#1451  
Old 07-19-2018, 09:44 AM
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Robbery and drug possession are not violent crimes.
Actually, robbery is a violent crime, by definition. ("The offense of taking or attempting to take the property of another by force or threat of force.") If Defoe's previous criminal history only included stuff like shoplifting, then that news story erred in saying he had a previous criminal history that included "robbery"; IF Defoe had only previously done things like shoplift, they should have said "larceny".

I do not think the store owner was in the right here; doing something like taking down the license plate of the thief's car and reporting it to the police would be perfectly fine. I would even say it's acceptable for the store owner to run outside and say "Hey, man, you have to pay for that!" But opening fire on someone who is merely trying to flee after the theft of property is not morally or legally right. However frustrating it may be to have people steal stuff from your store, the store owner is now correctly facing serious criminal charges. This story should never have been posted in a thread on "Positive Gun News"--of course, the person who posted it to this thread is pretty clearly on record as not actually being a big fan of gun rights.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:45 PM
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Shop lifting DOES NOT call for lethal force. Period.

What that business owner did is completely unacceptable and he deserves whatever prison time a judge awards.

This is exactly the type of case that the anti-gun lobby will use to further their agenda.

Last edited by aceplace57; 07-19-2018 at 07:46 PM.
  #1453  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:14 AM
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Homeowner saves wife and protects home.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...1.html%3famp=y
Quote:
Police say a Houston man shot one of two would-be home intruders who grabbed his wife's purse in the driveway of their home and were trying to force her inside.

Police Lt. Larry Crowson said the man witnessed the attack Tuesday night and grabbed his gun. Police say the men were holding the woman at gunpoint.

The husband confronted the men outside as they tried to push and drag his wife into the house.

There was an exchange of gunfire and one of the suspects was shot in the head. 
  #1454  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:01 PM
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That suspect needed to run into an armed husband like he needed a hole in his head.
  #1455  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:30 PM
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That suspect needed to run into an armed husband like he needed a hole in his head.
Bad taste, but funny as hell.

I wonder how rescued wives deal with having hubby kill someone in front of their eyes. I think if I had taken my Wife to work the morning the guy tried to rob her shot him, I'd have to buy another car for her. I imagine that if I shot an intruder we'd have to buy another house.
  #1456  
Old 07-21-2018, 01:25 AM
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Bad taste, but funny as hell.
<clipped>
What can I say, I took a shot
  #1457  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:25 PM
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Spree shooter killed in DGU

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-...after-shooting
  #1458  
Old 07-21-2018, 03:00 PM
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I hope the store owner fully recovers. Good defensive firearm use.
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Old 07-21-2018, 03:07 PM
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I hope the store owner fully recovers. Good defensive firearm use.
Even though they didn't have guns, I hope the other victims of the shooting spree recover as well.

Well, the one that was not killed.
  #1460  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:01 PM
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New Zealand Man Shot While Breaking Into VA Home
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A New Zealand man who was shot while breaking into a woman’s Goochland County home had met her 14-year-old daughter online and suddenly arrived uninvited after methodically planning his trip to the U.S., Goochland’s sheriff said Monday.
Just so much what-the-fucking-hell in this article. This could have been a much different story if the mother had not been armed. There's a fair chance that he outweighed any two of the occupants before you consider that he had pepper spray.

If you have kids into online gaming you should share this article with them to demonstrate the danger of sharing any personal information. Or any sort of online social application really.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:13 AM
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The NRA Says It’s in Deep Financial Trouble, May Be ‘Unable to Exist’

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In the new document — an amended complaint filed in U.S. District Court in late July — the NRA says it cannot access financial services essential to its operations and is facing “irrecoverable loss and irreparable harm.”

Specifically, the NRA warns that it has lost insurance coverage — endangering day-to-day operations. “Insurance coverage is necessary for the NRA to continue its existence,” the complaint reads. Without general liability coverage, it adds, the “NRA cannot maintain its physical premises, convene off-site meetings and events, operate educational programs … or hold rallies, conventions and assemblies.”

...

The NRA claims it “has encountered serious difficulties obtaining corporate insurance coverage to replace coverage withdrawn.” In addition, the NRA contends that “multiple banks” have now balked at doing business with it “based on concerns that any involvement with the NRA — even providing the organization with basic depository services —would expose them to regulatory reprisals.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...rouble-706371/
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:17 AM
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:32 AM
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In other news, Police: Armed bystander takes down gunman at Titusville back-to-school event:

Quote:
The shooting occurred at Isaac Campbell Park on South Street shortly after 5:20 p.m. when the shooter, whom police have not identified, returned to the park after a fistfight and began firing, investigators said.

