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  #51  
Old 03-04-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
The problem with these All-Superstar baseball teams is that if you sent them back to 1927 they'd still have a tough time beating the '27 Yankees.*
Um.... no.

Now, if you organized this game in 24 hours with the 27Y's at the peak of their powers and the superstars coming off binges, suffering hangovers, in a one-game exhibition, the 27Y's can beat the superstars. But if both teams are playing as teams, in a 7-game series, then the 27Y's have zero chance against the supes, and would lose, at best, 4-1.

The modern players are just better. Better training, more knowledge, ability to view film, historical knowledge of the 27 Yankees, better approach to health and eating, more muscular, faster, a far greater knowledge of anatomy, and all the general advantages being born in, say, 1984 has over being born in 1902.
  #52  
Old 03-04-2019, 02:12 PM
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The problem with these All-Superstar baseball teams is that if you sent them back to 1927 they'd still have a tough time beating the '27 Yankees.*

And it's hard to understand why Bob Gibson was left off the pitching staffs. That's the guy I'd want in a tough spot.
He's on mine.
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  #53  
Old 03-05-2019, 05:25 AM
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The LH column is from a fairly well credentialled judge.
The key of his selection was Sobers whose all round capabilities allwed him to select only four specialist batsmen and leave whoever they play to work out how to score a defendable total against a 100% cream six man bowling unit.

My selection, of those I have seen play is in the RH and plagarises that theme with the key being Kallis. I'm a curmudgeon who favours the old guys but IMHO even Braddles's 11 would struggle to consistently score 300 against my bowlers.

1. Barry Richards [South Africa] . . . (Kane Wiliams [New Zealand])
2. Arthur Morris [Australia] . . . (Viv Richards [West Indies])
3. Don Bradman [Australia] . . . (Ricky Ponting [Australia])
4. Sachin Tendulkar [India] . . . (Virat Kohli [India])
5. Garry Sobers [West Indies] . . . (Jaques Kallis [South Africa])
6. Don Tallon [Australia] . . . (Adam Gilchrist [Australia])
7. Ray Lindwall [Australia] . . . (Wasim Akram [Pakistan])
8. Dennis Lillee [Australia] . . . (Shane Warne [Australia])
9. Alec Bedser [England] . . . (Joel Garner [West Indies])
10. Bill O'Reilly [Australia] . . . (Michael Holding [West Indies])
11. Clarrie Grimmett [Australia] . . . (Dennis Lillee [Australia])

Last edited by penultima thule; 03-05-2019 at 05:29 AM.
  #54  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
The modern players are just better. Better training, more knowledge, ability to view film, historical knowledge of the 27 Yankees, better approach to health and eating, more muscular, faster, a far greater knowledge of anatomy, and all the general advantages being born in, say, 1984 has over being born in 1902.
This is a matter of personal preference, but I am inclined to suggest we ignore timeline, at least within a reasonable definition of the span of a given professional league.

To use a different sport, there is no doubt, none whatsoever, that the NHL players of, say, Bobby Orr's day were on average physically inferior to today's NHL players. It's plainly obvious. Gordie Howe was a big, terrifyingly physical player in his prime; today he'd be average sized at best. The NHL players of 2018 are faster, stronger, and blessed with coaching techniques, scientific analysis, nutrition, and sports medicine advantages that players of the past could not even dream of.

But if you don't grade on the curve, you end up picking ALL players on every team from the last twenty or thirty years. What matters is not how Babe Ruth would do if he stepped out of a time machine and was asked to immediately get into the box against Justin Verlander; what really matters is how he did against Lefty Grove. I have no serious doubt that if a 25-year-old Ruth was transported to today and was given time to adjust, pick some lighter bats and take some batting practice, he'd be the best hitter in baseball; he was a ridiculously great ballplayer.

Of course, you have to draw the line somewhere. I'd grant this to Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb of Josh Gibson, but when you start getting into how Old Hoss Radbourn did for the Providence Grays in 1881 I am not really sure that's Major League Baseball anymore.

That said, even giving the 1927 Yankees one hundred percent grading-on-the-curve credit, of course they'd be crushed by our superteams. The superteams are putting Mike Schmidt up against Joe Dugan, Alex Rodriguez against Mark Koenig, and Randy Johnson against Herb Pennock. The 27Y pitching staff would be a dumpster fire by Game 3 of that series. It's an overwhelming mismatch. I mean, the NHL superteam is going to annihilate the 1976 Canadiens. The NBA superteam will print twenty posters a game against the Jordan Bulls.
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Last edited by RickJay; 03-05-2019 at 08:29 AM.
  #55  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
NFL football:


Coach = Bill Belichick
QB = Tom Brady
RB = Barry Sanders
WR = Randy Moss, Jerry Rice
TE = Jason Witten
Offensive linemen = Larry Allen, Orlando Pace, Anthony Munoz, Walter Jones, Jim Otto

Defensive linemen = Reggie White, Michael Strahan, Bruce Smith, Warren Sapp
LB = Lawrence Taylor, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis
CB = Deion Sanders, Richard Sherman, Darrelle Revis
Safeties = Ed Reed, Darren Woodson
Sir, this lineup features ten men on offense and twelve men on defense.

