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  #151  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
"Hive mind" implies like-minded thinking. Surely you've noticed the Board's liberals often condemning asahi's excesses?

Anyway, I agree with asahi that criminals should be incarcerated. When asahi goes beyond that I'm pretty sure it's just anger driving him to hyperbole.

The Biden=Stalin linkage that right-wing oafs here make is utter nonsense; surely you understand that, Ale ?

It's very interesting that a not a single right-winger here, AFAICT, has dared to comment on Trump's criminality — they're still sputtering mad about something, but, in the face of such blatant crimes, are now unable to answer simple questions so just lash out viciously and senselessly.

We need a Poll question:
"[Right-wingers only please] Which of the following comes closest to your views on the alleged crimes(*) of Donald J. Trump? (* - So many to choose from, so little time! For definiteness let's focus on the phone call to Ukraine.)
.... (a) Extortion and bribery are not crimes when the President does it.
.... (b) What about the Clinton blow job? What about Benghazi? It's the libtards who are the criminals.
.... (c) Trump should be removed from office, and power turned over to Pence. Sure, Pence was an accessory to the same Ukraine extortion, but he — like so many of us — was just hypnotized by Donald Trump's great charisma and charm. Who can blame him?"
Lets recap a little, you made a dismissive remark when Octopus wrote "Thankfully they don’t have the numbers in the real world to open up gulags yet."

Asahi was talking about people who did not choose to vote for Hillary Clinton over Trump, namely Isosleepy on post #120. You are calling people like Isosleepy criminals who should be imprisoned and additionally, according to Asahi, have their citizenship removed and "reeducated".

Forget gulags, you people are one rant away from talking about the final solution to the Republican question.
  #152  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
... You are calling people like Isosleepy criminals who should be imprisoned ...

... you people are one rant away from talking about the final solution to the Republican question.

Where did I call "people like Isosleepy" criminals? I've consistently referred to Trump supporters as deluded dolts, not "criminals." When I wrote about "incarcerating criminals" I was talking about ... [can you guess?] ... actual criminals!

Will you please retract your groundless claim connecting me to a "final solution"? It's not liberals like asahi, nor moderates like me who are happy to use force against their political enemies; this sort of disgusting hateful violence is much more of a right-wing thing.

Yes, I do consider Donald J. Trump to be a criminal, despite that 12 juror have not yet concurred. (I read that the State of New York may also pursue charges of criminal fraud against Ivanka Trump.)
  #153  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post

Where did I call "people like Isosleepy" criminals? I've consistently referred to Trump supporters as deluded dolts, not "criminals." When I wrote about "incarcerating criminals" I was talking about ... [can you guess?] ... actual criminals!

Will you please retract your groundless claim connecting me to a "final solution"? It's not liberals like asahi, nor moderates like me who are happy to use force against their political enemies; this sort of disgusting hateful violence is much more of a right-wing thing.

Yes, I do consider Donald J. Trump to be a criminal, despite that 12 juror have not yet concurred. (I read that the State of New York may also pursue charges of criminal fraud against Ivanka Trump.)
Asahi was referring to those "deluded dolts" (Exhibit A: Isosleepy) as the people who should be incarcerated, so when you write " I agree with asahi that criminals should be incarcerated" who should one think you are referring to?

Obviously you'd rather not contemplate the notion, but liberals like Asahi are advocating political violence, pushing for people with different political views to be thrown in jail is advocating for violence, efforts to wish it away notwithstanding.
What Asahi, Der Trihs and others in these boards have been doing in regards to their complete demonization and dehumanization of their political opponents (or even people who rather not pick sides) is the groundwork needed to create the conditions where political violence breaks out, I don't see right wingers regularly bringing up rhetoric of that caliber to the SDMB so I'm quite tired of, each time I call out that behaviour, to be met with "but but Right WIngers!".

FWIW, I don't give a rat's posterior about Trump in regards to discussions about how people behave here, I care more about regular people and how the treat each other and when morally repugnant attitudes are justified by pointing at a bogeyman as their origin I don't buy it, I'm sick to the back of my teeth of people blaming their toxic, dangerous behaviour on how bad other people are.
  #154  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:13 AM
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Gulags?

