it hard to date a woman who you can look in the eye?

I mean, yes, I get that there's a vague societal notion in a couple the man should be taller than the woman. Vague. But (like all the other stuff in these studies), that's just a trend thing, and there are numerous actualized counterexamples. Being a somewhat short man is not a death knell, no matter how much Incels want something other themselves that they can blame for their problems. 130

[Ukulele Ike]

Getting rid of all the short people is a bonus. They got little hands and little eyes, they walk around telling great big lies.

They got no reason to live. 131

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

Getting rid of all the short people is a bonus.

All the short men.

Presumably we're going to slaughter all the tall women too, just to balance things out. 132

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by begbert2

"Easiest to date"?

Out of genuine curiosity, what the fuck? How is it hard to date a woman who you can look in the eye?

I mean, yes, I get that there's a vague societal notion in a couple the man should be taller than the woman. Vague. But (like all the other stuff in these studies), that's just a trend thing, and there are numerous actualized counterexamples. Being a somewhat short man is not a death knell, no matter how much Incels want something other themselves that they can blame for their problems.

I mean there was the most instant attraction from the girl. Her playing with her hair, batting her lashes, rocking back and forth, making innuendo. Have you never noticed any types of trends about the girls who like you most?

I don't think anecdotes outweigh statistics. One of the girls who loved me most was around my height and I once had a girl much taller than me "fall in love with me" (told everyone this) but I never ended up dating her for other reasons.

Anecdotes and outliers don't change or invalidate the data. 133

[snfaulkner]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I think that's why they call it "The Blackpill." They see it that way as well. That this is all reduceable to evolutionary biology. Most of those studies are evolutionary biology at their heart. Eg. Women want tall muscular men because once tall muscular men were needed to fight off wild beasts.

Again, even if true, so? What's next? 134

[Ukulele Ike]

Nah, tall women are an evolutionary advance.. They can get the premium products off the top shelves at the grocery store. 135

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I didn't know anyone could own a word. Unless maybe a copyright or trademark. Nonetheless, female incels like Alana still exist as posted. So her legacy still exists online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/

Do you practice deliberately missing points or does it just come natural? 136

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by snfaulkner

Again, even if true, so? What's next?

That was my question in the OP exactly. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked. 137

[Ukulele Ike]

Man, I love these threads that have the one schlemiel is them that go so fast you can’t keep up.

I’ve banged all sizes of gorgeous chicks. The tall ones were great, the medium size were great, and the short ones were especially great. I guess you could call me “Chad!” And in the morning, they made breakfast! 138

[Ukulele Ike]

And I’m talking fresh fruit, homemade biscuits, and caviar omelettes. None of that cold cereal shit. 139

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I mean there was the most instant attraction from the girl. Her playing with her hair, batting her lashes, rocking back and forth, making innuendo. Have you never noticed any types of trends about the girls who like you most?

I don't 'prowl'.

The three women I've dated were all shorter than me, but that's probably just because I'm moderately tall, at 6'1" - that's seven inches taller than the american female average height.

Are you, perhaps, somewhat tall too? Maybe most of the females that reciprocated your attentions were shorter than you because most of the females you met were shorter than you.

Originally Posted by TheFuture

I don't think anecdotes outweigh statistics. One of the girls who loved me most was around my height and I once had a girl much taller than me "fall in love with me" (told everyone this) but I never ended up dating her for other reasons.

Anecdotes and outliers don't change or invalidate the data.

They sure as fuck invalidate the Incel worldview, though. The Incel worldview is that the deck is so stacked against them that they have no chance. Even one single counterexample blows their beliefs to shreds.

They pretend this is false, and keep citing data that manifestly, explicity, and comletely doesn't support their conclusions of doom, because a bitter inferiority complex doesn't work if you're not doomed. 140

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

Do you practice deliberately missing points or does it just come natural?

Your notion that "all incels are hateful misogynists" is so easily disprovable it's ridiculous. Generally speaking, if you phrase a sentence about groups of people and who they are as people with "all ____ are ____" you're not going to win a debate on the veracity of that statement.

Because then all anyone has to do is provide a counterexample and you've been proven wrong. I've provided male examples from the BBC documentary, from female incel groups, and you yourself have provided the female who started the "incel" movement, all of whom disprove that the name "incel" must necessarily imply what you suggest it should.

You could say "some ____ are ___" or even "most ___ are ___" if you believe that to be true and we can have a debate. But if you say "all ___ are ___" you've lost by definition and revealed yourself as an ideologue not interested in nuanced discussion. 141

[Tee]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

And I’m talking fresh fruit, homemade biscuits, and caviar omelettes. None of that cold cereal shit.

I love a man with a well stocked fridge. 142

[Darren Garrison]

Originally Posted by TheFuture

Her playing with her hair, batting her lashes, rocking back and forth, making innuendo.

Are you sure that isn't Tourette's? 143

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison

Are you sure that isn't Tourette's?

lmao



So I've been doing it wrong all these years. Gotta stop picking up girls from psychiatric wards. 144

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally Posted by Tee

I love a man with a well stocked fridge.

Hey, baby. Want to come over, spin a little Barry White, and check out my “well stocked fridge?” 145

[Ukulele Ike]

See, if all those incels knew about Barry White, they’d have the Victoria’s Secret models tripping ‘em and beating them to the floor. 146

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

See, if all those incels knew about Barry White, they’d have the Victoria’s Secret models tripping ‘em and beating them to the floor.

Being tripped and then getting a beatdown? Sounds painful. 147

[Ukulele Ike]

TWO schlemiels.

G’night. I’m in the middle of a good book. And my gorgeous wife will probably want to have mind-blowing sex. 148

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

TWO schlemiels.

From the Shotz Brewery? 149

[TheFuture]

Originally Posted by begbert2

I don't 'prowl'.

The three women I've dated were all shorter than me, but that's probably just because I'm moderately tall, at 6'1" - that's seven inches taller than the american female average height.

Are you, perhaps, somewhat tall too? Maybe most of the females that reciprocated your attentions were shorter than you because most of the females you met were shorter than you.

They sure as fuck invalidate the Incel worldview, though. The Incel worldview is that the deck is so stacked against them that they have no chance. Even one single counterexample blows their beliefs to shreds.

They pretend this is false, and keep citing data that manifestly, explicity, and comletely doesn't support their conclusions of doom, because a bitter inferiority complex doesn't work if you're not doomed.

I'm not tall at all. You're lucky for that height you have. So when I say they were 6-8" shorter than me, they were pretty short girls. That I can recall, I've never had that kind of instant attraction from girls closer to my height. But again, that's just personal experience. I think science > personal experience. In this case, it just happens the science seems to match my experience.

If there's any one thing I believe it's that there are no absolutes in life. Science for example is not about absolutes. It's about probabilities. Even scientific conclusions are typically stated with a P value meant to signal the probability that the conclusion the data draws is valid.

On the other hand, what is or isn't "hopeless" is entirely subjective. I can't comment on one person's threshold for hopelessness vs. another's, because that likely depends on their entire lifetime of experience. Almost certainly, if you've spent your whole life getting bullied, rejected, isolated, say due to autism or some other incurable problem, and then you try online dating and only get ignored and no matches, you're going to have a lower threshold to declare it "hopeless" and give up than someone who had a great upbringing and happy life up to that point.

I can certainly say hopelessness is not a pleasant feeling and if the current culture is leading more and more young isolated men to feel hopeless that is likely not ideal for those men or society as a whole. 150