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Old 07-02-2018, 10:19 PM
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Another one (potentially) bites the dust--Justin Trudeau sexual allegations

Have any of our Canadian members heard this yet?

Quote:
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday denied allegations that he “groped” a young reporter at a music festival almost two decades ago.

He was responding to recently-unearthed accusations, made 18 years ago. He said he did not remember anything like that happening at the time.

The allegations were first published in a local paper, the Creston Valley Advance, in an unsigned editorial in 2000.
http://time.com/5328843/canadian-pri...ping-reporter/
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:52 PM
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The idea that the Prime Minister of Canada could "bite the dust" because of an unproven allegation of groping from 20 years ago, is nothing but a spiteful anti-Canadian fantasy.
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:59 AM
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Wow. Twenty years ago. What was he? 15?? Please.
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:16 AM
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Wow. Twenty years ago. What was he? 15?? Please.
27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:24 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Are we talking about the guy with the fake eyebrows?
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:55 AM
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An unsigned editorial? From 20 yrs ago?

You must be joking, right?
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:31 AM
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He should be burnt at the stake! If the flames don't harm him, it's proof that he's a molesterist and then he can be beheaded, if the flames killed him, at least he died doing what he loved best...burning in agony.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:50 AM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
Can you explain Trump then?
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:28 AM
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Unless someone comes forward, the female reporter in this case does not want to be named or discuss it, this can't go anywhere. I'll point out that the publisher of the community paper believes the reporter but is quoted in the CBC article on it as saying "I would not classify it or qualify it as sexual assault." so I'm not really sure what actually happened.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:59 AM
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"I don’t remember any negative interactions that day at all" is an odd phrase and open to multiple interpretations.
(Unlike "I didn't do it.", which is pretty clear.)

It happened, but he doesn't remember it?
It happened but it wasn't a negative interaction. (The boob-grabber and the grabee just might have different views on that.)
It didn't happen. The author of the editorial is a lier.

None of those interpretations reflect well on Trudeau.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:18 PM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
Nope.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:20 PM
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Have any of our Canadian members heard this yet?





http://time.com/5328843/canadian-pri...ping-reporter/


18 years ago??
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:36 PM
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I read quite a bit on it - the issue here is that the PM himself took a very hardline approach to other politicos that were accused. It remains to be seen what comes of this, if anything.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:37 PM
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I don't think you can just brush it off just because it's an old accusation. However, the accusation is very undetailed and the accuser doesn't seem to want to pursue it in any way so unless a bunch of other people come forward, I'm comfortable not giving the story much headspace.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:40 PM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
By current standards, that's not true at all. You hadn't heard of the Steve Paikin case?
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:44 PM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
Vice-President Pence wishes this were true but, alas, you're dealing in fantasies.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:40 PM
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Can you explain Trump then?
The normal rules don't apply to him. I am not certain that the laws of physics do.
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:32 PM
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The idea that the Prime Minister of Canada could "bite the dust" because of an unproven allegation of groping from 20 years ago, is nothing but a spiteful anti-Canadian fantasy.
Lol.
Canada is too bland to stir up feelings of hatred.


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Originally Posted by Eonwe View Post
Nope.
Apparently some people on this board have never heard of Garrison Keillor, who was fired because of a single accusation.

There are other examples here.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...weinstein.html

And here is fallout from a single, 16-year-old accusation.
Quote:
On December 19, 2017, an unnamed woman accused Silicon Valley actor T.J. Miller of sexually assaulting and punching her while both attended George Washington University in 2001. Later that day, Comedy Central cancelled Miller's The Gorburger Show after one season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinstein_effect
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:52 PM
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Lol.
Canada is too bland to stir up feelings of hatred.
Bullshit. On both points. Canada isn't bland, and there's currently more anti-Canadian sentiment in America than there has been for centuries - spurred on by Trump and his supporters.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:29 PM
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Bullshit. On both points. Canada isn't bland, and there's currently more anti-Canadian sentiment in America than there has been for centuries - spurred on by Trump and his supporters.
Speaking of which, I find it ... interesting ... that this accusation is being dredged out of the memory hole just when Trudeau is fighting back in Trump's trade war.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:27 PM
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And here is fallout from a single, 16-year-old accusation...
Context matters. The accusations against Miller were at least somewhat corroborated; these are not. The accusations against Miller actually involved a disciplinary hearing, albeit sealed; these have never been brought publicly. And they came on the heels of a documented criminal assault charge; these do not.

As with Keillor, his employer decided to cut him loose because of a pattern of behavior they felt was unsuitable.

Are you presenting an argument that the citizens of Canada should do the same here? Because you'll need to bring more than this.
.

