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  #51  
Old 06-26-2018, 04:39 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.
And my point is that, apart from being practically impossible, that doesn't even sound like a good idea.
  #52  
Old 06-26-2018, 05:56 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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The world cannot be improved in any way at all. It is an Absolute singularity, and everything is already contained within it for eternity. But this is not something that can be explained, and it certainly sits outside of Spiral Dynamics so I don't even talk about it.
You know, for someone who doesn't talk about it, and doesn't think anything matters at all, he sure talks about it a lot - I mean, 365 videos on his channel, in each of which he witters on for a duration of anything from 20 minutes to more than an hour.

If what he was saying was correct, what would be the point of making all those videos, running the actualized forum, etc? None of it can change anything, because the universe is a singularity, right?
  #53  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:59 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Sometimes I doubt his commitment to Sparkle MotionSpiral Dynamics
  #54  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.
But trying to find peace is passing judgement on reality - shouldn't you accept and live in the now, peaceful or not?
  #55  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:42 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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I mean no disrespect to the actual, real religious beliefs of which the bullshit nonsense in this thread is a grotesque parody, but: 'peace', as advertised here, is no more attractive an end goal than a frontal lobotomy.
It is possible to judge some things without feeling the need to judge all things, and it is possible to live an acceptably peaceful life without going to the extreme of nullifying every desire.

Machinaforce - if you're so determined to be spoonfed someone else's ideas on how life should be lived, then:
  1. Listen to what I am saying now
  2. Reject any advice that tells you to occupy an extreme
  3. Go find some people talking about 'balance' in a philosophical context
  #56  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:28 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
I mean no disrespect to the actual, real religious beliefs of which the bullshit nonsense in this thread is a grotesque parody, but: 'peace', as advertised here, is no more attractive an end goal than a frontal lobotomy.
It is possible to judge some things without feeling the need to judge all things, and it is possible to live an acceptably peaceful life without going to the extreme of nullifying every desire.

Machinaforce - if you're so determined to be spoonfed someone else's ideas on how life should be lived, then:
  1. Listen to what I am saying now
  2. Reject any advice that tells you to occupy an extreme
  3. Go find some people talking about 'balance' in a philosophical context
But I want a way to refute or negate what he says. I don't know or understand philosophy enough to do it myself and I am worried about confirmation bias or that by rejecting him I choose to live in an illusion.
  #57  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:38 PM
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But I want a way to refute or negate what he says.
Based on your previous threads it doesn't seem like you do. You just want people to tell you it's OK to not care. You have my permission.
  #58  
Old 06-29-2018, 03:44 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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But I want a way to refute or negate what he says. I don't know or understand philosophy enough to do it myself and I am worried about confirmation bias or that by rejecting him I choose to live in an illusion.
He says all action is pointless. Listening to anything he says is an action. The instructiion 'drop all judgment' requires an action. If he's right, he's also automatically wrong.

Last edited by Mangetout; 06-29-2018 at 03:45 PM.
  #59  
Old 07-01-2018, 04:42 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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The claim is that one continues to do things for shits and giggles but to be honest I sincerely doubt that. Maybe in a tv show you can have a character say that but humans in reality I don’t think so.

But still, as much as I want to dismiss him I hear things about how people have changed their lives by listening to him. If someone was so wrong or mistaken then people wouldn’t listen or follow right?
  #60  
Old 07-01-2018, 04:53 PM
beowulff beowulff is online now
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The claim is that one continues to do things for shits and giggles but to be honest I sincerely doubt that. Maybe in a tv show you can have a character say that but humans in reality I don’t think so.

But still, as much as I want to dismiss him I hear things about how people have changed their lives by listening to him. If someone was so wrong or mistaken then people wouldn’t listen or follow right?
Umm, no.

There’s nobody that is so reprehensible or just absolutely, completely wrong that they don’t have followers. Just look at certain politicians, or this guy.
  #61  
Old 07-01-2018, 05:17 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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The claim is that one continues to do things for shits and giggles but to be honest I sincerely doubt that. Maybe in a tv show you can have a character say that but humans in reality I don’t think so.

Uh, okay. But regardless of whether you think “humans in reality” would do that, the guy we’re talking about is actually saying that stuff — and then he is actually still continuing to do things anyway, right?

It’s not like we (a) just watched an episode of a TV show that ended with this or that character reaching said conclusion, such that we (b) are eagerly discussing what that character will do in the next episode; the human in question, here in reality, said his piece and then just kept on doing things, didn’t he?
  #62  
Old 07-02-2018, 12:38 AM
Half Man Half Wit Half Man Half Wit is offline
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I like how the percentages add up to something way over 100, because obviously that petty math-stuff is just for the uninitiated.

