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  #301  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:25 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...nope. I don't make wagers and would politely refrain you asking me that question ever again.

And no a major publication is not going to lose a libel lawsuit and they aren't going to settle regarding this. If you actually believe this not to be the case: would you care to share some examples of major publications that you think have crossed the line?
Refrain noted and acknowledged.
  #302  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:39 PM
nate nate is offline
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Would someone please provide some link to something that shows the native american walking up and banging his drum two inches from the kid? I'm hung up on this point. None of the pro-kids arguments make any sense to me without knowing that fact.
  #303  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:46 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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In several places I've seen it likened to Orwell's "two minutes hate". I find the comparison apt.
Ahem. "Lock her up!"?
  #304  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:50 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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It’s telling you don’t actually quote it directly.
I absolutely did quote you directly. Didn't you click my link to your own post, which is what I was quoting?

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Originally Posted by octopus
If a subset a of a class b were treating another subset violently would you or would you not argue that the state has a legitimate role in preventing or considering the prevention of that violence or exploitation?
Sure, but it should do so by enacting and enforcing laws against violent behavior. The government is not entitled to ban cultural symbols just because it considers them ideological markers of a bad attitude.

Likewise, I think the government has a legitimate role in preventing and punishing the violence committed by numerous Trump supporters against immigrants, people of color, and innocent randos that they've cast as the villains of their conspiracy theories. But I would never claim that the government has any right to ban the wearing of MAGA hats. That still doesn't make it wrong to criticize the wearing of MAGA hats, though.

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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
And no a major publication is not going to lose a libel lawsuit and they aren't going to settle regarding this.
Heck, AFAICT even Alex Jones and InfoWars have yet to lose any of the lawsuits against them for their blatantly false and vicious fabrications about innocent people that have inspired long-lasting persecution of their victims:
Quote:
On his radio broadcast and in videos, Mr. Jones for years spread bogus claims that the [Sandy Hook] shooting was a “false flag,” an event staged by the government as part of an effort to confiscate Americans’ firearms, and that the parents of the children killed were “crisis actors.” [...]

Mr. Jones showed his audience Mr. Pozner’s personal information and maps to addresses associated with his family [...]

Subsequent death threats and harassment have forced the Pozner family to move seven times. They currently live in hiding. [...]

[...] a separate defamation case brought by Marcel Fontaine, who was falsely identified on the Infowars website as the gunman in the Parkland, Fla., school shooting in February.

After the Infowars report, Mr. Fontaine was subjected to months of harassment, including threats at his workplace.
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Originally Posted by Dale Sams
This bullshit call-out culture shit has got to stop. "I want names!! Ruin these fuckers lives!! Ruin their parents lives!!"
You know, if conservatives really want this bullshit call-out culture shit to stop inciting angry folks to ruin innocent people's lives, maybe they should try persuading more of their fellow conservatives to stop supporting the likes of InfoWars.
  #305  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:51 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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I absolutely did quote you directly. Didn't you click my link to your own post, which is what I was quoting?


Sure, but it should do so by enacting and enforcing laws against violent behavior. The government is not entitled to ban cultural symbols just because it considers them ideological markers of a bad attitude.

Likewise, I think the government has a legitimate role in preventing and punishing the violence committed by numerous Trump supporters against immigrants, people of color, and innocent randos that they've cast as the villains of their conspiracy theories. But I would never claim that the government has any right to ban the wearing of MAGA hats. That still doesn't make it wrong to criticize the wearing of MAGA hats, though.


Heck, AFAICT even Alex Jones and InfoWars have yet to lose any of the lawsuits against them for their blatantly false and vicious fabrications about innocent people that have inspired long-lasting persecution of their victims:



You know, if conservatives really want this bullshit call-out culture shit to stop inciting angry folks to ruin innocent people's lives, maybe they should try persuading more of their fellow conservatives to stop supporting the likes of InfoWars.
Im not conservative and I don't know any.
  #306  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:57 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Im not conservative and I don't know any.
Some folks have all the luck.
  #307  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:00 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Would someone please provide some link to something that shows the native american walking up and banging his drum two inches from the kid? I'm hung up on this point. None of the pro-kids arguments make any sense to me without knowing that fact.
Not a matter of measurement, it is the quality of the act! "In the face" is the quality of the act, and the essence of the attack. Oftimes, neither of the participants actually define the moment, but the "in the face"-ness can be detected by a keen and acute observer.

