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  #2601  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:46 PM
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Is it Pence yet?
  #2602  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:52 PM
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Amy Fiscus, NYTimes:
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NEW: Rudy Giuliani is under investigation over whether he broke foreign lobbying laws in his work with Ukraine
  #2603  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:26 PM
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Remember the scene in Hunt for Red October where the Soviet ambassador is chided for losing another submarine?

I keep thinking about that each time a Trump confident ends up in criminal investigations. ďAre you serious? Another one?Ē
  #2604  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Amy Fiscus, NYTimes:

Quote:
NEW: Rudy Giuliani is under investigation over whether he broke foreign lobbying laws in his work with Ukraine
The article linked above says:
Quote:
Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani broke lobbying laws in his dealings in Ukraine, according to two people familiar with the inquiry.
[Bolding mine]

Don't those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they "allowed"* to do this? I should understand this but I don't.




*It wouldn't be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 10-11-2019 at 09:27 PM. Reason: shits, giggles, uncontrollable apathy
  #2605  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:37 PM
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The article linked above says:[Bolding mine]

Don't those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they "allowed"* to do this? I should understand this but I don't.




*It wouldn't be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don
My first gut reaction is that they're maybe trying to go with the "it was all Rudy, he went rogue" defense. We've all been waiting at the bus stop to see when he'd be thrown under...
  #2606  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
<snip>

Don't those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they "allowed"* to do this? I should understand this but I don't.
US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller's findings/report. IOW, he's skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too -- and have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
*It wouldn't be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don
He does, but not for nothing is the Southern District of New York known and referred to as the Sovereign District of New York. They pride themselves on their independence. I was leery of Berman when he was first appointed to replace Preet Bahrara. I felt mildly better when Berman recused himself from overseeing the Michael Cohen investigation. He seems committed to preserving the integrity of SDNY. I do hope that is the case.
  #2607  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller's findings/report. IOW, he's skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too -- and have.



He does, but not for nothing is the Southern District of New York known and referred to as the Sovereign District of New York. They pride themselves on their independence. I was leery of Berman when he was first appointed to replace Preet Bahrara. I felt mildly better when Berman recused himself from overseeing the Michael Cohen investigation. He seems committed to preserving the integrity of SDNY. I do hope that is the case.
I always hear this about the SDNY, but is there any special mandate that gives them some degree of freedom from Washington? Sure they're in charge of Wall St and NYC, but that just means they have a bigger staff and budget, right? Is it just a soft power from NYC connections?
  #2608  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:31 PM
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I always hear this about the SDNY, but is there any special mandate that gives them some degree of freedom from Washington? Sure they're in charge of Wall St and NYC, but that just means they have a bigger staff and budget, right? Is it just a soft power from NYC connections?
No specific mandate of which I'm aware.

To my understanding, within the DOJ the SDNY is considered the most prestigious of all the US Attorneys' offices in the country. Merely through an accident of geography, they handle highly visible, high risk/benefit cases. They're tough -- because they have to be. As such, they have more autonomy than some of the other offices, perhaps.

As I understand it, it's a culture and reputation thing. They guard their independence fiercely.

IANAL and I have no first hand knowledge of this beyond being an avid watcher of matters legal. I think there are some Dopers who have more first-hand knowledge of the reasons underlying for their reputation. Perhaps they'll speak up.
  #2609  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:52 PM
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...Talia Lavin, former fact-checker with the New York Times (that nobody has really heard of but is hated and targeted often by the alt-right) apparently got hold of Rudy's cellphone number and has been prank-texting him. The responses (if true of course, the way the world is going right now I can barely trust anyone or anything anymore, but she insists the responses are true) are not what one would expect from the Presidents Lawyer.

https://twitter.com/chick_in_kiev/st...24010981298176

These guys are really not smart. When Michelle Obama said "I have been at G-summits, I have sat in at the UN; they are not that smart" she wasn't joking.
  #2610  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:59 PM
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I follow her on Twitter, but I missed that!
  #2611  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller's findings/report. IOW, he's skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too -- and have.
A few months ago, I listed to Rachel Maddow's podcast series, "Bag Man," about Spiro Agnew, and the investigation that led to his resignation as Vice-President.

The U.S. Attorney for the Maryland District in that era, George Beall, and his office, had been investigating corruption among public officials in Baltimore, and discovered that Agnew (who had, before becoming VP, been a county executive in Baltimore, and then the governor of Maryland) had been taking payoffs.

