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Old 05-02-2019, 06:58 PM
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What are some good exercises or equipment for pectorals?


I don't particularly like the idea of relying on specialized equipment for specific muscles but the ab roller I recently got made me realize I might be too closed minded. I might have got it for $3 at the Dollar Store but it's excellent exercise judging by how sore I am two days later.

So, what are some good exercises or equipment for pectorals? I'm tired of push-ups and I dislike presses because they involve holding heavy metal objects above me, especially since I sometimes go heavy on weights and exert myself to exhaustion. I might forget to close my door and then one of my cats could come next to me and get in the way of a 30lbs+ dumbbell which is an unacceptable risk. I prefer doing strength training at home.


Does a push-up frame make a big difference compared to just laying your hands on the ground? https://www.amazon.ca/WINOMO-Push-up...=sports&sr=1-3

How about an arm force bar? https://www.amazon.ca/Comprehensive-...=sports&sr=1-2 or this? https://www.amazon.ca/Household-Pect...=sports&sr=1-1

Anything else?



Since I mentioned my cats, the board rules require me to post this to show you whose safety you'll be contributing to: https://imgur.com/OjmKLQf
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:40 PM
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First the science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyEaPmEGlwo

Then the exercise without equipment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4xXbPhzUrQ&t=177s
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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Also get yourself some resistance bands and and exercies ball and do these as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0id0POSOkA
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Old 05-03-2019, 01:50 AM
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I built pecs that receive admiring commentary using two old high-backed chairs and doing a variety of bodyweight and weighted dips on them. "The upper body squat", as they say.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:43 AM
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I'll get laughed at probably, but....

This is only for definition of the pec muscle. Get a bicycle pump and and do 100 pumps into a tire per day. I did this all summer on a leaky truck tire. Chest got super defined. Especially if you're already lean.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:48 AM
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Once you gain a baseline level of strength, there are many advanced techniques you can employ to significantly increase the difficulty and intensity of the classic pushup.

Im too tired to catalog all of them but off the top of my head you have "diamonds" which are pushups in which the hands are brought together on the ground in the approximate shape of a diamond directly underneath your chest. This works the triceps much more directly, with less (but still significant) pectoral work. But you don't want to neglect triceps when wanting to increase chest strength and musculature. Triceps take over during the top part of a chest press so strong tris will go a long way in helping you reach your chest training goals.

Also, you have what I'll call "fist pushups". These are exactly what they sound like: pushups with your hands balled up into tight fists, knuckles down. Popularized by boxers and martial artists, fist or knuckle pushups are an excellent way to strengthen your wrists apart from reaping all the benefits of a classic pushup. In this routine, the upper body is supported on the knuckles rather than the palms.

Next there are "clap pushups". Clap pushups enhance core stability. They also builds shoulder mobility, quick reflexes and upper-body strength. As reach the bottom of the range of motion of the pushup, get ready to explode on your way back up and as you do, take both hands off the floor long enough to clap your hands and get them back down again in time to succesfully complete the pushup.

This is all i can muster right now. There are more tho.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:08 AM
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Also get yourself some resistance bands and and exercies ball and do these as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0id0POSOkA
Thank you, the science and exercise ball links were quite helpful.

I've been in the market for a computer chair and they're out of my price range at this time but I see that exercise balls are useful both for core exercises and are recommended as an alternative to office chairs while being much cheaper than a quality computer chair.

Are some exercise balls or features which are better than others? Is there a ball that rules them all?

ETA: I'm seeing peanut balls too. Are those gimmicky or a clever improvement? https://www.amazon.ca/Black-Mountain...ustomerReviews

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 05-03-2019 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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I'll get laughed at probably, but....

This is only for definition of the pec muscle. Get a bicycle pump and and do 100 pumps into a tire per day. I did this all summer on a leaky truck tire. Chest got super defined. Especially if you're already lean.
You get definition by low bodyfat levels. Full stop. You may have been getting a *pump* from all the blood being forced into the muscle but you really weren't doing anything to affect muscle definition. Sorry.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 05-03-2019 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:53 AM
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Thank you, the science and exercise ball links were quite helpful.

I've been in the market for a computer chair and they're out of my price range at this time but I see that exercise balls are useful both for core exercises and are recommended as an alternative to office chairs while being much cheaper than a quality computer chair.

