View Poll Results: Who is your top choice in the primary field?
Joe Biden 22 21.78%
Bernie Sanders 14 13.86%
Liz Warren 28 27.72%
Pete Buttigieg 17 16.83%
Cory Booker 5 4.95%
Andrew Yang 7 6.93%
Amy Klobuchar 3 2.97%
Other 5 4.95%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:14 AM
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The idea is based off of the Canadian system, where it's illegal for private insurance to cover anything that the public system covers (so you can have insurance for prescription drugs and dental care, but not insurance that gets you an MRI sooner or in a nicer facility). It would also, as written, cover a lot more than the Canadian system does, so the scope for private insurance would be much smaller than even in Canada.
Ah, that’s good to know, thanks!
  #52  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:36 AM
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I'm not sure how to click, because Who would I like to see as Prez, and Who is best equipped to beat Donald Trump are separate questions. The latter is the more important criterion so I'm voting for Joe and hoping this 77-year-old stays healthy for another 11 months.

I am desperately worried that all the other candidates would be defeated next November by the Machine of Hatred and Lies. (If even Biden loses, it will be because the R's turn the impeachment proceedings into a 24/7 lie-fest about Biden corruption.)

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I guess it's because Sanders is the only one with actual proposals for change ...
Liz Warren also has a plan, or so I've heard.
  #53  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:56 PM
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As long as no one has to pay for it. That's what trips M4A up. Americans don't like paying for stuff.
Actual, real M4A could be paid for by a simple tax on corps that more or less equals what they pay out for employee health benefits now. No one taxes are increase. You pay a modest premium for parts B, C, D or your company can if they want to. Insurance companies will still sell plenty of insurance.

Sanders plan is a lunatics lie.
  #54  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:03 PM
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Ah, yes, that unpopular idea of a general entitlement for...everyone.
There's a huge difference between some sort of UHC or real medicare for all- and sanders crazy socialized medicine super expensive plan.
  #55  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:15 PM
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:43 PM
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There's a huge difference between some sort of UHC or real medicare for all- and sanders crazy socialized medicine super expensive plan.
I don't see that difference, nor do I see how such a difference prevents "some sort of UHC or real medicare for all" being passed after Bernie proposes a "crazy socialized medicine super expensive plan."

What is your problem with Bernie's proposal?

Last edited by foolsguinea; 12-08-2019 at 05:44 PM.
  #57  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:23 PM
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I would enthusiastically support Bloomberg if he were to make a surge and somehow win the nomination, and I really wish the progressives would stop the gratuitous billionaire bashing. Being rich shouldn't disqualify someone from the office; being a fraudulent and criminal billionaire, should. Bloomberg is authentic, and I think he's handled his legacy as mayor of NY better than Buttigieg has handled questions about his career.
At least we know what Bloomberg did as mayor of NYC. Be nice to know what Buttigieg did for McKinsey. (Motto: "Our proposals were too draconian even for ICE.")

Oh, did you know nobody ever asked Bloomberg about stop-and-frisk until he ran for President, and that's why he didn't apologize for it earlier? That's what he says, but that's complete and unadulterated bullshit.
  #58  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:42 PM
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Here's my rankings, but I'm gonna include two sets of candidates as groups.

A) The Flakes: Yang, Gabbard, Williamson.
B) The Just-Go-Away gang: Steyer, Delaney, Patrick. (Bennet should be part of this group too, but I'll give him extra points for being a U.S. Senator, which IMHO is worth something in terms of understanding how this country is run.)

1) Warren
2) Castro (who won't win the nomination, but should get more respect than he's getting)
3) Sanders
4-6) Biden, Klobuchar, Booker
7) Bennet
8) Bloomberg
9-11) The Just-Go-Away gang
12) Buttigieg
13-15) The Flakes

I haven't really read up on Klobuchar or Booker enough to say whether they'd be better or worse than Biden, so I lumped them together.

I went back and forth about whether to rank Sanders above Biden & Co. I have serious concerns about whether Sanders would be up to the job: the job he really wants is Leader of the Revolution, and that's a very different job from President. But I have similar concerns about Biden, just for very different reasons. So I figured better to go with an actual liberal.

In a rare moment of agreement with foolsguinea, I too would rather have Inslee or Gillibrand back than most of these mopes.
  #59  
Old 12-08-2019, 07:00 PM
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The Democratic party will go the time proven strategy of discussing the issues, and then nominating the most senior member of the party, who is next in line, because it is owed to them.

Next up is Joe Biden. Hillary version 2.0. They will ignore the youth and new ideas and nominate the rich, old, white guy. And call it progress. Heads will be scratched in 2020 about what the hell just happened.
  #60  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Here's my rankings, but I'm gonna include two sets of candidates as groups.

