Straight Dope Message Board

[Novelty Bobble]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Novelty Bobble, I'll take your word. You have more reasons to watch it over and over than I have

I have to stress that the multiple viewings haven't been by me. I was repeating the consensus of those that have.
It has proved hard to track down a frame-by-frame online and I only seen it once in real time and a couple of subsequent slow replays. My impression was that it clipped the front pad but I'm perfectly open to the fact that it didn't and it was an umpiring shocker.

Anyway, it is a done deal now. It is only natural (but a shame) that people focus on one incident at the sharp end of the game but the whole match was a string of nonsense that I'm still trying to get my head around. e.g. I had entirely forgotten that Stokes was with Root for a long anonymous period on Saturday evening as well, he had a massive 2 from 50 balls at that point 401

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

I have to stress that the multiple viewings haven't been by me. I was repeating the consensus of those that have.
It has proved hard to track down a frame-by-frame online and I only seen it once in real time and a couple of subsequent slow replays. My impression was that it clipped the front pad but I'm perfectly open to the fact that it didn't and it was an umpiring shocker.

Anyway, it is a done deal now. It is only natural (but a shame) that people focus on one incident at the sharp end of the game but the whole match was a string of nonsense that I'm still trying to get my head around. e.g. I had entirely forgotten that Stokes was with Root for a long anonymous period on Saturday evening as well, he had a massive 2 from 50 balls at that point

Oh, I agree entirely and I have tried unsuccessfully to get a You Tube video which shows the ball rather than Stokes talking of it. It is well and good for us to talk about Hawkeye and what trajectory it follows- to the pad, after the initial hit (if there was one) and so on. I just don't know- I know they have seven cameras. As for Stokes saying it hit the front pad in the words of Mandy Rice-Davies - if anyone can remember her- "Well he would (giggle), wouldn't he?)"

I don't think Wilson made a superb decision- if he did it was by luck going on previous form in this series. I think it is time to revisit allowing Australian and English umpires to stand in Ashes series.

However, I also don't wish to detract from one of the best innings of all time and the efforts of the whole English team. Australia played poorly in the last hour and hardly deserved to win and Pattison could have done much more. So could have a lot of Australian bowlers.

To England, enjoy the success (hopefully your last of an enthralling series) but I believe in the interim there is a match against Derbyshire and the big interest will be if Smith- and Starc- play. Cheers 402

[Novelty Bobble]

Originally Posted by Cicero

I don't think Wilson made a superb decision- if he did it was by luck going on previous form in this series. I think it is time to revisit allowing Australian and English umpires to stand in Ashes series.

I agree. I doubt that many on either side would be too bothered about the best umpires standing regardless of country of origin. I'd live with the slight risk of bias if it means we have those most technically able. 403

[penultima thule]

Originally Posted by AK84

Cicero do you think Paine is a long term leadership option?

Jumping in, though Cicero had it about right.
Paine is not a long term option, but he might be the best available for the next two years. The Australian cricket model is not inclined to keepers as captains. They are much more commonly providing the sage alternative viewpoint. Whether his form will hold that long is unknown. His batting is struggling though his predecessors set rare standards, I have been uneasy at his glove work.

The current First Class captains are:
Kurtis Patterson NSW
Travis Head SA
Peter Handscomb VIC
Usman Khawaja QLD
George Bailley TAS
Mitchell Marsh WA

Of these only Travis could be considered a replacement option and he’s not of unquestioned Test standard yet.
The others have generally had their run while Kurtis is yet to establish his credentials.
Usman hasn’t shown any particular aptitude while captain of the Bulls. He is a pretty laid back character and would be a an unconventional choice. 404

[penultima thule]

Originally Posted by mhendo

I was annoyed with the Aussies for wasting their review.

Best explanation I have heard is that AUS had given the game away.
So that a shot in the dark review was a better chance than a certain loss.

That’s how much Stokes had rattled them.