Are some exercise balls or features which are better than others? Is there a ball that rules them all?

ETA: I'm seeing peanut balls too. Are those gimmicky or a clever improvement? https://www.amazon.ca/Black-Mountain...ustomerReviews
It has more stability along the long axis. Which is fine if you're looking for that. I think you can make it work. However, if you want maximum flexibility of use, consider a regular exercise ball and a base combo for using as an office chair. I would not spend very many hours using it as such without getting up and walking around. I think you might find your posture sagging forward as you get tired later in the day. Most of the brands are generally fine for home use. SPRI used to be the most ruggedly built. But go by Amazon reviews and you'll probably end up with something decent.

As noted above. Don't just focus on pecs. Include all around conditioning, especially upper back work to avoid shoulders being pulled forward and thus risking impingement injuries. If you're fit enough, get an inexpensive chin-up bar (my favorite for home use). If you're just starting out, among many other great exercise options, you can use the elastic bands as an assist for your chin up routines.

High gain potentials, low cat injury risks.
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Old 05-03-2019, 08:39 AM
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if you want maximum flexibility of use, consider a regular exercise ball and a base combo for using as an office chair.
How would the peanut ball have less flexibility of use? Do you only mean that it couldn't be used as an office chair or is there some other purpose which a round exercise ball could do but a peanut ball couldn't?

Why couldn't it be used as an office chair? Sure, it would look silly, but if I'm using a big balloon as a chair, I've made peace with it.


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I would not spend very many hours using it as such without getting up and walking around. I think you might find your posture sagging forward as you get tired later in the day.
I agree. Getting up and moving about every half hour is a good idea no matter what. I'll probably switch back and forth between an ordinary chair and a ball throughout the day.


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Don't just focus on pecs. Include all around conditioning, especially upper back work to avoid shoulders being pulled forward and thus risking impingement injuries. If you're fit enough, get an inexpensive chin-up bar
I've had one since 2006 although I haven't used it as much as I could since I've only been getting back into exercise gradually. I thought chin-ups and pull-ups only worked biceps and shoulders but I will start doing pull-ups this weekend. Thanks.

Generally, I think I'll be doing alright in terms of aerobic exercise and limb strength, it's core muscles I'm trying to figure out how to exercise efficiently. So if you have anything to say about any core exercise or equipment that does a good job, I'd like to hear it.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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How would the peanut ball have less flexibility of use? Do you only mean that it couldn't be used as an office chair or is there some other purpose which a round exercise ball could do but a peanut ball couldn't?

Why couldn't it be used as an office chair? Sure, it would look silly, but if I'm using a big balloon as a chair, I've made peace with it.
Nah, it's not a question of whether one is more silly than the other. Both are equally silly. One example where a ball might be better than a peanut ball is in those push-ups in the video. You'll have less stability with a ball. But that's just a preference thing, not a, "You're doing it wrong!" thing.


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I've had one since 2006 although I haven't used it as much as I could since I've only been getting back into exercise gradually. I thought chin-ups and pull-ups only worked biceps and shoulders but I will start doing pull-ups this weekend. Thanks.
Depending on what grip you use. Palms towards you, engage your biceps more than palms parallel, and less still with palms away. They all engage your back and lats, again to greater or lesser degree. Just like for push-ups, there are advanced variations you can use to target certain upper body muscle groups more than just your standard pull/chin-up.

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Generally, I think I'll be doing alright in terms of aerobic exercise and limb strength, it's core muscles I'm trying to figure out how to exercise efficiently. So if you have anything to say about any core exercise or equipment that does a good job, I'd like to hear it.
You can do lots of good core/ab work hanging from a bar. So that's an added bonus.

I do a bunch of core work because I just like it. Jeff Cavalier (Athlean X Youtube channel) offers many good examples. I switch things up to keep them from getting boring. I like this group of ab/core exercises currently featured on Eb & Swole. There is a bunch of great ideas there that use the resistance band to challenge your core. I'm a little obsessed with the resistance band these days.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-03-2019 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:01 AM
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Depending on what grip you use. Palms towards you, engage your biceps more than palms parallel, and less still with palms away. They all engage your back and lats, again to greater or lesser degree.
Since he has no real knowledge base here, I think I'll add that in addition to grip placement, hand width plays a big role in the degree to which all those muscles are engaged.

