Straight Dope Message Board

[The wind of my soul]

Link. Can you imagine the kind of abuse and neglect it takes to not only rape a comatose patient, but also not notice a baby growing inside of her until she gives birth to him? This is one of the worst things I've ever seen.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Well, it sure ain't good, it sure ain't right, and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable and punished. But (and not to minimize its horror) it's far from among the worst things I've ever seen, sadly enough.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by The wind of my soul

Link. Can you imagine the kind of abuse and neglect it takes to not only rape a comatose patient, but also not notice a baby growing inside of her until she gives birth to him? This is one of the worst things I've ever seen.

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Well, it sure ain't good, it sure ain't right, and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable and punished. But (and not to minimize its horror) it's far from among the worst things I've ever seen, sadly enough.

With respect, Doc, you're kind of a special case...

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Well, it sure ain't good, it sure ain't right, and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable and punished. But (and not to minimize its horror) it's far from among the worst things I've ever seen, sadly enough.

Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.

For me, this story's breathtaking in its awfulness. She was potentially exposed to STDs by her rapist, there's no telling how often he raped her, and there's no telling if she was aware of being assaulted. Her family must be shattered by this.

[nearwildheaven]

I also wonder if the patient ever went out on passes.

There was a comparable story a while back about a disabled woman who did get pregnant (and the condition was not discovered until it was too late for an abortion). Her sister would bring her home a few times a month, usually for a weekend, and in the end, it turned out that her husband had done this! The healthy sister adopted the baby, and the husband went to prison.

There are all sorts of degrees of coma; people in them range from those who are brain-dead on life support, to people who are partially conscious and in some cases can even walk and/or speak. There's also locked-in syndrome, where people are completely aware of their surroundings and similarly unable to care for themselves. The wonderful book and movie "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" are by and about someone who became this way after a stroke.

https://www.amazon.com/Diving-Bell-B...bell+butterfly

It's measured via the Glasgow Coma Scale.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/

[nearwildheaven]

This link is much simpler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.

I could have said the same thing before working in a prison. I've worked in a Children's hospital ER, along with STD clinics too.

As for not picking up a pregnancy: I've done obstetrics and taken care of nursing home patients who were vegetative. The latter don't get routine abdominal exams or gyn exams, especially if in a comatose/vegetative state and emphasis is on care and comfort, not diagnosis and treatment. So pregnancy would not routinely be noted, frankly. And I've seen pregnant women who didn't show it at all, even at term. Not morbidly obese ones either, but ones with enough adipose tissue and loose skin, to easily cover the evidence.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

As for not picking up a pregnancy: I've done obstetrics and taken care of nursing home patients who were vegetative. The latter don't get routine abdominal exams or gyn exams, especially if in a comatose/vegetative state and emphasis is on care and comfort, not diagnosis and treatment. So pregnancy would not routinely be noted, frankly. And I've seen pregnant women who didn't show it at all, even at term. Not morbidly obese ones either, but ones with enough adipose tissue and loose skin, to easily cover the evidence.

I'll also note that in at least one of the cases mentioned in this thread, the baby was born very premature. I'm assuming that would mean the mother was showing less visible signs of being pregnant at the time of the birth.

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.

For me, this story's breathtaking in its awfulness. She was potentially exposed to STDs by her rapist, there's no telling how often he raped her, and there's no telling if she was aware of being assaulted. Her family must be shattered by this.

At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?

I am surprised at a warrant being issued for the DNA of all the male workers. I guess it depends on how large that group is. I thought warrants had to be fairly specific. Any lawyers want to chime in on how broad warrants like that can be?

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=

At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?

No. No, it does not.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=

At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?

I've seen that reasoning used to dismiss as "not so serious" rapes of children who at the time didn't understand what was going on.

[Velocity]

Wonder if they'll DNA-test the baby against DNA collected from everyone who works in the hospital.

[Serenata67]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Wonder if they'll DNA-test the baby against DNA collected from everyone who works in the hospital.

Well, at least all the males who work there...

I just can't believe this story. I mean, I'm sure it happened, but it's unbelievable that someone could do that and no one would notice.

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Serenata67

Well, at least all the males who work there...

Right, all the males.


Wonder if this requires a court order or if it's within the employer's rights to force DNA tests of this kind? Something about self-incrimination/Constitution/Miranda, etc.

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Right, all the males.


