Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:41 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 40,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nars Glinley View Post
I donít see why not. Until recently, it was illegal for American citizens to smoke Cuban cigars anywhere in the world.
Cite?
  #102  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:43 AM
Max S. is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Cite?
31 CFR 515.204 applies worldwide (text in spoiler), except as exempted by the Dept. of Treasury. From 1963 until 2015 there was no such exemption. On December 17, 2014 President Obama announced some Cuba policy changes[1]. On January 16, 2015 the Treasury made an exemption for the importation of up to $400 in Cuban goods per person, of which only $100 could be alcohol or tobacco and only then if for personal purposes[2]. On October 17, 2016 the Treasury removed those monetary limits[3].

SPOILER:
515.204 Importation of and dealings in certain merchandise.
  1. Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, no person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States may purchase, transport, import, or otherwise deal in or engage in any transaction with respect to any merchandise outside the United States if such merchandise:
    1. Is of Cuban origin; or
    2. Is or has been located in or transported from or through Cuba; or
    3. Is made or derived in whole or in part of any article which is the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba.
  2. [Reserved]


~Max

[1] Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes. (December 17, 2014). The White House: Office of the Press Secretary. Retrieved from https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...policy-changes
[2] 80 FR 2295, January 16, 2015
[3] 81 FR 71377, October 17, 2016

Last edited by Max S.; 05-15-2019 at 02:45 AM.
  #103  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:52 AM
clairobscur is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think double jeopardy only applies for the same charge in the same nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
Egypt and the United States constitute two separate sovereigns. Thus one act would cause two distinct crimes, a crime against Egypt and a crime against the United States.

Are you sure of it? I'm pretty certain it's not the case here, and that you can't be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you've been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let's assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 05-15-2019 at 05:55 AM.
  #104  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:40 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Are you sure of it? I'm pretty certain it's not the case here, and that you can't be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you've been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let's assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust.
The point is that a sovereign nation has no superior to tell it that it cannot try a person who has already been convicted in another country or tell it that it cannot charge its own citizens for smoking Cuban cigars or having sex with an underaged prostitute in other countries.

France may voluntarily limit itself and not prosecute someone who has already been tried in another country, but who is going to tell Egypt or the United States that you may not prosecute that person?
  #105  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:42 PM
eschrodinger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Are you sure of it? I'm pretty certain it's not the case here, and that you can't be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you've been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let's assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust.
Not only are Egypt and the US separate sovereigns who can each prosecute, but the individual states are as well. It is well-established that both the federal government and a state government can separately try a person for the same act. (The federal government needs a jurisdictional hook, though). Often the federal government defers if there is a state prosecution, or vice versa. But it comes up, often in high profile cases -- Michael Vick was prosecuted for his dog fighting ring by both the feds and the state of Virginia -- or when the first prosecution fails -- e.g., the federal trial of the officers who beat Rodney King.

Last edited by eschrodinger; 05-15-2019 at 02:42 PM.
  #106  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:45 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 40,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
31 CFR 515.204 applies worldwide (text in spoiler), except as exempted by the Dept. of Treasury. From 1963 until 2015 there was no such exemption. On December 17, 2014 President Obama announced some Cuba policy changes[1]. On January 16, 2015 the Treasury made an exemption for the importation of up to $400 in Cuban goods per person, of which only $100 could be alcohol or tobacco and only then if for personal purposes[2]. On October 17, 2016 the Treasury removed those monetary limits[3].

SPOILER:
515.204 Importation of and dealings in certain merchandise.
  1. Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, no person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States may purchase, transport, import, or otherwise deal in or engage in any transaction with respect to any merchandise outside the United States if such merchandise:
    1. Is of Cuban origin; or
    2. Is or has been located in or transported from or through Cuba; or
    3. Is made or derived in whole or in part of any article which is the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba.
  2. [Reserved]


~Max

[1] Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes. (December 17, 2014). The White House: Office of the Press Secretary. Retrieved from https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...policy-changes
[2] 80 FR 2295, January 16, 2015
[3] 81 FR 71377, October 17, 2016
Can't purchase, yes, but can smoke.
  #107  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:26 PM
Nars Glinley is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Can't purchase, yes, but can smoke.
If you canít engage in any transaction, how can you get one? Is a gift a transaction? I honestly donít know.
__________________
I've decided to spend more time criticizing things I don't understand. - Dogbert
  #108  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:47 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 40,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nars Glinley View Post
If you canít engage in any transaction, how can you get one? Is a gift a transaction? I honestly donít know.