As witness herein: the simple act of watching video and accompanying, if wildly divergent, testimony. For the keen witted and sharp, the clarity is complete, they know to a fine point that, yes, indeed, he was "in his face" with his drum. They have no shared perception of actual, measured distance? It is of no consequence, the quality of the act, its "face-ness", is clear to the wise observer, but may be entirely hidden from louts like you and I.

I am told that such subjective awareness can extend to clothing: to the intelligent and perceptive, it is readily apparent, only dullards such as myself cannot see. Alas.
  #308  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:05 AM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Would someone please provide some link to something that shows the native american walking up and banging his drum two inches from the kid? I'm hung up on this point. None of the pro-kids arguments make any sense to me without knowing that fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZTDIoywwGk

At 8:45 you can see Phillips approach the group. I don't see an angle where he seems to be right in someones face. Maybe when the camera turned away? I dunno. I don't even particularly see Sandmann
  #309  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:17 AM
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Well, it seems like one guy's lost his job due to calling for the death of the kids and their parents.
  #310  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
I absolutely did quote you directly. Didn't you click my link to your own post, which is what I was quoting?


Sure, but it should do so by enacting and enforcing laws against violent behavior. The government is not entitled to ban cultural symbols just because it considers them ideological markers of a bad attitude.

Likewise, I think the government has a legitimate role in preventing and punishing the violence committed by numerous Trump supporters against immigrants, people of color, and innocent randos that they've cast as the villains of their conspiracy theories. But I would never claim that the government has any right to ban the wearing of MAGA hats. That still doesn't make it wrong to criticize the wearing of MAGA hats, though.


Heck, AFAICT even Alex Jones and InfoWars have yet to lose any of the lawsuits against them for their blatantly false and vicious fabrications about innocent people that have inspired long-lasting persecution of their victims:



You know, if conservatives really want this bullshit call-out culture shit to stop inciting angry folks to ruin innocent people's lives, maybe they should try persuading more of their fellow conservatives to stop supporting the likes of InfoWars.
Look, I’m pretty pro-free speech but even I admit that Germany has the right to prohibit the swastika for example. I think it’s unnecessary but I understand. I was saying I don’t have a problem with the general principle that government action affects different religious groups disproportionately. I’d extend that principle. I don’t care if some government action affects any group disproportionately.

Ultimately, it depends on the details if I disagree with the specifics.
  #311  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:33 AM
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Refrain noted and acknowledged.
...thank you
  #312  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:34 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Look, I’m pretty pro-free speech but even I admit that Germany has the right to prohibit the swastika for example.
If we're talking about what a sovereign nation is legally entitled to do, sure Germany has the right to prohibit the swastika. But as far as civil-liberties principles are concerned, I don't think prohibiting the swastika is the right policy, and I don't endorse Germany's choice to do so.

Still less do I endorse attempts in France to ban the far more defensible use of traditional Muslim garments such as the headscarf. And of course, as I noted, banning MAGA hats in the US is right out.
  #313  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:50 AM
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Well, it seems like one guy's lost his job due to calling for the death of the kids and their parents.
Not surprising. But that's an interesting link in your cite about the flagship conservative periodical National Review, considering how some posters here have been trying to make the issue of overreaction and excessive outrage at the Covington students all about liberals:
Quote:
The National Review pulled down an article on Sunday attacking the students at Covington Catholic High School, which said their behavior toward Native American elder Nathan Phillips was comparable to spitting on the cross.