For a system that is designed to fix howlers it is now primarily a tactical tool for the top order. Odds on there’ll be a move to increase the number of available reviews. The poor standard of umpiring this series might give that impetus. An example of hard cases making bad law to my thinking. There is insufficient penalty for burning a review. 405

[Cumbrian]

When is Steve Smith allowed to captain again? 406

[Cumbrian]

Originally Posted by penultima thule

For a system that is designed to fix howlers it is now primarily a tactical tool for the top order. Odds on there’ll be a move to increase the number of available reviews. The poor standard of umpiring this series might give that impetus. An example of hard cases making bad law to my thinking. There is insufficient penalty for burning a review.

I agree with this. On this subject, and the related one of neutral umpiring, the best answer for my money is to develop better umpires. I don't particularly want to go back to non-neutral umpiring (it was a horrendous cheat's charter back in the day and, even if the umpires are all ICC employed and get chucked out on their ear for impropriety, it looks bad if a home umpire gives a beneficial decision). We weren't that bothered about neutral umpiring for The Ashes when the likes of Venkat and Rudi Koertzen were knocking about - on which subject, how come there are no Indian umpires on the ICC panel? A nation of over a billion, all cricket obsessed and they can't put up an international standard umpire? You what? There are 12 elite umpires - 7 are from England or Australia. What are India and Bangladesh doing to develop umpires? 407

[Stanislaus]

I think it was Daniel Vettori who argued that the number of reviews available should be: one (1).

The point being that if the aim of the system is to correct utter howlers rather than marginal calls, then only having one available massively incentivises people to only use them if they're utterly, utterly sure. That would go quite a long way in changing the culture/strategy around them, but I don't know if even that could overcome the Bowlers' Reality Distortion Field (aka the Broad Vortex) that kicks in on these occasions. In this instance where Australia did only have one review remaining (and, be fair, only a limited prospect of having to use another) it wouldn't by itself have made a difference. But the hope would be that over time the importance of not making speculative reviews would become ingrained.

But better umpires would work too. No idea how you go about improving umpire school though. 408

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Cicero

I have tried unsuccessfully to get a You Tube video which shows the ball rather than Stokes talking of it.

I've been watching the cricket on Willow TV, through my Sling TV subscriiption.

I finally managed, on my computer, to work out how to record the video stream and convert it to a file. I've managed to create and upload a video of the appeal and the subsequent ball tracking. It's video only, with no audio, but it gives a pretty good sense of how it looked at full speed and in slow-motion replay, and how the video system saw the delivery.

I didn't want to upload it to YouTube, in case their automatic copyright system flagged it, so I've put it on my photo site. You should be able to view it here. Let me know if you have any trouble seeing the video. There's also a download link on the left hand side of the screen.

It definitely seems to clip the front pad first, before going on to the back leg. The way that Stokes' front leg was moving towards the leg side with the force of his stroke, it looks in fast motion like the ball might be going down leg side. I definitely don't blame Wilson for give it "not out" on the appeal. 409

[Teuton]

Having looked at that video (thanks mhendo!), I think it looked out, but in fast motion, it doesn't look like the howler it's been made out in some places. 410

[lisiate]

In slow motion, pausing at the moment the ball strikes his back pad, it's clearly out.

In real time with Stokes' arms and legs all over the place it's really hard to tell. I wouldn't have raised the finger. 411

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by penultima thule

Jumping in, though Cicero had it about right.
Paine is not a long term option, but he might be the best available for the next two years. The Australian cricket model is not inclined to keepers as captains. They are much more commonly providing the sage alternative viewpoint. Whether his form will hold that long is unknown. His batting is struggling though his predecessors set rare standards, I have been uneasy at his glove work.

The current First Class captains are:
Kurtis Patterson NSW
Travis Head SA
Peter Handscomb VIC
Usman Khawaja QLD
George Bailley TAS
Mitchell Marsh WA

Of these only Travis could be considered a replacement option and he’s not of unquestioned Test standard yet.
The others have generally had their run while Kurtis is yet to establish his credentials.
Usman hasn’t shown any particular aptitude while captain of the Bulls. He is a pretty laid back character and would be a an unconventional choice.

