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  #51  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
I’ll let divemaster speak for him/herself, but it sounded like he/she had a cohesive, well-rounded world view that aligns with, say, much of Pence’s agenda pre-veep. No reason to suspect singleminded “one issue” obsessiveness. Those tend to be Trump voters, right?
Well I am trying to open up some discussion about single issue voting and what it means for the OP. That means for the poster too.

I'm not bashing the poster. But you seem to be trying to head off such a discussion by making sure we all like each other etc. and never talk about something that is uncomfortable.

One issue issues are obsessive by definition and design. trump voters are a recent phenomenon, but SIVs are from way way back right? He doesn't own them.
  #52  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:05 PM
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I’ll let divemaster speak for him/herself, but it sounded like he/she had a cohesive, well-rounded world view that aligns with, say, much of Pence’s agenda pre-veep. No reason to suspect singleminded “one issue” obsessiveness. Those tend to be Trump voters, right?
IMHO, one of the biggest favors Trump has done for the Republican Party is that he has made "normal" Republican conservatism look good to many liberals. It used to be that McCain and Romney were reviled by the (D)'s in 2008 and 2012, but today they are praised by many Democrats. And here divemaster has posted a traditional, mainstream, Republican Christian worldview that many liberals would have reviled before 2015 or so, but now is held up as a solid, good-faith, even honorable, alternative-to-Trump worldview. The Overton Window has shifted.
  #53  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:05 PM
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But it's what the OP was gonna get no matter what.

Like I said, threads like the OP get mostly two kinds of responses - liberals telling other liberals what conservatives really think, and liberals telling conservatives what conservatives really think.

If thoughtful reflection were going to come from such a poisoned well as the OP, Bone would not have moved it to the Pit. Yet here we are.

Regards,
Shodan
Hey, what better time to jump back into the fray than when i for the first time (ever?) find myself in total agreement with The Shodster. And its hardly a controversial statement. This board is populated (or at least the posts and threads of a political and/or debate nature are dominated) nearly exclusively by members of one particular branch on the left-leaning side of the Democratic Party.

When any forum features a lack of diversity in thought, belief and/or values, regardless of what the specific homogeneity of those concepts may be, the same phenomenon results. Namely a collective hive mind forms a cocoon around the intellectual space of that forum (I hate the term "hive mind"too but it's apt here) and new unique critical thinking on political-socio-cultural issues stagnates or just never really flourishes.

If independence of thought is expressed, it's characterized by members of the supermajority here (and elsewhere) as such a mockable, disingenuous, morally empty position in order to marginalize and silence any further expression of dissent from the hive mind positions. So in the end, you dont have many with dissenting thought hanging around such meeting places. And why would they? Masochism? How many liberal dopers are long term members of conservative forums? It's almost a seemingly inevitable quagmire for intellectual meeting grounds that debate or discuss polarizing and emotionally fraught subjects. Sooner or later, big bank always takes little bank.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Hey, quit being so hard on him! These are very fragile people. The slightest criticism can shatter them into a million shards of white-hot rage and fear.
Case in point.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 10-04-2019 at 03:07 PM.
  #54  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:07 PM
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The fundamental error here is trying to figure out the conservatives who support Trump. Trump got elected because a lot of rust-belt blue collar workers, who until then had been one of the most reliable Democratic voters (and vote organizers!) voted for him.
They voted for him not out of deeply held conservative beliefs (beliefs the man doesn’t have anyway). They voted for him because their way of life was (is!) under threat. They will likely not retire from a job paying 40 bucks an hour and with Union protection. Their kids certainly will not have that opportunity. Their way of life is evaporating. At the same time, the white middle aged male subsection of that contingent (a significant portion of the group) is being told they are and have been quite privileged, and it is implied or outright said, that it is time for them to hand over some of that privilege. Trump, by pushing every doorbell on the 50 floor apartment building of politics, hit on these issues, and rode them home.

Now it’s 3 years later. These people identified with him. They have been listening to media so thinly sliced that they will only ever hear stuff that aligns with their thinking. It is natural to have an us-vs- them mindset, especially if the other side is helping with the rhetoric for same. They may genuinely believe that the alternative to Trump is the end of the world. Good luck getting them back: moving further left isn’t going to get it done.

Another portion of the Trump voters are the religious right, they will vote for whoever the republican candidate is, no matter what, unless they advocate pro-choice policies.

Conservatives or Republicans who see Trump for what he is, don’t have much of an alternative. Some of us will write-in Bob Dole next election, if the man is still alive. And some of us will vote D, depending on the candidate.

Last edited by Isosleepy; 10-04-2019 at 03:09 PM.
  #55  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:07 PM
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Apparently for thoughtful reflection.

But come on now - do you even notice what's happening? You claim you want serious discussion. I point out how that probably can't happen because Dopers don't read things they are afraid might contradict them. Then divemaster posts the way you claim you want, and you don't even see his three points. followed by The SDMB never disappoints.

Regards,
Shodan
Well it can be a place for liberals to share insight into the OP, and also at the same time not be about what they "should have done." Those are two different things right?