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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.
And every time somebody tells you they have achieved such a state, what they really tell you is that they've invented a convenient narrative to judge themselves to be above all the other, unenlightened people. You can buy into this, of course: that way, you too get to be in possession of 'absolute truth' and get to justify some sense of superiority even if in the eyes of everybody else, you just don't amount to much (for they who have not seen the light only see dimly, or somesuch).
  #63  
Old 07-02-2018, 02:22 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The claim is that one continues to do things for shits and giggles but to be honest I sincerely doubt that. Maybe in a tv show you can have a character say that but humans in reality I don’t think so.
Sure, like the breatharians (who claim to survive on air and sunlight) continue eating food (usually in secret) 'just for the flavour'. Rii-iight.

Quote:
But still, as much as I want to dismiss him I hear things about how people have changed their lives by listening to him. If someone was so wrong or mistaken then people wouldn’t listen or follow right?
People followed Charles Manson.

Last edited by Mangetout; 07-02-2018 at 02:24 AM.
  #64  
Old 07-02-2018, 03:50 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Also, if anyone truly and completely followed what he said, and it truly and completely worked, I don't see any way they could possibly express the opinion that it had changed their lives (I mean, that point of view would require the application of judgment)
  #65  
Old 07-02-2018, 01:18 PM
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Well, as this is the only possible world, it follows therefore that it must be the best of all possible worlds.
I hope I’m not the only one who started singing “The Best of All Possible Worlds” when I read the OP.
  #66  
Old 07-02-2018, 01:20 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Also, if anyone truly and completely followed what he said, and it truly and completely worked, I don't see any way they could possibly express the opinion that it had changed their lives (I mean, that point of view would require the application of judgment)
I’m talking about replies like this: Thanks man..! I followed you since last two years, paid off..!! Initially when I started to watch your episodes I was a teenager. I am now in early adulthood. I invested abnormal time watching your videos.on Sundays literally I kept homework on hold and only work I did was just eat and watch your videos. I knew you are talking about something important but I can’t grasp it totally. In your one of the video(postmodernism I guess) you talked that the goal of actualized.org is the make you float while everyone is sinking in sand,I am floating now. Till now I watch your video because I was “helplessly dependent on them”.even there was no one around me who had same interest as me and able to answer the question satisfactorily. Ultimately I ended up with questioning absolutely everything and disbelief and loss of trust.I have shades of yellow and rest of green.I had hard time making friends.it was one way flow that okay I am in bunch of people they call me as friend but I don’t authentically feel them as friend.man..you have done great job..I am Indian ..and we have a ritual so to speak that whenever a man gets his first salary …we keep that in front of “god”..we have a place in home called “devara” in Marathi (I am Maharashtrian)a small “thing”(I can’t describes it in english,see photo on google)where different idols of different deities are kept and worshipped, so we keep the salary in front of them in devara.it is holiest place in house and it is believed that brings good fortune by doing so…I can’t pay you money now because I am student currently .but I will pay you the first salary as a respect for what value you have provided till now….I would have hugged you if you were front of me..actually this comment is replay for green memes video but I just could’t hold the feelings in…love you…carry on great job..!!

Doesn’t that mean there is some merit? Or would that be wrong?
  #67  
Old 07-02-2018, 04:57 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Hard to say, but that honestly reads, to me, like the ramblings of someone who is mentally unhinged.
  #68  
Old 07-04-2018, 09:35 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Perhaps you have a point.
  #69  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:57 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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https://www.scienceandnonduality.com...ting-the-self/ https://www.scienceandnonduality.com...the-big-story/

I know I probably should not be looking into this stuff but it’s been gnawing at me in the same sense that my first encounter with Buddhism continues to. It’s about stories particularly narratives. I know I heard something about it in eastern philosophy about how the self is really just a story we tell ourselves and that we are fundamentally empty. I have heard a few neuroscientists mention it as well. Sam Harris said soemthing around similar lines about how the self is an illusion and that there really isn’t a core you. Looking at life it does seem like it’s easy to see that to be the case. Ask people who they are and they list x y or Z, but then the author tends to cite soemthing about how this is just a story that we tell ourselves and that the stories we are born into (which I am guessing would be culture) narrow and limit us. Then there is some bit about consciousness that I don’t really get. But there is some gem there that I learned in sociology. That what we are born into defines how we see the world and that according to her one must unplug to “directly experience” reality. That it’s just an illusion. Personally I wonder if according to her she isn’t just spinning another narrative or story. Does wiping the slate clean so to speak really get at the fundamental of “who” (or in some cases she’s says “what” ) we are? Or is that just something we believe to be the case? I’m always a bit wary when people use the phrase “direct experience” (which I’m guessing is reality without our filters and judgements and fixings) because to me it just sounds like an assumption. That one assumes direct experience and yet I am reminded of the phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know”. Why are people so obsessed with being unlimited? I know this started one way but it ended up another, and I tried to summarize the links but I might have misssd a few bits here and there. I want to know others input on this. I am aware of the site name but perhaps we can gloss over it (asking a lot I know) and just address the words. I thinking other people here might have something to say. Personally I cannot put my finger on it but something seems off about it
  #70  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:23 AM
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I heard something about it in eastern philosophy about how the self is really just a story we tell ourselves and that we are fundamentally empty.
Who is telling the story?