That list is frightening. 412

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Cumbrian

When is Steve Smith allowed to captain again?

I believe it won't be until March next year (2020). He was stripped of all captaincy roles for two years. 413

[Cumbrian]

With Australia having series against Pakistan and NZ before Smith's captaincy ban is up, I guess a lot will depend on how Paine goes in the remainder of The Ashes and those two series. Good results and I imagine he hangs on. I think Smith's rehabilitation is going alright though - abetted by the English crowd's booing of him and so on, as well as the runs he is making. I wouldn't be surprised if Smith is captain of Australia again sometime in late 2020-early 2021. 414

[AK84]

Re International umpires.
Firstky, hell no. We have had a 110 years of non neutral umpires and 25 of neutral ones. We know how often even good ones gave in to bias.


(English and Aussies ones are biased by programming, but I digress)

Here is the elite panel. Lots of English and Aussies right now, but look at the retired list, lots of good ones from everywhere except BD. 415

[Stanislaus]

Anderson out of the remaining series. Didn't make it through his second innings spell in the 2nd XI match.

Obviously a shame from a partisan point of view, also from the perspective of wanting a great contest. But the real shame is the risk that this is Anderson's exit from England cricket, which would be a sad way to go. 416

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by mhendo

I didn't want to upload it to YouTube, in case their automatic copyright system flagged it, so I've put it on my photo site. You should be able to view it here. Let me know if you have any trouble seeing the video. There's also a download link on the left hand side of the screen.

It definitely seems to clip the front pad first, before going on to the back leg. The way that Stokes' front leg was moving towards the leg side with the force of his stroke, it looks in fast motion like the ball might be going down leg side. I definitely don't blame Wilson for give it "not out" on the appeal.

Thanks for taking the time to do that and I apologise for the delay in responding. I wouldn't be able to make a call on that- certainly worth a shout. 417

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Stanislaus

Anderson out of the remaining series. Didn't make it through his second innings spell in the 2nd XI match.

Obviously a shame from a partisan point of view, also from the perspective of wanting a great contest. But the real shame is the risk that this is Anderson's exit from England cricket, which would be a sad way to go.

Agreed- I always thought he was a surly sort of character but his skill as a bowler- well his record says it all. 418

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by AK84

Here is the elite panel. Lots of English and Aussies right now, but look at the retired list, lots of good ones from everywhere except BD.

There's been quite a bit of discussion about umpires in this thread, but I don't think anyone has yet noted that Joel Wilson and Chris Gaffaney have been removed for the last two tests of the Ashes series.

Marais Erasmus (South Africa) and Ruchira Palliyaguruge (Sri Lanka) will take their places. For Palliyaguruge , the fourth test will also be HIS fourth test match as an umpire. Erasmus has 55 under his belt. 419

[penultima thule]

Originally Posted by mhendo

Joel Wilson and Chris Gaffaney have been removed for the last two tests of the Ashes series.

It was 6-5 and pick 'em whether they'd be replaced by umpires or ball-by-ball DRS 420

[mhendo]

India are in the process of demolishing the West Indies in Kingston, and Bumrah got himself 6-16 yesterday afternoon, including a hat-trick. Third one for an Indian in text matches.

Bumrah barely even appealed for the LBW on the hat-trick ball, and didn't seem inclined to use a review. He seemed to think that it was a bat-pad. Also, to the naked eye, it looked like the ball might have been going down leg side. But the captain Kohli made the call from third slip, and the review showed it hitting pad first, and then hitting leg stump.

It's a shame that the match has apparently attracted a crowd of about 200 at Sabina Park. 421

[Teuton]

Checked the India/WI game just in time for Kohli to go first ball!