Last edited by andros; 07-03-2018 at 10:28 PM.
  #22  
Old 07-04-2018, 02:51 PM
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Lol.
Canada is too bland to stir up feelings of hatred
Try me, Republican.
  #23  
Old 07-04-2018, 07:32 PM
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Speaking of which, I find it ... interesting ... that this accusation is being dredged out of the memory hole just when Trudeau is fighting back in Trump's trade war.
Very interesting indeed. If this anecdote from 20 year old past article was being brought up by Canadian rivals why didn't they try to make it a headline during the election, or wait until the next one?
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:28 PM
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No wonder for their civil service the Byzantines perferred eunuchs.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:12 AM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
So your saying captain eyebrows is trouble?

A while back there was a governmental scandal with the left in Canadian politics which lead to the conservatives winning.

I'm just somewhat too familiar with Canadian politics. They have a minority type of government parliamentary type of system. Their four major parties are:

Liberal = Tredeau ( perhaps a Me too ) type of politician.
Conservative - Harper
New Democrat - Not sure how they differ from Liberal
Quebec Bloc - Party who fuels separation from Canada. Used to be a spoiler.

I will say Canadian leftists seem to have less tolerance for bad behavior of their own, compared to American Leftists.
  #26  
Old 07-05-2018, 11:13 AM
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The normal rules don't apply to him. I am not certain that the laws of physics do.
Good thing he never studied law!
  #27  
Old 07-05-2018, 12:34 PM
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Liberal = Tredeau ( perhaps a Me too ) type of politician.
Conservative - Harper
New Democrat - Not sure how they differ from Liberal..
the Liberal Party is, by Canadian standards, centrist. The NDP is very left wing and openly a democratic socialist party.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:58 PM
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Apparently some people on this board have never heard of Garrison Keillor, who was fired because of a single accusation.

Garrison Keillor: radio station reveals broader claims of sexual harassment
Minnesota Public Radio says Keillor, 75, was accused of dozens of sexually inappropriate incidents over several years


The whole thing about him being fired over just one incident? That was 100% Keillor's spin on his firing. And he was lying.

Quote:
There are other examples here.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...weinstein.html
That's a list of 71 names, with scant details about the accusations against them, or the evidence that supported their firing. Maybe pick a few that you think demonstrate unfair treatment, and explain why?

Quote:
And here is fallout from a single, 16-year-old accusation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinstein_effect
Again, what on that page are you referring to? There's over 200 descriptions of people being fired for sexual assault or harassment on that Wiki page. Which one is the "single, 16-year-old accusation," that you want to discuss?
  #29  
Old 07-09-2018, 01:57 PM
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The formerly anonymous reporter has spoken out. We now know it was Rose Knight, a former reporter for the Creston Valley Advance, the publication that carried the original editorial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPR
She said she does not represent a "movement, whether political or otherwise" and that her participation ends here.

"I did not pursue the incident at the time and will not be pursuing the incident further."
So does this change things much? Does this give the story legs, or increase its importance? Does this give us leave to assume the worst about his behavior at that event 18 years ago?

Some salient points from NPR's reporting:

The editorial accused Trudeau of groping and inappropriate handling of the woman reporter. I haven't seen any statement by Ms Knight about what actually happened.

Ms Knight says she had avoided issuing a statement out of privacy concerns, for herself and her family.

Trudeau says he apologized "in the moment" because he "perceived that she had experienced it in a different way than I acted or I experienced it." In that apology he reportedly described his behavior as "forward," although he has not confirmed using that expression.

My conclusion is that we can't come to a definite conclusion about what happened. The current attention seems at least as unwelcome to Ms Knight as it probably is to Trudeau, which may mean that she has now been a victim twice. If this truly was something dug up by 45's minions to discredit Trudeau, they have a lot to answer for.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:27 PM
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So a 27 yo pats a woman on the rump. Big effing deal. My wife absolutely agrees.
  #31  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:53 PM
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Speaking of which, I find it ... interesting ... that this accusation is being dredged out of the memory hole just when Trudeau is fighting back in Trump's trade war.
He is the Prime Minister. Every moment this could have been dragged out would be an interesting moment.

The evidence suggests this will be a passing embarrassment. Trudeau has not handled it super well but the public doesn't want his head.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:46 AM
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the Liberal Party is, by Canadian standards, centrist. The NDP is very left wing and openly a democratic socialist party.


Well, except in the last election, when Tom whassisname tacked the NDP to the centre, heady with dreams of power, and Good-Hair-Boy tacked farther left and actually won power.

Personally, I think that was just a quirk of the 2015 election. The NDP dumped Tom and has been going back leftwards.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:59 AM
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Another one (potentially) bites the dust--Justin Trudeau sexual allegations

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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
A while back there was a governmental scandal with the left in Canadian politics which lead to the conservatives winning.
The generic term "the left" doesn't really work in Canada, given the multiplicity of our parties. I think you're referring to the sponsorship scandal, which brought down the Liberal government of PM Martin. As RickJay says, the Liberals are traditionally a centrist party, tacking now leftwards, now rightwards, according to their read of the mood of the Canadian public.