A bystander, who was licensed to a carry a firearm, shot the gunman, police said. He was taken to a hospital with life-threatening injuries, police said.
DGU with no deaths. A person came to a back to school event where kids were gathering school supplies and started shooting. A vendor on site quickly engaged the shooter and stopped him with his carry firearm. What could have been so much worse was ended quickly on site with only the attacker being injured.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:03 AM
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A classic example of defensive gun use that averted a tragedy.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:21 AM
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A classic example of defensive gun use that averted a tragedy.
Absolutely. Several or many lives were likely saved. And how much coverage was the story given on CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, WaPost, etc.? Not much, from my quick review. It simply doesn't fit their agenda.
  #1466  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:43 AM
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Absolutely. Several or many lives were likely saved. And how much coverage was the story given on CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, WaPost, etc.? Not much, from my quick review. It simply doesn't fit their agenda.
There are over 13,000 gun homicides in the US each year and maybe twice that many non-fatal shootings. So, yeah, they are not all reported by CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, WaPost, etc., because if they did there would be nothing on the news but shootings, and individually they are not of national interest. It has nothing to do with an agenda. When you have 66 shootings in one city in one weekend (Chicago), that tends to make national news.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:01 PM
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There are over 13,000 gun homicides in the US each year and maybe twice that many non-fatal shootings. So, yeah, they are not all reported by CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, WaPost, etc., because if they did there would be nothing on the news but shootings, and individually they are not of national interest. It has nothing to do with an agenda. When you have 66 shootings in one city in one weekend (Chicago), that tends to make national news.
I'd be very surprised if it were only 2x the number of non-fatal shootings. Most firearms shootings are inflicted with handguns, and the vast majority of people shot with a handgun live. Last I'd heard, it was 5 out of 6 live, it may be up to 6 out of 7. Handguns just aren't a very effective way of killing people, who don't want to die. I.e., their efficacy is higher when used in suicide.

(After a few seconds with CDC's WISQARS data tool. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html)

For 2016, the CDC lists, for "Overall Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000. 2016, United States, All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages. Disposition: All Cases:"

116,416 nonfatal injuries from a firearm. Not counting BB guns. (They have their own separate header in the database.) Out of a population of 323,127,513

Same database, but for firearms deaths for 2016, which includes accidents, suicides, crime, lawful self-defense, lawful homicide by a peace officer, etc... 38,658.

More than I would have thought, especially compared to firearms injuries. Very surprising, I would have thought the injuries would be more than 3x the deaths. I wonder how the stats look when suicide is removed?
  #1468  
Old 08-07-2018, 01:01 PM
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I'd be very surprised if it were only 2x the number of non-fatal shootings.
My only point here was not to dramatize the statistics but rather to say that the press is not trying to suppress news of DGUs any more than they suppress news of OGUs. There is just not enough bandwidth or audience interest to report on individual cases.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:38 PM
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My only point here was not to dramatize the statistics but rather to say that the press is not trying to suppress news of DGUs any more than they suppress news of OGUs. There is just not enough bandwidth or audience interest to report on individual cases.
So you think that a guy who returns to a back-to-school event in a public park, a place packed with kids, and starts shooting into the crowd, is a routine individual case that goes below the fold on page 10?

You think the fact that a person who is legally carrying stops him with no innocent loss of life, is of little audience interest, easily overlooked?

Yeah, that's what it is, I'm sure. No anti-gun agenda at play at all.
  #1470  
Old 09-17-2018, 09:53 PM
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Man goes behind counter to assault female employee. Female coworker has CCW permit. (with video)

The man punches the first woman in the head/face and her coworker draws her weapon on him. He decides he would be better off going somewhere else.
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  #1471  
Old 09-18-2018, 08:41 AM
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Seems like negative news to me. If they were so afraid for their life that they pulled a gun, why didn't they shoot the guy?
  #1472  
Old 09-18-2018, 10:00 AM
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The threat was sufficient in itself so it's actually positive on two points. They were able to defend themselves and they didn't have to shoot the man that looks like he weighed as much as both of them put together.