A) The Flakes: Yang, Gabbard, Williamson.
B) The Just-Go-Away gang: Steyer, Delaney, Patrick. (Bennet should be part of this group too, but I'll give him extra points for being a U.S. Senator, which IMHO is worth something in terms of understanding how this country is run.)

1) Warren
2) Castro (who won't win the nomination, but should get more respect than he's getting)
3) Sanders
4-6) Biden, Klobuchar, Booker
7) Bennet
8) Bloomberg
9-11) The Just-Go-Away gang
12) Buttigieg
13-15) The Flakes

I haven't really read up on Klobuchar or Booker enough to say whether they'd be better or worse than Biden, so I lumped them together.

I went back and forth about whether to rank Sanders above Biden & Co. I have serious concerns about whether Sanders would be up to the job: the job he really wants is Leader of the Revolution, and that's a very different job from President. But I have similar concerns about Biden, just for very different reasons. So I figured better to go with an actual liberal.

In a rare moment of agreement with foolsguinea, I too would rather have Inslee or Gillibrand back than most of these mopes.
I really miss Inslee and think it's just a sad, sad commentary that this guy was so well-qualified and who possessed such a firm grasp of real issues - and hardly got any attention at all. And no offense to Yang or anyone else, but it's just a frightening commentary on American democracy when someone like him can poll better than someone like Inslee by talking about what, in real terms, is magical unicorn bullshit. I like Yang as a social thinker, but as a political candidate...GMAF break.
  #61  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:16 PM
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The difference between Warren and Sanders - and it's a significant one, IMO - is that Warren may suffer from episodes of mania, but when confronted by political realities, I think she's the sort of person who can be reasoned with and she won't fall on her own sword. Bernie should change his name to Burnie - because he imagines being able to burn the system down.
  #62  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Actual, real M4A could be paid for by a simple tax on corps that more or less equals what they pay out for employee health benefits now. No one taxes are increase. You pay a modest premium for parts B, C, D or your company can if they want to. Insurance companies will still sell plenty of insurance.

Sanders plan is a lunatics lie.
Well, you can fund a UHC system on any amount of money, you just limit coverage to only what the system can afford. Raising the money only from existing sources of funding probably wouldn't be sufficient because you still have to get the people currently uninsured covered. Totally new funding has to be there to bring those people in.
  #63  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:00 PM
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Well, you can fund a UHC system on any amount of money, you just limit coverage to only what the system can afford. Raising the money only from existing sources of funding probably wouldn't be sufficient because you still have to get the people currently uninsured covered. Totally new funding has to be there to bring those people in.
Only 9% of America is uninsured and a good % of them are homeless (who we all pay for through via their ER and Paramedic calls). And some qualify for medicaid or medi-Cal but dont know how to get on it or cant fill out the paperwork.

I think the 91% of us can carry that 9%, especially as we already pay for them anyway, as explained above. The uninsured visits to County ER or a paramedic call are costing us more than just covering them.

And it doesnt have to be totally new funding as experts have said that just that tax will cover us all, since there's economy of scale, etc.

So we could have REAL M4A pretty easy. Mind you Medicare isnt fabulous- you do have a modest premium for part B, and Medicare supplemental is a nice profit maker for insurance companies- but that's Ok, i dont want to totally put them out of business.
  #64  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:01 PM
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I really miss Inslee and think it's just a sad, sad commentary that this guy was so well-qualified and who possessed such a firm grasp of real issues - and hardly got any attention at all. And no offense to Yang or anyone else, but it's just a frightening commentary on American democracy when someone like him can poll better than someone like Inslee by talking about what, in real terms, is magical unicorn bullshit. I like Yang as a social thinker, but as a political candidate...GMAF break.
Inslee would have made an outstanding President. Bennet, Bullock, and Hickenlooper too. But at least in this field there was no shortage of qualified people. It's just hard to beat a VP with that.
  #65  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:01 PM
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The Democratic party will go the time proven strategy of discussing the issues, and then nominating the most senior member of the party, who is next in line, because it is owed to them.
...
The Democratic party doesnt nominate anyone. The voters do.

That "we wuz robbed" meme of the bernie-bros is bullshit. The voters spoke.
  #66  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
I don't see that difference, nor do I see how such a difference prevents "some sort of UHC or real medicare for all" being passed after Bernie proposes a "crazy socialized medicine super expensive plan."

What is your problem with Bernie's proposal?
Bernies plan is super expensive and outlaws private insurance plans. No one has to pay any premiums, not even the modest ones Medicare Part B collects.