Wonder if this requires a court order or if it's within the employer's rights to force DNA tests of this kind? Something about self-incrimination/Constitution/Miranda, etc.

It is against the law for an employer to get your DNA. As well it should be.

A court could order it as part of a criminal investigation, but I doubt seriously that a court would order all the males who work in a hospital to submit to a DNA test. It would likely be the same sort of standard as a search warrant. They'd need probable cause to believe that an individual committed a crime. The fact that some male obviously did commit a crime isn't enough to force all males in the vicinity to undergo genetic testing.

It seems likely that there will be other evidence that can be gathered. The perpetrator likely had intimate knowledge of care schedules or was one of the woman's caregivers. Which will narrow the search a lot.

[Mama Zappa]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=

It is against the law for an employer to get your DNA. As well it should be.

A court could order it as part of a criminal investigation, but I doubt seriously that a court would order all the males who work in a hospital to submit to a DNA test. It would likely be the same sort of standard as a search warrant. They'd need probable cause to believe that an individual committed a crime. The fact that some male obviously did commit a crime isn't enough to force all males in the vicinity to undergo genetic testing.

It seems likely that there will be other evidence that can be gathered. The perpetrator likely had intimate knowledge of care schedules or was one of the woman's caregivers. Which will narrow the search a lot.

I wonder if one of the DNA services might find "possible relatives", which would also help focus the search. My brother signed up for 23 And Me and got a notice of a high probablility first cousin (we don't know my father's side of the family well at all).

So.... test the baby, send it off, look for matches, get a court order to ID who the matches are, see of those matches are related to anyone who worked at the facility....

[Sir T-Cups]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Wonder if they'll DNA-test the baby against DNA collected from everyone who works in the hospital.

I would certainly think/hope so.

Frankly, for as bad as the situation is, the resolution is pretty straightforward. You would greatly assume it was someone who worked at the hospital, so you can look back at schedules/time punches for roughly 9 months ago, DNA test the baby and against any males working...and boom.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Wonder if they'll DNA-test the baby against DNA collected from everyone who works in the hospital.

While suspecting male staff is a logical thing, it doesn't have to be staff. It could be a frequent male visitor, perhaps someone visiting another patient who goes where he shouldn't. Or even a one-time creep who got in, maybe with the intent to steal stuff, and took advantage of someone who couldn't speak or fight back.

All in all, pretty damn scary stuff.

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

While suspecting male staff is a logical thing, it doesn't have to be staff. It could be a frequent male visitor, perhaps someone visiting another patient who goes where he shouldn't. Or even a one-time creep who got in, maybe with the intent to steal stuff, and took advantage of someone who couldn't speak or fight back.

Exactly. It could have been a visitor or family member, another patient or a visitor of another patient, a vendor like a flower delivery boy, or someone who walked in off the street.

I don't know about you, but I have been a visitor in a hospital (not THIS hospital, mind you) about a dozen times and have never once been asked to state my purpose or produce an ID. Once, I was asked who I was visiting at the front desk, and was given a temporary visitor's badge. Again, I did not present an ID. I have also worked as an IT sub-contractor and walked the halls of Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles. I wore a temp ID badge that did not have my name on it and was never questioned.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

Exactly. It could have been a visitor or family member, another patient or a visitor of another patient, a vendor like a flower delivery boy, or someone who walked in off the street.

Sure, but DNA testing of the staff would eliminate them as suspects, so they could check logs for the time when this could have happened.
You'd also think it would be done by someone familiar with the place, since your random delivery boy wouldn't know that he wouldn't get walked in on. I'd also think that the rape might have happened more than once, since she did get pregnant.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Sure, but DNA testing of the staff would eliminate them as suspects, so they could check logs for the time when this could have happened.
You'd also think it would be done by someone familiar with the place, since your random delivery boy wouldn't know that he wouldn't get walked in on. I'd also think that the rape might have happened more than once, since she did get pregnant.

It doesn't take that long to rape someone, and it only needs to happen once for pregnancy to occur.

Granted, it's more likely it's someone who have more access than a brief time period just once, but it's not impossible for it to have been a one time thing.

[Annie-Xmas]

And the anti-abortion group does a Happy Dance. "God intended for that baby to be born to that mother."

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

And the anti-abortion group does a Happy Dance. "God intended for that baby to be born to that mother."