Are you going to pretend you don't believe that wouldn't have had a much worse ending for the women if one of them wasn't armed?
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:36 AM
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I'm sure the ending would have been the same if the woman had a taser, or a large can of mace.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:51 AM
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She would have been entirely justified in shooting the SOB. But pulling the gun was enough to stop the attack, which is consistent with the fact that guns are most often used to stop crimes with no shots fired. The linked article doesn't mention that the man was arrested, though the video is plenty clear enough to identify him. Good defensive gun use.
  #1475  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:21 AM
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[...]guns are most often used to stop crimes with no shots fired.
Where can I find the data on this?
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  #1476  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:23 PM
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The linked article doesn't mention that the man was arrested, though the video is plenty clear enough to identify him. Good defensive gun use.
I read in a different article where the man is a known drug dealer and the police were looking for him.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:12 PM
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Where can I find the data on this?
You're not going to like it, and there are a LOT of holes in the methodology, but start with the research of John Lott on "Defensive Gun Uses." (DGU for short)

The term Defensive Gun Use is really elastic, and one may even not have a gun for an encounter to count as one. I've personally, when walking through a shitty area at night, placed my left hand behind my hip and acted like I was trying to gain a grip on a pistol carried in my waistband. The two guys who were really interested in me, by walking to intercept me, got really interested after I did that in returning to the convenience store they were loitering in front of. I didn't have a gun. I tried really hard though to make it look like I had one, short of drawing. Does it count as a DGU?
  #1478  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:36 PM
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You're not going to like it, and there are a LOT of holes in the methodology, but start with the research of John Lott on "Defensive Gun Uses." (DGU for short)
I have heard a lot of claims by both sides and I think there is a lot of fudging data to prove whatever you set out to prove.

Quote:
The two guys who were really interested in me, by walking to intercept me, got really interested after I did that in returning to the convenience store they were loitering in front of. I didn't have a gun. I tried really hard though to make it look like I had one, short of drawing. Does it count as a DGU?
There is not enough information in that anecdote but there are a lot of assumptions baked in there and I don't think it is conclusively a case of "guns...used to stop crimes with no shots fired." You may have defused a potential situation by bluffing, but there was no imminent crime (that is, if a policeman had seen their behavior there would have been no basis for arrest). And I could list a bunch of "what ifs" for that situation but it would not be helpful and I would just be guessing.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:50 PM
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I have heard a lot of claims by both sides and I think there is a lot of fudging data to prove whatever you set out to prove.

There is not enough information in that anecdote but there are a lot of assumptions baked in there and I don't think it is conclusively a case of "guns...used to stop crimes with no shots fired." You may have defused a potential situation by bluffing, but there was no imminent crime (that is, if a policeman had seen their behavior there would have been no basis for arrest). And I could list a bunch of "what ifs" for that situation but it would not be helpful and I would just be guessing.
Sure a cop could have. How many cops do you know? The ones I know, if sufficiently motivated, could have turned it into a, "Hi! How's it going? No, no, take your hands out of your pockets. Got any ID for me? That isn't alcohol in those bags, is it?" And so on. It's a basis for an interview, which based on what s/he finds out (mainly, do they already have warrants out or not, or easy contraband on them) may lead to PC for an arrest.

I relate the anecdote, (And reiterate that, if they didn't have any intent of meeting me, why get up off their ass and away from the convenience store to walk towards me? Bums are lazy, which is a reason they're bums.), to point out that statistics that try to measure things like DGUs are going to be fuzzy as hell. And mainly will serve to preach to the converted.

Lott's DGUs that he used for his papers, AIUI, are a bit more firmly grounded than my anecdote.
  #1480  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:28 PM
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I'm sure the ending would have been the same if the woman had a taser, or a large can of mace.
And I'm sure the ending would have been the same if she had had a broadsword or a mace.

