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  #151  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:28 PM
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I managed to put Bob on the Mun but alas, with only a third of the tank left, I fear he is stranded. I will have to come up with a design that can arrive there with more fuel and an open spot and rescue him. I insist on not using solid rocket boosters on my designs so that may be making this unnecessarily difficult.
  #152  
Old 06-28-2013, 07:10 AM
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Crisis on Multiple Kerbins


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I managed to put Bob on the Mun but alas, with only a third of the tank left, I fear he is stranded. I will have to come up with a design that can arrive there with more fuel and an open spot and rescue him. I insist on not using solid rocket boosters on my designs so that may be making this unnecessarily difficult.
It may be enough fuel to get back from Mun. Escape velocity is much, much lower so little burn time is needed to get into orbit. Just get the PE under about 40,000 on Kerbin and you should make it.

I spent much time designing a rescue craft for my Bill who is stuck on the Mun. I came up with a good design and launched it. After a perfect launch, for me anyway, I realized I was on a different character than the one who had Bill stuck. The first clue should have been the fact that the pilot was named Bill, but I'm not going to point any fingers. When I realized that there was no point in going to the Mun, I sent Bill from Kerbin 2 to Minmus, where he is now in orbit. I think that if he lands he may have enough fuel to get back, but the second stage still has about 2/3 of a full tank. I am really torn to see if I should land him on Mimus and bring him back or try to get him to Eve or Duna for a fly by, because I really doubt he could return from landing on one of those planets. In fact, I am fairly sure that you do need a lander/return vehicle combo to return from landing anywhere other than Mun or Minmus, but I'd love to be wrong there.

Of course, I could just strand my Bill on each planet in different universes and then design a perfect ship that could rescue them all. I'd call it 'Harbinger', I guess.
  #153  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:34 AM
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A third of a tank should be enough to get Bob back to Kerbin. You can get to Mün orbit at a very low altitude; you just need to be high enough to not smack your craft into any mountains. You also just need to enter Kerbin's atmosphere when you burn away from Mün. The upper Kerbin atmosphere is very thin, and gravity breaking can take many orbits, but if you hit under 50k, your reentry is guaranteed.
  #154  
Old 06-28-2013, 12:25 PM
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Here's my latest creation - a Kerbal Escape Module. Weighing in at a mere 300 kilograms, this microrocket provides a way to safely get back to Kerbin if things go wrong. It offers a bit over 500 m/s of delta-v when manned.
  #155  
Old 06-28-2013, 02:35 PM
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Here's my latest creation - a Kerbal Escape Module. Weighing in at a mere 300 kilograms, this microrocket provides a way to safely get back to Kerbin if things go wrong. It offers a bit over 500 m/s of delta-v when manned.
The astronaut just rides on the outside? I hope you have a space station in orbit above Kerbin or reentry is going to be dicey.

TBH Grumman, I'd love to see the different rockets you have designed. Like say for operations in the Mun and Minmus areas and for getting to Duna or Eve. Based on what I have done, I need to build much bigger rockets to get to other planets. I think my current design is good for maybe getting to other planets but again, I am worried about the return fuel. Generally speaking, how much fuel do you need to get back from Eve or Duna, would it be more than the FL-T400 can hold?
  #156  
Old 06-28-2013, 03:33 PM
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Here's my latest creation - a Kerbal Escape Module. Weighing in at a mere 300 kilograms, this microrocket provides a way to safely get back to Kerbin if things go wrong. It offers a bit over 500 m/s of delta-v when manned.
With a bigger tank, you could do this from space:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0

I wonder if the seat will fit a Jumbo fuel tank.
  #157  
Old 06-28-2013, 03:52 PM
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Bombing while facing the same way as Major Kong turned out to be a counter-intuitive as all the controls are inversed so I did it straight:

http://i.imgur.com/CyrCty2.jpg

He survived the explosion of the improvised bomb (I made sure to leave a good amount of propellant in the tank), flew to around 30K and then hit the ground. The ground survived so that's a 50% survival rate.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-28-2013 at 03:54 PM.
  #158  
Old 06-28-2013, 04:21 PM
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I indeed have enough fuel to get back, barely. It all would have gone picture perfect had I not neglected to put a decoupler between the capsule and the last stage. Splash down was a little rough, since it included the explosion of the fuel tank and other assorted fireworks, but Bob seemed to enjoy it.
  #159  
Old 06-28-2013, 05:40 PM
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Jeremiah made it to Minimus, and decided to jump over his ship.
  #160  
Old 06-28-2013, 11:17 PM
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I can't even get a Kerbal into a stable orbit. I got one around twice, but the orbit was like 600KM high at one end and 45 at the other so the upper atmosphere brought them down on the second go around. Unfortunately for what reason I do not know, their parachute failed and they died, but I'm not running outta volunteers.
  #161  
Old 06-28-2013, 11:30 PM
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The astronaut just rides on the outside? I hope you have a space station in orbit above Kerbin or reentry is going to be dicey.
Reentry works fine. The biggest problem with it is that the Kerbal throws off the balance of the thing, so you need to compensate.