When Agnew learned that he was a target of Beall's office's investigation, the White House had attempted to force Beall to stop the investigation -- this included asking Beall's brother, J. Glen Beall (then a senator from Maryland) to intervene on Agnew's behalf, as well as sending George H.W. Bush (then the GOP Chairman) to ask Beall to stop. Beall refused to stop, and his office was able to secure a "no contest" plea from Agnew, and force his resignation as VP.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 10-11-2019 at 11:23 PM.
  #2612  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:27 PM
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White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...emocrats-again
  #2613  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:50 PM
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White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...emocrats-again
Not really seeming like an accident at this point. Disgruntled staff.
  #2614  
Old 10-12-2019, 12:30 AM
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White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...emocrats-again
Yeaaaah... if I was a general directing a war against even a very stupid enemy, I would be very suspicious if the enemy's Order of Battle fell out of the blue sky right into my hands not once, but twice.

PsyOps, dudes. Counter-Intelligence. ...and stuff.
  #2615  
Old 10-12-2019, 02:35 AM
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Neal Katyal (Acting Solicitor General under Obama) was on Maddow this evening. After listing some of the recent legal and political setbacks for the malAdministration, he continued thus:
Quote:
Altogether you've got a lot of phenomena, all against the President, and I think it suggests, really, you know, what that great legal scholar Twisted Sister said, "We're not gonna take it anymore."
After I picked myself up off the floor I realized this may be a major factor in the surge of support for impeachment and removal. And barring some major upheaval, it's only going to get worse.
  #2616  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:35 AM
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Could it be? Some good news?

The Conspiracy of Silence Is Cracking
Quote:
What if the White House threw an obstruction party and no one came? Or perhaps more accurately, what if the White House threw an obstruction party and people came anyway?
...

Earlier this week, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone sent a lengthy rant to House Democrats, announcing that the administration would refuse to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. The letter rested largely on political, rather than legal, arguments, but Cipollone also invoked executive privilege to justify preventing executive-branch employees from testifying. It looked a lot like a declaration of constitutional crisis.

As the week closes, however, something strange has happened. The White House hasnít changed its stance, but witnesses employed by the executive branch are coming to testify to House committees anyway. On Friday, Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine who was recalled earlier this year, is giving a transcribed interview behind closed doors over State Department objections. Also on Friday, Gordon Sondland, Trumpís ambassador to the European Union, signaled he would testify as well.

Suddenly the obstruction letter is looking a bit more like a Maginot letter: imposing in theory, impotent in practice. One of the leading narratives of the last three years has been that the guardrails thought to constrain the White House are not enforceable on a president with no shame. Yovanovitch and Sondland are illustrating a corollary: Trumpís insistence that his subordinates answer only to him is also unenforceable. A conspiracy of silence works only if people want to conspire.
....
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  #2617  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:00 AM
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Could it be? Some good news?

The Conspiracy of Silence Is Cracking
I'm wondering whether, and please don't think I'm Nazifying the thread, there'll be consideration of the "I'm just following orders" defense.

Trump is telling his subordinates they're not allowed to talk with Congress. But it looks like this order may itself be illegal. If subordinates follow his order, and thereby defy a legally-issued subpoena from Congress, will they say they were just following orders? Will they be punished anyway?
  #2618  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:13 AM
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I'm wondering whether, and please don't think I'm Nazifying the thread, there'll be consideration of the "I'm just following orders" defense.

Trump is telling his subordinates they're not allowed to talk with Congress. But it looks like this order may itself be illegal. If subordinates follow his order, and thereby defy a legally-issued subpoena from Congress, will they say they were just following orders? Will they be punished anyway?
IANAL but it seems to me that a subpoena trumps (as it were) an "order" from your boss, even if that boss is, well, you know...
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  #2619  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:13 PM
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Washington Post, via Kyle Griffin, MSNBC:
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Breaking via WaPo: Gordon Sondland intends to tell Congress that the text he wrote denying a quid pro quo with Ukraine was relayed to him directly by Trump in a call. Sondland plans to say he has no knowledge of whether Trump was telling him the truth.
...
"It's only true that the president said it, not that it was the truth," the person familiar with Gordon Sondland's planned testimony tells WaPo.
...
Gordon Sondland is expected to say that for months before the Sept. 9 message, he worked at the direction of Rudy Giuliani to secure what he would call in another text message the "deliverable" sought by Trump: a public statement from Ukraine that it would investigate corruption.
  #2620  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:19 PM
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I'm wondering whether, and please don't think I'm Nazifying the thread, there'll be consideration of the "I'm just following orders" defense.
As even Godwin could say, one should not be afraid of calling cosplay fascists what they are, and specially to followers of Agolf Twitler.
  #2621  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:01 PM
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Photo surfaces from 2014 of Trump and Lev Parnas standing together side by side. I suspect Republicans might try and spin this one by saying that Trump was asleep at the time, and didn't know the other guy, who was a The Apprentice superfan trying to get a picture.
  #2622  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:51 PM
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/12/polit...osi/index.html