But she had a gun and the premise of the thread is positive gun news. A bad situation didn't get worse because one of the victims was prepared to not be a victim.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:37 PM
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I, for one, look forward to the "Positive Broadsword News of the Day" thread.
  #1482  
Old 09-18-2018, 05:01 PM
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Kleck's high number of DGU is 1/2 million to 3 million.
NCVS is 108,000
Can have ideological/methodological concerns about either (the latter is self-report), but those give high and low points. Either way, many more than are used for illegal purposes.
  #1483  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:11 AM
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In other news, Police: Armed bystander takes down gunman at Titusville back-to-school event:


DGU with no deaths. A person came to a back to school event where kids were gathering school supplies and started shooting. A vendor on site quickly engaged the shooter and stopped him with his carry firearm. What could have been so much worse was ended quickly on site with only the attacker being injured.
It's like saying lucky he had a tiger to protect us from the other guys with tigers out there. It's very easy to be unimpressed.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:44 AM
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It's the vagueness of the definition of DGU that makes the statistics all but useless. On one end you have normal people facing very real threats and using their guns to either defend themselves or to drive away their attackers. On the other end you have people who whip out their gun anytime someone looks at them funny and claim the fact that the other person ran away when faced with an unstable idiot with a gun counts as a DGU. Somewhere in the middle you have people who avert threats merely by having a visible gun, and people who escalate situations which could have been solved peacefully but now can't be (just because they have a gun), and all other sorts of cases. It's not easy to count without some clearly defined criteria and reliable reporting, and we've got neither.

I keep thinking back to that story of the 14-year-old kid who got lost on the way to school, rang a stranger's doorbell to ask directions and was nearly shot by a crazy couple who claimed he was "breaking in". The kid was lucky because 1) the gun jammed and 2) the couple had a special doorbell that recorded the event. But I wonder what would have happened if the gun hadn't jammed and the incident hadn't been recorded (both of which are more probable than what actually happened). We'd have a dead 14-year-old black kid and the word of two people that they had shot someone attempting to break into their home. Clear DGU, right? And we'd have people here claiming that obviously the kid shouldn't have been there (why wasn't he at school?) and how stupid he was for trying to break into someone's house in broad daylight, and how the homeowners were just protecting themselves from an obvious threat. Tell me I'm wrong.

So yeah. DGU. It's a puzzlement.
  #1485  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:48 AM
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I keep thinking back to that story of the 14-year-old kid who got lost on the way to school, rang a stranger's doorbell to ask directions and was nearly shot by a crazy couple who claimed he was "breaking in".
I am not familiar with that story but I am familiar with a story of DGU where an intruder broke into a house in broad daylight. The homeowner shot and killed the intruder. It's unfortunate that there was a death, but the homeowner successfully used a firearm to protect his family. Oh, and the intruder was his own 14-year-old son.
  #1486  
Old 09-19-2018, 08:15 AM
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It's like saying lucky he had a tiger to protect us from the other guys with tigers out there. It's very easy to be unimpressed.
I have no idea what you mean.

It was not "lucky" that the armed bystander likely saved numerous lives. Luck involves happenstance and random results. This person was thankfully carrying a gun to protect himself and others. It was fortunate , not lucky, that someone was armed and willing to stop a mass murder event. Whether or not you are impressed is irrelevant. This was an unequivocal good response to a reckless/crazed/evil (take your pick) murderer.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:11 AM
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I have no idea what you mean.

It was not "lucky" that the armed bystander likely saved numerous lives. Luck involves happenstance and random results. This person was thankfully carrying a gun to protect himself and others. It was fortunate , not lucky, that someone was armed and willing to stop a mass murder event. Whether or not you are impressed is irrelevant. This was an unequivocal good response to a reckless/crazed/evil (take your pick) murderer.
It was fortunate in the same way that it is "unfortunate" that so many of these reckless/crazed/evil shooters have easy access to guns in the first place. Which I'm guessing is what the 'tiger' comment was about; to wit: if the bad guy hadn't had a gun/tiger in the first place, there would be no need for a good guy with a gun/tiger.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:52 AM
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I have no idea what you mean.

It was not "lucky" that the armed bystander likely saved numerous lives. Luck involves happenstance and random results. This person was thankfully carrying a gun to protect himself and others. It was fortunate , not lucky, that someone was armed and willing to stop a mass murder event. Whether or not you are impressed is irrelevant. This was an unequivocal good response to a reckless/crazed/evil (take your pick) murderer.
There is no proof that the armed bystander saved anyone's lives, but there is proof that he killed someone. You called the person he killed a murderer. Who did he murder?
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:27 AM
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There is no proof that the armed bystander saved anyone's lives, but there is proof that he killed someone. You called the person he killed a murderer. Who did he murder?
From the linked article:

Quote:
An armed bystander shot a man who opened fire on a back-to-school event at a Titusville park after a fistfight, police said.

The shooting occurred at Isaac Campbell Park on South Street shortly after 5:20 p.m. when the shooter, whom police have not identified, returned to the park after a fistfight and began firing, investigators said.