Quote:
TBH Grumman, I'd love to see the different rockets you have designed. Like say for operations in the Mun and Minmus areas and for getting to Duna or Eve. Based on what I have done, I need to build much bigger rockets to get to other planets. I think my current design is good for maybe getting to other planets but again, I am worried about the return fuel. Generally speaking, how much fuel do you need to get back from Eve or Duna, would it be more than the FL-T400 can hold?
I'll get back to you - at the moment I still don't have a way to get to the Mun and back that I'm happy with, so it might take some time to get my designs finalised.

Last edited by Grumman; 06-28-2013 at 11:33 PM.
  #162  
Old 06-29-2013, 12:26 AM
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Well, I got a Kerbal into a sustainable, multi-circuit orbit and got him back alive using rocket power. I can go to sleep now. Jeremiah's a hero.
  #163  
Old 06-29-2013, 02:17 AM
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Here's the first section of my first space station: the Escape Module Module. It has a tiny docking port on one end and a large docking port on the other, as well as twelve of my single-use microrockets.
  #164  
Old 06-29-2013, 08:25 AM
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I forgot a couple weeks ago I ended up live streaming my first attempts at space ship construction and took some suggestions from other SDMBers as we went, which mostly amounted to "more solid boosters", "more fins", and "paint some flames on it". There may have been some alcohol involved. NSFW language somewhat.

Anyway, I recorded some of the attempts and made a compilation.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 06-29-2013 at 08:26 AM.
  #165  
Old 06-29-2013, 08:42 AM
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Where the hell are the FINS? I only see huge wings and canards. Little fins? Gimme some!
  #166  
Old 06-29-2013, 10:30 AM
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I put a satellite in a nice polar orbit around Duna. Unless I figure out how to get there a lot more efficiently it's going to take a fuckshitload of fuel for me to put a dude on the surface and bring him back. Need to get better at orbital maneuvers. Maybe read a wiki or something.
  #167  
Old 06-29-2013, 01:54 PM
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Well, I got a Kerbal into a sustainable, multi-circuit orbit and got him back alive using rocket power. I can go to sleep now.
I still have trouble with getting into a stable orbit on every launch. Now that you have done a successful orbit, it won't be too long before your first fly-by of Mun and then a landing. Now that I have done that I am watching videos to learn some more advanced concepts. A space docking is my next goal as a stepping stone for a flight to Eve or Duna. Although I suppose I should aim for Ike.

And do be careful of the time you spend in the game. The second night I was playing it the clock went from 11:00 PM to 5:00 AM in about half an hour.

ETA: At some point I also want to try my hand a building a space station. Hopefully there is a Kerban (?) named Chris that I can then leave in command of the station.

Last edited by Ike Witt; 06-29-2013 at 01:58 PM.
  #168  
Old 06-29-2013, 02:18 PM
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Reentry works fine. The biggest problem with it is that the Kerbal throws off the balance of the thing, so you need to compensate.

I'll get back to you - at the moment I still don't have a way to get to the Mun and back that I'm happy with, so it might take some time to get my designs finalised.
Things I have seen and read seem to think that re-entry will be made a bit more realistic in some future update, then it will be dicey .

I am pretty happy with my design for Mun and Minmus transit, it is getting stuff to other planets that I am interested in. That and rovers. I have no idea how to design or transport a rover.


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Anyway, I recorded some of the attempts and made a compilation.
That is some funny stuff.
  #169  
Old 06-29-2013, 05:25 PM
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I'm traveling right now, but when I get home, I'll share my rover design. There's a screenshot of it upthread, but I'll explain what I did in more detail later.

An easy planet to get a remotely controlled rover to is Eve, because you can deploy a parachute. Otherwise I'd use a lander designed somewhat like my Minmus lander on the upthread screenshot, mounting the rover under the lander and landing using the four radial engines. You can then fire a small decoupler and drive away.

Last edited by Knorf; 06-29-2013 at 05:28 PM.
  #170  
Old 06-29-2013, 10:04 PM
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Here's a rover transport method I like to use.