If you wander down that road I'm not going to stop you. But lets define the thread adequately ok?
  #56  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:22 PM
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I am a small c, New England, William F. Buckley conservative.
I have no fucking idea what the current Republican party is thinking. Their actions do not align with anything I have held to be conservative values.
By the way, the "small c" guys walked away in disgust - starting with Bill Buckley himself. The current party is the Trump party, the fascist party, may as well call it the American Nazi party if / when it goes any further.
  #57  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:23 PM
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Hey, quit being so hard on him! These are very fragile people. The slightest criticism can shatter them into a million shards of white-hot rage and fear.
Poor little snowflakes.
  #58  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:38 PM
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Before you start appreciating me too much, reflect that I would likely be quite happy with a President Pence. (At least a "pre-Trump" Pence).
I wouldn't say I'd be "quite" happy, but I think a President Pence would be a return to more or less normal behavior within the Executive branch, and I suspect that the policies would moderate as well.
  #59  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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Poor little snowflakes.
Oh the irony. Every time the glorious orange one does anything all you skyscreamers come running here with spittle on your chin and burst blood vessels in your brain to start 2847w82 threads.
  #60  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:06 PM
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I wouldn't say I'd be "quite" happy, but I think a President Pence would be a return to more or less normal behavior within the Executive branch, and I suspect that the policies would moderate as well.
Yes. True, the Overton window has moved, regrettably. But at this point, to trot out that P J O’Rourke chestnut one more time, at least Pence is “wrong within normal parameters.”

At this point, I’d be THRILLED to have a President who simply didn’t tweet at the English level of a deranged three-year-old. How sad that simply this would make me so happy.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-04-2019 at 04:08 PM.
  #61  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:13 PM
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Hey, what better time to jump back into the fray than when i for the first time (ever?) find myself in total agreement with The Shodster. And its hardly a controversial statement. This board is populated (or at least the posts and threads of a political and/or debate nature are dominated) nearly exclusively by members of one particular branch on the left-leaning side of the Democratic Party.

When any forum features a lack of diversity in thought, belief and/or values, regardless of what the specific homogeneity of those concepts may be, the same phenomenon results. Namely a collective hive mind forms a cocoon around the intellectual space of that forum (I hate the term "hive mind"too but it's apt here) and new unique critical thinking on political-socio-cultural issues stagnates or just never really flourishes.

If independence of thought is expressed, it's characterized by members of the supermajority here (and elsewhere) as such a mockable, disingenuous, morally empty position in order to marginalize and silence any further expression of dissent from the hive mind positions. So in the end, you dont have many with dissenting thought hanging around such meeting places. And why would they? Masochism? How many liberal dopers are long term members of conservative forums? It's almost a seemingly inevitable quagmire for intellectual meeting grounds that debate or discuss polarizing and emotionally fraught subjects. Sooner or later, big bank always takes little bank.

Case in point.
You must be a Nazi!!11!

Be prepared to be the target of years of character assassination and blatant misrepresentation. The hive feels great collective pain when presented with information that leads to cognitive dissonance. Thankfully they don’t have the numbers in the real world to open up gulags yet.

Last edited by octopus; 10-04-2019 at 04:14 PM.
  #62  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:13 PM
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Oh the irony. Every time the glorious orange one does anything all you skyscreamers come running here with spittle on your chin and burst blood vessels in your brain to start 2847w82 threads.
This is true for sufficiently enormous values of “anything at all”. President grabby hands is pretty busy doing stuff on a near constant basis which in any other administration would have been the news-leader for a week-and-a-half, but doesn’t even break through the corruption/idiocy/holy-shit-that-can’t-be-real fatigue developed by most thinking people. I swear if he had been caught on tape directing the burglary of some office building across the Potomac, it wouldn’t make the top ten in at least some weeks.
  #63  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:22 PM
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Oh the irony. Every time the glorious orange one does anything all you skyscreamers come running here with spittle on your chin and burst blood vessels in your brain to start 2847w82 threads.
Ya right? I mean all Trump has to do is go on the South Lawn and suggest that a foreign adversary should investigate his main political rival for .... bad things...or something...

And everyone loses their shit! It's completely normal for a president to call for foreign adversaries to investigate his political enemies, amIright? Happens all the time!
  #64  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:54 PM
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In a thread last year, the question was asked why liberals tend to take electoral defeat harder than conservatives (YMMV, of course.) One theory put forth was that many conservatives tend to see it as akin to a football game, where Red outscored Blue 34-27 in the Electoral Super Bowl (or, conversely, maybe lost to the Blues 17-10.) [/SIZE]
Another is that whenever a conservative (or a "conservative" of Trump's ilk) is in charge, liberals know that everything will go to shit in a major way.

When a liberal (or a "liberal" of Obama's or either of the Clintons' ilk) is in charge, conservatives just wink at each other as they grouse and fume and pretend that everything is going to shit in a major way.
  #65  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:03 PM
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You must be a Nazi!!11!

Be prepared to be the target of years of character assassination and blatant misrepresentation.
Ha! You obviously haven't been 'round these parts long!
  #66  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:15 PM
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Case in point.
I took him as just saying that Shodan is a snowflake, personally.



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Well, I do appreciate that. Back in the day I contributed more to the political and cultural debates here. Back when having a different political viewpoint or opinion could be debated, with reasonable give-and-take. But nowdays, having a non-prevailing opinion (and on the SDMB, that's what a "conservative" position is) is not just seen as different, or even wrong. Now it's "evil."

"I'm pro-life; I believe life begins..."
When? Why? And is your reason for believing it one that you'd expect to persuade me (an atheist), or just one that makes you intractable to hearing scientific evidence to the contrary?