“We are extremely grateful that nobody else was injured in this incident,” said Deputy Chief Todd Hutchinson. “This suspect opened fire at a crowded public park, this could have been so much worse."
I should have written "would-be murderer", but it's hardly a stretch to say that the bystander saved many innocent lives. It was a school-related event with many children. I can't imagine being so pedantic, cavalier and obtuse to argue otherwise. But go ahead, if you wish.
  #1490  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:45 PM
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Man goes behind counter to assault female employee. Female coworker has CCW permit. (with video)

The man punches the first woman in the head/face and her coworker draws her weapon on him. He decides he would be better off going somewhere else.
Followup. Milwaukee man charged in George Webb attack complained of food taking too long, denied refund, prosecutors say

Quote:
When Raphael C. Calhoun Jr. was refused a refund, he went into the kitchen, went up to a female employee and punched her in the face, the criminal complaint says.

Calhoun, 28, was charged with substantial battery, a felony, in the June 29 attack on the restaurant employee
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:59 PM
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Did you hear the one about the Dallas cop who defended herself from the black man in her apartment?

Oh, wait... Never mind...
  #1492  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:20 PM
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Did you hear the one about the Dallas cop who defended herself from the black man in her apartment?

Oh, wait... Never mind...
The post above yours shows a woman pointing a pistol at a guy after he hit another woman in the face.
  #1493  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:20 AM
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...even providing the organization with basic depository services —would expose them to regulatory reprisals.

WHAT???? is the NRA outlawed in some parts of the US?

Last edited by Sloe Moe; 09-25-2018 at 04:21 AM.
  #1494  
Old 09-25-2018, 06:24 AM
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Don’t threadshit. There are plenty of other threads to discuss that incident. You don’t need to bring it up here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JB99 View Post
Did you hear the one about the Dallas cop who defended herself from the black man in her apartment?

Oh, wait... Never mind...
  #1495  
Old 11-04-2018, 01:34 PM
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It's six in the morning and 3 men are breaking into the house.

There's very little time to react. That's why it's so important to have all the doors locked. These men went to all her doors. She could have men rushing her from several directions.

This is why my wife & I go to the range every few weeks. Criminals don't care if a home is occupied. They'll break in anyways and harm whoever is there.

The men were found and charged.

https://www.foxcarolina.com/investig...50c8037e6.html
Quote:
No one answered her, but she heard people speaking in front of the house. Next, Jones said she called 911 and grabbed her gun.

As she walked downstairs with the gun,she saw a strange man in a red shirt knocking on her window by the front door.

“I yelled,  'I have a gun, I will shoot you, get away from my house,'” Jones said.

She said the man and a second person then went to the back of the house and tried to enter through the back door. Then, they went to the garage before coming back to the front door.

That's when Jones said the man kicked in the front door, and she pulled the trigger. She said the bullet hit the man, and he ran off.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-04-2018 at 01:38 PM.
  #1496  
Old 11-04-2018, 01:43 PM
aceplace57 is offline
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**2 criminals**

She's a mom with three kids. Got my numbers turned around.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-04-2018 at 01:44 PM.
  #1497  
Old 11-05-2018, 08:50 AM
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Seems like running and screaming out the back door while the people were at the front door would be a safer action.
  #1498  
Old 11-05-2018, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Seems like running and screaming out the back door while the people were at the front door would be a safer action.
Not necessarily when there's multiple intruders. And it would mean opening the door yourself, not knowing if there was someone waiting to either come in or grab you.
  #1499  
Old 11-05-2018, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Seems like running and screaming out the back door while the people were at the front door would be a safer action.
Safer? She heard "people" talking outside her house. How would she know how many, and whether or not any were at her back door?

And the article says she has three children. Not sure of their ages, but she's supposed to run and protect three children at the same time?

She called 911, and she didn't shoot through any doors or windows. She waited until they kicked in a door. Seems to me to be a textbook example of protecting her family with a firearm.
  #1500  
Old 11-05-2018, 10:30 AM
JRDelirious is online now
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Positive Gun News of the Day


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
She called 911, and she didn't shoot through any doors or windows. She waited until they kicked in a door. Seems to me to be a textbook example of protecting her family with a firearm.


Yep, this one sure sounds like doing it right to me.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 11-05-2018 at 10:31 AM.
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