The wide-grip pull-up is pretty much universally recognized as the most challenging grip/width combo for the pullup. Perhaps not so universally (or maybe it is I'm not sure) agreed on but definitely IMHO. chin-ups with a slightly narrower than shoulder-width grip is the least challenging. This is because, as Quiicksilver pointed out, the chin-up takes the most workload off the lats and allows them to pull more weight. As both the grip turns outward and it widens, that workload is transferred more and more exclusively to the lats.

But wide grip pull ups are where it's at. When people think of lats they think of a wide wingspan. No form of pull up works the lats more than this one. So any lat program, regardless of it's goal, should include wide gtip pull ups to some degree.
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:24 AM
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For sure.
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Old 05-03-2019, 11:54 AM
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I prefer doing strength training at home.
I understand. But if you're serious about strengthening your pecs, you really need to get to a gym on a regular basis. IMO the best chest exercise is dumbbell presses while lying on a bench.
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:09 PM
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I understand. But if you're serious about strengthening your pecs, you really need to get to a gym on a regular basis. IMO the best chest exercise is dumbbell presses while lying on a bench.
I've done dumbbell presses while lying on the floor. I suppose using a bench provides a full range of motion? If so, I might jury-rig something. I just need a short flat surface that will support 200-300lbs, correct?
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:36 PM
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I've done dumbbell presses while lying on the floor. I suppose using a bench provides a full range of motion? If so, I might jury-rig something. I just need a short flat surface that will support 200-300lbs, correct?
Athlean-X on the floor bench press. And why.
(He's a physical therapist and was the NY Mets' Head Physical Therapist for several years.
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Old 05-03-2019, 01:47 PM
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Athlean-X on the floor bench press. And why.
(He's a physical therapist and was the NY Mets' Head Physical Therapist for several years.
Beat me to it.
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Old 05-03-2019, 01:50 PM
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I've done dumbbell presses while lying on the floor. I suppose using a bench provides a full range of motion? If so, I might jury-rig something. I just need a short flat surface that will support 200-300lbs, correct?
If you've changed your mind and are now willing to risk the cat's lives, you don't need a bench. You can do your chest dumbbell presses on your office chair exercise ball.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-03-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:02 PM
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If you've changed your mind and are now willing to risk the cat's lives, you don't need a bench. You can do your chest dumbbell presses on your office chair exercise ball.
Fair point, I lost track of more important factors.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:08 PM
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Fair point, I lost track of more important factors.
Also, you can't fall off the floor.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:17 PM
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Also, you can't fall off the floor.
That sounds like a challenge.


Let me think...

I know how!

With a big enough weight, a fragile enough floor and enough clumsiness, I know I can make it.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:09 AM
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But if you're serious about strengthening your pecs, you really need to get to a gym on a regular basis.
Simply not true. I've worked out at home, seriously, and tripled my baseline strength. For pecs, see my above comment.

Rippetoe etc. all concur that the bench press in its many forms is not ideal for pec development. I never could get even dumbell benching to work my pecs before my arms fatigued. Not so with dipping.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:50 AM
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Yep. Dips good.
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Old 05-04-2019, 02:10 PM
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You get definition by low bodyfat levels. Full stop. You may have been getting a *pump* from all the blood being forced into the muscle but you really weren't doing anything to affect muscle definition. Sorry.
So, I have to ask what your thoughts are on decline bench press for the chest muscle??
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:19 PM
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So, I have to ask what your thoughts are on decline bench press for the chest muscle??
Unnecessary and risky.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:09 PM
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There are a lot of fitness accessories and many of them are useless or close. A roller is good for abdominal exercises. But I wouldn’t put push up handles in the same category.

Pushups remain a decent exercise. Once the standard ones become too easy, you can work towards archer and one-armed pushups.

Bench presses are pretty effective and are done because people enjoy doing them. Ego is involved because you can lift a lot of weight, but this is not an entirely bad thing, and they do work. Dumbbells allow a better range of motion. If there are safety concerns, a Smith machine doing floor presses may be helpful. The machines have a more prescribed motion but have their place at the end of a workout.