“They mock a serious, frail-looking older man and gloat in their momentary role as Roman soldiers to his Christ. “‘Bullying’ is a worn-out word and doesn’t convey the full extent of the evil on display here,” National Review Deputy Managing Editor Nicholas Frankovich said in the original piece. “As for the putatively Catholic students from Covington, they might as well have just spit on the cross and got it over with.”
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Originally Posted by doorhinge
the lame stream media's attacks on a teenager
Hmm, I guess "lame stream media" includes the National Review now.
  #314  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
Would you like a friendly wager as to whether or not a major publication will lose a libel lawsuit or settle out of court regarding this situation?
I mean, I'll take those odds. PM me.
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  #315  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:55 AM
The Plutonium Kid The Plutonium Kid is offline
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What is it that you think you are accomplishing with this dictionary definition? Can you tell me the time stamp of the video where the attack occurred?
He's reminding you that your overblown rhetoric is entirely disconnected from reality.
  #316  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:58 AM
The Plutonium Kid The Plutonium Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by nate View Post
Would someone please provide some link to something that shows the native american walking up and banging his drum two inches from the kid? I'm hung up on this point. None of the pro-kids arguments make any sense to me without knowing that fact.
The videos aren't hard to find. If you can't find them, it can only be because you don't want to find them.
  #317  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:31 AM
Elmore Elmore is offline
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Has anyone pointed that that is silly because we are talking about a group of students that decided to troll with MAGA hats, sweaters, and other paraphernalia? Point being that this is not a lone person, but guys with a "message" to deliver.
Not true. Sandmann has become the focal point for soy latté twitter’s hysterical outrage. He’s the one getting the death threats.

Incidentally, isn’t it horrifying that literally thousands of verified users with, collectively, tens of millions of followers can wish violence and death on a child with utter impunity for the “crime” of being a cheeky little shit? World War III can’t come fast enough.

Last edited by Elmore; 01-24-2019 at 03:31 AM.
  #318  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:47 AM
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Incidentally, isn’t it horrifying that literally thousands of verified users with, collectively, tens of millions of followers can wish violence and death on a child with utter impunity for the “crime” of being a cheeky little shit?
...cite for the bolded please.
  #319  
Old 01-24-2019, 06:15 AM
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Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Look, I’m pretty pro-free speech
Some of your best friends are talkers.
  #320  
Old 01-24-2019, 07:24 AM
nate nate is offline
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The videos aren't hard to find. If you can't find them, it can only be because you don't want to find them.
In the time it took to make this post you could have just provided a link but nope, you just want to assume my intentions are dishonest and dismiss my question. I've searched but couldn't find one so I'm asking for help because it's obvious people assume this native american walked up into the smirking kid's personal space and continued to bang his drum. I'm wondering where this assumption came from, because if the kid walked into the protester's personal space it verifies the media's initial reaction was correct. My mind is still open on the matter unlike most in this thread.
  #321  
Old 01-24-2019, 07:28 AM
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And supporting the right or the president is now worthy of being targeted with doxxing and death threats? C’mon now.
True - we should save those things for women who speak up about, well, anything.
  #322  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:22 AM
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you could have just provided a link but nope,.... I've searched but couldn't find one.. because it's obvious people assume this native american walked up into the smirking kid's personal space and continued to bang his drum. I'm wondering where this assumption came from
This "assumption" came from the original 4-minute clip which went viral and started the whole story. It's the first link listed on youtube when you search "Covington native american".
Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JMkzakXgIY

Watch it carefully,in case you are the only person in this thread who hasn't seen it yet.
At 0:20 seconds into the clip, the native american starts walking towards the kid, who is not moving.
At 0:29 seconds, he is standing face to face, maybe 12 inches between their noses, beating the drum in the kid's face, holding it with his left hand about 1 inch from the kid's body
At 0:31 seconds, the drum-beater makes physical contact with the kid, when both the drum and his left hand briefly touch the kid's shoulder.

It's brief, harmless contact.
But it is definitely infringing on the kid's personal space.

The drummer is the one doing all the action...The kid remains stiff, standing absolutely still, in no way threatening the drummer,( but,yes, he does stand his ground and maintain his weird smirking expression.)
  #323  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:53 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
This "assumption" came from the original 4-minute clip which went viral and started the whole story. It's the first link listed on youtube when you search "Covington native american".
Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JMkzakXgIY

Watch it carefully,in case you are the only person in this thread who hasn't seen it yet.
At 0:20 seconds into the clip, the native american starts walking towards the kid, who is not moving.
The kid is not in the clip at 20 seconds. I'm not sure how you can make this assertion.
  #324  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:19 AM
nate nate is offline
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The kid is not in the clip at 20 seconds. I'm not sure how you can make this assertion.
Yeah, the clip shows the native American walking up and then skips immediately to the viral part of the video. It doesn't show who stepped into who's personal space.

If the kid stepped up to the protester, the kid is a dick. If the protester stepped up inches from the unmoving kid, the protester is a dick. But I've yet to see what happened in those moments.