I hate to pick nits, but that's kind of an important one.

ETA: Also, I'm a little surprised that no one has included Jim Parker on offensive line. It was another era, but footage of him playing is astonishing.

IMHO. I am not an NFL sachem.
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  #56  
Old 03-26-2019, 10:25 AM
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I don't know much about football, but...Maradona as a second-stringer? And no Beckham?

I am in no position to debate; just wondering about your reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
I think Zidane and Maldini would fit into a full team of superstars better than Maradona, but if most people want him in the first team instead of either of those two, I wouldn't argue much.

Beckam probably doesn't make the 10th string, I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. He was never the best player on his team, excepting his time in MLS, let alone one of the best players of his generation. Plus, his skill set doesn't fit a 4-3-3.
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Originally Posted by Quercus View Post
Beckham is the Joe Namath of soccer: way, way, more famous than his actual playing ability. [Not to say either was horrible, but neither were all-time greats].
Thank you both for educating me. What I know about footy could fit in a thimble. All the "greatest soccer player of the twentieth century" discussions I've seen usually boil down to Pelť vs Maradona. It's good to see some diversity.

Bumping this since I love these kinds of threads.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:46 PM
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So everyone's favorite "should really have worn #69" NFL Tight End is retiring. And I was thinking, if this is schoolyard style alternate picking players kind of thing, then there's an argument that for football, the first choice should be Gronkowski. Yes, a QB is more important than even the best TE ever, but there are a lot of great QBs, and probably not that much effective difference between P Manning and A Rodgers (or whomever your #1 and #2 are). Whereas Gronk created defensive problems that no other TE really did (basically, with him you can run a 6-lineman power run scheme or have a passing game with an obligatory double-team receiver, with the exact same offensive personnel. Here's a pro making the argument: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/3...ght-end-legacy). So you're better off with Gronk and your #2 pick QB than your #1 pick QB and your #2 TE. (We're assuming longevity isn't an issue.)

I also wonder if the same argument applies to Lawrence Taylor, and anyone else?


And now that I think about it, it's a great addition to the all-basketball teams. If you're alternating picks, who do you take first? Are Shaq and Kareem close enough that you don't mind which one you get and grab LeBron first? Or gamble that 2020 Giannis won't be much of a drop-off from LeBron and take Jordan first? Also, at what point do you grab Popovich?
  #58  
Old 03-30-2019, 08:06 PM
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Wow. I like to think that I "specialize" in N.F.L. all-time greats (I possess an "old-school" N.F.L. simulation with which I can pit all-time greats for each N.F.L. franchise up against one another in a virtual team setting) but this is tough. I plan to post my N.F.L. All-Time team(s) in a bit.
  #59  
Old 03-31-2019, 10:16 PM
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World XV (Rugby Union)

This may be slightly biased towards players that I have seen:

1. Jason Leonard (Eng) (Os du Randt (RSA))

2. Sean Fitzpatrick (NZ) (Keith Wood (Ire))

3. Adam Jones (Wal) (Owen Franks (NZ))

4. John Eales (Aus) (Brodie Retallick (NZ))

5. Sam Whitelock (NZ) (Martin Johnson (Eng))

6. Francois Pienaar (RSA) (George Smith (Aus))

7. Michael Jones (NZ) (Richie McCaw (NZ))

8. Zinzan Brooke (NZ) (Buck Shelford (NZ)).

9. Gareth Edwards (Wal) (Joost van der Westhuizen (RSA))

10. Dan Carter (NZ) (Jonny Wilkinson (Eng))

11. Jonah Lomu (NZ) (Bryan Habana (RSA)).

12. Tim Horan (Aus) (Phillipe Sella (Fra))

13. Brian O'Driscoll (Ire) (Tana Umaga (NZ))

14. David Campese (Aus) (Joe Rokococo (NZ))

15. JPR Williams (Wal) (Serge Blanco (Fra))
  #60  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:04 AM
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  #61  
Old 04-26-2019, 04:55 PM
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Because I like to muse on this stuff (first string only I'm afraid):