Do you always have to bring in some abortion/LGBT/religion/atheism non-sequiter into threads like these? This is a repeated pattern of yours.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Do you always have to bring in some abortion/LGBT/religion/atheism non-sequiter into threads like these? This is a repeated pattern of yours.

Not to answer for her, but YES, SHE DOES.

EVERYBODY does.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

Not to answer for her, but YES, SHE DOES.

EVERYBODY does.

Why? You really think it is necessary to insult everybody on "the other side" any time you can find an excuse for it? It's bad enough that some people insist in thinking that anybody not squarely in agreement with them is Evil, but do you have to scream it constantly?

When you guys do that, you behave exactly like the people Annie was talking about when they try to close down Planned Parenthood clinics.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Do you always have to bring in some abortion/LGBT/religion/atheism non-sequiter into threads like these?

I don't have any objection to her bringing that here, it is a related topic.

[Annie-Xmas]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Do you always have to bring in some abortion/LGBT/religion/atheism non-sequiter into threads like these? This is a repeated pattern of yours.

Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.

[StGermain]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.

I don't know what kind of abortion you want to give this woman unless it's post-birth. No one knew she was pregnant. My guess is, if they'd had an inkling, they would've aborted her under the radar so the news wouldn't leak out to the general public.

StG

[bucketybuck]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.

What on earth has abortion got to do with this case?

Can you get any more off topic than shouting about abortion in a case where nobody knew she was pregnant until the baby was born?

[Flyer]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

And the anti-abortion group does a Happy Dance. "God intended for that baby to be born to that mother."

Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.

If I had the knowledge and power to stop the abuse of this woman, I would have. Anyone who wouldn't isn't worth much, morally speaking, IMO.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.

I couldn't sit there and watch silently as a comatose woman was raped...but then again I'm not God, thank ghod.

[G0sp3l]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

I couldn't sit there and watch silently as a comatose woman was raped...but then again I'm not God, thank ghod.

One of the many reasons why I'm atheist and deny the existence of any of the Abrahamic gods.

As far as testing the male staff's DNA, they had better come with a court order. I'm not interested in any spiel stating "this will eliminate you as a suspect."


ETA: To be clear, I am NOT a rapist, nor do I think rapist should get a pass.

[rsat3acr]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.

nm, my statement would need to be in Great Debates.

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.

Bear in mind that the Christian god (or at least one of the dissociative identity disorder suffering Christian god's personalities -- Holy Ghost) knocked up a woman without her knowing it. That god certainly overrode that woman's free will when that god rode her. Hopefully the Holy Ghost had not been at it again with that unfortunate woman in the care facility -- which brings us to the point: had the impregnated woman been receiving pastoral care?

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Muffin

Bear in mind that the Christian god (or at least one of the dissociative identity disorder suffering Christian god's personalities -- Holy Ghost) knocked up a woman without her knowing it.

No, she consented.

[Capn Carl]

Originally Posted by Nava

No, she consented.

Do you believe consent is meaningful between a minor (Mary) and an all-powerful deity?

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Nava

No, she consented.

So did Leda.

[Bear_Nenno]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

And the anti-abortion group does a Happy Dance. "God intended for that baby to be born to that mother."

Strange. I thought the female body had a way of shutting that whole thing down.

[Velocity]

Also, unless the comatose woman were obese, how could the hospital staff not have noticed that her abdomen was getting larger and larger by the month?

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Also, unless the comatose woman were obese, how could the hospital staff not have noticed that her abdomen was getting larger and larger by the month?

I understand that, after being hospitalized due to a fall which rendered him comatose, Dr. Atkins (of the Atkins Diet fame), ballooned up to a state of obesity before he died.

So the phenomenon is not unheard of (the phenomenon of comatose people getting larger, not of men getting pregnant).

[nearwildheaven]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

I understand that, after being hospitalized due to a fall which rendered him comatose, Dr. Atkins (of the Atkins Diet fame), ballooned up to a state of obesity before he died.

So the phenomenon is not unheard of (the phenomenon of comatose people getting larger, not of men getting pregnant).

Dr. Atkins' massive weight gain in his last days was due to a phenomenon called third-spacing, where bodily fluids leak from the capillaries and even cell walls; the person becomes edematous and dehydrated at the same time. A relatively recent example that got in the news a few years ago involved the Ebola patients who were treated in the U.S. and Europe; many of them GAINED as much as 50 pounds over baseline, despite massive diarrhea and/or vomiting, and that's how it happened. One of them was so "puffy", IV access had to be obtained in their tibias, where there's a large marrow chamber just underneath the surface, and that's every bit as painful as it sounds. Apparently it's used quite a bit in critically ill babies and small children; I never personally saw an order for it.