Last edited by nate; 01-24-2019 at 09:20 AM.
  #325  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:25 AM
chappachula chappachula is offline
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The kid is not in the clip at 20 seconds. I'm not sure how you can make this assertion.
Your'e right. But so what?
Looking at the clip again, I realize that it's been edited, and the scene I mentioned at 0:20 is cut-and-pasted from a later scene, starting at 2:30.

At 2:34 the kid appears again, from a different angle. And he's still standing motionless, while the drummer actively pushes the crowd aside and approaches the smirking kid, before making physical contact with him at 2:44.
I'm not saying that the kid isn't being an ass, (and I definitely wonder where their teachers were and why they didn't intervene 10 minutes earlier).
I'm just responding to nate's question above, about who approached whom.
  #326  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:38 AM
nate nate is offline
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Your'e right. But so what?
Looking at the clip again, I realize that it's been edited, and the scene I mentioned at 0:20 is cut-and-pasted from a later scene, starting at 2:30.

At 2:34 the kid appears again, from a different angle. And he's still standing motionless, while the drummer actively pushes the crowd aside and approaches the smirking kid, before making physical contact with him at 2:44.
I'm not saying that the kid isn't being an ass, (and I definitely wonder where their teachers were and why they didn't intervene 10 minutes earlier).
I'm just responding to nate's question above, about who approached whom.
OK, thanks for the info. Man, seeing it from a few different angles makes the kid seem a lot further from the drummer than the original clip. It doesn't look near as provocative from the other angles. The viral clip, to me, makes the kid look like a dick, but seeing the part in the video you referenced changes my mind on that. Now the whole story just seems blown out of proportion (not that it was that big to begin with), and yeah, I blame the quick-twitch media for that.

Last edited by nate; 01-24-2019 at 09:39 AM.
  #327  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:01 AM
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Not true. Sandmann has become the focal point for soy latté twitter’s hysterical outrage. He’s the one getting the death threats.
And I'm not saying that, I'm already on the record that one kid is not the problem, I was referring to the group and the lack of reasonable adult supervision.

It should not had to be said, but apparently many do think that by not declaring the obvious: that I don't agree with those death threats, that therefore me or others that are critical of the poisonous message a group of kids choose to distribute are in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Elmore View Post
Incidentally, isn’t it horrifying that literally thousands of verified users with, collectively, tens of millions of followers can wish violence and death on a child with utter impunity for the “crime” of being a cheeky little shit? World War III can’t come fast enough.
I already posted evidence of how the right wing sources are falsely assassinating the character of Mr. Phillips, and knowing the past history of the extreme right wing, it is 100% certain that death threats have also gone to the Native Americans involved.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 01-24-2019 at 10:05 AM.
  #328  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:04 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Your'e right. But so what?
Looking at the clip again, I realize that it's been edited, and the scene I mentioned at 0:20 is cut-and-pasted from a later scene, starting at 2:30.
Because you are misrepresenting what the clip shows in order to show the man in a less favorable light.
  #329  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:09 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Freedom of speech does not mean you cannot be criticized. The only reason freedom of speech works is that you can be criticized. Then, ideally the best argument wins.
I couldn't agree more.

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These kids can support the President. They can also be criticized for supporting said president. That is freedom of speech.
I couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
These kids can show what support for this particular president means, by being full on bigots on display. And we can criticize them for being bigots. That is also freedom of speech.
Buzzer goes off. Of course it is freedom of speech to call these kids bigots. But by doing so you have poisoned the well and shifted the argument away from the merits and now we have to argue about whether these kids are "bigots."

This whole thread is attempting to determine who was at fault: was it the kids, was it the Black Hebrews, or did this old Indian come into the fray and heightened tensions, whether he meant to do so or not? Or was nobody at fault, that this was just a political rally where most people on all sides protested peacefully and a handful of people acted improperly?

In this, and like almost all debates, when you throw the word "bigot" in there it shifts the debate so that we cannot have the "best argument" winning, we have the best name calling winning. Maybe another thread would be a good place to have an argument as to what it means to be bigoted or whether wearing a MAGA hat or supporting Trump is bigoted.

But the whole thing is a hijack of this thread.
  #330  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:36 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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I couldn't agree more.



I couldn't agree more.



Buzzer goes off. Of course it is freedom of speech to call these kids bigots. But by doing so you have poisoned the well and shifted the argument away from the merits and now we have to argue about whether these kids are "bigots."

