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  #51  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:34 AM
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But they will lose, or face term limits. Either way, this is only temporary, history has shown us that.
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  #52  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:37 AM
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But they will lose, or face term limits. Either way, this is only temporary, history has shown us that.
This is meaningless nonsense. History has shown is a lot of things, and not all of them had good outcomes. And the things that can happen aren’t limited by history.

History has shown us that a brutal system of human bondage can go on for two and a half centuries only ending after a four-year-long war that killed 800,000 people, followed by another century of an apartheid like regime.

The only person who isn’t worried is the one who believes E and the people E cares about are safe from any danger.
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  #53  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:47 AM
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No, the only people not worried are not pessimists, cynics, and alarmists. The people not worrying have seen this played out a few times in their own lifetime, they have seen how the country swings from right to left and back again. They have seen the alarmists declaring the end of civilization as we know it, yet we're still here, and will continue to be here for some time, not destroyed by some assholes in DC or their abuse of power and the constitution.
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  #54  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:00 AM
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The 2nd amendment guarantees the 1st. I suggest you don't mess with either.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:11 AM
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Say, that would make an awesome bumper sticker! You could sell it to gun people!
  #56  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:29 AM
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The people not worrying have seen this played out a few times in their own lifetime,
You realize that the things that people have seen "played out" within their lifetimes have sometimes resulted in great harm to individuals? Sometimes a large number of them.

There are also the things that have happened just beyond their lifetimes. One's lifetime isn't a very good metric, especially when you limit your assessments based only on what has directly affected you. There have been some monstrously horrific things that have happened in people's lifetimes, but maybe it happened to someone just far enough away that they aren't taken into account.

What has happened to you isn't a very good metric for what might happen.

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they have seen how the country swings from right to left and back again.
Some of those swings have been deadly, and the next swing might go farther and take longer than the last. This perspective is almost willfully myopic.

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yet we're still here
That's the point, isn't it. You're still here. And you expect to survive whatever might happen. There are people who didn't survive. Their point of view shouldn't be discounted.

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and will continue to be here for some time, not destroyed by some assholes in DC or their abuse of power and the constitution.
You think calling someone an "asshole" deprives em of es ability to harm people?

Last edited by Acsenray; 10-10-2019 at 08:30 AM.
  #57  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:43 AM
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How does it feel, being so fucking cynical all the time? The point is, we are still here, as a country, and we will be here for generations to come. We will not be destroyed by the assholes temporarily in power. And you missed the point about seeing history played out in a lifetime. We have seen it played out over countless lifetimes. We have seen the way history repeats itself, we have seen the way that we have overcome the worst the government has to offer, we have survived corrupt politicians and administrations, and we will continue to do so. No one but an absolute cynic would claim otherwise.
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  #58  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:01 AM
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This isn't a tornado that will soon pass; this is a manmade disaster manufactured by millions of angry white christian bitter-as-fuck morons. And ain't nothin you or I can do to appease 'em.

We had the same shit, to a lesser degree, with Bush Sr., then we had 8 years of Clinton. Then we had the Shrub, then Obama. Neither Bush, despite their best efforts, managed to destroy the country. We had right wing mania during their years, then we swung back to the left. We'll do that again, if not in the next election, then the one after that. This country will survive, unless global warming gets us. Now why don't you be a good little troll and go back to watching Alex Jones videos.
This probably highlights THE problem in today's America.

We endeavor to wait until WE are back in power instead of working together to find solutions to problems that both sides can advocate for.

Divide and Conquer. Only with this mindset , it's let them have their fun until we get the reins back then we can have ours.

And the only people doing the conquering are those funding the political parties …
Get the money out of politics and most of the problems go away with it.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:07 AM
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We endeavor to wait until WE are back in power instead of working together to find solutions to problems that both sides can advocate for.
We have people in congress fighting for that, but it takes both sides working together, and one side is clearly not working with the other side. And we do not "endeavor to wait until WE are back in power". We have democrats in congress, more democrats running, working to try to stabilize and fix the wrongs the right has perpetrated. We are not just idly sitting by, we are fighting, not just complaining about how bad it is.