Still, not looking like WI will get anywhere with this game. There's still 2 full days after this one, and India are 345 ahead with the power of 7 wickets to add. If WI pull off this kind of chase, it'll rightfully put Stokes' effort in the shade. Their only realistic hope is to slow Indian scoring enough that they can bat out a draw, but that's almost as unlikely. 422

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Teuton

Checked the India/WI game just in time for Kohli to go first ball!

Still, not looking like WI will get anywhere with this game. There's still 2 full days after this one, and India are 345 ahead with the power of 7 wickets to add. If WI pull off this kind of chase, it'll rightfully put Stokes' effort in the shade. Their only realistic hope is to slow Indian scoring enough that they can bat out a draw, but that's almost as unlikely.

I'm pretty surprised that India didn't enforce the follow-on. They bowled less than 50 overs in the Windies' first innings, so bowling again probably wouldn't have tested their fitness too much. 423

[Cumbrian]

Seems like enforcing the follow on just isn't the fashion nowadays. Rest seems the most popular excuse but I also think it's a bit of conservatism - no one wants to get ambushed batting last on a wearing pitch.

I was reading this week that Bumrah (being of a certain age and having watched Thundercats when I was kid, I always mentally append "The Ever Living" to this guy's name) still hasn't played a Test in India. His record is pretty extraordinary given that fact. For a World XI at the moment, you'd think he'd be one of the first names down for the bowling attack. Given how much England struggled in the Test series against WI in the winter, India are demonstrating just how far ahead they are of us at least, I think - I can't see this England side winning in Australia for instance - despite the fact that they lost the Test series up here last year (poor captaincy, bad luck and England's lower order biffing being the major differentiators). Bit annoyed they haven't paid me off yet - I'm due some money and given the lack of crowds for the games in the Windies - a swift jaunt to tick a game off in the Caribbean (and one off my bucket list) would have been ideal - though hurricane dodging probably also an issue.

Re: umpires. Don't think umpires get "stood down" in the middle of series. Usually the appointments are announced well in advance, with a rotation of umpires within a longer series generally a given. Not that I wouldn't have stood down Wilson at minimum. I thought that decision against Stokes was plumb at the time and no matter how many times I watch the video mhendo has uploaded, I still think it looks stone dead. 424

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Cumbrian

Seems like enforcing the follow on just isn't the fashion nowadays. Rest seems the most popular excuse but I also think it's a bit of conservatism - no one wants to get ambushed batting last on a wearing pitch.

You're probably right. Seems like the decision to go back in won't change things very much. The Indians ended up setting the West Indies a target of almost 500, of which they managed to get 45 for the loss of two wickets on the afternoon of Day 3. That leaves two more days for 433 runs or 8 wickets. I'm betting on the Indian bowlers.

Originally Posted by Cumbrian

Re: umpires. Don't think umpires get "stood down" in the middle of series. Usually the appointments are announced well in advance, with a rotation of umpires within a longer series generally a given.

Yeah, I looked it up and you're right. Despite the fact that just about every news outlet is reporting it as a sacking, the ICC's own website makes very clear that Erasmus and Palliyaguruge were always going to be the umpires for the last two tests of the series. 425

[Cicero]

Auatralian team announced. Smith in for Kawaja and seems Starc in for Pattison. 426

[Boycott]

Not surprised by Khawaja dropping out. The new boy who replaced Smith has been excellent and they've already replaced one opener so Warner stays. 427

[AK84]

In other news, the PCB has made Misbah, both the Chief Selector and Head Coach.
He is now, officially not only all powerful in PCB but also the most powerful former Pakistan cricket captain at present.

Wonder what the Dope thinks. I must say, I am uneasy, he is like a damn football manager now. Its going to really make the Captains position untenable. 428

[Stanislaus]

Originally Posted by AK84

the most powerful former Pakistan cricket captain at present.

Imran who? 429

[Cumbrian]

What are you talking about? Clearly the guy at the head of the cricket team is more powerful than the PM. Look at the UK...

