Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1051  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:32 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,810
Banked a critical win in our league last night - should be enough for safety but it is now out of our hands, although our competitors for the drop would need to blow out a far stronger side to overtake us. Pard and I got the job done - 48 imps from four vuln swings from bidding and making 3 thin games, plus one filthy third seat multi I rolled out to push the opps into a no-play 5D when 3N was cold.

This aggressive approach cost us once, to which I invite your scorn and derision - holding something like S Qx H QJT9xxx D xxx C J first seat fav vuln, I decided I didn't like 3H there so put it into the multi 2D. Overcall 3C on your left and then pard goes 3D. 3S from RHO. I misapprehended pard's bid here, and thought it was strong and interested in game, so rolled out a fatuous 4H call. Promptly doubled (by RHO) to go 3 off as pard is empty of hearts, and lucky to escape with that - LHO was void in diamonds, so it could have been completely stretchered if they had found the diamond switch.
I think 3D has to be to play, no interest in the majors, and I can only bid over it with a strong hand. In the event a quiet 3H opener would have elicited 3S from RHO to buy the contract, and prob doesn't even make.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 03-22-2019 at 07:33 AM.
  #1052  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:16 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Banked a critical win in our league last night
Well done!
  #1053  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:22 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Banked a critical win in our league last night - should be enough for safety
Congratulations.
Quote:
This aggressive approach cost us once, to which I invite your scorn and derision - holding something like S Qx H QJT9xxx D xxx C J first seat fav vuln, I decided I didn't like 3H there so put it into the multi 2D. Overcall 3C on your left and then pard goes 3D. 3S from RHO. I misapprehended pard's bid here, and thought it was strong and interested in game, so rolled out a fatuous 4H call. Promptly doubled (by RHO) to go 3 off as pard is empty of hearts, and lucky to escape with that - LHO was void in diamonds, so it could have been completely stretchered if they had found the diamond switch.
I think 3D has to be to play, no interest in the majors, and I can only bid over it with a strong hand. In the event a quiet 3H opener would have elicited 3S from RHO to buy the contract, and prob doesn't even make.
I would open 3H, but on the actual auction it is normal to play that a new suit by preemptor's partner is forcing in a noncompetitive auction but non-forcing in a competitive one. However, it is dangerous for partner to bid 3D with no hearts because if you have diamond shortage, you are likely to bid 3H.
  #1054  
Old 04-04-2019, 10:24 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,014
The dealing machine has been at it again. Yesterday my partner held void QJ986 AK1086543 void. Game all. Partner opened 1S (of course) and RHO bid... 2D! She passed and it came back to me and I doubled. Partner passed this (of course) and her LHO rescued with... 2H! Before she could get a chance to apply the axe to this, RHO bid 2NT, doubled and all passed.

Opponents have a 5-0 diamond "fit", getting a 8-0 break; a 4-4 spade fit, getting a 5-0 break, and a 5-3 club fit, getting a 5-0 break. They only went 2 down in 2NT as whenever anyone got on lead they were endplayed.

The 2D overcaller had KJ54 K QJ972 AK8. I think I would overcall 1NT with that.
  #1055  
Old 04-04-2019, 12:42 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
The 2D overcaller had KJ54 K QJ972 AK8. I think I would overcall 1NT with that.
With a singleton King of Hearts? 2D seems fine to me. I'm confused as to the bidding sequence. How did it 'come back to you'? Once LHO bids 2H a contract of 2N seems entirely reasonable though over 2N I might convert to 3S as partner obviously has 3+ spades and a double stop for her bid and I'm seeing plenty of ruffing value from my diamond void.
  #1056  
Old 04-04-2019, 01:45 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 310
I'm have trouble parsing this as well - am I right that the "Partner" who opened 1S was your partner's partner (i.e. you) and the bidding went:
1S - 2D - P(!) - P
Dbl - P - P - 2H
P - 2NT - Dbl - All P ?