This whole thread is attempting to determine who was at fault: was it the kids, was it the Black Hebrews, or did this old Indian come into the fray and heightened tensions, whether he meant to do so or not? Or was nobody at fault, that this was just a political rally where most people on all sides protested peacefully and a handful of people acted improperly?

In this, and like almost all debates, when you throw the word "bigot" in there it shifts the debate so that we cannot have the "best argument" winning, we have the best name calling winning. Maybe another thread would be a good place to have an argument as to what it means to be bigoted or whether wearing a MAGA hat or supporting Trump is bigoted.

But the whole thing is a hijack of this thread.
I'm not sure why we need to assign "fault" at all. No one was hurt. Everything is okay.

We might as well talk about the optics of a teenager wearing a hat that signifies racism and control of our government by a foreign power. That seems like a more interesting discussion.
  #331  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:52 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Hmm, I guess "lame stream media" includes the National Review now.
It has for some time now. They use snooty big words and sometimes even post an article about Der Trumpenführer that isn't a butt-sniffing panegyric.
  #332  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:37 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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I'm not sure why we need to assign "fault" at all. No one was hurt. Everything is okay.
Except for the death threats, the calls for expulsion and the closing down of the school, and the accusations and outing of a 16 year old kid who did nothing wrong, then you are right. Everything is okay.

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We might as well talk about the optics of a teenager wearing a hat that signifies racism and control of our government by a foreign power. That seems like a more interesting discussion.
Then why don't you join one of the other hundreds of threads where you guys make those ridiculous allegations and let us discuss the OP here. Just a polite request, not meant to be junior modding.
  #333  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:41 PM
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I'm not sure why we need to assign "fault" at all. No one was hurt. Everything is okay.
In the same sense that Christine Ford wasn't hurt, so everything is okay.

Regards,
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  #334  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:42 PM
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What am I, or anyone here on the SDMB, or the Democratic party, or liberals in general supposed to do about random internet morons making death threats? What have you or the GOP done about the death threats sent to Dr. Ford?

People on the internet are often assholes. I will agree with that, however what solution are you looking for here? What can anyone do that you would then say "ok my outrage is now under control"?

Edited to add: Shodan, can you point to any posts of yours decrying the death threats against Dr. Ford? Because your outrage seems very selective about death threats.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 01-24-2019 at 01:43 PM.
  #335  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:56 PM
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What am I, or anyone here on the SDMB, or the Democratic party, or liberals in general supposed to do about random internet morons making death threats?
Clearly, we liberals have not done enough to prevent our leftist pals from murdering opponents.

I'll promise to step up the condemnation in 2019, but guns are just so easy to buy....
  #336  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:58 PM
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https://youtu.be/L8kxeFb84iw?t=250
This video has a clearer view of the moments before the Phillips/Sandmann standoff and it's pretty clear that Sandmann was basically standing in one place and Phillips was moving towards him. I also think that even if Sandmann had deliberately blocked Phillips, the latter had no business banging the drum inches from his face for such a long time when he clearly could have moved on.

As to the OP, yeah the early media reporting was very poor, credulously believing Phillips's story which at best was highly misleading. I hope that quality media organizations will study this fiasco and make sure it doesn't happen again.

However I think the bigger issue is that even on the worst interpretation of Sandmann's behavior the fury and venom that was directed at him was absurdly out of proportion to what he was accused of doing. Honestly, I am still not sure I understand it.
  #337  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:20 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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What am I, or anyone here on the SDMB, or the Democratic party, or liberals in general supposed to do about random internet morons making death threats? What have you or the GOP done about the death threats sent to Dr. Ford?

People on the internet are often assholes. I will agree with that, however what solution are you looking for here? What can anyone do that you would then say "ok my outrage is now under control"?
The hypocrisy burns. I'm going to use this anytime Trump is blamed because of some random act of violence.

Second, I didn't say that you or anyone else here had to take proactive steps to stop these things. I was responding to the statement that no harm was done.
  #338  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:24 PM
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The hypocrisy burns. I'm going to use this anytime Trump is blamed because of some random act of violence.
I'm not certain why you would, other than to perplex readers who are wondering why you're equating two completely dissimilar things.
  #339  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:31 PM
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https://youtu.be/L8kxeFb84iw?t=250
This video has a clearer view of the moments before the Phillips/Sandmann standoff and it's pretty clear that Sandmann was basically standing in one place and Phillips was moving towards him. I also think that even if Sandmann had deliberately blocked Phillips, the latter had no business banging the drum inches from his face for such a long time when he clearly could have moved on.