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Originally Posted by divemaster View Post
"I believe in a strong second amendment right to..."
Why? And do you expect your reasons to be persuasive to people who think that putting guns in the hands of civilians is a net negative to the country?

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"I belong to an evangelical church and believe that Jesus..."
I'm not and I don't. Um, happy birthday?

There are various kinds of debate.


Oh, and thank you for showing that not all conservatives are Trumpists. It's pretty hard to tell sometimes by the behavior of the loud conservatives on this board, which tend to range from "I'm a Trumpist!" to "I tell you I'm not a Trumpist, but I still defend Trump and everything related to him!"
  #67  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:16 PM
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Another is that whenever a conservative (or a "conservative" of Trump's ilk) is in charge, liberals know that everything will go to shit in a major way.

When a liberal (or a "liberal" of Obama's or either of the Clintons' ilk) is in charge, conservatives just wink at each other as they grouse and fume and pretend that everything is going to shit in a major way.
Or, they know that they will be leaving that liberal with a heaping pile of 'Murican dog shit to clean up, which will require tough decisions that are not part of the Conservative DNA. And they will do what they do best, vilify and lie about those decisions and blaming the liberals simply for being inheritors of their irresponsible governance. They play coniving politics brilliantly, thus ensuring their inevitable return to power come the next election, in order to bring "common sense conservatism" back to Washington to save us from the fiscally reckless drcisions of the pie-in-the-sky Obamas. So they kill two birds with one pile of dung: enrich themselves *and* work to slowly dismantle democracy.
  #68  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:17 PM
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Another is that whenever a conservative (or a "conservative" of Trump's ilk) is in charge, liberals know that everything will go to shit in a major way.

When a liberal (or a "liberal" of Obama's or either of the Clintons' ilk) is in charge, conservatives just wink at each other as they grouse and fume and pretend that everything is going to shit in a major way.
The conservatives in charge wink and pretend. Many conservatives "on the ground" buy in whole hog and are terrified, and are completely honest in their outrageous overreactions.
  #69  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:31 PM
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Oh the irony. Every time the glorious orange one does anything all you skyscreamers come running here with spittle on your chin and burst blood vessels in your brain to start 2847w82 threads.
I know! Just because migrants are drinking toilet water in a concentration camp doesn’t mean that the outrage needs to be on the same level as Obama disrespecting America with a tan suit!

Libtards need to get their priorities in order.
  #70  
Old 10-04-2019, 06:35 PM
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Case in point.
Just a little bit of gentle mockery. I know Shodan is capable of actual thoughtful discussion -- I've even had such exchanges with him. But not recently. Lately, it seems like he doesn't even try. And in this thread, he even threadshits at the very same time that another conservative comes in and makes a great and very thoughtful post about conservatism and Trump, proving that this board is not what he says it is.

So when he doesn't even try to make a thoughtful post, poo-pooing even the idea of having a thoughtful discussion, I rib him a little. No big deal!
  #71  
Old 10-04-2019, 07:23 PM
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Yes. True, the Overton window has moved, regrettably. But at this point, to trot out that P J O’Rourke chestnut one more time, at least Pence is “wrong within normal parameters.”
Pence is the Scum who forced Indiana women to ultrasound and hold expensive funerals for their fetuses. His resume reads like a litany of the worst and ugliest GOPshit. He would be BY FAR the most right-wing nasty to ever occupy the Oval.
  #72  
Old 10-04-2019, 07:41 PM
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Hey, what better time to jump back into the fray than when i for the first time (ever?) find myself in total agreement with The Shodster. And its hardly a controversial statement. This board is populated (or at least the posts and threads of a political and/or debate nature are dominated) nearly exclusively by members of one particular branch on the left-leaning side of the Democratic Party.

When any forum features a lack of diversity in thought, belief and/or values, regardless of what the specific homogeneity of those concepts may be, the same phenomenon results. Namely a collective hive mind forms a cocoon around the intellectual space of that forum (I hate the term "hive mind"too but it's apt here) and new unique critical thinking on political-socio-cultural issues stagnates or just never really flourishes.

If independence of thought is expressed, it's characterized by members of the supermajority here (and elsewhere) as such a mockable, disingenuous, morally empty position in order to marginalize and silence any further expression of dissent from the hive mind positions. So in the end, you dont have many with dissenting thought hanging around such meeting places. And why would they? Masochism? How many liberal dopers are long term members of conservative forums? It's almost a seemingly inevitable quagmire for intellectual meeting grounds that debate or discuss polarizing and emotionally fraught subjects. Sooner or later, big bank always takes little bank.

Case in point.
So I take it that introspection about conservatism in the US today is not in the cards for you and your answer would be No?

What do you think wil happen? You know it is a power move to do that, move towards being thoughful about oneself.

Too much "hive" talk is just lazy shorthand for "I don't introspect, thank very much. That overton window doesn't move by itself"

Last edited by drad dog; 10-04-2019 at 07:42 PM.
  #73  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:09 PM
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Pence is the Scum who forced Indiana women to ultrasound and hold expensive funerals for their fetuses.
What.....??
  #74  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:10 PM
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That a lot of liberals, particularly on the SDMB, can't stand to read something with which they disagree but they find difficult to refute, is more an observation than an intention.
There is not a lot I can do to make people read what I actually post, rather than have them react to what they think I post, or want me to have posted, or have them tell me what I posted and what I meant by it.