I wouldn't overcall 1NT on KJ54 K QJ972 AK8 with 1S on my right and two players yet to speak. If the singleton K was Clubs, then maybe, but as it stands there's way too much chance of winding up in 3H or 4H on a 5-1 fit.
  #1057  
Old 04-04-2019, 04:28 PM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrick View Post
I'm have trouble parsing this as well - am I right that the "Partner" who opened 1S was your partner's partner (i.e. you) and the bidding went:
1S - 2D - P(!) - P
Dbl - P - P - 2H
P - 2NT - Dbl - All P ?
Correct. Sorry it was confusing.

Quote:
I wouldn't overcall 1NT on KJ54 K QJ972 AK8 with 1S on my right and two players yet to speak. If the singleton K was Clubs, then maybe, but as it stands there's way too much chance of winding up in 3H or 4H on a 5-1 fit.
Partner does not expect any more than two hearts, so is unlikely to be bidding higher with only five of them. And stiff king is better than two small anyway. For example, K opposite AQxxx plays for one loser 63% of the time. xx opposite AQxxx plays for one loser 18% of the time.

The benefit of 1NT is that it gets your values across and you don't have to bid a crappy suit at the 2-level. With 8 or 9 points partner could easily pass 2D when you have a game on.
  #1058  
Old 04-10-2019, 02:37 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Had a fun hand last night.

I held S: JT9xxx H:AQxx DAx C:x and opened 1S. Partner held S:AKQxxx H:KJxx D:x C:KQ! He raised to 4S which I left. The lead was the Ace of Clubs and after dummy was tabled, I just tabled my own hand and claimed. The question arose of how to reach 6S. We decided that if we had being playing splinters the bidding would have gone 1S - 4D (splinter) - 4H (cue) - 4N (Blackwood) - 5H (2 Aces) - 6S. But we weren't playing splinters so how should we have bid?

At other tables my hand passed and raised partner's opening 1S to 4. Personally, I'd open that hand with a strong 2S or 2C.
  #1059  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:17 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,104
Make partner's hand a little weaker and bidding might be a challenge, but as is: Jump to (any variety of) Blackwood! Opposite three Aces, 13 tricks will be at worst on a finesse.
  #1060  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:28 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Had a fun hand last night.

I held S: JT9xxx H:AQxx DAx C:x and opened 1S. Partner held S:AKQxxx H:KJxx D:x C:KQ! He raised to 4S which I left. The lead was the Ace of Clubs and after dummy was tabled, I just tabled my own hand and claimed. The question arose of how to reach 6S. We decided that if we had being playing splinters the bidding would have gone 1S - 4D (splinter) - 4H (cue) - 4N (Blackwood) - 5H (2 Aces) - 6S. But we weren't playing splinters so how should we have bid?

At other tables my hand passed and raised partner's opening 1S to 4. Personally, I'd open that hand with a strong 2S or 2C.
If you have no game-forcing raise, you can't bid the hand. Jacoby 2NT takes about 30 seconds to discuss with partner, fills a gaping hole in Acol, and is the tool most people learn first in a natural bidding system.

You wouldn't make a direct splinter in response holding 18hcp, as it goes - too strong. Splinters are tightly defined in terms of shape (obv) but also strength - pard needs to know exactly where they stand to evaluate slam, as it puts you on the 4 level immediately. I play 10-12 which I think is fairly common.

There are other sequences where a splinter can have quite different hcp qualities, but that immediate bid from responder has to be quite disciplined in terms of strength.
  #1061  
Old 04-10-2019, 02:10 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 310
1S - 3H is a game-forcing raise in every natural system I've heard of, and it works fine here: 1S - 3H, 4H - 4NT, 5H - 6S (if you're playing RKCB, that 5H will be 5S, but it matters not).

Jacoby 2NT, if you're playing it, is better (and it works over an opening 1H, while 1H - 2S gets risky if partner raises Spades), but a lot of Acol players play 1H/S - 2NT as an invitational raise rather than an unconditional force.