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I'm just somewhat too familiar with Canadian politics. They have a minority type of government parliamentary type of system.
No, we have a parliamentary system which normally results in majority governments, like the British system and unlike the continental European parliamentary systems. PM Trudeau has a majority government, as did his immediate predecessor, PM Harper, from 2011 to 2015.

Quote:
Their four major parties are:



Liberal = Tredeau ( perhaps a Me too ) type of politician.

Conservative - Harper

New Democrat - Not sure how they differ from Liberal

Quebec Bloc - Party who fuels separation from Canada. Used to be a spoiler.

There's also the Green Party, which has one member in the Commons, and the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF), which also has one MP, due to a "Me too" moment involving an NDP MP who was kicked out of caucus.

As well, the Bloc québécois went through a schism earlier this year. The Bloc now has five MPs in the Commons, and Québec débout, composed of Bloquistes who left, also has five MPs.

Plus two independent MPs.

Oh, and Harper is no longer the Conservative leader. He resigned after being defeated in the 2015 Élection. The current Conservative leader is a guy named Andrew Scheer from Saskatchewan.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-11-2018 at 11:02 AM.
  #34  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:01 AM
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He is the Prime Minister. Every moment this could have been dragged out would be an interesting moment.

The evidence suggests this will be a passing embarrassment. Trudeau has not handled it super well but the public doesn't want his head.
He is young popular and very good looking. Half the population is hoping that he smacks their rump.

You think if he looked like David Spade he’d get such understanding?
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:06 AM
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The evidence suggests this will be a passing embarrassment. Trudeau has not handled it super well but the public doesn't want his head.
That's my take on it as well.

I would just add that Trudeau is not very good at handling personal attacks on him. The incident in the Commons, the Aga Khan holiday, this one; he responds with a whiny "why are you picking on me?" tone.

He lacks his dad's ability to say "Yeah, I did it. So fuddle-duddle."
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:08 AM
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That's my take on it as well.

I would just add that Trudeau is not very good at handling personal attacks on him. The incident in the Commons, the Aga Khan holiday, this one; he responds with a whiny "why are you picking on me?" tone.

He lacks his dad's ability to say "Yeah, I did it. So fuddle-duddle."
How is he compared to Dad?
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:44 AM
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Another one (potentially) bites the dust--Justin Trudeau sexual allegations

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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
How is he compared to Dad?

In terms of personality, Trudeau père was an arrogant prick, but with two fundamental principles he worked for throughout his career:

1. Federalism works and Canada is worth fighting for;

2. Patriate the Constitution and entrench fundamental rights.

Trudeau fils doesn't appear to have the prickishness bit; can be arrogant, but whiny arrogant, which is less appealing than Trudeau père's variant. Fils always gives me the impression he wants to be liked; père would just shrug his shoulders and not care if you hated him.

Justin's key principles seem to be different from his dad's, probably reflecting the different times. His classic statement was when he was asked why his Cabinet was 50% women, and he said "Because it's 2015." That played very well with any female-type person I chatted to.

He's also very committed to a form of liberalism that seems in retreat in a lot of western countries. The Economist did an article on him entitled "The Last Liberal?" Emphasises openness to immigrants, for example. When Canada took in a large contingent of Syrian refugees, he was at the Toronto Airport, welcoming them and handing out parkas (it was the middle of winter). When Trump implemented his entry-ban, Trudeau tweeted right away that Canada believed in welcoming immigrants.

If you'd asked me half a year ago, I would have said that I wasn't sure if he had the spine that père had. My take on that changed after the G7 and tariff issue. I would say he's got the spine, but he displays it in a more temperate way than père, which is probably a good way to go at the moment.

(When Trudeau père heard that Nixon had called him an asshole, his reaction was to shrug and say "I've been called worse things by better people," which was a cutting comment on Nixon's unimaginative vocabulary and moral failings, all in one epigram. But, didn't contribute to good relations with the White House.)

Oh, and Justin's a pot-head.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-11-2018 at 11:46 AM.
  #38  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:39 PM
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When Justin was sworn-in, there was some comment about the different imagery between him and his dad, comparing what they looked like as they walked up the drive of Rideau Hall to meet the Gov-Gen.

"Trudeau's swearing-in was so badass in 1968"

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/1...n_8465128.html

Compared to this one in 2015:

https://publications.mcgill.ca/repor...ed-to-cabinet/

Last edited by Bone; 07-11-2018 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Updated huffpost link
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:26 PM
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Hmmm - that HuffPost link is now giving a warning - don’t know why.

Try this instead:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/1...n_8465128.html
  #40  
Old 07-11-2018, 06:58 PM
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Hmmm - that HuffPost link is now giving a warning - don’t know why.