It is not possible to phrase something carefully enough that a person with enough of the right kind of motivation cannot misinterpret it. Certainly not on the SDMB. Cite: half the posts in this thread, any other thread about Trump, any thread about race, any thread about gender, or any other thread that creates a disturbance in the liberal Force.
It could be. I rather doubt, however, if you are going to get a whole bunch of thoughtful reflection from liberals in the Pit about what they should have done, or not done, that contributed to Trump's Presidency. Unless 'he is even worse than I thought' counts as thoughtful reflection.
The board deals with reality by Pitting it. Sometimes it doesn't work, which leaves it rather at a loss.

Regards,
Shodan
Well if you should attempt to chime in, the concept for me is how are the three things in the title related, if they are. It probably would need to be defended if you were to just say "What me worry?" or something like that. That's not enough for the Shodestar is it? I mean we are sentient adults looking out at a shared nation. Nothing to see? If it is not a legitimate intellectual inquiry to think about it, for a conservative, then what does that mean? Have the conservatives given up on literacy? What kind of intellectual, what kind of fighter of ignorance cedes and surrenders the very idea of thinking about ones own behavior to "liberal" others?

You know not every political thread has to have liberals coming in to say what they did wrong. (This one is one of them) It depends on the OP and how it's written. Every thread isn't politically equal either. Some threads are not supposed to be perfectly balanced. (Just start an opposing thread if desired.) This thread might look bad for righties. So what? It's an intellectual inquiry. Griping about the hive mind is getting old isn't it? Arent you sick of it yourself? It is an impediment to knowledge and a boon for ignorance because it stops all motion.
  #75  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:00 PM
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So I take it that introspection about conservatism in the US today is not in the cards for you and your answer would be No?
Are you assuming Ambivalid is a conservative?

I see this a little too often around here. Someone disagrees with a point about politics and then the immediate assumption is they're playing for the other team.
  #76  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:25 PM
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They will not; they will simply slink off, point out how "both sides did it," claim they would have been better if liberals hadn't been assholes, and whitewash their history.

Fuck that -- I'm gonna rub their nose in the shit they left on the carpet for as long as I live.
  #77  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:33 PM
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So I take it that introspection about conservatism in the US today is not in the cards for you and your answer would be No?

What do you think wil happen? You know it is a power move to do that, move towards being thoughful about oneself.

Too much "hive" talk is just lazy shorthand for "I don't introspect, thank very much. That overton window doesn't move by itself"
Way to read want you want into what ive written. This is silly and it doesn't address any of the points i made in my post. You've also sort of validated what you clearly haven't bothered to do more than briefly skim for buzzwords to latch onto and engage with in your usual provocative, unnecessairly aggressive and confrontational posting style.

And to answer, what do i think will happen if a bunch of non-existent people start examining and taking personal stock of their non-existent political beliefs? I think nothing will happen. Other a bunch of time will pass and a lot of circles will be jerked.
  #78  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:34 PM
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I am a small c, New England, William F. Buckley conservative.
I have no fucking idea what the current Republican party is thinking. Their actions do not align with anything I have held to be conservative values.
William F. Buckley was a CIA operative and an FBI informant who explicitly supported a totalitarian state to defeat the Russians. He would be aligned with the Democratic Party of today for sure.
  #79  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:43 PM
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Way to read want you want into what ive written. This is silly and it doesn't address any of the points i made in my post. You've also sort of validated what you clearly haven't bothered to do more than briefly skim for buzzwords to latch onto and engage with in your usual provocative, unnecessairly aggressive and confrontational posting style.

And to answer, what do i think will happen if a bunch of non-existent people start examining and taking personal stock of their non-existent political beliefs? I think nothing will happen. Other a bunch of time will pass and a lot of circles will be jerked.
I took you to be saying there is a hive mind on the left. I don't know your history. Were you?

I find the "hive mind!" accusation more stifling of communication than any supposed hive mind of liberals agreeing with each other, (as if there's something weird about it.) It comes up as the default hive-like conservative response to any rhetorical problem they get into. Meaningless. Anyone can post here for free. People should make it good, and be honest, wherever you come from politically.
  #80  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:54 PM
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I took you to be saying there is a hive mind on the left. I don't know your history. Were you?

I find the "hive mind!" accusation more stifling of communication than any supposed hive mind of liberals agreeing with each other, (as if there's something weird about it.) It comes up as the default hive-like conservative response to any rhetorical problem they get into. Meaningless. Anyone can post here for free. People should make it good, and be honest, wherever you come from politically.
The "hive mind" is on *this board*. I really don't think my words were all that hard to parse.
  #81  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:25 PM
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Hey, what better time to jump back into the fray than when i for the first time (ever?) find myself in total agreement with The Shodster. And its hardly a controversial statement. This board is populated (or at least the posts and threads of a political and/or debate nature are dominated) nearly exclusively by members of one particular branch on the left-leaning side of the Democratic Party.

When any forum features a lack of diversity in thought, belief and/or values, regardless of what the specific homogeneity of those concepts may be, the same phenomenon results. Namely a collective hive mind forms a cocoon around the intellectual space of that forum (I hate the term "hive mind"too but it's apt here) and new unique critical thinking on political-socio-cultural issues stagnates or just never really flourishes.