Get the money out of politics and most of the problems go away with it.
We're working on it, one state at a time.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:12 AM
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How does it feel, being so fucking cynical all the time?
I'm not being cynical now, and I am hardly ever cynical, not to speak of "all the time." You have a very narrow perspective on the world around you, and a very myopic view of the lessons of history.

We have survived? That "we" is meaningless. Think of all the people who aren't included in that "we." Think of all the people who can't afford to let history play out to its rosy ending that you think history mandates. Looking back at that history you cling to, think about who didn't make it to end up included in your "we."
  #61  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:20 AM
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The point is, you increasingly infuriating fucktard, is that this country as a whole is not being destroyed. That is the point you are purposely, cynically, twisting to win a pointless argument. The point does not concern individuals or groups of people, the point concerns this country as a whole. If you can't grasp that concept, then you're too fucking stupid, and cynical, to argue with.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:08 AM
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Surprised no one has posted this yet: New York Times op-ed: Free Speech is Killing Us
I hope everyone interested in the thread topic reads that article. Definitely worth spending one of your five(?) N.Y. Times monthly views.
  #63  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:34 AM
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Classic confirmation bias, right there. It says what I think, so it must be right.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:40 AM
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Classic confirmation bias, right there. It says what I think, so it must be right.
I think you're a dolt; and your posts confirm it. So, yeah.
  #65  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:41 AM
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Strange, I just looked up the top 10 causes of death in the US, I didn't see "Free Speech" there.

Maybe it's number 11?
  #66  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:46 AM
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Strange, I just looked up the top 10 causes of death in the US, I didn't see "Free Speech" there.

Maybe it's number 11?
I guess saying the wrong thing might cause a heart attack...
  #67  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:01 PM
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Septic, I know for a fact that you're a dolt, an idiot, a complete moron, just by your OP. And then you tried to back pedal, only further confirming the fact that you are among the clinically hard of thinking.
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  #68  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:08 PM
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The point is, you increasingly infuriating fucktard, is that this country as a whole is not being destroyed. That is the point you are purposely, cynically, twisting to win a pointless argument. The point does not concern individuals or groups of people, the point concerns this country as a whole. If you can't grasp that concept, then you're too fucking stupid, and cynical, to argue with.
So what you're getting so exercised about is the infinitesimally trivial point that some abstract or nominal notion of "the country" may continue to exist. That's hardly reassuring.
  #69  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:34 PM
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So the country is just a mere notion to you. That explains a lot.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:39 PM
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So many are scared of angry Christians, I'm not one of them but I live with plenty of them. They may grumble about liberals and the government, but they are not going to harm anyone or take any action without some really strong provocation (like life-threatening.)
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:43 PM
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So the country is just a mere notion to you. That explains a lot.
If some significant proportion of the people of the country are harmed, or oppressed, or suffering, or fear for their future, or if the actions taken in the name of the country are harmful, oppressive, or cause suffering, or if the ideals that I believe to be important are harmed, or oppressed, or discarded, it doesn't matter to me if "the country" continues to exist in name.

I care about the country in the sense that I care about its people and their well-being, and the well-being of all people who are affected by actions taken in the country's name and I care about the principles that the country supports and promotes. If all of that is in jeopardy, the mere notional or nominal continuing existence of a country with the same name is of no comfort to me.

And it should be to you as well. The concept of a country is only as good as how that concept actually is applied and acts in the world. The symbols, flags, anthems, or map drawings are trivial appurtenances.
  #72  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:48 PM
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So many are scared of angry Christians, I'm not one of them but I live with plenty of them. They may grumble about liberals and the government, but they are not going to harm anyone or take any action without some really strong provocation (like life-threatening.)
What kind of harmful action do you have in mind? Do they vote? Do they vote for people who cause harm? Do they vote for people who promise that their personal lifestyles and beliefs will be upheld as superior to their neighbors? Do they vote to restrict other people's rights? Do they support police who murder unarmed people? Do they support people like Joe Arpaio?