Basically, the rover is attached in the front and back to the rockets on each side of the upper stage via radial decouplers. Once it lands and those decouplers are released, the rover drops a very short distance and sepratrons push the two rockets away. The rover is left sitting on the surface.

I think this style does tend towards less efficient designs, though. For example, I've got 6 nuclear engines in the middle stage. Also, I'm pretty sure it won't work too well once the aerodynamic effects are reworked. But at least for now, this design makes an easy landing on Duna and going further is mostly a matter of building up the bottom stage.
  #171  
Old 06-30-2013, 06:36 AM
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Here's my rover trike. It's balanced radially despite the unusual design, so I can put it and the delivery module on top of a conventional rocket instead of something like Mithras's. It has a computer brain, two seats for passengers and two reusable docking ports, meaning I have the option of refuelling the delivery module and lifting off with the rover, if I so choose.

I have successfully delivered one to the Mun so far, but it was destroyed when I couldn't find the handbrake.

Last edited by Grumman; 06-30-2013 at 06:37 AM.
  #172  
Old 06-30-2013, 09:12 AM
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I just sent another, and this time I put the handbrake on. And here is the rocket that got it there. Both the descent stage and the orbit to orbit stage still had plenty of fuel left, so the vehicle should work for other celestial bodies too.
  #173  
Old 06-30-2013, 10:18 AM
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It seems I have no creativity. I look at the things you guys and others have designed an built and my rockets look so vanilla in comparison.
  #174  
Old 06-30-2013, 10:33 AM
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No kidding. My creations are pretty standard.

That said, I'll tell you, you learn about physics playing this game. It should be introduced to high schools. A huge learning curve in getting your Kerbals into orbit is just the fact that you don't fly a rocket like you think you should. I found it remarkably counterintuitive to realize that although the atmosphere ends at 70,000 metres, I didn't have to shoot up like - well, like a rocket - for 70,000 metres. In practice I'm actually levelling out at like half of that, maybe 40K, because there's still so much momentum carrying the ship up after I dump whatever terrifyingly dangerous booster got the ship that far - indeed, I often find myself pointing the nose BELOW the horizon while I'm still not quite high enough, which I find absolutely freaky. It doesn't LOOK like it should work, and yet it does, because it's not like flying a plane in a video game.

Alright, so I can get Bob Kerman into orbit. With a tiny bit more design work, I can probably get him up there with lots of extra liquid fuel on a remaining engine. How do I shoot him to Mun and let him check the place out - not land on it, just see it - and get him home safe? I've set it as a target and the game helpfully puts two dotted lines to Mun's orbit but what does that mean?
  #175  
Old 06-30-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
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It seems I have no creativity. I look at the things you guys and others have designed an built and my rockets look so vanilla in comparison.


Well, how do you go about building them? If you chiefly copy real life, that could be the issue. It's a reliable, safe way to get alright rockets but they will tend to be rather orthodox.

I start by asking myself what I want to do. That usually gives me information about the last stage. Then I work my way back to the penultimate stage and then the antepenultimate stage and so on until I'm figuring how I'll launch from Kerbin. Throughout that process, I ask myself only what is the most efficient way to accomplish the goal while trying to presume as little as possible concerning what it ought to have. I never tell myself "Of course spacecraft have this so I better do it that way".

Aside from some kind of command module, none of the pieces are parts you ought to use and none of them are parts you ought not use. They are just means which are more or less efficient according to your ends and circumstances. The fascinating aspect of the vehicle builder lies in figuring that out.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-30-2013 at 10:43 AM.
  #176  
Old 06-30-2013, 11:12 AM
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Alright, so I can get Bob Kerman into orbit. With a tiny bit more design work, I can probably get him up there with lots of extra liquid fuel on a remaining engine. How do I shoot him to Mun and let him check the place out - not land on it, just see it - and get him home safe? I've set it as a target and the game helpfully puts two dotted lines to Mun's orbit but what does that mean?
I recommend that you look up Scott Manley on Youtube - this video is a good tutorial on how to get from orbit to Minmus (Mun's little brother).
  #177  
Old 06-30-2013, 11:21 AM
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Alright, so I can get Bob Kerman into orbit. With a tiny bit more design work, I can probably get him up there with lots of extra liquid fuel on a remaining engine. How do I shoot him to Mun and let him check the place out - not land on it, just see it - and get him home safe? I've set it as a target and the game helpfully puts two dotted lines to Mun's orbit but what does that mean?
The 2 dotted lines are for determining if you are on the same plane as the Mun. Have you figured out the maneuver nodes yet? When you set a node it gives you options for changing course. Set the node and pull out the prograde icon and the orange circle (orbit at the end of the burn) will expand. You can move the node around until you see an encounter with the Mun. You may get a purple circle which would indicate your orbit after the Mun encounter... If you can't get an encounter you may be off the plane enough that you need you use the ascending or decending node to set a burn to match planes. It takes a bit of practice. Just remember to F5 once you are in a good orbit so you can keep trying for the encounter. And do what I did, put on Pink Floyd and marvel at how addictive this game is.