If independence of thought is expressed, it's characterized by members of the supermajority here (and elsewhere) as such a mockable, disingenuous, morally empty position in order to marginalize and silence any further expression of dissent from the hive mind positions. So in the end, you dont have many with dissenting thought hanging around such meeting places. And why would they? Masochism? How many liberal dopers are long term members of conservative forums? It's almost a seemingly inevitable quagmire for intellectual meeting grounds that debate or discuss polarizing and emotionally fraught subjects. Sooner or later, big bank always takes little bank.

Case in point.
OK, sorry. I got your politics wrong and didn't read closely enough.

Not much to add, but let me just say what I notice, and it's not just mocking, marginalizing and silencing conservatives. I mean really?

I see a problem of the political affecting conservatives ability to do critical thinking about themselves. I base this on the constant choruses you hear, with no arguments or follow through that they are victims who are an oppressed minority here.

I hate it when independence of thought is mocked and it happens all the time here, to people close to me. It sucks, but I don't see that in the left right dynamic here. The right wing here are not independent of thought (any more than anybody else, no offense) and it is just coddling them to indulge the victim routine.
  #82  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:10 AM
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Except that the old "Good vs. Evil" thing isn't a factor any more for a lot of them-the only thing that matters is "winning", and it really doesn't matter how it is accomplished.
I have a lot of trouble believing that Trump is going to get anywhere near the same amount of votes this time around. Yes, he has his diehards, but he's not going to get as many out of the overlooked middle/moderate voters. And I don't think any opposing candidate is going to inspire the "nevers" quite like Hillary did. And I think there are going to be some Republicans who just can't quite justify pulling that level for him again.
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  #83  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:01 AM
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I haven't seen much if any of this here. He has non supporters here and never trumpers too, but they seem to spend all their time owning the libs. Is it possible for any of them to engage in thoughtful reflection about how they got to here in 2019.

I mean the denial is getting to be a tsunami. How long can you trumpet victory in the face of a great national shame?

I would also like to say I actually wholly endorse and echo nearly everything Velocity said. Very well said!

Ambivalid makes a very strong and good argument as well.


Well I'll keep up with the OP here.

I'll start out with personal anecdotes, and a little history. I had been left leaning for most of my life, most of the friendships I've had throughout my life were with left-leaners/Democrats. While I've always payed attention to the political arena, and wanted some change, the complacency and ineptitude of career politicians bothered me. I voted for Obama in his first term hoping for that. I was very disappointed. More ineffectual, what was I thinking voting for some Chicago Politician, I should've known better being born and raised in the same city.

I started getting disturbed about how many people I knew personally and of that were voting left-wing because it was the "cool thing to do" rather than actually knowing anything even elementary about politics. I wondered where they got their ideas from, what motivated them. TV. Media. 90% of it was left wing. The teachers, the bands/concerts, the college instructors, the newspapers.

This was saturating people with only one sided ideas. I decided to think for myself, look up different media sources, as well as those from other countries, read different books and compare fact vs. fiction, plausible vs. implausible, and perhaps most importantly, common sense. and I came to find myself as a libertarian. I believe in charity, but towing your own weight, less regulation, free thinking, free speech, right to defense. I decided that the policies conjured by the left were in the realm and fantasy and were not feasible, repeating the same mistakes repeated elsewhere in the 19th century. I decided that I didn't like Democracy as they defined it. I realized that I live in a Republic. Then I decided I do not like many Conservatives for their evangelical on sided thinking that infringed on free speech, I did not like Republicans (the NeoCon RINO's) who caved to the pressures of the other side of the aisle and wanted to push shit like the PATRIOT ACT. I found where I fit, libertarian ("Don't fuck with me, I won't fuck with you, and I don't owe you SHIT!")

As for voting for Trump, I never thought I would.

It was fully reinforced and pushed me further to the right when the Obama era racial obsessions of the media began to unnerve me. It culminated with them almost saying outright "White Male Heterosexuals Are Evil" to today where it is plainly said without reservation, where illusions and logical fallacies such as "white privilege".

I noticed what it started to become, using race to start arguments and calling someone racist to end them/when the argument wasn't going as intended. I noticed that the media (not just the news) and college professors were actually supportive of radical ideas such as forcefully taking money from those who earned it, and giving it to those who did not. I noticed that Merit was no longer existent. I started noticing people could not take a joke, so bored with their lives they look for a reason to complain. Political Correctness, a poison to society, went unchecked.

This is where I, a normally fair minded person, one who would actually get along with everyone on this message board, who would give the "shirt off his back" (if you can accept that cliche) to someone in need and always practiced being an egalitarian....... voted for Trump. The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:29 AM
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OK, sorry. I got your politics wrong and didn't read closely enough.

Not much to add, but let me just say what I notice, and it's not just mocking, marginalizing and silencing conservatives. I mean really?

I see a problem of the political affecting conservatives ability to do critical thinking about themselves. I base this on the constant choruses you hear, with no arguments or follow through that they are victims who are an oppressed minority here.

I hate it when independence of thought is mocked and it happens all the time here, to people close to me. It sucks, but I don't see that in the left right dynamic here. The right wing here are not independent of thought (any more than anybody else, no offense) and it is just coddling them to indulge the victim routine.
I am absolutely not putting any of the scant few actual posters here who hold right wing, or conservative, political beliefs up as any kind of victim of anything other than being outside the hive mind majority. And it's not really accurate to even describe that as victimhood or oppression, because these conservatives have the same abilities to not frequent/participate in forums that are hostile to their politics as liberals do to not participate in forums that are hostile to *their* politics.