Quote:
"The US incarceration rate peaked in 2008 when about 1 in 100 US adults was behind bars.[26] This incarceration rate exceeded the average incarceration levels in the Soviet Union during the existence of the infamous Gulag system, when the Soviet Union's population reached 168 million, and 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in the Gulag prison camps and colonies (i.e. about 0.8 imprisoned per 100 USSR residents, according to numbers from Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde).[36][37] Some of the latter Soviet Union's yearly incarceration rates from 1934 to 1953, however, likely were the world's historically highest for a modern age country[38]. In The New Yorker article The Caging of America (2012), Adam Gopnik writes: "Over all, there are now more people under 'correctional supervision' in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag under Stalin at its height."[39]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...ther_countries

The USA has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world, other than perhaps North Korea and China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rceration_rate

Those stats are koyaanisqatsi!

Quite simply, you are not the home of the free. You are nowhere close to being the home of the free. When it comes to freedom, you've taken the dumb part to heart, but your dumbtitude is standing in the way of your country developing freedom to second and eventually first world standards.


Americans, get your act together before you tear your country apart.


Specifically, Republicans, you've gone entirely off the rails with guns 'n' god and unending, unfounded and unbelievable conspiracy theories. Dump the Trump, run someone like Colin Powell or Eisenhower, and you'd find yourself in the Oval office more often. More importantly, you could hold your head high knowing that you had improved the lives of the all Americans, rather than just yourselves and your financial backers.

Democrats, all you are offering is Republican light. Give people a real choice. Have a look at how countries further up the democracy, human development and health indices do it. Here's a hint: health care for all, education including higher education for all, basic standard of living for all. In other words, social movement. It works. Stop your incessant naval gazing and have close looks at what goes on in western Europe. Get your heads out of your asses and get past your blind fear of people working together for the common good. In short: grow up and put forth something worth voting for.



To all of you -- Republicans, Democrats, and Americans in general -- accept the fact that you are nothing special. Stop ignoring easily available facts because you believe that you are special. You say you cannot have health care for all because you are special. You say that you cannot greatly reduce your gun death rate because you are special. You believe that you cannot treat everyone equally because you are special. Get over yourselves. You are not special. If other countries with fewer resources than yours can accomplish these things, then so can you if you have the guts to face who you are and do something about it.
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Hour after hour, day after day, we paddled and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, wanting never to return.

Last edited by Muffin; 10-07-2019 at 06:17 AM.
  #155  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
... What Asahi, Der Trihs and others in these boards have been doing in regards to their complete demonization and dehumanization of their political opponents (or even people who rather not pick sides) is the groundwork needed to create the conditions where political violence breaks out, I don't see right wingers regularly bringing up rhetoric of that caliber to the SDMB so I'm quite tired of, each time I call out that behaviour, to be met with "but but Right WIngers!".
Der Trihs is to the Board's other leftists about what WillFarnaby is to the Board's rational thinkers. To lump Der Trihs with other leftists on the Board is quite disingenuous.

My impression — possibly incorrect — is that asahi is relatively moderate but is so hugely inflamed with anger over Trump and the GOP — as are many of us — that he lets himself indulge in hateful hyperbole. (I can sympathize as I do this myself — I don't really believe that Pence and octopus are literally cockroaches; it's hyperbole.)

It is a simple fact that America's right-wing tends to advocate violence against their political opponents much more so than left-wingers. (Do you dispute this? Do you need cites?) It is Trump who has literally called on his supporters to attack his opponents. It is HurricaneDitka who declared that the mass murder by Timothy McVeigh was "not entirely unreasonable."

Speaking for myself: Yes, I know my level of anger seems almost unhealthy. I think releasing it anonymously here helps me cope with it. But the anger is well-founded. Anyone unaware of how HUGE the damage Trump is doing is, is very badly informed. Anyone not disgusted with the Republicans rallying around this heinous criminal traitor has lost their moral compass.
  #156  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:08 PM
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Except that's a right wing propaganda line, deliberately created during the Reagan administration to deflect attention from their lies. The media is and always has been overwhelmingly right wing, and more so all the time.

Ah, libertarians; "anarchists who want police protection from their slaves". Parasites who feed off of society and expect that society to protect them from their victims, who think the only proper function of government is to serve as iron boots to stomp the underclass down.

