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  #2051  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:45 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
Your opinions are noted. They are rejected as being out of touch with reality.
Only by a vocal minority apparently not qualified to reject them. Others in this thread have agreed that Brazil played better than Belgium and Croatia better than France. Pretty much every thing I’ve said in this thread was either stated later by the experts on Fox. You know, people who actually played the game. Lalas agreed with me on the Kane penalty and on Brazil. Guus Hiddink in Croatia. The world’s betting markets did as well. So the smiley is facing the wrong direction.
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  #2052  
Old 07-15-2018, 05:01 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
It was decidedly deliberate handling. He moves his arm down to contact the ball,
I dunno. I think his arm came down because that's where something moves after it goes up. Not deliberately hitting the ball.

Quote:
It wasn't a natural position for his arm to be in, given his attempt to jump up.
Your opinion. Seems a very natural position to me given his jump.

Which is why I hate the wording of the handball (sorry! handling!) rule. Soo damn subjective.

Last edited by Snarky_Kong; 07-15-2018 at 05:02 PM.
  #2053  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:06 PM
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Yookeroo Yookeroo is offline
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Penalties require skill from both taker and GK and composure. When weighed against the health risks of the only better way to decide knockout matches, its a great compromise. In 1994 two of the greatest players to play their positions not only missed their PKs but put them over the bar.

https://youtu.be/jsOleoyrbFE

PKs require footballing skill.
No one said otherwise. It may be a footballing skill, but it's not the same as play on the field. Still a crappy way to decide who advances. Not sure what your point is about great players missing PKs.
  #2054  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:20 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
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Originally Posted by Yookeroo View Post
No one said otherwise. It may be a footballing skill, but it's not the same as play on the field. Still a crappy way to decide who advances. Not sure what your point is about great players missing PKs.
Point being that after 120 minutes the body is breaking down and even one of the worlds best strikers can't put the ball on goal. As mentioned above penalties use footballing skills to decide the match. Its also really exciting. How is it crappy when the alternative puts players health at risk?
  #2055  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:55 PM
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Yookeroo Yookeroo is offline
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Point being that after 120 minutes the body is breaking down and even one of the worlds best strikers can't put the ball on goal.
Ok. So? Not sure why this is relevant.

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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
As mentioned above penalties use footballing skills to decide the match. Its also really exciting. How is it crappy when the alternative puts players health at risk?
It's crappy because it isn't football. It's a skill contest. Just because the alternatives are worse doesn't mean it's a good way to determine who advances. It's just the least horrible way to do it.
  #2056  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:02 PM
borschevsky borschevsky is offline
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I still like the approach of having the penalties prior to the match rather than after.
  #2057  
Old 07-17-2018, 08:19 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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So, remember what I said about World Cup final ratings a bit ago (when I was savaged for it) - oh and yes I was talking more about US ratings

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018...lemundo-final/

This is the lowest rated combined (English and Spanish) US World Cup final rating since 2002. Almost 10 million less viewers than 2014. Almost 7 million less viewers than, 2010.

Yes, it began before noon Eastern Time (11am for the record, so 8am Western, but I was told that it wouldn't matter due to it being the World Cup final, and of course about 50% of the US population does live in EST), but I still believe Croatia, not really a soccer power, being one of the two teams hurt interest.

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Last edited by ISiddiqui; 07-17-2018 at 08:20 PM.
  #2058  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:18 AM
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Were there any changes to style of play in this world cup? I felt that teams pressed more aggressively for the ball, even strikers, so no-one had much time on the ball. But also, and perhaps because of this, there was more passing and fewer attempts to dribble round players. Teams would often pass the ball back from the attacking third right back to the defending third just to keep possession.
"Route one": long balls into the penalty area were rare.

However...maybe I'm imagining things and none of this is actually any different from recent tournaments.

And how play style might (unfortunately) change in the future:
I think the VAR performed well actually, and made many important and correct decisions. However there were many false positive hand ball decisions.
If it stays like this, players might start to take advantage. For example, if I'm in the penalty area but I can't get a good shot and my teammates are either absent or surrounded, then why not chip the ball at one of the defenders' torsos? Maybe I get a penalty.
  #2059  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:10 AM
Go_Arachnid_Laser Go_Arachnid_Laser is online now
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
I think the VAR performed well actually, and made many important and correct decisions. However there were many false positive hand ball decisions.
If it stays like this, players might start to take advantage. For example, if I'm in the penalty area but I can't get a good shot and my teammates are either absent or surrounded, then why not chip the ball at one of the defenders' torsos? Maybe I get a penalty.
That already happens now. Hell, I did that as a kid in the playground.
  #2060  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser View Post
That already happens now. Hell, I did that as a kid in the playground.
The point is, until recently it would be rare as a deliberate tactic in professional football.
If I chip the ball up at your arm, what's supposed to happen is the referee waves play on.
  #2061  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:32 AM
Go_Arachnid_Laser Go_Arachnid_Laser is online now
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
The point is, until recently it would be rare as a deliberate tactic in professional football.
If I chip the ball up at your arm, what's supposed to happen is the referee waves play on.
What usually happens is that somebody points at their arm, the ref just waves them to continue, everybody finishes the play, and maybe the captain of the aggravated team complains afterwards. Or the whole team sometimes, because football. What I've seen happening with the VAR, at least in the final, is exactly the same, only the ref can check afterwards and give the foul or the penalty if needed.