Last edited by Ike Witt; 06-30-2013 at 11:21 AM.
  #178  
Old 06-30-2013, 12:47 PM
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Here's my latest contraption: the orbital delivery system for a sixteen ton section of space station. It features six dual jet engines that slowly lift it to 10 kilometres above sea level, where they are jettisoned and the seven rocket engines take over. The module itself has space for ten Kerbals and three large docking ports - one of which will be occupied by the Escape Module Module I posted earlier.
  #179  
Old 06-30-2013, 02:09 PM
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It seems I have no creativity. I look at the things you guys and others have designed an built and my rockets look so vanilla in comparison.
I wouldn't get too excited about the unorthodox designs you see. An upcoming patch is likely to correct the current model for atmospheric drag, and then those designs will have many problems.

Anyway, I myself have been deliberately not exploiting the weaknesses in the drag model, for the sake of realism.

In other news, here is my small, unmanned rover model (with labels!) sitting on the planet Eve.
And here is a picture of it mounted on a rocket, ready for lunch to the planet Eve. Note that this vehicle is a bit overbuilt for that purpose; I ended up with way more fuel than I needed on my Eve rover mission. But it should be able to get me to any planet in the Kerbol system.

Two things immediately leap to mind:

One, that successfully deploying this rover as mounted requires an atmosphere in which parachutes are effective. That pretty much means Eve (Duna's air is too thin; you'd need some engines to help slow the descent). But you could mount it easily under a lander, using four-radially mounted engines to descend onto some rocky ball with no atmosphere. Simply replace the parachute with a TR-2C Stack Separator. Separate the rover, drive away.

Two, that when the atmospheric drag model is updated, I'll need some sort of fairings. One hopes the developers will add fairings at the same time as they add drag updates, and they are indeed listed under "Planned features."

Last edited by Knorf; 06-30-2013 at 02:11 PM. Reason: always typos
  #180  
Old 06-30-2013, 09:00 PM
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I'd like to second Witt's suggestion of Pink Floyd. I'd also like to add Strauss' The blue Danube waltz.

Daft Punk seems to be custom-made for this game, just turn down your in-game music and listen to these while playing:

Building phase: Harder, better, faster, stronger
Launch: Aerodynamic
Kerbin orbit: Around the world
Acceleration in space: Burnin'
Outside Kerbin orbit: Voyager
Using solar panels and the Xenon engine: Solar sailor
Gravity turns: Fall
Exploring other planets: Outlands
Using a rover on another planet: Robot rock

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-30-2013 at 09:01 PM.
  #181  
Old 07-01-2013, 01:38 AM
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I found it remarkably counterintuitive to realize that although the atmosphere ends at 70,000 metres, I didn't have to shoot up like - well, like a rocket - for 70,000 metres. In practice I'm actually levelling out at like half of that, maybe 40K...
You should start your gravity turn at around 10k.

Really.
  #182  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:52 AM
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About what angle at what height is ideal for getting into orbit? I mean, at 10k, do you go into about a 45 degree vertical inclination, or do you turn harder than that? At what height do you start going 90 degrees/horizontal?
  #183  
Old 07-01-2013, 08:11 AM
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Mechanical Jeb considers something like this path optimal:
http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergal...creenshot3.jpg
As you can see, the turns is gradual. The altitude and angle curve looks like the velocity curve of a bullet when it's picking speed inside a barrel.


Mech Jeb is arguably the best mod out there. The orbital information and surface information tabs are quite useful.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:35 AM
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You should start your gravity turn at around 10k.

Really.
Sure, I'm pitching by 10K. But I'm levelled out at like 40-45K.
  #185  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:03 AM
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So I started using mechanical jeb and on my first auto-ascent, it starts the gravity turn at 10k, but it flips the entire vessel like a cartwheel before coming back to the angle you'd expect. Does that mean my vessel simply doesn't have enough control? (I've got it into orbit manually without cartwheeling it) or is something else at work?
  #186  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:33 AM
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I'm not using any add-ons, so I can't help you there.
  #187  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:05 AM
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Mech Jeb is arguably the best mod out there. The orbital information and surface information tabs are quite useful.
I've just started messing with it this morning. Holy cow, it is showing me how overbuilt my designs are. My designs were letting my crappy flying get to Mun. With MechJeb I can maybe get to Duna.