Christians as a group, specifically fundamentalist Christians, are the most dangerous faction in our country today, mostly because they have tremendous political power and fight to maintain the status quo or to engender some throwback notion of a good society.

That's the convenience of being the entrenched power in a society. They don't have to take affirmative action with their own hands to harm the rest of us. They just have to acquiesce to the harm that their proxies commit.
  #73  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:28 PM
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The symbols, flags, anthems, or map drawings are trivial appurtenances.
That's probably the only thing we'll agree on in this thread.
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  #74  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:34 PM
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I hope everyone interested in the thread topic reads that article. Definitely worth spending one of your five(?) N.Y. Times monthly views.
For clarification, I don't fully agree with the author of that op-ed because I suspect his notion of "making speech safe for society" means scrubbing views that he disagrees with while permitting offensive speech from his side, that he likes. But I posted it in this thread because it seemed very relevant to the discussion at hand.
  #75  
Old 10-10-2019, 10:14 PM
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The 2nd amendment guarantees the 1st. I suggest you don't mess with either.
I know he's not with us anymore, but I always have to question the logic of this quote. Guns don't prohibit Congress from passing legislation that limits speech.
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  #76  
Old 10-10-2019, 10:56 PM
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Strange, I just looked up the top 10 causes of death in the US, I didn't see "Free Speech" there.

Maybe it's number 11?
Maybe not free speech. But I've seen an angry mob petition a man to death.
  #77  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:31 PM
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This probably highlights THE problem in today's America.

We endeavor to wait until WE are back in power instead of working together to find solutions to problems that both sides can advocate for.

Divide and Conquer. Only with this mindset , it's let them have their fun until we get the reins back then we can have ours.

And the only people doing the conquering are those funding the political parties …
Get the money out of politics and most of the problems go away with it.
No. During the Obama administration, Obama and the Dems tried to work together and work "across the aisle".

They were met by McConnell and the "Party Of No".
  #78  
Old 10-11-2019, 04:01 PM
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So many are scared of angry Christians, I'm not one of them but I live with plenty of them. They may grumble about liberals and the government, but they are not going to harm anyone or take any action without some really strong provocation (like life-threatening.)
I can tell from this post that you're a straight, cisgender man, and thus haven't had people attempt to justify denying people like you their rights, because 'Christians'.

The obnoxious irony, of course, is that there is an almost 100% overlap between those who say that, and those who claim letting Muslims into Western countries will inevitably result in Sharia.
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:22 PM
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I can tell from this post that you're a straight, cisgender man, and thus haven't had people attempt to justify denying people like you their rights, because 'Christians'.

The obnoxious irony, of course, is that there is an almost 100% overlap between those who say that, and those who claim letting Muslims into Western countries will inevitably result in Sharia.
But Sharia is the epitome of conservative religious values. Not sure why people consider it a "liberal" ideal.
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:59 PM
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But Sharia is the epitome of conservative religious values. Not sure why people consider it a "liberal" ideal.
I agree with you, in the sense that nobody on the left would ever support Sharia.

I think the “logic” goes like this...

1) The left supports Muslims as an underrepresented minority in the country.

2) Some parts of the Muslim world live under Sharia law which can be brutal depending on how it’s applied.

3) Insist that Muslims in America are trying to sneak in Sharia (...how could that ever happen...?!) so that people on the left look complicit in some dark anti-American plot.