I don't remember seeing the referee giving any false handballs after checking, to be honest. Of course, I haven't watched even half the matches.
  #2062  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:20 AM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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I saw a case, it may have even been in the final, where the ball was kicked, at fairly close range, right at one player's face. (I don't mean to say it was deliberate; just that one player was attempting a lofted pass to a teammate just as a defender was coming to guard him.) He moved his arm slightly, just to prevent the ball from hitting his face, and got called for it.

Is that as specified in the rules? The ball was going to hit him. I suppose it ricocheted in a different direction off his forearm than it would have off his face, but it still seems a bit harsh.
  #2063  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:39 AM
Go_Arachnid_Laser Go_Arachnid_Laser is online now
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
I saw a case, it may have even been in the final, where the ball was kicked, at fairly close range, right at one player's face. (I don't mean to say it was deliberate; just that one player was attempting a lofted pass to a teammate just as a defender was coming to guard him.) He moved his arm slightly, just to prevent the ball from hitting his face, and got called for it.

Is that as specified in the rules? The ball was going to hit him. I suppose it ricocheted in a different direction off his forearm than it would have off his face, but it still seems a bit harsh.
Well, the rule of thumb is that the arm needs to be in a natural position, so defenders can run around with free use of their arms, but can't game the system by flailing their arms around and then claiming any handball that flailing causes as unintended.

Would attempting to shield your face count as intentional handling of the ball? Yeah, I can see that. It would still be left to the ref's discretion, but sure. It would be quite easy to get away with a lot of handballs just by claiming self-protection if it wasn't, I assume.

Last edited by Go_Arachnid_Laser; 07-19-2018 at 01:40 AM.
  #2064  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:57 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is online now
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
The point is, until recently it would be rare as a deliberate tactic in professional football.
If I chip the ball up at your arm, what's supposed to happen is the referee waves play on.
I think this is something that will self-correct. If VAR drives such a tactic and too many penalties are given then a change to the hand-ball law (or interpretation of it) can be made.
  #2065  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:16 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
I saw a case, it may have even been in the final, where the ball was kicked, at fairly close range, right at one player's face. (I don't mean to say it was deliberate; just that one player was attempting a lofted pass to a teammate just as a defender was coming to guard him.) He moved his arm slightly, just to prevent the ball from hitting his face, and got called for it.

Is that as specified in the rules? The ball was going to hit him. I suppose it ricocheted in a different direction off his forearm than it would have off his face, but it still seems a bit harsh.
Yes, this is a case of deliberate handling. You may not shield yourself from the ball. Referees often warn people standing in the wall not to move their hands to shield their face that way.

By contrast, if you leave your hands cupped together in front of your groin, and don't move the arms if a ball is kicked at it, this is generally not considered handling, as you aren't attempting to play the ball with your hands. Perhaps this shows the relative value that men put on the crown jewels vs. their face.

When I was refereeing in the 90s, it was common to allow young women to cross their arms across their breasts when they were in the wall. Same reasoning applied.
  #2066  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:33 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Which is why I hate the wording of the handball (sorry! handling!) rule. Soo damn subjective.
I wanted to get back to this when I had a moment. It demonstrates a common mis-conception about the whole issue.

ALL FOULS ARE SUBJECTIVE.

If you look at Law XII of the IFAB's Laws of the Game, specifically the list of fouls which result in direct free kicks (and, thus, penalty kicks if committed by the defense in their own penalty area), they are almost all subjective in nature. The only two which are not are the bite/spit foul and the throw something at the ball/someone foul, both of which were recently added just to make sure everyone knows you can't do those stupid things.

The first seven listed fouls (charge, jump, kick, push, strike, tackle/challenge, trip) are only fouls when done "carelessly, recklessly, or using excessive force". That make clear that a subjective determination is required. Handling is only a foul when done "deliberately"; that as you note requires a subjective determination. "Holds an opponent" and "impedes an opponent with contact" don't sound subjective, but the subjective nature of those two fouls comes from deciding when someone is actually holding or impeding someone. Thus, all the common fouls are subjective in nature.

The trouble with the handling foul isn't that it is subjective. After all, people debate all the time about penalty calls for tripping and holding, yet those fouls don't get the ire of everyone. The trouble with the handling foul is that it gets called on the basis of an inference. Is the players arm where it is as the result of conscious or subconscious choice by the player to try to potentially influence the ball? Or is it there because, as people put it, the arm has to be somewhere, and the player is merely trying to do something else other than use the arm to influence the ball, and the arm just got in the way? But in the end run, it doesn't really matter. Penalty calls for handling are usually no more or less disputable than penalty calls for tripping, charging, holding, pushing, etc. It's just a slightly different debate.

In all cases, they are subjective. It's not possible for that element to be taken out of the decision.
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