I, too wonder what kind of "nursing home" she was in, for her caregivers not to notice that she was pregnant? For one thing, didn't she have menstrual cycles, and didn't anyone notice that she wasn't having them any more?

Some of us on another board also wondered if the perpetrator might not be someone who works there - because it was ANOTHER CLIENT. This is not uncommon in senior-oriented nursing homes or homes for people with traumatic brain injuries, due to the loss of inhibitions, or MR/DD facilities as well. It could also have been a contract employee, a relative of a visitor, etc. In any case, this person needs to be caught and sent to prison.

[Serenata67]

Originally Posted by nearwildheaven

<snip>
I, too wonder what kind of "nursing home" she was in, for her caregivers not to notice that she was pregnant? For one thing, didn't she have menstrual cycles, and didn't anyone notice that she wasn't having them any more?
<snip>

You can have what appears to be menstrual cycles while pregnant. Some pregnant women have breakthrough bleeding during pregnancy... that's one of the reasons why some women say they didn't know they were pregnant when they have a surprise baby. Furthermore, she could experience infrequent or irregular periods due to her not being physically active. Heck, physically active women often have irregular or infrequent periods. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, the reproductive system doesn't work like a clock. It doesn't happen at precise intervals every single month.

[nearwildheaven]

Originally Posted by Serenata67

You can have what appears to be menstrual cycles while pregnant. Some pregnant women have breakthrough bleeding during pregnancy... that's one of the reasons why some women say they didn't know they were pregnant when they have a surprise baby. Furthermore, she could experience infrequent or irregular periods due to her not being physically active. Heck, physically active women often have irregular or infrequent periods. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, the reproductive system doesn't work like a clock. It doesn't happen at precise intervals every single month.

That's true.

And aren't diapers supposed to be charted if you're in any kind of care facility? I know they do that in hospitals.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by nearwildheaven

For one thing, didn't she have menstrual cycles, and didn't anyone notice that she wasn't having them any more?

Serious question, help fight ignorance - Given she was comatose, & therefore incontinent, she'd be in a diaper 24x7. Is there any reason to treat a period differently than urine or feces & have it collected in a diaper? If not, then would caregivers necessarily notice when she did/not have her period?

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Also, unless the comatose woman were obese, how could the hospital staff not have noticed that her abdomen was getting larger and larger by the month?

Some of that would depend on the initial size of the woman, and also how the baby was carried. We had neighbors who were surprised when we started pushing a baby carriage around the neighborhood, as my wife didn't show a lot (and he was a 7lb something baby).

Also, the woman would have been on a constant calorie diet (no one knowing she was pregnant), so her only weight gain would have been the baby.

[Chronos]

I suppose that it's possible that they assumed that she was becoming obese, since the possibility that someone had impregnated her was too ludicrous to consider.

It's also possible that the impregnator (I hesitate to use the word "father") was her primary caregiver, the person whose job it would have been to notice.

[The wind of my soul]

Originally Posted by Chronos

It's also possible that the impregnator (I hesitate to use the word "father") was her primary caregiver, the person whose job it would have been to notice.

Is that how these facilities work? I had thought that care facilities had several primary caregivers, so the fact that not one of them noticed seemed indicative of some horrible negligence with regards to their duties.

[Nava]

If I read it correctly, the article doesn't mention any relatives of that particular patient; they mention relatives of other patients. Having a person who actually cares about you as a human being makes an enormous difference in the care a defenseless person gets; that's something we really need to improve as a society, I understand that having some distance from patients is necessary but it shouldn't get to the point where we think of that incapacitated person as nothing but a lump of meat.

[Lisa21222]

Originally Posted by Nava

If I read it correctly, the article doesn't mention any relatives of that particular patient; they mention relatives of other patients. Having a person who actually cares about you as a human being makes an enormous difference in the care a defenseless person gets; that's something we really need to improve as a society, I understand that having some distance from patients is necessary but it shouldn't get to the point where we think of that incapacitated person as nothing but a lump of meat.

According to the news yesterday morning, the woman's parents have indicated that the baby will be well taken care of, but that this should never have occurred. So yes, it seems there are parents.