But those that do choose to stay, they are subject to an entirely different set of unofficial and unspoken rules and standards than theiir liberal counterparts who exponentially outnumber them.

When i say "independence of thought" I am speaking in the context of thought that challenges or goes against the hive-mind myopic uniformity of thought within a forum, a forum such as ours. The exact same thing would be true about a handful of liberals choosing to become regular contributors on right wing dominated forums.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:56 AM
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This is where I, a normally fair minded person, one who would actually get along with everyone on this message board, who would give the "shirt off his back" (if you can accept that cliche) to someone in need and always practiced being an egalitarian....... voted for Trump. The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
But, what it is looking to be then is that the swing actually ended confirming a lot of what the ones on the other side (and even conservatives that looked at Trump) warned you about.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevede.../#425561922713
Quote:
The trifecta of disappearing tax refunds, falling farm incomes, and an extended government shutdown, along with the failure to secure funding for the wall are the most powerful shocks to the cocoon so far. The shutdown alone made significant inroads into Trump’s support. As of today (Wednesday), only two days before the Friday deadline, Trump hasn’t ruled out the possibility of yet another shutdown, although most see that as “a sequel no one needs.” But who knows? As Bret Stephens points out in the New York Times, Trump is perfectly capable of “committing suicide twice.”
Turns out that one point of accusing others of crying wolf, (the critics of economic injustice, racism, etc) misses one point of the story. That there was a wolf, just like in the original tale.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:29 AM
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I am absolutely not putting any of the scant few actual posters here who hold right wing, or conservative, political beliefs up as any kind of victim of anything other than being outside the hive mind majority. And it's not really accurate to even describe that as victimhood or oppression, because these conservatives have the same abilities to not frequent/participate in forums that are hostile to their politics as liberals do to not participate in forums that are hostile to *their* politics.

But those that do choose to stay, they are subject to an entirely different set of unofficial and unspoken rules and standards than theiir liberal counterparts who exponentially outnumber them.

When i say "independence of thought" I am speaking in the context of thought that challenges or goes against the hive-mind myopic uniformity of thought within a forum, a forum such as ours. The exact same thing would be true about a handful of liberals choosing to become regular contributors on right wing dominated forums.
I do not frequent this site as much as I would like or participate as much in the forums due to the same. I don't have a victim complex, nor do I care. It's just illogical sometimes to argue against those that, as you said, Ambivalid exponentially outnumber you. To be honest, that doesn't even bother.


Not to speak indirectly/in general:

I would love to explore new ideas or be convinced of something different or my mind to be opened to something else. So far, all I ever get (as many others do) for trying to participate is the exhausting amount of equivocating anything right of center as supporting racism, bigotry or white supremacy. AND BE SERIOUS. In fact, ALL of those I've ever met who were right-of-center or even farther do not give two shits about race, sex/gender, abilities etc... Just pure belief in the merit system, capitalism and common sense. They do not believe in excessive government, they/we believe everyone is equal and nobody needs help, because to suggest someone needs help is to suggest that they are inferior and cannot do things for themselves, race does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Simple.



Sorry for rant, exhausted.
  #87  
Old 10-05-2019, 02:42 AM
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I would love to explore new ideas or be convinced of something different or my mind to be opened to something else. So far, all I ever get (as many others do) for trying to participate is the exhausting amount of equivocating anything right of center as supporting racism, bigotry or white supremacy. AND BE SERIOUS. In fact, ALL of those I've ever met who were right-of-center or even farther do not give two shits about race, sex/gender, abilities etc... Just pure belief in the merit system, capitalism and common sense. They do not believe in excessive government, they/we believe everyone is equal and nobody needs help, because to suggest someone needs help is to suggest that they are inferior and cannot do things for themselves, race does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Simple.
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  #88  
Old 10-05-2019, 02:51 AM
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I'm one of those evangelical social conservatives that never drunk the Trump kool-aid....
Thank you divemaster ! You and I would find much to agree on — I also thought TPP was a good idea — even though I'm an agnostic social moderate. I support Women's Choice but would rather leave this to the states than have the Federal Roe v Wade. We'd find much to disagree on, but it sounds like we'd unify against putting criminals in charge!

You support Pence. What do you think of allegations that Pence participated in the criminal dialog with Ukraine?

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... I started getting disturbed about how many people I knew personally and of that were voting left-wing because it was the "cool thing to do" rather than actually knowing anything even elementary about politics. I wondered where they got their ideas from, what motivated them. TV. Media. 90% of it was left wing. The teachers, the bands/concerts, the college instructors, the newspapers.
... I found where I fit, libertarian ("Don't fuck with me, I won't fuck with you, and I don't owe you SHIT!")

As for voting for Trump, I never thought I would.

It was fully reinforced and pushed me further to the right when the Obama era racial obsessions of the media began to unnerve me. It culminated with them almost saying outright "White Male Heterosexuals Are Evil" to today where it is plainly said without reservation, where illusions and logical fallacies such as "white privilege".... The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
Thanks anomalous1 ! I think many of your ideas are mistaken, but you seem righteous and sincere. It would be good to have a polite debate with you. Your comments confirm what I and others worry about — that social progressivism is pushing some voters into the arms of the right-wing.

Even some R's now agree that Trump's call to Ukraine was criminal, and that he should be removed from office. How do you feel about that?

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You must be a Nazi!!11!