Read Sanders plan, or better yet a experts take down of it.


https://www.vox.com/2019/4/10/183044...dicare-for-all
"The plan is significantly more generous than the single-payer plans run by America’s peer countries...The plan is significantly more generous than the single-payer plans run by America’s peer countries...The big question Sanders doesn’t answer: How do you pay for it?..Financing the health care system that Sanders envisions is an immense challenge. About half of the countries that attempt to build single-payer systems fail....This is what happened when Sanders’s home state of Vermont attempted to create a single-payer plan in 2014. Much like Sanders, local legislators outlined a clear vision of the type of health plan they’d want to extend to all Vermonters. Their plan was arguably less ambitious; it did require patients to pay money when they went to the doctor.

But Vermont’s single-payer dream fell apart when the state figured out how much it would need to raise taxes to finance its new system. Vermont abandoned the government-run plan after finding it would need to increase payroll taxes by 11.5 percent and income tax by 9 percent.
"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot.../#34b76fd45502

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ized-medicine/
  #67  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:37 AM
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I'm actually a Green. So I don't get to vote in Democratic primaries.

Of the Dem candidates, I like Liz Warren best overall. There are none of them that I would avoid voting for against the Republican, they'd all be massive improvements.

I'm in New York and can most likely afford to vote for the Green Party candidate without any risk of the NY vote trending in a Republican direction.

Be far better if we had ranked-choice voting in the Presidential contest. I could vote Green as my 1st choice and Democratic as my 2nd and not feel like my vote was tilting at windmills, nor would my Democratic friends harass me for doing the Ralph Nader spoiler thing and helping the Republicans.
  #68  
Old 12-09-2019, 08:01 AM
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Seems a bit disrespectful to show Warren's first name as "Liz" but at least it wasn't "Pocahontas".

I voted Biden. This election is absolutely essential for the fate of democracy. We cannot lose. We go with the guy who has the best chance of winning, and that's Biden. Can we elect a gay man or a woman in the general election? I don't know. But this is too important to find out that we can't.

There is a lot of hang-wringing about having no minorities in the top tier and wailing about Harris' departure. If enough people wanted her to be president they would have donated money and kept her campaign alive. They didn't. Except for the shot at Biden at the debate (about an issue that they don't disagree on), she has shown nothing. If she had given us a reason to support her, we might have.
  #69  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:59 AM
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We should not feel obliged to embrace a candidate who is one or more minority categories, but if we specifically avoid one for being in such a category ("can we elect one of those?") we don't stand for shit.
  #70  
Old 12-09-2019, 12:12 PM
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The problem with these sorts of polls is that there are different answers depending on what the real question is. When asked which of the candidates I prefer, do you want to know:

1) Whose policies and personality appeal most to me?
2) Who do I think stand the best chance of winning the election against Trump?
3) Who do I think would do the best actual job as president?

For me the answers are:

1) Buttigieg (although I agree that his time has not yet come - 2028 might be more reasonable)
2) Probably Biden
3) Warren

Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
Warren takes the lead! Booooo, SDMB!
Oh, I'm sorry - did you actually want our opinions or did you just want to heckle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
As long as no one has to pay for it. That's what trips M4A up. Americans don't like paying for stuff.
Americans will willingly pay twice as much for something in order to keep anyone else from getting it for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
(Bennet should be part of this group too, but I'll give him extra points for being a U.S. Senator, which IMHO is worth something in terms of understanding how this country is run.)
I give Bennett credit for his long anti-Cruz speech on the Congress floor; his heart and priorities are in the right place. But he's been an utter non-entity this campaign season and that's not going to change.
  #71  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:24 AM
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Bennett was extremely well qualified but Biden's sucking up all the moderate old white guy energy in the race.
  #72  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:26 AM
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I really miss Inslee and think it's just a sad, sad commentary that this guy was so well-qualified and who possessed such a firm grasp of real issues - and hardly got any attention at all.
IMHO, it was simply a function of the huge number of candidates. When people are given way more options than they can rationally sort through, they just kinda shut down. It's true whether they're considering candidates or health insurance plans.
Quote:
And no offense to Yang or anyone else, but it's just a frightening commentary on American democracy when someone like him can poll better than someone like Inslee by talking about what, in real terms, is magical unicorn bullshit. I like Yang as a social thinker, but as a political candidate...GMAF break.
The thing about an oddball candidate like Yang is that he stands out just because he's different, so if there's some small fraction of the population that likes what he's selling, they'll say they're supporting him. But he's only polling at ~3%, and his support appears to be either holding steady or shrinking. It's not like he's really a participant in the race for the nomination.