Or there's a straight Blackwood 4NT, as septimus suggested.
Whatever the system, 4S is a serious underbid - you have a 4-loser hand and a massive fit.
  #1062  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:31 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,104
Assuming partner has a 5-card suit (and even the "Often 4"ers don't open Jxxx, do they?), it is a 60% a priori chance that he has two or fewer hearts. (The a posteriori chance is even higher since RHO failed to pre-empt in a minor.)

This could be a textbook hand, even with the two Queens removed, of where an immediate jump to Blackwood is absolutely clear-cut. (Or is the field so tough that making 7S will be below average, that you need to discover 13 top tricks in No Trump?)

Save the mental effort for the next board; I hear it involves a winkle squeeze!
  #1063  
Old 04-12-2019, 03:22 AM
Dead Cat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3,996
Even this beginner knows that 1S - 4S implies a relatively weak holding by responder. Serious raised eyebrow there. I think merrick has the right sequence - change suit to force another bid, and jump to show extra strength. Opener initially thinks hearts are going to be trumps, but it doesn't matter - responder will always make sure it's spades.
  #1064  
Old 04-12-2019, 04:01 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Assuming partner has a 5-card suit (and even the "Often 4"ers don't open Jxxx, do they?),
They would if they were going to rebid NT. Say you were playing a 15-17 NT and had 13 HCP and were 4333. You open 1S, pass partner's 1NT or 2S and over any other 2 bid rebid 2N.
  #1065  
Old 04-12-2019, 07:13 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrick View Post
1S - 3H is a game-forcing raise in every natural system I've heard of, and it works fine here: 1S - 3H, 4H - 4NT, 5H - 6S (if you're playing RKCB, that 5H will be 5S, but it matters not).

Jacoby 2NT, if you're playing it, is better (and it works over an opening 1H, while 1H - 2S gets risky if partner raises Spades), but a lot of Acol players play 1H/S - 2NT as an invitational raise rather than an unconditional force.

Or there's a straight Blackwood 4NT, as septimus suggested.
Whatever the system, 4S is a serious underbid - you have a 4-loser hand and a massive fit.
Do you really mean that 1S - 3H is a "raise", i.e. guarantees spade support, or just that it is a game forcing bid? I have played ACOL, Standard American and 2/1 and have never come across 3H being a raise in any of those systems, but in all it would be a game-forcing jump shift showing hearts.

I agree with the rest of the post and comments by others about Jacoby 2NT and splinters (limited in high cards) being the way forward with game-going hands, leaving a direct 4S for weak, distributional hands, e.g. Qxxxx x Axxx xxx.

For splinters, I like a style where there are two levels of splinter - 9-11 HCP and 12 - 14. You show the former by bidding one over the trump suit, i.e. 1S - 3NT and 1H - 3S. These say "I have a game force, 9-11 HCP and a singleton/void somewhere." If opener has no interest in slam, he signs off in 4 of the major and you have not given away the information to opponents about where the shortage is. An immediate splinter shows 12 - 14 HCP.

Traditional Jacoby 2NT has some flaws, principally that the sequence 1S - 2NT - 4S (showing a minimum) preempts responder if he has a very good hand, so now has to make slam tries at the 5-level. Experts generally use modified responses to J2NT.

On the actual hand, no matter what you play, 4S is way too wimpy with that mountain.
  #1066  
Old 04-12-2019, 12:48 PM
merrick is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Do you really mean that 1S - 3H is a "raise", i.e. guarantees spade support, or just that it is a game forcing bid?
You are correct, I was misunderstanding. It's an unconditional game force, but says nothing about Spades.

I'll still defend it as the best way to handle this hand if you're not playing something like Jacoby - you need to get your strength across and 4S just doesn't do that.
It gets more awkward if you don't have a second suit to force in - Murphy says that that if you force with say 1S - 3C on a 6-3-1-3 distribution, partner will immediately raise your phony suit, though in practice you can usually investigate slam and then correct to Spades.
  #1067  
Old 04-12-2019, 01:12 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
I dislike the 3H raise as it consumes too much bidding space. 2H or 2S over 1 of a minor would be a different matter. In this case the bidding would go 1S - 3H - 4H and you've missed the opportunity for cue-bidding and have to go straight to Blackwood.
  #1068  
Old 04-13-2019, 04:37 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,104
Questions about Jacoby 2NT playing 5-card majors.