Dips are one of the best pec exercises. You can emphasize the chest or triceps by bending your legs behind or in front of your body, and after working up to a high volume can add weight.

Flyes and posterior flyes have their place too to work the chest and shoulder rotator cuffs. The chest plays a secondary role in rows, close grip pull-ups, squats and deadlifts, but since bigger weights can be used this can still be significant.

A dip belt would be the best accessory for working the chest. Pushups are not very uncomfortable and the tools that make them slightly more comfortable likely don’t lead to better results. You might get better results from gymnastics rings, but many gyms don’t Have these or let you bring your own.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:50 AM
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A dip belt would be the best accessory for working the chest. Pushups are not very uncomfortable and the tools that make them slightly more comfortable likely don’t lead to better results. You might get better results from gymnastics rings, but many gyms don’t Have these or let you bring your own.
What are the best uses for gymnastic rings? I can suspend them from my pull-up bar.

They're just suspended rings, right? I can either buy them for $20-30 on Amazon or improvise something cheaper from the hardware store.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:42 PM
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You get definition by low bodyfat levels. Full stop. You may have been getting a *pump* from all the blood being forced into the muscle but you really weren't doing anything to affect muscle definition. Sorry.
It's true that this is the difference between having definition vs. being smooth but to have muscle definition you have to have muscle to define, otherwise getting your body fat down makes you look like a prisoner of war.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:49 PM
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Lots of dip lovers here. They're a great exercise, but they can be hell on the rotator cuff even if performed correctly. Of course that can be said of most chest exercises, but it's especially true with dips. If not performed correctly, they can really rip them up.

The other con from dips is that they focus more on lower pec development as the humeri will be in a similar position as in decline benches. Most people want more upper pec development for aesthetic reasons.

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Simply not true. I've worked out at home, seriously, and tripled my baseline strength. For pecs, see my above comment.
I haven't met anyone that was serious (using my definition) about pec development and also built an impressive set of pecs strength or size-wise that didn't employ some form of bench pressing. I have trained with professional powerlifters and bodybuilders for over 20 years and have trained for 35 years.

Quote:
Rippetoe etc. all concur that the bench press in its many forms is not ideal for pec development.
Rippetoe said that? Can you cite that, please? Who are "etc"? It seems like you're claiming the majority of strength or bodybuilding coaches claim that various forms of benching are less than ideal for chest development.

For those that are unaware, Mark Rippetoe is the former powerlifter and strength coach that wrote that wrote Starting Strength. His program of the same name focuses on the bench press as "the" chest exercise.

In all volumes of that book, you will find the following:

The reason that isolated body part training on machines doesn’t work is the same reason that barbells work so well, better than any other tools we can use to gain strength.

...

So, as good an exercise as the dumbbell bench may be, you will be bench pressing with a barbell, as the weight of history and precedent demands. The bench press, or supine press (one occasionally sees old references to the “prone press” in badly edited sources), is a popular, useful exercise. It is arguably the best way to develop raw upper-body strength, and done correctly, it is a valuable addition to your strength and conditioning program.

Mark said the following in a fairly recent interview:

:If we’re talking about the muscle group chest, this is the kind of thing that if you are interested in developing your “chest,” you better be benching heavy because all of the cable crossovers and dumbbell flyes in the world will not make the damn thing grow like getting your bench press up to 350.

If you want a noticeable chest through your shirt, the most important thing you can do is get your bench press up.

...

You have to approach this sensibly, in a way to get your bench up. The best way to get your chest big is to get your bench big.

https://www.muscleforlife.com/mark-r...th-aesthetics/
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:07 PM
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I haven't met anyone that was serious (using my definition) about pec development and also built an impressive set of pecs strength or size-wise that didn't employ some form of bench pressing. I have trained with professional powerlifters and bodybuilders for over 20 years and have trained for 35 years.
How about using raised leg push-ups or using a loaded backpack?