Someone asked elsewhere why Kamala Harris had to drop out, but all these nonentities are still in the game. And the answer is simple: she was running to win, and when it was clear that that wasn't happening, she had the sense not to prolong her candidacy any further. These other mooks are just running to run, or running for name recognition, or whatever.

Harris, in order to try to win, had had to staff up a full-fledged campaign, and the money wasn't coming in to keep it going. (Same thing was probably true of Inslee.) But it doesn't cost much just to run if you aren't running a real campaign.
  #73  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:36 AM
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Bennett was extremely well qualified but Biden's sucking up all the moderate old white guy energy in the race.
Enough of the "old" there - Bennet (apparently spelled with only one T) is only 55, a whole generation younger than Biden. A positive spring chicken compared to most of the frontrunners (and Trump).
  #74  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:40 AM
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True, but if you're not under 50 you're not really considered a young exciting candidate. So call it "boring white guy" energy. Biden has all of it. Sanders has his niche so he's viable as well, and Buttigieg is the exciting white guy. But all those voters who would have supported Bullock, Hickenlooper, Bennett, Bloomberg, and Inslee? I'm pretty sure those are all Biden voters.
  #75  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:59 AM
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Seems a bit disrespectful to show Warren's first name as "Liz" but at least it wasn't "Pocahontas"....
Ouch. I've been calling her 'Liz.' For some reason I thought that was her nickname, just as Biden is 'Joe.' I was trying to be affectionate.

Googling just now, it appears that
* She was 'Liz' up until about age 30 when she made a conscious decision to change to 'Elizabeth.'
* 'Liz Warren' appears frequently in headlines, perhaps to save space.
* Other usages of 'Liz' often come from disparaging opinions.

Sorry. I will make an effort to call her only 'Elizabeth' in future.
  #76  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:49 AM
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I wonder when Joseph Biden simply became Joe Biden. Go look at his old footage and it was always Senator Joseph Biden.
  #77  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:05 PM
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https://poll.qu.edu/national/release...ReleaseID=3651

Democratic primary voters under 35.
Quinnipiac poll:

Sanders 52%
Warren 17%
Biden 11%
Yang 7%
Gabbard 3%
Buttigieg 2%
Bloomberg 2%
Everyone else 1% or less
  #78  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:44 PM
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Since the top three candidates will all be dead by the time voters under 35 matter, that means Andrew Yang will be the first President millenials elect in 2040 or so.
  #79  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Here's my rankings, but I'm gonna include two sets of candidates as groups.

A) The Flakes: Yang, Gabbard, Williamson.
B) The Just-Go-Away gang: Steyer, Delaney, Patrick. (Bennet should be part of this group too, but I'll give him extra points for being a U.S. Senator, which IMHO is worth something in terms of understanding how this country is run.)

1) Warren
2) Castro (who won't win the nomination, but should get more respect than he's getting)
3) Sanders
4-6) Biden, Klobuchar, Booker
7) Bennet
8) Bloomberg
9-11) The Just-Go-Away gang
12) Buttigieg
13-15) The Flakes

I haven't really read up on Klobuchar or Booker enough to say whether they'd be better or worse than Biden, so I lumped them together.

I went back and forth about whether to rank Sanders above Biden & Co. I have serious concerns about whether Sanders would be up to the job: the job he really wants is Leader of the Revolution, and that's a very different job from President. But I have similar concerns about Biden, just for very different reasons. So I figured better to go with an actual liberal.

In a rare moment of agreement with foolsguinea, I too would rather have Inslee or Gillibrand back than most of these mopes.
It's disturbing yet reassuring how much I agree with your analysis.

Speaking as a Bernie voter, I do worry about those who think that he as President will be able to get so much done. No, comrades, if you want to get it done, get a Brand New Congress candidate on the primary ballot in your district.
  #80  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:10 AM
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Bernies plan is super expensive and outlaws private insurance plans. No one has to pay any premiums, not even the modest ones Medicare Part B collects.
Meh. Medicaid beneficiaries don't pay premiums, because they can't afford them. This is not impossible.
  #81  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:22 AM
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“Too soon to tell,” but I voted for Mayor Pete.

The central thing we have seen in Regan and Trump is that a person can be too old to be President. With that in mind, the field gets much smaller.
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  #82  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:28 PM
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For comparison, the current RCP polling averages, rounded to the nearest whole number:

Biden 28
Sanders 18
Warren 15
Buttigieg 9
Bloomberg 5
Yang 3
Booker 2
Klobuchar 2

So Warren and Buttigieg are doing a bit better in our poll but overall it's not as far off as I would have guessed. Still, it appears that college-educated white people are overrepresented on the SDMB. Shocker.
  #83  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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I was for Harris. Warren is my fallback position.
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