Regards,
Shodan
  #71  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:45 AM
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https://www.scienceandnonduality.com...ting-the-self/ https://www.scienceandnonduality.com...the-big-story/

I know I probably should not be looking into this stuff but it’s been gnawing at me in the same sense that my first encounter with Buddhism continues to. It’s about stories particularly narratives. I know I heard something about it in eastern philosophy about how the self is really just a story we tell ourselves and that we are fundamentally empty. I have heard a few neuroscientists mention it as well. Sam Harris said soemthing around similar lines about how the self is an illusion and that there really isn’t a core you. Looking at life it does seem like it’s easy to see that to be the case. Ask people who they are and they list x y or Z, but then the author tends to cite soemthing about how this is just a story that we tell ourselves and that the stories we are born into (which I am guessing would be culture) narrow and limit us. Then there is some bit about consciousness that I don’t really get. But there is some gem there that I learned in sociology. That what we are born into defines how we see the world and that according to her one must unplug to “directly experience” reality. That it’s just an illusion. Personally I wonder if according to her she isn’t just spinning another narrative or story. Does wiping the slate clean so to speak really get at the fundamental of “who” (or in some cases she’s says “what” ) we are? Or is that just something we believe to be the case? I’m always a bit wary when people use the phrase “direct experience” (which I’m guessing is reality without our filters and judgements and fixings) because to me it just sounds like an assumption. That one assumes direct experience and yet I am reminded of the phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know”. Why are people so obsessed with being unlimited? I know this started one way but it ended up another, and I tried to summarize the links but I might have misssd a few bits here and there. I want to know others input on this. I am aware of the site name but perhaps we can gloss over it (asking a lot I know) and just address the words. I thinking other people here might have something to say. Personally I cannot put my finger on it but something seems off about it

You are having fun thinking about things which cannot be solved nor experienced via thinking. This is very common. I have two suggestions:

1. Start a regular and rigorous meditation practice, preferably with a group. Suggest Tibetan, Zen, or Vipasana Buddhism.

2. Learn to use paragraphs.
  #72  
Old 07-11-2018, 05:28 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Who is telling the story?

Regards,
Shodan
That's the part I get stuck on. They like to reference oneness alot and it is said that alot of the differences that exist between us are just in our heads.

Then there is a lot about relativity and that how we know the world is through relationships. Something is considered big relative to something else, or that the distinctions between the "parts" of our body are relative to other parts. The claim is that by dropping that story and "relativity" you see reality for what it is. I'm not 100% about that, but even saying science is relative gets me down.

Now I don't really know how to make sense of the world. Considering how she mentions the stories we tell about us are limiting and life denying.
  #73  
Old 07-11-2018, 05:30 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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You are having fun thinking about things which cannot be solved nor experienced via thinking. This is very common. I have two suggestions:

1. Start a regular and rigorous meditation practice, preferably with a group. Suggest Tibetan, Zen, or Vipasana Buddhism.

2. Learn to use paragraphs.
I'm not sure that this cannot be solved by thinking. As someone who has read a fair bit of science I doubt the accuracy of personal experience or if such experience really yields anything. As far as I know I am basically taking these people on their word. What I can say is that a certain set of beliefs, reasoning, and actions do yield such an experience. Whether that is truth is debatable. Sadly I don't know nearly enough to know if she is right or not. I got a bit confused reading the links.
  #74  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:43 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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As someone who has read a fair bit of science
Oh, sweet Hastur - OK, define "a fair bit". Which journals do you read regularly?
  #75  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:13 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Oh, sweet Hastur - OK, define "a fair bit". Which journals do you read regularly?
Mostly just the principles such as that which requires evidence for claims and such.