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 05-06-2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:13 PM
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It's true that this is the difference between having definition vs. being smooth but to have muscle definition you have to have muscle to define, otherwise getting your body fat down makes you look like a prisoner of war.
Well, yes. But the specific coversation was re someone who had been doing exercises to make gains in muscle definition. So I was using the model of a person who already had a baseline level of muscle mass and wanted to have it more clearly defined when i made that statement. While doing endless repetitions with an air pump certainly won't build much, if any, muscle, it does probably provide a slightly better calorie burn. So in that sense, it does assist in furthering muscle definition (however slight that assistance may be).
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:39 PM
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How about using raised leg push-ups or using a loaded backpack?
Sure, there are few exercises I would say "don't do that" to. It all depends on your goals. "I want the strongest pecs I can possibly get" is going to involve a different exercise selection and programming than "I want to be a little stronger than I am now."
Don't forget programming. This is as or more important than exercise selection. There are lots of gurus out there that are going to give you subpar or plain bad info. If you're interested in doing a little research yourself, here are some names to Google that will give you solid info (in no particular order, some more for size than strength and vice-versa):

Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld, Mike Israetel, Greg Nuckols, Bret Contreras, Layne Norton, James Krieger and a few solid YouTube channels: OmarIsuf, Jeff Nippard and SoheeFit.

At the risk of getting in a debate as his channel was mentioned in this thread, I don't recommend ATHLEAN-X.
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:11 AM
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At the risk of getting in a debate as his channel was mentioned in this thread, I don't recommend ATHLEAN-X.
Why not?
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:39 AM
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Why not?
Also curious. I've found their advice useful for my lower back (thanks, Quicksilver!) but if there are important caveats, I'd like to know them. You don't need to reply to combative replies.
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:48 AM
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I understand. But if you're serious about strengthening your pecs, you really need to get to a gym on a regular basis. IMO the best chest exercise is dumbbell presses while lying on a bench.
I mean, you can get yourself some dumbbells and a bench for petty cash. That stuff is forever for sale secondhand.
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:05 AM
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Get plate-loading dumbbells if you can, so you can increase the resistance as you get stronger.

Work out at home if it helps you stick to your routine. For myself, I prefer a gym - it would be a long time before my monthly gym fees added up to more than buying all the barbells/dumbbells/plates/racks/machines that are available where I currently work out. YMMV.

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Old 05-08-2019, 11:10 AM
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I mean, you can get yourself some dumbbells and a bench for petty cash. That stuff is forever for sale secondhand.
I guess my problem is more that I live in a flat and a bench might take up a little too much room. Then again, maybe not.

Thanks.
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Old 05-08-2019, 12:22 PM
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Get plate-loading dumbbells if you can, so you can increase the resistance as you get stronger.

Work out at home if it helps you stick to your routine. For myself, I prefer a gym - it would be a long time before my monthly gym fees added up to more than buying all the barbells/dumbbells/plates/racks/machines that are available where I currently work out. YMMV.

Regards,
Shodan
Plus, it's hard to progress in benching/chest work w/free weights when you are training alone. Part of the reason I prefer training at a gym is the availability of spotters.
  #39  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:37 PM
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This might be a little sloppy as I don't have a lot of time:

Aside from the click-baity titles, Athlean-X also give clic-baity advice in the video content, often just declaring one thing is "the best" and gives little evidence to support it. Taking a quick look at his channel, I see the following title "The Fastest Way to Big Biceps (WORKS EVERY TIME!)."

Okay, that caught my eye as intended. I want big biceps fast, I gotta click it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXVeJaa4WcM

In the video he claims a specific modified chin-up is the answer to fastest biceps growth. The reason he states later in the video: "You'll be shocked at how much this will overload your biceps, in a novel and unique way, because if you're used to just curling dumbbells or curling a barbell, you're likely not getting as much stress on your biceps as this is going to do." He makes some other claims regarding why his modifications are superior, but provides no evidence. The technique is going to be impossible for most people to carry out and I'm not buying the blanket claim that it grows biceps "faster" than using a curl bar. For beginners? For advanced athletes? I guess just for everyone. No studies, just some unfounded claims. I've seen too many similar videos on his channel.

He must have learned a lot since 2013 as he had a not so commonly used curl variation for building biceps "the fastest":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TP9...ature=youtu.be


Years ago Jeff got slaughtered online for a video that he has since deleted ( Ithink it's been deleted, I couldn't find it) claiming the underhand pressdown is superior to the overhand pressdown or neutral grip using a rope for triceps development.