Has to be a gift.
  #109  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:10 PM
Max S. is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Has to be a gift.
Gifts are transactions, if not under "dealings in" from 515.204 then under 515.201(b) which states (bolding mine):

Quote:
(b) All of the following transactions are prohibited, except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, if such transactions involve property in which any foreign country designated under this part, or any national thereof, has at any time on or since the effective date of this section had any interest of any nature whatsoever, direct or indirect:
  1. All dealings in, including, without limitation, transfers, withdrawals, or exportations of, any property or evidences of indebtedness or evidences of ownership of property by any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and
  2. All transfers outside the United States with regard to any property or property interest subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
  3. Any transaction for the purpose or which has the effect of evading or avoiding any of the prohibitions set forth in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section is hereby prohibited.
  4. For the purposes of this part, the term foreign country designated under this part and the term designated foreign country mean Cuba and the term effective date and the term effective date of this section mean with respect to Cuba, or any national thereof, 12:01 a.m., e.s.t., July 8, 1963.
...
"Transfer" is then defined as including gifts in 515.311 (bolding mine):
Quote:
ß515.310 Transfer.
The term transfer shall mean any actual or purported act or transaction, whether or not evidenced by writing, and whether or not done or preformed within the United States, the purpose, intent, or effect of which is to create, surrender, release, transfer, or alter, directly or indirectly, any right, remedy, power, privilege, or interest with respect to any property and without limitation upon the foregoing shall include the making, execution, or delivery of any assignment, power, conveyance, check, declaration, deed, deed of trust, power of attorney, power of appointment, bill of sale, mortgage, receipt, agreement, contract, certificate, gift, sale, affidavit, or statement; the appointment of any agent, trustee, or other fiduciary; the creation or transfer of any lien; the issuance, docketing, filing, or the levy of or under any judgment, decree, attachment, execution, or other judicial or administrative process or order, or the service of any garnishment; the acquisition of any interest of any nature whatsoever by reason of a judgment or decree of any foreign country; the fulfillment of any condition, or the exercise of any power of appointment, power of attorney, or other power.
With a bit of substitution I get the following law:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31 CFR 515.201(b)
...[T]he following transactions are prohibited, except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury..., if such transactions involve property in which [Cuba], or any national thereof, has at any time on or since [July 8, 1963] had any interest of any nature whatsoever, direct or indirect:
  1. All dealings in, including, without limitation, [gifts]... of any property... by any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and
  2. Any [gifts] outside the United States with regard to any property or property interest subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
...
~Max
  #110  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:40 PM
eschrodinger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 51
Nevermind.

Last edited by eschrodinger; 05-16-2019 at 12:43 PM.
  #111  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:45 PM
Nars Glinley is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschrodinger View Post
Except 31 CFR 515.585:
Thatís the law now. It was changed in 2016.
__________________
I've decided to spend more time criticizing things I don't understand. - Dogbert
  #112  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:48 PM
eschrodinger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 51
I don't see how #2 can apply to smoking a gift cigar abroad, as it requires a transaction involving property subject to US jurisdiction. It might cover buying a cigar using US-based property, but how would it apply to an entirely extraterritorial gift transaction?

ETA:. Sorry Nars -- I deleted as soon as I realized the law under discussion was from before the change. I didn't see you had replied.

Last edited by eschrodinger; 05-16-2019 at 12:50 PM.
  #113  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:12 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 40,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
Gifts are transactions, if not under "dealings in" from 515.204 then under 515.201(b) which states (bolding mine):



"Transfer" is then defined as including gifts in 515.311 (bolding mine):


With a bit of substitution I get the following law:


~Max

Yes, but those apply to the transferor, not the transferee.
  #114  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:56 PM
Max S. is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Yes, but those apply to the transferor, not the transferee.
Good catch, but I don't think it is reasonable for "transactions" in section 201 to include "transfers" of property (including gifts) while "transactions" in section 204 does not. My construction of 201 was to show that gifts are transactions.

~Max
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017