Which why I have skepticism about claims such as the following (which is made in the link):

“. Language ensures the content. Institutional grand narratives contain rationale, logic and presupposed truths about the nature of reality. They use different linguistic tools to influence the effect their big stories will have on the many people they are told to. And the peddling of truth in grand narratives is achieved through something called ‘nominalization,’ the act of turning verbs into nouns, of making connected processes into fixed objects. The grand narrative of health nominalizes the suffering of people as ‘symptoms,’ rendering processes and the movement of energies as immovable things. It crystallizes the movement of thought (in psychiatry), of emotion (in psychology) of the body (in general health) into concrete, separate forms that are acting upon a passive recipient. This grand narrative soaks into our personal stories, holding us hostage by feeding our innate sense of vulnerability. And other external objects, such as medication, are to pull us further away from the hidden knowledge which lies beyond our personal stories and activates our self-healing mechanisms.”

It sounds plausible to me but the again I have blind spots and historically have been very gullible
  #76  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:47 PM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Mostly just the principles such as that which requires evidence for claims and such.
That's philosophy of science, not science.

I can't even begin to make head or tail of the rest of your post, other than: someone needs to learn what nominalization actually means.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-12-2018 at 02:48 PM.
  #77  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:57 PM
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Which why I have skepticism about claims such as the following (which is made in the link):
Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
  #78  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:46 PM
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‘...and such.’, never fails to amuse.

Sure sign of a solid position, staggering intellect etc.
  #79  
Old 07-12-2018, 07:02 PM
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I'm not sure that this cannot be solved by thinking. As someone who has read a fair bit of science I doubt the accuracy of personal experience or if such experience really yields anything. As far as I know I am basically taking these people on their word. What I can say is that a certain set of beliefs, reasoning, and actions do yield such an experience. Whether that is truth is debatable. Sadly I don't know nearly enough to know if she is right or not. I got a bit confused reading the links.
Well, okay, knock yourself out.
  #80  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:09 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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That's philosophy of science, not science.

I can't even begin to make head or tail of the rest of your post, other than: someone needs to learn what nominalization actually means.
I am guessing the writer of the links does know considering they have a PHD in linguistics. Like I said, I tried to summarize the links
  #81  
Old 07-12-2018, 09:40 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Well, okay, knock yourself out.
Well I say that because even those supposed "without thinking" bits involve at least some level of thought.
  #82  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:00 AM
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I am guessing the writer of the links does know considering they have a PHD in linguistics.
That's not evidenced by their usage. "Symptom" was always a noun, it can't be nominalized.
  #83  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:50 PM
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That's not evidenced by their usage. "Symptom" was always a noun, it can't be nominalized.
I'm not sure I follow. But her bits about health and medicine are questionable at best.
  #84  
Old 07-14-2018, 07:30 AM
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I'm not sure I follow.
Does this help?
  #85  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:00 PM
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The thing is I read that page but I don't get what it means.
  #86  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:28 PM
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It means using verbs as nouns.

Take "swimming".

"I am going swimming."

In that sentence "swimming" is being used as a noun even though it is a verb, "going" is the verb in that sentence.


You made me say "verb". Such a brev word.
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  #87  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:31 AM
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A question as brief and apparently 'simple' as this one, is a perfect illustration of why there is so much misunderstanding between human beings. Because before anyone can even begin to think about 'how' to answer it ... they must first clarify what the questioner means by the word 'perfect.'

For instance, I can quite honestly say that "I think the world is perfect", because by using that word, I mean that "The world 'could not be other than it is right now', at this very moment." Therefore, it is 'perfect.' Similarly, there has never been any possibility of 'anything' being other than exactly how it is, right now. And this I believe is true for every moment that has ever been.

But of course, this then opens up a whole Pandora's Box of related questions about time, free will, pre-destination, choices, etc.

However, most people aren't interested in engaging in such a seemingly impossible and uninteresting enquiry and are far happier remaining within the limits of what feels right to us. I imagine the most popular approach towards answering a question which uses the word 'perfect' the way you have here, would be to assume the question meant something like "If every single thing in the world happened the way 'I liked' - then the world would be perfect."

Nevertheless, I strongly suspect that if the world operated exactly the way you or I found 'perfect', it would NOT be seen as such by any other person we could find.

The moral ? "Define your terms first. Answer second."
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  #88  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:41 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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It means using verbs as nouns.

Take "swimming".

"I am going swimming."

In that sentence "swimming" is being used as a noun even though it is a verb, "going" is the verb in that sentence.


You made me say "verb". Such a brev word.
But i dont know how that relates to the links.

Like does the "narrative" that we tell ourselves blind us to the truth? Or is that narrative based on data.
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