As to the OP, yeah the early media reporting was very poor, credulously believing Phillips's story which at best was highly misleading. I hope that quality media organizations will study this fiasco and make sure it doesn't happen again.

However I think the bigger issue is that even on the worst interpretation of Sandmann's behavior the fury and venom that was directed at him was absurdly out of proportion to what he was accused of doing. Honestly, I am still not sure I understand it.
I absolutely agree. Two observations:

1) The only reason that Phillips gets a pass on his aggressive/annoying behavior is because he engaged in Native American/Indian religious culture. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if this had been, say, a Baptist from Manassas, VA getting two to six inches away from someone and praying for their soul, we would have most posters here calling it an assault and stating that the other person could use force to expel them from their "personal space."

By any objective account, you don't beat a drum in someone's face, especially at a rally when tensions are high. Phillips deserves most of the blame here, IMHO, even if his intentions were pure.

2) I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. Let's say that all of the initial assumptions were true and we have a 16 year old arrogant little fuckhead smirking at a peace loving American Indian who is practicing his religious ceremony. The worst that could be said about that is that it is very rude. And if we are going to close down all of the schools that contain rude 16 year olds then that would amount to a destruction of the education system in this country.

As an aside, what a terrible thing it must be to grow up in this age where everything is captured on social media. There is no freedom to grow up and do stupid things (in general, not that this kid did anything wrong). Imagine that when you are 19 and do a keg stand at a party and forty years later it is archived on TwitterInstaBook for everyone to see at your Senate hearing to become a cabinet member.
  #340  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:32 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Then why don't you join one of the other hundreds of threads where you guys make those ridiculous allegations and let us discuss the OP here. Just a polite request, not meant to be junior modding.
There is at least one other thread about the incident itself. This thread, according to the OP, is whether the media misrepresented the incident. (as far as I can tell)

Part of the media coverage has been "the kid in the MAGA hat did something wrong." I think it's fair to discuss the optics of wearing such a hat.

But, I'll take your polite request to heart and bow out.
  #341  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:33 PM
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The hypocrisy burns. I'm going to use this anytime Trump is blamed because of some random act of violence.
I plan to cite the starting lineup of the 1978 Boston Bruins, myself. It's possibly more relevant.
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  #342  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:59 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Shodan, can you point to any posts of yours decrying the death threats against Dr. Ford? Because your outrage seems very selective about death threats.
Why are you asking me? Procrustus is the one who thinks everything is okay, even when people get death threats. Or at least, sixteen year olds getting death threats for wearing hats with political slogans on them.

FTR, neither the sixteen year olds nor Dr. Ford should get death threats.
Quote:
What am I, or anyone here on the SDMB, or the Democratic party, or liberals in general supposed to do about random internet morons making death threats?
If there is nothing you can do about the nuts on your side, what makes you think I can do more about the nuts on mine?

Regards,
Shodan
  #343  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:04 PM
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The hypocrisy burns. I'm going to use this anytime Trump is blamed because of some random act of violence.
So when that crazy Florida ex-stripper guy started sending bombs around the country to Trump's political enemies, and we saw that his van was full of Trump stickers and whatnot, we lefties said, "Holy cow! This Trumpism is out of control!" We said that on the basis that he sent bombs to Trump's political enemies and so on. I think it is pretty hard to believe that there's no connection between his violence and Trumpism.

For these irresponsible Internet assholes who threaten people's lives, who should I hold accountable for their inexcusable actions? Tell me, really. Warren? Obama? Jimmy Carter? Rosie O'Donnell? Nicolas Maduro? Che Guevara?
  #344  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:05 PM
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So maybe think about that the next time you think about starting a sentence with "liberals..." or "Democrats..." or "the left...". It's almost like the right leaning posters here are more interested in using this incident as a cudgel against the other side than actual real concern about these kids.
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  #345  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:28 PM
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So when that crazy Florida ex-stripper guy started sending bombs around the country to Trump's political enemies, and we saw that his van was full of Trump stickers and whatnot, we lefties said, "Holy cow! This Trumpism is out of control!" We said that on the basis that he sent bombs to Trump's political enemies and so on. I think it is pretty hard to believe that there's no connection between his violence and Trumpism.