2-1. Broad gets Warner early again. 430

[penultima thule]

This Archer dude is a handy line & length trundler, eh what? 431

[Dead Cat]

Glad I checked this thread, thought this was starting tomorrow!

Good start by England has now devolved into the usual procession of bowlers failing to get Smith out. Early doors, but this could well become a match-winning partnership for Australia.

I would never support or condone such a tactic, but how many beamers can you bowl before being taken out of the attack by the umpires?

ETA: Aussie run rate looking much healthier for them than for most of the series, too. 432

[Cumbrian]

Originally Posted by AK84

In other news, the PCB has made Misbah, both the Chief Selector and Head Coach.
He is now, officially not only all powerful in PCB but also the most powerful former Pakistan cricket captain at present.

Wonder what the Dope thinks. I must say, I am uneasy, he is like a damn football manager now. Its going to really make the Captains position untenable.

I don't know what to make of this - Pakistani cricket politics is labyrinthine as far as I can tell, and I can't help but feel I am talking from a position of serious disadvantage on it.

This said, Misbah seems like a good bloke, brought through a bunch of the younger members of the side under his captaincy and might be a good leader for them on that basis. With respect to the captaincy, playing Devil's Advocate, it might be a good thing. Let Misbah be the leader off the field, concentrate on enacting the plans on it, and keeping people motivated whilst fielding. Might be a good division of labour, which, given the level of computer analysis done nowadays, is maybe more reflective of how captains actually impact the game.

Best of luck to them though. Always had a soft spot for Pakistan and cricket is generally better/more interesting when they're good. 433

[AK84]

Misbah was a great captain. Legitamatley. But cricket is a game which requires a leader on the field.
Anyone can execute a great plan when things are going well. But what if they are not.
The World Cup Final was a great match only because of how good a leader Williamson was.
Compare with how much at sea Tim Paine was at Leeds or Joe Root earlier. Unless Misbah is going to come on as a substitute fielder. 434

[Cumbrian]

Yes, I agree, you need a leader on the field. That's what this bit

Let Misbah be the leader off the field, concentrate on enacting the plans on it, and keeping people motivated whilst fielding

means.

If your captain can't either a) remember what Plan B is - because surely there will be secondary plans to every batsman that are gone over before a game - or b) come up with something on the fly for an hour before before you go back in the changing room, he's not much of a captain. If Misbah is able to help the guy leading concentrate on the bits that make the most difference, by being a stronger leader elsewhere, he's probably doing the captain a favour.

I think, in practice, a very strong link between coach and captain is ever more necessary in the modern era - certainly Fletcher and Hussain/Vaughan were in lock step, as were Flower and Strauss, Marsh and Waugh, etc. I think Misbah deserves a proper bedding in period to see how this works - he strikes me as being capable of doing this with whomever his chosen captain will be.

Williamson is an outlier, I think; an awful lot is being done in the prep room before hand - and even then, I bet Williamson is the best prepped captain in world cricket (following a corollary to Gary Player's maxim about practice and luck). 435

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Dead Cat

I would never support or condone such a tactic, but how many beamers can you bowl before being taken out of the attack by the umpires?

To be honest, I was surprised at how tame much of the bowling was today, especially from Archer. I expected him to be bowling at 90 miles an hour and whistling at least one or two an over past the Aussie batsmen's ears, but he was a good yard or two slower, and there's wasn't much fire in his bowling. When he did let a short one go, it was usually far too short, or off target, or both.

I was very happy to see how comfortable Smith looked at the crease. If the blow he took to the head messed with his confidence at all, it certainly didn't show today. I don't think he looked troubled once in his whole time in the middle. Labuschagne batted very nicely again, and it was a real beauty from Overton that got him.

After one decent knock in the first innings at Headingly, Warner is back to waving at anything a foot outside off stump. He and Jason Roy should start a club. 436

[penultima thule]

They have at least started by swinging their bat like one.