Here is a good video explaining why he's wrong. You can skip to about the 2 minute mark for the anatomy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDK6Tb6n0qM

Jeff was a little butt-hurt regarding being debunked and still defended it the superiority of the underhand pressdown years later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGwCzBFsG3I

His reason: Apparently one can't help but to internally rotate the shoulder with a palms-up grip. Strange, as I have no problems not internally rotating my shoulders even with a narrow bar, but they do, of course, have wider bars for pushdowns (I prefer a rope).

One of the folks I recommended earlier, Brad Schoenfeld, (who has a PhD in exercise science) doesn't get it either:

https://twitter.com/bradschoenfeld/s...501953?lang=en


Speaking of triceps, here's a video where he claims the triceps kickback is a great triceps exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTsNG5c568k

He tells us what the criticisms are regarding why they aren't that great- the criticisms are correct. He then says just do the last third of the exercise as regarding the first two thirds "who cares what leads up to that." Seriously? He doesn't care about full range of motion?

The title of the above video is "The Tricep Exercise You STOPPED Doing (BIG MISTAKE!)." The reason people "stopped" doing it is because they have access to a weight stack that allows them to perform a superior exercise where the humerus is in the same position relative to the torso: the triceps pushdown with a rope. Why is it superior? Because the weight is going straight up and down and one is getting lots of tension at all phases of the movement. That's not an insignificant difference. Try several sets of heavy pushdowns one day and kickbacks another and the difference you'll feel is huge.

Out of time, but he's selling forms of creatine more expensive than creatine monohydrate, which is super cheap and effective. It's been studied more than any supplement that aids in muscle building currently on the market and claiming they're superior forms:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWm4LyW32c

Yeah, there are company sponsored studies showing more expensive forms are superior. The majority of studies show plain old creatine monohydrate is going to saturate the muscle with creatine without claims that Jeff is making such as gastric upset, etc. when taken at doses that are going to do the trick (5 g or less a day).

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...atine#section4

In short, the people I suggested earlier don't have click-baity advice and I don't usually disagree with any of them.
  #40  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray vision View Post
His reason: Apparently one can't help but to internally rotate the shoulder with a palms-up grip.
Correction: That should end with "palms-down grip."

Regarding his original video that was heavily criticized at the time, he did not mention the internally rotated shoulder bit as to why palms-up is superior. He came up with that reasoning later.
  #41  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:26 PM
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I pretty much ignore any advice Jeff has to give about diet and supplements. He's not a nutritionist and I'm not a fan of supplements as a rule. Also, he's selling a program and I'm not the least bit interested in that either.

That said, a few things:

1) the bicep focused chin-ups are not for beginners but I don't think Jeff is suggesting that it should be. He is generally very good at differentiating between beginner and advanced techniques.
2) for me, they have definitely been effective.
3) with respect to overhand vs underhand tri pull-downs, I don't view Jeff's advice as being egregiously wrong because while underhand is a weaker grip, it has the benefit of reducing internal shoulder rotation.
4) for me, limiting existing shoulder impingement injury is more important than maximizing tri load.

Is ATHLEAN-X the ultimate authority on exercise? No, and nobody is saying that. That said, are you suggesting that because he may be wrong about some tri technique, therefore he's a quack?
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  #42  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:05 PM
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Man, I really didn't want to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I pretty much ignore any advice Jeff has to give about diet and supplements. He's not a nutritionist and I'm not a fan of supplements as a rule. Also, he's selling a program and I'm not the least bit interested in that either.
Great. Plenty of reasons to avoid him. However, you don't because apparently you can pick the wheat from the chaff. I don't recommend him because I have recommendations to others where wheat picking isn't necessary as their advice is mostly wheat.

Quote:
1) the bicep focused chin-ups are not for beginners but I don't think Jeff is suggesting that it should be. He is generally very good at differentiating between beginner and advanced techniques.
Unless I missed it- he didn't make any differentiation. He simply declared that exercise the fastest way to build bis. Other times, other exercises were fastest. The "fastest way to build blank" videos are not my cup of tea and neither are other types of videos he posts, and IMHO, should be avoided by those looking to learn about muscle/strength building.

Quote:
2) for me, they have definitely been effective.
Great. Most exercises are.