(1) Does anyone play that that bid is allowed with 3-card support? It seems to me that over 1H, any other bid with, e.g. Ax-AQx-Kxxx-xxxx, just muddies the waters unnecessarily.

(2) In response to 2NT, opener is supposed to bid 4M, 3NT, 3M with a minimum, above-minimum, or strong hand respectively. My regular partner insists that this is unnecessary precision as to strength and that 3NT should show a 5-3-3-2 suitable for play in No Trump. Do y'all agree with me that he's wrong?

(3) Some advocate that in response to 2NT, opener needs a sound opener (13 hcp OR a good suit) to show his shortness; with 12hcp or less AND a mediocre suit he should bid 4M despite the singleton. This makes sense to me. What do others think? (Replace the 13/12 hcp with 12/11 hcp if you open super-light.)

Last edited by septimus; 04-13-2019 at 04:41 AM.
  #1069  
Old 04-13-2019, 05:30 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Questions about Jacoby 2NT playing 5-card majors.
Kibbitz mode ON!
  #1070  
Old 04-13-2019, 06:49 AM
amarone is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Questions about Jacoby 2NT playing 5-card majors.

(1) Does anyone play that that bid is allowed with 3-card support? It seems to me that over 1H, any other bid with, e.g. Ax-AQx-Kxxx-xxxx, just muddies the waters unnecessarily.
I have seen it, but rarely. I do not. With the hand given, you bid 2D then 4H next time. There's no need to bid 4-card suits up the line when you intend to support hearts next, so you should show your better suit.

Quote:
(2) In response to 2NT, opener is supposed to bid 4M, 3NT, 3M with a minimum, above-minimum, or strong hand respectively. My regular partner insists that this is unnecessary precision as to strength and that 3NT should show a 5-3-3-2 suitable for play in No Trump. Do y'all agree with me that he's wrong?
I agree with you. You have used up lots of room with the 2NT bid so to bid 3NT without giving any indication of strength means you get to the 4-level before being able to explore. And how often do you want to play in 3NT when you hold a 5-4 major suit fit?

Quote:
(3) Some advocate that in response to 2NT, opener needs a sound opener (13 hcp OR a good suit) to show his shortness; with 12hcp or less AND a mediocre suit he should bid 4M despite the singleton. This makes sense to me. What do others think? (Replace the 13/12 hcp with 12/11 hcp if you open super-light.)
I posted elsewhere that I think the jump to 4M is a weakness of traditional J2NT responses. I prefer a bid of 3C to show a minimum. Responder then has a means of asking for shortness (3D). However, if not playing that method, I prefer to show shortage if I have it to avoid preempting partner with a 4M bid.


Here is an article on J2NT and alternative responses. https://bridgewinners.com/article/vi...ng-jacoby-2nt/
  #1071  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:04 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
Dammit, I missed out on 7N last night. I'd gone Blackwood and squeaked when my partner was about to pass my bid of 5N. I fessed up and pointed out that it was Unauthorised Information so she should pass. 7N was, of course, cold.
  #1072  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:26 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,810
I picked up a genuine yarborough tonight, no card higher than a nine, which I can't recall having before. After the board the woman on my right said she'd only ever had one in her life, and as she looked about 83 I decided to take a photo of it, thinking it was exceptionally rare.

Looking it up it's a probability of 1 in every 1828 hands - so fairly rare but you'll likely pick one up every couple of years if you played a club game once a week.
  #1073  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:31 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 30,986
I've had at least one this year already.

ETA: I play several thousand boards a year.

Last edited by Quartz; 05-07-2019 at 05:32 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017