ETA: Happy to report that the Kerbalverse did not end when Jebediah oversaw the first test flight of MechJeb.

Last edited by Ike Witt; 07-01-2013 at 10:07 AM.
  #188  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:38 AM
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Hmmm ... maybe I should reconsider the whole add-on thing. MechJeb does seem pretty useful, and I feel I can argue that I've accomplished plenty already with the stock game...

Computer-aided guidance doesn't break realism, right?
  #189  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:43 AM
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MechJeb is cool even if you never use any of the automated features just because of the extra information it gives you. I like to have a loaded HUD with all kinds of data.
  #190  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:52 AM
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Computer-aided guidance doesn't break realism, right?
Not Really and you can turn it off or override it at any time. And so far I haven't done anything with it that I haven't done myself. I will try manual docking so I know I can do it, but automating it will help build a space station.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:32 PM
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MechJeb 2 enables you to customize your HUD to show the information you want in the order you want.

This is what it enables you to know at a glance:
http://wiki.mechjeb.com/index.php?ti...Custom_Windows
  #192  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:06 PM
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I haven't played video games (is that even the right term?) in ages but after reading this thread, I HAVE to try this.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:53 PM
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Okay. I downloaded the free version. Right from the start it seems buggy. I started with the training module. Werner Von what's his name was telling me to choose a command module from a list but all I could see was an image of one type of command module on the upper left and I couldn't find any way to display a list. While trying to display a list I somehow accidentally chose the one displayed and Werner said something (I forget the exact words) that led me to believe that I have made a poor choice. So I tried to use the reset button on the bottom right, but it wouldn't respond. There didn't seem to be any other to undo my choice or backup so I ended up using task manager to kill it.

I'm disappointed. It looks like it would be fun.

Is it something I'm doing wrong or is it just buggy?
  #194  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:58 PM
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I think the demo is a much earlier version which may be bugger, I don't know for sure.

As far as selecting components - there are several tabs, command modules, propulsion, control, structure, etc. There are command modules on the first tab, and you should see a list like on the left side here. One of those should say command module - there may be several. Cockpit you don't want because that's for space planes, if that's even in that version.

I'm not really sure how the demo or instruction goes though. You can probably skip it and just start putting parts together.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 07-01-2013 at 09:59 PM.
  #195  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:00 PM
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This movie looks fantastic. Gravity.

Sort of a regular day with the KSP.

Last edited by Ike Witt; 07-01-2013 at 10:00 PM.
  #196  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I think the demo is a much earlier version which may be bugger, I don't know for sure.

As far as selecting components - there are several tabs, command modules, propulsion, control, structure, etc. There are command modules on the first tab, and you should see a list like on the left side here. One of those should say command module - there may be several. Cockpit you don't want because that's for space planes, if that's even in that version.

I'm not really sure how the demo or instruction goes though. You can probably skip it and just start putting parts together.
I don't see anything like that picture. I don't want to spend any money until I know that it will work for me.
  #197  
Old 07-01-2013, 10:15 PM
PacifistPorcupine is offline
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So my current goal is a space station, made up of 4 pieces. That means 3 dockings, which are extremely hard if you don't look up how to do them. After several hours of bumbling around I read an idiot's guide and voila!
Step 1
Step 2

Step 3 will be crew quarters, made up of a command module and some of the hitchhiker storage containers. Step 4 will be a fuel depot, made up of one of the big orange fuel tanks and whatever else I think to stick on it. Then I'll design a small refueling ship and a small crew transport, sort of like a Progress and Soyuz.
  #198  
Old 07-02-2013, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Is it something I'm doing wrong or is it just buggy?
That's not a bug. You're in the tutorial in the demo - that's why there's only one command module to choose, and why it doesn't want you going backwards after making the right choice.
  #199  
Old 07-02-2013, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
That's not a bug. You're in the tutorial in the demo - that's why there's only one command module to choose, and why it doesn't want you going backwards after making the right choice.
Ah. Then maybe they shouldn't have Werner making discouraging remarks about your choice. I think that's what threw me.

I'll probably work my way through the tutorial then and see what it's like.
  #200  
Old 07-03-2013, 11:07 PM
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Now that I've got a hundred ton rocket with a twenty ton payload to orbit, I'm going to try to use a trio of these to lift an entire space station to orbit in one go.
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