Try this instead:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/1...n_8465128.html
I fixed it in the previous post.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:03 PM
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Thanks. Don't know why it did that.
  #42  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:03 PM
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27. And if current standard are applied he is out. An allegation is as good as a conviction.
Cite? Every time I am aware of fallout for the #metoo situation, there has always been additional evidence, not merely an accusation.

I have seen this alleged before, but have seen no proof. Even if it is an exaggeration, it is one that many people seem to actually believe. Hence I think it should be backed up.

Last edited by BigT; 07-11-2018 at 10:04 PM.
  #43  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:38 PM
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From what have heard, Trudeau's 'offense' was that he put his arm around the woman while they were all partying, she pushed him away, and he apologized.

The fact that this is even news is crazy. If that's all there was to it, Trudeau was basically just being a bit of a tool, but he wasn't doing anything that should sink a Prime Minister 20 years later, or even anything that wasn't extremely common in the 90's when young men and women mixed at parties and concerts - especially with alcohol and/or pot involved.

He's still a lousy Prime Minister doing about as well as you would expect from someone whose previous life experience consists of being a substitute teacher and snowboard instructor before becoming a professional jet-setter and gadfly trading on his dad's money and reputation, but this accusation seems like nonsense.
  #44  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:29 PM
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From what have heard, Trudeau's 'offense' was that he put his arm around the woman while they were all partying, she pushed him away, and he apologized.
How reliable was the source from whom you heard this? None of the news stories I have read would go beyond the original charges of "groping and inappropriate handling." I can't imagine any stretch by which putting his arm around her would be called groping (well, I can imagine if he really stretched and got his hand past her shoulder, but then that wouldn't be referred to as "putting his arm around her"). I can't imagine any stretch by which, if she accurately reported that to her editor, it would have resulted in an editorial about a non-important non-political figure 18 years ago referring to the incident in those terms.

This is a fairly serious forum here in Elections, please clarify what you heard and whence you heard it.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:31 PM
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To be fair, it's scarcely even an accusation. The woman in question wrote a brief editorial expressing unhappiness with Trudeau's behaviour, without elaborating on what exactly he did. That's doesn't really rise to the level of being an accusation.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:40 AM
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He's still a lousy Prime Minister doing about as well as you would expect from someone whose previous life experience consists of being a substitute teacher and snowboard instructor before becoming a professional jet-setter and gadfly trading on his dad's money and reputation, but this accusation seems like nonsense.
That sounds like an absolute dream compared to what we are dealing with a bit to the south.
  #47  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:59 AM
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How reliable was the source from whom you heard this? None of the news stories I have read would go beyond the original charges of "groping and inappropriate handling." I can't imagine any stretch by which putting his arm around her would be called groping (well, I can imagine if he really stretched and got his hand past her shoulder, but then that wouldn't be referred to as "putting his arm around her"). I can't imagine any stretch by which, if she accurately reported that to her editor, it would have resulted in an editorial about a non-important non-political figure 18 years ago referring to the incident in those terms.

This is a fairly serious forum here in Elections, please clarify what you heard and whence you heard it.
As I posted above, the woman who was the publisher of the original editorial said "I would not classify it or qualify it as sexual assault." so arm around the shoulder is one of the few things that fit that statement and "groping".
  #48  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:16 AM
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Cite? Every time I am aware of fallout for the #metoo situation, there has always been additional evidence, not merely an accusation.

I have seen this alleged before, but have seen no proof. Even if it is an exaggeration, it is one that many people seem to actually believe. Hence I think it should be backed up.
Trudeau ejected MPs Scott Andrews and Massimo Pacetti from his caucus based solely on allegations.
Allegations that both men, unlike Trudeau, have specifically denied.
He did not wait for the results of an investigation.
  #49  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:29 AM
Grey Grey is online now
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From CBC news
Quote:
Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau made the decision to permanently expel Newfoundland and Labrador MP Scott Andrews and Montreal MP Massimo Pacetti after getting the results of an independent investigation he ordered into complaints levelled against them.

Toronto lawyer Cynthia Petersen, a human rights specialist who has investigated sexual harassment complaints in the private sector, gave Trudeau her report on Pacetti and Andrews last week.

Peterson was hired by the party in December after a failed attempt by Trudeau to win all-party support for creating an independent process to investigate the complaints.
Time for your cite I guess.

Last edited by Grey; 07-12-2018 at 11:30 AM.
  #50  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:55 AM
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LionelHutz405 LionelHutz405 is offline
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It depends on if you think the suspension was punishment. He didn't expel them until receiving the results of the investigation but did suspend them before that.

I think a suspension is a punishment and shouldn't be doled out on the basis of an accusation only, but if he wants to only suspend himself for now until his investigation completes I'm OK with that.
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