Be prepared to be the target of years of character assassination and blatant misrepresentation. The hive feels great collective pain when presented with information that leads to cognitive dissonance. Thankfully they don’t have the numbers in the real world to open up gulags yet.
Hive mind? Gulags? Oh right, you're the oaf that Googled "left-wing" and found a Biden=Stalin equation or some such.

You're welcome to make posts which aren't content-free, if you're capable of it, commenting on the Ukraine criminal or whatever. Meanwhile: how's the weather where you are? Got your doorknob fixed yet?

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William F. Buckley was a CIA operative and an FBI informant who explicitly supported a totalitarian state to defeat the Russians. He would be aligned with the Democratic Party of today for sure.
In the 0.99999... = 1 debate you'd be the guy arguing that 0.99999... = 43. In a physics thread you'd complain that quarks are enslaving leptons and that Van der Waals force wouldn't exist if the statists hadn't used violence. Welcome back!
  #89  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:11 AM
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I wondered where they got their ideas from, what motivated them. TV. Media. 90% of it was left wing. The teachers, the bands/concerts, the college instructors, the newspapers.
Except that's a right wing propaganda line, deliberately created during the Reagan administration to deflect attention from their lies. The media is and always has been overwhelmingly right wing, and more so all the time.

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I found where I fit, libertarian ("Don't fuck with me, I won't fuck with you, and I don't owe you SHIT!")
Ah, libertarians; "anarchists who want police protection from their slaves". Parasites who feed off of society and expect that society to protect them from their victims, who think the only proper function of government is to serve as iron boots to stomp the underclass down.

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Originally Posted by anomalous1 View Post
This is where I, a normally fair minded person, one who would actually get along with everyone on this message board, who would give the "shirt off his back" (if you can accept that cliche) to someone in need and always practiced being an egalitarian....... voted for Trump. The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
Like the rest of his supporters, your motivation is malice. You support bigotry, rape, torture, tyranny and murder. Every time somebody browner than you suffers, it is a victory for you. You are the exact opposite of fair minded; you are cruel and bigoted.

Not a single decent human being voted for Trump, because voting for Trump automatically disqualifies someone as a decent human being.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:23 AM
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Damn fine Post #84, anomalous1. I was reading along going '..yep, yep, yep. Nailed it'.

For me at least. Thanks!
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:25 AM
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And then I read a Der Trihs post....

Yeesh.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:41 AM
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Oh, and thank you for showing that not all conservatives are Trumpists. It's pretty hard to tell sometimes by the behavior of the loud conservatives on this board, which tend to range from "I'm a Trumpist!" to "I tell you I'm not a Trumpist, but I still defend Trump and everything related to him!"
Conservatives you notice on this board != conservatives on this board.
I posit that most who are in the range from mildly left of center to full-on conservative don’t participate in discussions on politics. There is just nothing to be gained from dialogue with posters like you, Asahi, and quite a few others. It always goes the same way. Conservative =stupid = evil = so obviously and incontrovertibly wrong that holding any conservative opinion makes you an idiot, a racist, evil. Discussions like that are not interesting. Now, a tiny handful of supposedly right-of-center posters engages despite that. I’m not calling them trolls, but they must get some sort of a kick out of the experience. And in some cases they’re just not very smart. The notion that they reflect in any way the spectrum that exists right-of-center is ridiculous.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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Thank you for your input anomalous1. I have a question -

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...This is where I, a normally fair minded person, one who would actually get along with everyone on this message board, who would give the "shirt off his back" (if you can accept that cliche) to someone in need and always practiced being an egalitarian....... voted for Trump. The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
Did Trump turn out to be the President you thought he would be? If so, in what way is he evening things out?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:06 AM
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Conservatives you notice on this board != conservatives on this board.
I posit that most who are in the range from mildly left of center to full-on conservative don’t participate in discussions on politics. There is just nothing to be gained from dialogue with posters like you, Asahi, and quite a few others. It always goes the same way. Conservative =stupid = evil = so obviously and incontrovertibly wrong that holding any conservative opinion makes you an idiot, a racist, evil. Discussions like that are not interesting. Now, a tiny handful of supposedly right-of-center posters engages despite that. I’m not calling them trolls, but they must get some sort of a kick out of the experience. And in some cases they’re just not very smart. The notion that they reflect in any way the spectrum that exists right-of-center is ridiculous.
Did you vote for Trump? And if so, may I ask why?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:22 AM
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This is where I, a normally fair minded person, one who would actually get along with everyone on this message board, who would give the "shirt off his back" (if you can accept that cliche) to someone in need and always practiced being an egalitarian....... voted for Trump. The pendulum had to swing the other way to even it out.
Do you now regret that vote now that it's turned out that opposite side of the pendulum is, apparently, a self-serving criminal who is willing to burn the country down to avoid being held to task for his crimes?

Or are you a Trump supporter who will continue to defend him?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:55 AM
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Did you vote for Trump? And if so, may I ask why?
I did not. Not everyone falls neatly into the left/right pigeon holes. Some of the things important to me are traditionally conservative. Some are clearly liberal. I am nominally Republican, but not a very good one. I don’t think I’ve ever voted a straight party ticket.

I didn’t vote for Hillary either. I left it blank. At the time, neither candidate represented me, so fuck ‘m both. In the Republican primaries, there were a few candidates which I possibly could’ve liked, but they were marginalized pretty early in the process. On the Democratic side, it felt like going through the motions to get to the long overdue coronation of Mrs Clinton. It was easy to disengage.