Quote:
Trump said he spoke to his lawyers about Schiff and told them, "Sue him anyway, even if we lose, the American public will understand."
"And sue Nancy Pelosi," Trump continued.
  #2623  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:24 PM
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Photo surfaces from 2014 of Trump and Lev Parnas standing together side by side. I suspect Republicans might try and spin this one by saying that Trump was asleep at the time, and didn't know the other guy, who was a The Apprentice superfan trying to get a picture.
Here one has to notice how unfairly many refugees or visa holders have been turned away thanks to enhanced vetting, ordered by Trump and henchmen, that includes looking at what friends or relatives did or even said against America in social media.

It would be funny to find how social media could be part of Trump's undoing, what is good from Politico is that they also checked other sources for the connections that Lev Parnas had with Trump.
  #2624  
Old Yesterday, 07:30 AM
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Yeaaaah... if I was a general directing a war against even a very stupid enemy, I would be very suspicious if the enemy's Order of Battle fell out of the blue sky right into my hands not once, but twice.
Would you reconsider your "stupid like a fox" hypothesis if every time it happened, the enemy proceeded to follow their Order of Battle to the letter?
  #2625  
Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
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This https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...e-rival-229341 article really annoyed me.
Quote:
In order to prove Trump abused his presidential powers to the point that he no longer can be trusted in exercising themóthe constitutional standard for impeachmentóCongress must establish Trumpís intent in making the request.
Don't the facts of the so-called investigation on their own point to Trump's motives?
  • He didn't ask the FBI to investigate the corruption that so worried him.
  • He used a celebrity lawyer and the celebrity lawyer's bungling flunkies to conduct the so-called investigation.
  • The spark for the so-called investigation was a right wing conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.
  #2626  
Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM
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He asked for a quid pro quo in manufacturing evidence against Hunter Biden in a conversation with the Ukrainian President, known via a document relating to this call released by the White House as it's official response to the criminal allegation, thereby proving said allegation...

He asked China to investigate Hunter Biden, then immediately signaled collapse on the trade talks...
  #2627  
Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...emocrats-again
Janitors and cleaning staff are smarter than anyone in Trumps administration. You know that Trumps password is 'MAGA'.

"Oh, what's this?"
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  #2628  
Old Today, 09:37 AM
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Trump's Syria blunder has given the Republicans their escape path. They have to dump Trump far ahead of the election and now they can. We will soon be getting propaganda about how fortunate we are that Pence is a noble and skilled statesman. Impeachment of Trump by the Democrats is a gift.

I suspect that Romney has at least an agnostic attitude toward the Whitehorse Prophecy.
  #2629  
Old Today, 09:43 AM
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Rashida Tlaib (also known as a "despicable human being") says that Democrats have discussed jailing White House officials who don't testify.

From here:

Quote:
There have been actual serious conversations about what the logistics would look like ... if we did have to force someone through a court order to come before the Congressional committee," she said. "This is pretty uncharted territory for many of us and even for Congress.”
Tlaib's comments echoed those of Rep. John Garamendi (D-Calif.), who called for the House to do as much in a CNN interview earlier this week.
"I think it's time to call in the sergeant-at-arms and march them off to our little jail, which we do happen to have," Garamendi said on Wednesday.
"Let them sit there and cool off for a while," he added.
In an inherent contempt proceeding, the House or Senate would have its sergeant-at-arms or a deputy of that person take someone into custody.
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Last edited by Superdude; Today at 09:44 AM.
  #2630  
Old Today, 09:51 AM
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If someone disobeys a subpoena, a perp walk in handcuffs followed by the sounds of a cell door locking is a-ok in my book.
  #2631  
Old Today, 09:53 AM
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If someone disobeys a subpoena, a perp walk in handcuffs followed by the sounds of a cell door locking is a-ok in my book.
There has to be a poena in subpoena, or else it's more like an RSVP.
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