You again have to ignore that Sharia law would be against every value the left professes. An authoritarian religious institution that often oppresses women and homosexuals. Sounds like a left-wing utopia!
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:59 PM
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But Sharia is the epitome of conservative religious values. Not sure why people consider it a "liberal" ideal.
To some people, liberalism represents a giant collective mass of everything they hate or fear. So liberals are Muslims and Satanists and atheists (and maybe Jews and Catholics); liberals are Democrats and Socialists and Communists and Nazis; liberals are out-of-touch elitists in their ivory towers and cold-hearted bankers in their Wall Street offices and no account white trash and lazy minorities and illegal aliens who don't want to work and will steal your job; liberals are people who are always having abortions and breed like rabbits; liberals are fuzzy-minded pacifists who refuse to defend themselves and violent rioters who will attack you for looking at them - and they're all of these things at the same time.
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Old 10-12-2019, 04:52 AM
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Excellent post, Little Nemo. If anyone thinks he exaggerates, look at dome excerpts from the introduction to the Conservapedia page on Liberals. (I've included some items which show hilarious lack of self-awareness.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal
Liberals often support the censorship and denial of biblical Christianity ... Liberals prefer atheism/agnosticism over the Christian faith, as atheism has no objective morality to hinder their big government plans.

Increasingly, liberals side with the homosexual agenda, including homosexual "marriage". Liberals favor a welfare state where people receive endless entitlements without working. The liberal ideology has degenerated into economically unsound views and intolerant ideology. All liberals support, in knee-jerk fashion, the opposite of conservative principles, while lacking an actual ideology or values of their own. Many of them cannot understand Christian language. Liberals are especially prone to believe conspiracy theories ...

Liberals support the following political positions and practices:

Opposition to Natural Law, unalienable rights, and republicanism, and support for the War on Freedom
Wasting money on ineffective government programs ...
In the United States, the Democrat Party and liberals have moved so far left that [some] are sympathetic to Communism.
In 1988, the Communist Party USA (CPUSA) ... stopped running presidential candidates because the gap between Democrats and American communists had grown smaller.
Denial of science (especially creation science)
Hypocrisy
The belief ... that the main reason for Islamic extremists' hostility towards America is because of bad foreign policy
Brainwashing voters with propaganda
Hedonism
Taxpayer-funded and state-encouraged abortion
Rejection of Biblical standards
Naive acceptance of the Idea of Progress
Hatred of those they disagree with (see: Liberal hate speech)
Murder (through abortion, infanticide, assisted suicide, and euthanasia)
Unsuccessful Keynesian economics as opposed to sound free-market economics
Crying instead of accepting reality
Cessation of teacher-led prayer in classrooms and school/state-sponsored religious events.
Affirmative action
Support for obscenity, pornography and violence in video games
De facto authoritarian government
Authoritarian mindset
Government-funded medical care, such as Obamacare and "Medicare For All"
Fascist tendencies (see also: Homo-fascism)
Strong support for the Nanny State and big government policies
Belief in evolution
Destroying the Christian foundations on which America was built.
Destroying conservative family values and replacing them with immoral Hollywood values, such as abortion
Brainwashing through government-censored public education
Smearing
Libertine sexual morality (see: Evolutionary belief and sexual immorality and Liberal Christianity and marital infidelity)
Non-syndicalist labor unions
Many liberals engage in racism ...
Bigotry
Trump Derangement Syndrome
Encouraging promiscuity and immorality through sexual education rather than teaching abstinence from premarital sex
Government programs to rehabilitate criminals
Slander (see Liberal Smear Machine and Politics of personal destruction)
Third- and fourth-wave feminism, gender confusion, and anti-family policies
Anti-Americanism
Abolition of the death penalty
Reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine
Opposition to domestic wire-tapping as authorized in the Patriot Act
Encouragement of "global warming" alarmism
Rejection of logical standards
Some liberals support:

High tolerance of government corruption as long as it is done by other liberals
Bestiality as a human right
Robbery and other forms of crime (see Gun control)
  #83  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:08 AM
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conservapedia.com, yeah, no fucking bias there. Also, idiot, Nemo is ridiculing your way of thinking, but I wouldn't expect a fucktard like you to catch on to small unimportant phrases like "To some people". In this case, "some people" means even bigger idiots than you are. He is portraying idiots like you as people Archie Bunker would laugh at. But you're so stupid, you don't even realize you're being called stupid.
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Old 10-12-2019, 07:44 AM
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conservapedia.com, yeah, no fucking bias there. Also, idiot, Nemo is ridiculing your way of thinking, but I wouldn't expect a fucktard like you to catch on to small unimportant phrases like "To some people". In this case, "some people" means even bigger idiots than you are. He is portraying idiots like you as people Archie Bunker would laugh at. But you're so stupid, you don't even realize you're being called stupid.
I guess you think I'm a right-winger. This will come as a surprise to any Doper who has even the tiniest soupçon of a clue.
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Old 10-12-2019, 08:13 AM
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I don't care if you're right wing or left wing, all I know is, you're an idiot.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:11 PM
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How does it feel, being so fucking cynical all the time? The point is, we are still here, as a country, and we will be here for generations to come. We will not be destroyed by the assholes temporarily in power. And you missed the point about seeing history played out in a lifetime. We have seen it played out over countless lifetimes. We have seen the way history repeats itself, we have seen the way that we have overcome the worst the government has to offer, we have survived corrupt politicians and administrations, and we will continue to do so. No one but an absolute cynic would claim otherwise.
Yeah, bro, like the point is, we're, like, still molecular and shit.

All good.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:08 PM
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conservapedia.com, yeah, no fucking bias there. Also, idiot, Nemo is ridiculing your way of thinking, but I wouldn't expect a fucktard like you to catch on to small unimportant phrases like "To some people". In this case, "some people" means even bigger idiots than you are. He is portraying idiots like you as people Archie Bunker would laugh at. But you're so stupid, you don't even realize you're being called stupid.
Thanks, atimnie, but if I want to start a fight with somebody, I can do it myself.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:37 PM
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I agree with you, in the sense that nobody on the left would ever support Sharia.

I think the “logic” goes like this...

1) The left supports Muslims as an underrepresented minority in the country.

2) Some parts of the Muslim world live under Sharia law which can be brutal depending on how it’s applied.

3) Insist that Muslims in America are trying to sneak in Sharia (...how could that ever happen...?!) so that people on the left look complicit in some dark anti-American plot.

You again have to ignore that Sharia law would be against every value the left professes. An authoritarian religious institution that often oppresses women and homosexuals. Sounds like a left-wing utopia!
No, but (and I know where you're going with this) it sounds a hell of a lot like the Dominionist, Christian Reconstructionist, Religious "Right". The American Taliban.
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Old 10-13-2019, 03:53 PM
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No, but (and I know where you're going with this) it sounds a hell of a lot like the Dominionist, Christian Reconstructionist, Religious "Right". The American Taliban.
There are absolutely some extremist Christian groups in the US that have Taliban traits. I can’t disagree.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:04 AM
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'Progressive' democrats won't be what you hope they'll be if they ever seize power.
Nobody ever is.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:14 AM
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To some people, liberalism represents a giant collective mass of everything they hate or fear. So liberals are Muslims and Satanists and atheists (and maybe Jews and Catholics); liberals are Democrats and Socialists and Communists and Nazis; liberals are out-of-touch elitists in their ivory towers and cold-hearted bankers in their Wall Street offices and no account white trash and lazy minorities and illegal aliens who don't want to work and will steal your job; liberals are people who are always having abortions and breed like rabbits; liberals are fuzzy-minded pacifists who refuse to defend themselves and violent rioters who will attack you for looking at them - and they're all of these things at the same time.
So you say some people think that liberals are a coalition of a bunch of wacky types. Perhaps you should spend more time thinking than typing.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
So you say some people think that liberals are a coalition of a bunch of wacky types. Perhaps you should spend more time thinking than typing.
I'm good with my current thinking to typing ratio.
  #93  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
'Progressive' democrats won't be what you hope they'll be if they ever seize power.
I remember someone from the Obama WH once expressing annoyance about the continuing complaints from "the professional left". I'd expect even a President Bernie would have to face that.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:50 PM
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Excellent post, Little Nemo. If anyone thinks he exaggerates, look at dome excerpts from the introduction to the Conservapedia page on Liberals. (I've included some items which show hilarious lack of self-awareness.)
What stands out to me at looking at that list of so-called "liberal" things, is that whoever's writing them has an EXTREMELY narrow view of them- very much a "if you're not with us, you're against us" kind of viewpoint. Lots of examples where they're claiming that if you don't take a stand against X, then you're supporting/advocating/encouraging X.