I would’ve voted for Obama in his 2 elections- but wasn’t naturalized yet. I would’ve voted “W” Bush both times. I wouldn’t have voted Clinton for his first term, but I would have his second.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:07 AM
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I did not. Not everyone falls neatly into the left/right pigeon holes. Some of the things important to me are traditionally conservative. Some are clearly liberal. I am nominally Republican, but not a very good one. I don’t think I’ve ever voted a straight party ticket.

I didn’t vote for Hillary either. I left it blank. At the time, neither candidate represented me, so fuck ‘m both. In the Republican primaries, there were a few candidates which I possibly could’ve liked, but they were marginalized pretty early in the process. On the Democratic side, it felt like going through the motions to get to the long overdue coronation of Mrs Clinton. It was easy to disengage.

I would’ve voted for Obama in his 2 elections- but wasn’t naturalized yet. I would’ve voted “W” Bush both times. I wouldn’t have voted Clinton for his first term, but I would have his second.
If you had the ability to go back in time to the 2016 election with all the knowledge you have today, would you still have abstained from voting?
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:14 AM
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Conservatives you notice on this board != conservatives on this board.
I posit that most who are in the range from mildly left of center to full-on conservative don’t participate in discussions on politics. There is just nothing to be gained from dialogue with posters like you, Asahi, and quite a few others. It always goes the same way. Conservative =stupid = evil = so obviously and incontrovertibly wrong that holding any conservative opinion makes you an idiot, a racist, evil. Discussions like that are not interesting. Now, a tiny handful of supposedly right-of-center posters engages despite that. I’m not calling them trolls, but they must get some sort of a kick out of the experience. And in some cases they’re just not very smart. The notion that they reflect in any way the spectrum that exists right-of-center is ridiculous.
If they are so tiny a handful why are they the voices being heard the most? If the supposed majority of Conservatives didn't like they way they have been represented nothing stops them from grabbing Mr. Mike and taking control of the stage...unless of course that "tiny handful" is not as tiny as you say they are. I'm not noticing much (if any) backlash towards this "tiny handful" of spongebrains from the supposed majority of conservatives that don't think the same way. Could it be because you get to keep your hands clean while they do the dirty work?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 10-05-2019 at 09:14 AM.
  #99  
Old 10-05-2019, 09:29 AM
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I did not. Not everyone falls neatly into the left/right pigeon holes. Some of the things important to me are traditionally conservative. Some are clearly liberal. I am nominally Republican, but not a very good one. I don’t think I’ve ever voted a straight party ticket.

I didn’t vote for Hillary either. I left it blank. At the time, neither candidate represented me, so fuck ‘m both. In the Republican primaries, there were a few candidates which I possibly could’ve liked, but they were marginalized pretty early in the process. On the Democratic side, it felt like going through the motions to get to the long overdue coronation of Mrs Clinton. It was easy to disengage.

I would’ve voted for Obama in his 2 elections- but wasn’t naturalized yet. I would’ve voted “W” Bush both times. I wouldn’t have voted Clinton for his first term, but I would have his second.
Hey, thanks.

The way I saw it was that I was not thrilled by Hillary, and don't like dynasties, I wanted anyone but Trump. I didn't despise him before the election, but knew enough about him over the years to, well, avoid anything Trump. He has always pegged my crooked asshole meter.

Assholes are best avoided in everything you do. I'm very non-confrontational.

I think that while neither may represent you, it's a good idea to vote for someone that is less likely to fuck up the country. It's not always dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. Doing what is best is the path to take. We make these choices every waking hour. The choice was crystal clear.

I may have voted for Kasich if the GOP had put him up. I would have certainly looked into him more thoroughly.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:47 AM
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If they are so tiny a handful why are they the voices being heard the most? If the supposed majority of Conservatives didn't like they way they have been represented nothing stops them from grabbing Mr. Mike and taking control of the stage...unless of course that "tiny handful" is not as tiny as you say they are. I'm not noticing much (if any) backlash towards this "tiny handful" of spongebrains from the supposed majority of conservatives that don't think the same way. Could it be because you get to keep your hands clean while they do the dirty work?
Becaise they see no value and no point in attempting to engage in good faith with the mob-mentality of the disingenuous (disingenous in their interaction towards dissent) supermajority of extremely like-minded posters with opposing poligical beliefs. This tiny minority of loud-mothed confrontational jerkish right wingers who dominate the voice of the right, *here* at the "San Francisco" of forums, doesnt represent the broader views of the conservative ideology/movement on a national level, this is true.

But why should those other conservatives who post on this board in non-political forums get sucked into time-wasting, head-bashing foolishness that never produces anything of value for *anyone* involved? Things such as trying to "correct the record" for all the left wingers here who may have been misinformed as to what the full spectrum of conservative ideology really encompassed. Ha. Theze posters may not enjoy seeing their belief/value systems being mis/incompletely portrayed by supposed allies. But it doesn't really make one shit of a difference overall because the *real* kings of mischaracterization and false portrayals of conservative positions *are the liberals here* who don't let legitimate debate ensue which may disrupt hive mind tranquility and equilibrium.

So basically, these handful of loud, not necessarily representative of the larger conservative philosophy posters, arent causing *any fucking harm whatsoever* to the ability of liberals here to gain a clearer, truer perspective on what it means to be conservative, because they were *never actually interested in a genuine discovery of truth in the first place*.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 10-05-2019 at 09:47 AM.
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