Like the rest of his supporters, your motivation is malice. You support bigotry, rape, torture, tyranny and murder. Every time somebody browner than you suffers, it is a victory for you. You are the exact opposite of fair minded; you are cruel and bigoted.

Not a single decent human being voted for Trump, because voting for Trump automatically disqualifies someone as a decent human being.
This is post #89. He is passionate.

Let's see:

1) Yes. (Remember all those liberal PBS shows in the 60s and 70s and 80s...now? Just kidding)

2) Sounds in accord with gist of the the libertarian posts I've seen, but from an adversarial perspective. You have to deal with this stuff. It's other people observing you in ways you might not see. Would you like to live an unexamined existence? Argue your truth.

3) “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”

4) Well we are in need of some principled trump voters to defend the humanity of their vote. Have you seen any? So this is untested, and unargued as of yet. It is not just a reason like that you wanted him to do "X" and he did it. It's more complicated than that. He is trolling the nation. So responses to him are heated, and they are the extreme frustrations of those being trolled, in a nation that has succumbed to trolling. Maybe you are used to it but it's definitely a new one on me. We haven't had a president who was a troll before and it is upsetting to those in the real and the virtual social media environments.
  #157  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:15 PM
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Are there no threads outside the Pit to discuss Trumpism and its GOP fellow travelers? Oh well ...

This look at Trump supporters in a poor Arkansas community may give insight:
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People like my neighbors hate that the government is spending money on those who don’t look like them and don’t live like them — but what I’ve learned since I came home is that they remain opposed even when they themselves stand to benefit.
  #158  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:51 PM
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And in the case of miscarriage, the parents were given the choice* of holding, at their own expense, funeral services (apparently based on the presumption that, at least sometimes, the parents had wanted to bring this pregnancy to term and raise a child).

*It often appears that many people (on both sides) either overlook or downplay the fact that having a baby is also a choice.
I think it's more that generally speaking, if you have to get a D&C as part of a miscarriage, it's typically treated as medical waste, and this would give the parents the option to treat the remains as something different. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; I can imagine many parents of miscarried children might opt for that, especially ones that are farther along, especially in the second trimester.
  #159  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:22 PM
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I rarely post at all, but I have to take exception to the Idea that people who have unpopular opinions are immediately shouted down on this message board. I am one of the few people on this board who believes that owning a firearm is a much needed right. I also agree that sane people understand that not every idiot should have unfettered access to any firearm they want. I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I'm just using this as an example. Pleeeease! don't comment on firearm ownership inn this thread! I'm using this example to illustrate that sane positions are rarely dismissed out of hand on this forum. Using this example, I would like to say that so far, the worst derogatory comment I've received is something to the effect of TLR, and that was when I got in to the minutia of calibers, lengths of barrels,ETC. What I'm saying in short(too late) is that I think that this board actually is a lot fairer to people who want to involve themselves in rational discourse than most. There are always exceptions. Not really interested in pointing fingers in that direction, we all know who we are.
  #160  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:35 PM
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I rarely post at all, but I have to take exception to the Idea that people who have unpopular opinions are immediately shouted down on this message board. .
Thank you for your post. Posts from people like you should count 10X, because you tend to think first, post later.

Respect.
  #161  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:15 PM
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I care more about regular people and how the treat each other and when morally repugnant attitudes are justified by pointing at a bogeyman as their origin I don't buy it, I'm sick to the back of my teeth of people blaming their toxic, dangerous behaviour on how bad other people are.
People who knowingly support someone who is responsible for violence under the color of law really shouldn't be lecturing the rest of us on challenging morally repugnant attitudes.