QB Joe Montana
RB Barry Sanders
FB Marion Motley
WR Jerry Rice
WR Don Hutson
TE Rob Gronkowski
C Kevin Mawae
OG Jim Parker
OG John Hannah
OT Anthony Munoz
OT Forrest Gregg

DE Deacon Jones
DE Reggie White
DT Joe Greene
DT Warren Sapp
MLB Dick Butkus
OLB Lawrence Taylor
LB Junior Seau
CB Charles Woodson
CB Rod Woodson
SS Troy Polamalu
FS Ronnie Lott

P Ray Guy
K Adam Vinatieri

Coach Vince Lombardi


Some of these were harder than others. In choosing a quarterback, I'm afraid that I more or less went with the choice that I hated less than the alternatives. There is no denying the success that Tom Brady has had with the Patriots over the last 18 seasons, but geez, I hate that guy. Ditto Elway. I was a Favre fan for a while, but it was always something with that guy, too. I flirted with the idea of Johnny Unitas, but it's tough to translate the quarterback position from his era to everything that has happened since. Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, and Dan Marino were powerhouses at the position, but they don't have the championship success that I would like to see in a dream team quarterback. So I went with Montana, which probably wouldn't get much argument. Not the most athletic guy in the world, but he did everything he needed to do. Another day, I might go with Peyton Manning or Roger Staubach. Hard to say; so many greats at the position. Crazy how the ultimate team game seems to hinge on one player so often.

Beyond that, the slot I agonized over the most was fullback. Jim Brown is the obvious choice, but the guy hated to pass block. How can a dream team have a fullback who hates to pass block? I could move him to running back as Fred Zimmerman did on one of his dream teams, but I cannot leave Barry Sanders off this squad. (Walter Payton makes that choice a little tough, too, but Sweetness always annoyed me just a bit as well. Itís hard to explain. Regardless, itís difficult to argue that Sanders was not the best RB who ever played.) My heart said to go with Bronko Nagurski at fullback, but the more I looked at Motley, the more convinced I was. I had no idea that his average yards per carry were more than Brownís, for example, and Motley DID love to block. He basically had Nagurskiís skill set, but he was better. Itís tough leaving Brown off, but there you have it.

The rest werenít too tough. I realize that the receiver position has radically changed since Hutsonís day, but he was so far ahead of the game for so long that I cannot leave him off in good conscience. I cannot overstate what an overwhelming athlete Jim Parker was, especially for his time. Munoz was far and away the best lineman of the era I watched the most, and Forrest Gregg is my tribute to the Packer dynasty (and obviously a hell of a player). Center has never been a glamour position, but Mawae was arguably better longer than anyone of the last 30 years; good as Mike Webster was, I donít think he did what Mawae did with the position. I donít think I need to say much about Hannah, Gronk, and Rice.

I saw a sabermetric-type analysis a while back that claimed Butkus and Ray Guy werenít really even elite players. However, if you think Iím going to war without Butkus, youíre nuts. Iím more malleable about Ray Guy. A lot of people slot Sammy Baugh as a tip of the hat, and Iíd love to drop Jim Thorpe in here on a lark (and he WAS a hell of a kicker), but Guy revolutionized the position, and picking someone else seemsÖweird. If you want to go with Shane Lechler or somebody, I canít really argue with that.

Iím not a Reggie White fan at all, but he towers over everyone of his era. If anything, Deacon Jones was even more dominant. Greene is a little less dominant, but, like Butkus, Iím not going to war without that guy. Iím a bit more ambivalent on Sapp (my enduring image of the guy is still him rolling onto his back after a pancake in the Orange Bowl Ė go Huskers!), but he did more things well than any other athlete of his size, and I didnít quite feel right about bumping him for Alan Page (though I was tempted). LT, like Guy, changed the linebacker role forever; I donít think any defensive player ever had so much impact on so many games. Seau is a personal favorite, but that said, has any linebacker been so good for so long Ė and had that level of skill the whole time? Not much to say about the Woodsons, but I cannot think of anyone better. The same goes for Ronnie Lott; I wouldnít say he defined his position like Taylor, but he sure exemplified it. Polamalu is more of a personal choice, too. I loved watching him play, and Iíd sure rather have him on my side than against me. I could think of no rational argument against Vinatieri (other than some legends about Jim Thorpe), so there you are. Iím not sure I can make a rational argument against Bill Belichik with his amazing record of success in the sportís most competitive era. Letís just say that I hate him with the fire of a thousand suns, so Iíll take Lombardi, whose utter turnaround of the Packers was one of the amazing sports stories. I have a little trepidation about this Ė modern players probably wouldnít respond to his methods Ė but Iíll still go with him.
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