One of my cricket coaches used to describe such gross violations of the coaching manual as “dinosaur shots” ie the gap between bat and pad was wide enough for a dinosaur to pass.

As to what a classassist like Vic would have thought of Steve Smith is imponderable. 437

[penultima thule]

Smith quietly notches the ton.
Hasn’t scored less than 50 v ENG since 2017 438

[Cicero]

Smith reaches a ton- pity not much support. Warner seems a busted flush and aside from Lamburschange (spell check that one) no support from the recognised batsmen. I think I would have Khuwaja before Head- and that is saying something. 439

[Cicero]

If ESPN is correct that is the 5th century has scored in 8 innings versus England (sorry England folks). He sure seems to save his best for England. 440

[penultima thule]

Apparently he’s now the leading Test run scorer this calendar year ... having given the rest of the world’s best batsmen seven month start. 441

[mhendo]

And they get him with a no ball. No excuse for that from a spin bowler. 442

[Cumbrian]

Today could have gone better. If England lose this game, which seems likely unless the weather intervenes (given the batting performances this series, I am not holding out hope for those guys bailing us out), they should look back on the chances they've shelled and their spinner bowling a no ball on a wicket taking delivery and judge that they're their own worst enemies. 443

[Dead Cat]

I'm actually pretty pleased to end the day 23/1, all things considered. It probably won't matter, but Paine might regret not declaring a bit sooner. 444

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Cumbrian

Today could have gone better. If England lose this game, which seems likely unless the weather intervenes (given the batting performances this series, I am not holding out hope for those guys bailing us out), they should look back on the chances they've shelled and their spinner bowling a no ball on a wicket taking delivery and judge that they're their own worst enemies.

Yeah. Jofra's one was tough, but the catches at mid-on and especially at slip should have been taken.

All in all, it was a rather pleasant day of cricket to watch, especially if you're an Aussie. I was happy enough with Smith's 118, but to see him brought back after the no-ball was especially gratifying, especially with so many in the crowd still booing him whenever he enters or leaves the field of play. Nice to see the Aussie tail get some runs too. 82 off the last ten overs was a lot of fun to watch.

England can't win it from here, but all it will take is one or two nice long partnerships to ensure a draw. The wicket still looks pretty decent for batting, but not so good that the bowlers can't get anything out of it, and Lyon should get some good spin as the match goes on. Looking forward to tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Dead Cat

I'm actually pretty pleased to end the day 23/1, all things considered. It probably won't matter, but Paine might regret not declaring a bit sooner.

Maybe, but if you can't get them out twice in three days, then a hour or so might not have made a big difference. And with the speed that the Aussies put on their late-innings runs, it probably bought them more time than an earlier declaration at, say, 450 would have done. It might have been nice to have more than 10 overs to bowl at the end of the day, though, especially to batsmen who have been in the field for a couple of days. 445

[lisiate]

Nice to see Rahmat Khan got Afghanistan's maiden test century in their first ever match. 446

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by lisiate

Nice to see Rahmat Khan got Afghanistan's maiden test century in their first ever match.

I missed that so thanks for the info.

With the Ashes Test I keep thinking that the form of Smith must be temporary- except it is now three series. If Archer was showing fatigue at the end of the innings he will find it difficult on the Sub Continent- particularly if a player of the class of a Kohli gets going. 447

[penultima thule]

Originally Posted by lisiate

Nice to see Rahmat Khan got Afghanistan's maiden test century in their first ever match.

Indeed but a quibble.

Afghanistan's first Test century, their 3rd Test (one vs India, Ireland and now Bangladesh)

There's nothing that can take that achievement away from him. 448

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by penultima thule

Indeed but a quibble.

Afghanistan's first Test century, their 3rd Test (one vs India, Ireland and now Bangladesh)

There's nothing that can take that achievement away from him.

And he got 98 against Ireland. 449

[lisiate]

Good point my mistake. Still a notable achievement. 450