In other words, shut the fuck up.
  #162  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:36 PM
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IMHO, one of the biggest favors Trump has done for the Republican Party is that he has made "normal" Republican conservatism look good to many liberals. It used to be that McCain and Romney were reviled by the (D)'s in 2008 and 2012, but today they are praised by many Democrats. And here divemaster has posted a traditional, mainstream, Republican Christian worldview that many liberals would have reviled before 2015 or so, but now is held up as a solid, good-faith, even honorable, alternative-to-Trump worldview. The Overton Window has shifted.
It hasn't made "normal" conservatism look good to liberals, it's made it look a "solid, good-faith, even honorable" alternative to Trump as you said. There is a BIG difference.
  #163  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:27 PM
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The easy answer would’ve been that I would vote for Hillary. But unlike some (many) I believe voting for someone is an expression of agreement with them as a person and (much of) the platform they run on. And at the time, Hillary didn’t clear that bar for me. So then it becomes deciding between the concept of needing to agree to a decent extent with the person you vote for, or some strategy to minimize damage. Fortunately, in this country I can still, for now, make that determination and act on it as I see fit. In this particular (still hypothetical) example, going back with hindsight, I’m saying I don’t know. If you were to ask me to choose between eating a shit sandwich and being castrated with a rusty chainsaw, I’d probabl give the same answer, even if one of them has fewer long-term consequences and is at first sight less severe.
You said you grew up in the Netherlands. Did you live in NL as an adult and vote there? As you know, the Dutch parliamentary and party systems are very different from U.S. politics. The way the Dutch PM is selected is different from how U.S. presidents are. Again, I understand that you know this. But from reading your posts I get the impression that emotionally or sub-consciously you would choose a Presidential candidate here in much the same way a Dutch person would choose a Party and its Platform.

American presidents are not beholden to their party's platform or even to the party itself, really. It's all about the individual. Voters here in USA tend to keep that in mind.

Also no party is going to win a majority in the Tweede Kamer so Dutch governments are always coalitions. That alone is a big reason to use a different voting strategy when in the U.S.

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 10-10-2019 at 05:32 PM.
  #164  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
You said you grew up in the Netherlands. Did you live in NL as an adult and vote there? As you know, the Dutch parliamentary and party systems are very different from U.S. politics. The way the Dutch PM is selected is different from how U.S. presidents are. Again, I understand that you know this. But from reading your posts I get the impression that emotionally or sub-consciously you would choose a Presidential candidate here in much the same way a Dutch person would choose a Party and its Platform.

American presidents are not beholden to their party's platform or even to the party itself, really. It's all about the individual. Voters here in USA tend to keep that in mind.

Also no party is going to win a majority in the Tweede Kamer so Dutch governments are always coalitions. That alone is a big reason to use a different voting strategy when in the U.S.
Yes, I’m quite aware how the US system of electing presidents works. Presidents run on a platform, informed to greater or lesser extent by the platform of their party - but not necessarily dictated by them. I believe that voting for someone means agreement with at least a substantial part of their platform. And believing that they are both capable and worthy, to some extent, of leading this country. I understand that this is my very personal way of looking at this. I’m fine with others voting more strategically. But if there were a third party candidate that I agree with a lot, I would vote for them, even if that means taking a vote from the one of the two major party candidates that would be next closest to my view and efectively electing my least favorite candidate. Likewise, if I don’t find much of anything to agree with with either candidate, I won’t vote for either. That’s my way - you (collective you) do your way.
  #165  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
People who knowingly support someone who is responsible for violence under the color of law really shouldn't be lecturing the rest of us on challenging morally repugnant attitudes.

In other words, shut the fuck up.
People darkly muttering about the consequences of immoral actions (defined as supporting the wrong candidate/party/position) , talking about how there will be a reckoning, about deciding on citizenship - I think those people should shut the fck up, and maybe get back to their homework or something.
  #166  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:18 PM
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That was actually not my stance per se, I was just showing how ineffective and illogical that article was by pointing out flaws in the logic of the arguments.

...

I hope that helps. I really do like these types of conversation, as I've said, the best discussions go on in The Pit, because it is largely uninhibited thought, no formality. ...
Real.
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Well that was what is known as a "tell" isn't it?
drad dog: That's not what anomalous1 wrote. I don't believe you're supposed to change the content and meaning of another poster's quote like that. That's bush league shit and the mods never call you on it. They should.

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 10-10-2019 at 07:20 PM.
  #167  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
drad dog: That's not what anomalous1 wrote. I don't believe you're supposed to change the content and meaning of another poster's quote like that. That's bush league shit and the mods never call you on it. They should.
I didn't change anything he wrote. And I don't remember doing it a lot, only to make a cogent point. The last time it happened to me the poster added an emoji to my post. That's not OK, not only because I don't use emojis. Adding bolding, size, or colors I have seen before without incident. I'm OK with reporting it whatever the outcome. Anomalous has not been back after that. Was it offense or a good call on him?

Is that all? Getting a little worried?

Was that not a tell?

Last edited by drad dog; 10-10-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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