Quote:
3) with respect to overhand vs underhand tri pull-downs, I don't view Jeff's advice as being egregiously wrong because while underhand is a weaker grip, it has the benefit of reducing internal shoulder rotation.
I disagree. With an underhand grip strength/awkwardness is going to be a limiting factor as to how much one can put into the exercise. Not so with other grips that aren't going to force one to internally rotate shoulders as claimed, nor would it make that much of a difference if they were.

Quote:
4) for me, limiting existing shoulder impingement injury is more important than maximizing tri load.
Shoulder impingement with pushdowns? How?

Quote:
Is ATHLEAN-X the ultimate authority on exercise? No, and nobody is saying that.
Oh for crying out loud. I said I didn't recommend him. I was asked why and gave some reasons with limited time.

Quote:
That said, are you suggesting that because he may be wrong about some tri technique, therefore he's a quack?
From the beginning and end of my post:

Quote:
Aside from the click-baity titles, Athlean-X also give click-baity advice in the video content, often just declaring one thing is "the best" and gives little evidence to support it.

...

In short, the people I suggested earlier don't have click-baity advice and I don't usually disagree with any of them.

I probably won't have time to respond anymore today, and I probably won't want to. I made my case and people can take what's IMHO or ignore it.
  #43  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Plus, it's hard to progress in benching/chest work w/free weights when you are training alone. Part of the reason I prefer training at a gym is the availability of spotters.
Spotting is much less necessary with dumbbells - if you get stuck it's much easier to drop them than roll the bar down your front and sit up, which is what I heard recommended if you are stuck under a bench press you can't complete.

Of course dropping the 'bells is hard on the floor, but at least they don't roll up and strangle you or compress your chest.

I don't go to failure as a rule - I am too old, and I want strength as much as size, and you don't go to failure when training for strength. Same reason I don't do forced reps - never practice missing a lift.

I miss the days where I could go heavy two or three times a week and still be fresh on Mondays, but those days are long past.

And WADR, most of the arguments about "what's the best way to build biceps FAST!" miss the point. Supinated grip chin-ups are a perfectly good exercise. Are they better than curls? No. Are curls better than supinated grip chin-ups? No.

The better exercise is the one you like doing, that you can do consistently enough to progress. Beginners (and old people like me) should be doing mostly compound movements, so chins are "better" than curls. Unless you like curls. In which case, knock yourself out. I don't do triceps kickbacks and I don't do triceps pushdowns. I do close grip bench, and dips. Why? I like them, and I can go heavier on them (kickbacks are limited by the strength of my rear delts). Is that wrong? No - if I only did palms-up pushdowns I would have been bored to tears ten years ago. And I need to combat age-related muscle loss (to the extent possible) in the large muscle groups more than I need an extra quarter-inch on my arms.

Regards,
Shodan
  #44  
Old 05-14-2019, 05:42 PM
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What do you think of twister bars like this? https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01M1B5QGD/...v_ov_lig_dp_it



How about for the legs, especially the thighs?
Thigh master: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07KMTZ4J4/...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Whatever this is: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07FC9X487/...v_ov_lig_dp_it
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07C5JKDY2/...v_ov_lig_dp_it
  #45  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:17 AM
Shodan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
What do you think of twister bars like this? https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01M1B5QGD/...v_ov_lig_dp_it
Meh. Too gimmicky for my taste.

You cannot change the resistance with gadgets like this. If you buy it, and find you are not strong enough to bend the thing, you are doing isometrics at one angle, and those are not ideal for building strength over a range of motion. If you are strong enough, pretty soon you go over the 8-12 range of reps that are optimal for building muscle. Plate-loading barbells and dumbbells can increase in resistance with no upper limit, and a lower limit of the weight of the empty bar.

Training has to progress over time or you don't improve. You have to do more than you are used to doing, so your body adapts to doing more, then you do more, the body adapts again, and so on until you reach your genetically preset limits.

It is usually (for the intermediate lifter - someone who has been training for more than 6-12 months) to switch exercises every training cycle or so - that is, every 6-8 weeks. If you are doing bench press, do dumbbell bench press, or incline press, or dips, or whatever. Most of your adaptation takes place early in the cycle, so you get more bang for your buck spending most of your training time taking advantage of that.

If you like the bendy bar thing, and you have access to one, knock yourself out. If you can choose between that, or free weights or even machines, you are generally better off with weights.

Regards,
Shodan
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