Which we all know isn't true. For example, sex education is (or should be) relatively neutral- neither encouraging it nor passing moral judgments on it either, and sticking mainly to the plumbing, consequences and circumstances (no means no, etc...) And I would even say that a comment that the best way not to get pregnant, a STI, etc... is not to have sex, wouldn't be out of place in a reasonable sex ed program.

But the people writing those lists seem to have the idea that if you're not pushing abstinence super-hard, then you're encouraging premarital sex among teenagers. Which is not correct at all. It's merely not pushing a specific viewpoint, and not a very pragmatic one at that.
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Another idiot. A Myers-Briggs test asks "Are you an introvert?", phrasing that question five different ways. At the end it tells you whether you're an introvert or not!

One can make complaints about such a test, e.g.
(a) it just tells you what you already knew, or
(b) it can be manipulated (an extrovert might answer the questions pretending to be an introvert)

... but calling it "pseudo-scientific bullshit" shows a staggering level of ignorance and/or confusion. The claim that Jupiter in square with Venus shows introversion is pseudo-science. How, pray tell, is answering "Yes" to the question "Are you an introvert?" in the same category?
Psst, M-B dude, The Personality Brokers. Recommended for introverts, extroverts, or nontroverts.
  #96  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:50 PM
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Septimus, the first amendment is a totally different thing from the modern ideal of "freedom of speach'. The first amendment in that it prevents the government from political censorship is totally cool. The modern ideal that Twitter banning users is a 1st amendment thing is totally fucked.

Citations Needed is an excellent podcast and you should listen to their free speech episode. I think it's totally possible to be against free speech and still support the first amendment. They're not the same.

We pick and choose what's acceptable discussion all the time. We don't expect that a student should be able to hold up evolutionary biology 101 debating intelligent design until theyre convinced. The idea that we should be relitaging like racial hiercharchy because someone needs convincing is more political than just disallowing the conversation in the first place.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:53 PM
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I mostly agree. Again, the "1st Amendment" in thread title was a rhetorical flourish.

OTOH, "free speech" has been cited to allow unlimited PAC spending, and to allow vile hate speech. And especially: We really need some workaround — (repealing 1st_A ain't it) — against the freedom to Lie on Facebook which really has degraded American discourse, even encouraging foreign subversion.
  #98  
Old 10-16-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I mostly agree. Again, the "1st Amendment" in thread title was a rhetorical flourish.

OTOH, "free speech" has been cited to allow unlimited PAC spending, and to allow vile hate speech. And especially: We really need some workaround — (repealing 1st_A ain't it) — against the freedom to Lie on Facebook which really has degraded American discourse, even encouraging foreign subversion.
The "workaround" is to educate people so that they are inured against such memetic interference.
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:46 PM
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The "workaround" is to educate people so that they are inured against such memetic interference.
That’s 100% correct. Unfortunately, there is far too much hypocrisy with regards to support for rights in this country. It’s too easy to whine about free speech instead of teaching critical thinking skills.
  #100  
Old 10-16-2019, 03:46 PM
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Yeah, bro, like the point is, we're, like, still molecular and shit.

All good.
Speak for yourself. I'm quantum...and tubular.
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