For these irresponsible Internet assholes who threaten people's lives, who should I hold accountable for their inexcusable actions? Tell me, really. Warren? Obama? Jimmy Carter? Rosie O'Donnell? Nicolas Maduro? Che Guevara?
You should hold everyone accountable who says that support of the President is not merely a political position of which you disagree but hatred or fascism which needs to be excised from the discourse in regular society. When you do that, people get radical.

But you are right, you cannot control what the craziest person in the country might do because of your political position. Neither can Trump.

Because one guy that is a Trump supporter sent bombs, then that means that it is Trump's fault that he sent bombs. What are you at about 3 of 47,000,000 Trump voters that have bombed people? That is absurd logic and I know you can do better than that.

However, many more on your side have lost your minds. They see a two minute snippet of a video of a 16 year old kid smirking. Does that cause sadness or a shaking of the head, or someone needs to reach out to this kid, or God forbid, let's watch the rest of the video for clarity. No, there is a unanimity of opinion, not among radicals, but among the media like CNN who decries the act as terrible. A rush to judgment because of preconceived notions.

And instead of recognizing the wrong, most posters in this thread have the anti-American, anti-democratic ideal that because he wore a hat with the President's campaign slogan on it, that he invited any ill which might come to him. You have to admit how horrific that is. You simply have to. You're a smart guy.
  #346  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:31 PM
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The hypocrisy burns.
Do you understand that if Bob and Jeff are both liberals, and Bob says X, while Jeff says, Y, that's not actually hypocrisy?
  #347  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:34 PM
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However, many more on your side have lost your minds.
Cite???

How can you possibly say that? How are you quantifying it? Do you remember the insane reaction from "your side" to the Parkland kids just for engaging as citizens and getting involved in politics after their friends were killed?

The absolute irony of a post complaining about unreasonably criticizing people for political beliefs and including that.
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  #348  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:41 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post

And instead of recognizing the wrong, most posters in this thread have the anti-American, anti-democratic ideal that because he wore a hat with the President's campaign slogan on it, that he invited any ill which might come to him. You have to admit how horrific that is. You simply have to. You're a smart guy.
[sorry, couldn't stay away]

It is indeed sad that the name of our President or his campaign slogan has come to represent hatred, ignorance and support for incompetence. People are going to react poorly if you go out in public with a "Fuck the Police," "I'm with stupid," or "MAGA" hat on. It's just a fact of life in a democracy. Of course that doesn't mean someone should be the subject of violent threats of any kind. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard anyone state "he invited any ill will which might come to him." I've heard people say that he and his school should be ridiculed and shamed for supporting the asshole in the White House. You don't have to agree with that, but I don't find it "horrific."
  #349  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:54 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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You should hold everyone accountable who says that support of the President is not merely a political position of which you disagree but hatred or fascism which needs to be excised from the discourse in regular society.
I don't understand. If I call the President a racist -- because that's what he is -- am I to blame for random Internet whackadoodles threatening violence?

Quote:
Because one guy that is a Trump supporter sent bombs, then that means that it is Trump's fault that he sent bombs. What are you at about 3 of 47,000,000 Trump voters that have bombed people? That is absurd logic and I know you can do better than that.
No, you aren't following it at all. People who embrace racism and violence are embracing Trumpism. So many Klanners and neo-Nazis and whatnot truly believe that Trump is one of them, and they are encouraged to go out and do crazy things.

You can decide for yourself whether Trump the individual is responsible for this or not - that's a perfectly fine debate to have. But who are the radical elements on the left who are (a) committing acts of politically motivated violence and (b) are thinking they are acting in concert with Democratic leaders?

Okay, maybe you think Antifa is the world's biggest threat. Personally I think they are kooks, but you right-wingers are inflating them because you're scared of everything that isn't in a red hat, khakis, and polo shirts. But Antifa isn't exactly in line with Clinton, Obama, Warren, etc. They are OPPOSED to "moderates" like them.

So once again, who on the left is linked to violence? Name names. I can name the ones on the right, for sure.
  #350  
Old 01-24-2019, 04:24 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
[It is indeed sad that the name of our President or his campaign slogan has come to represent hatred, ignorance and support for incompetence. People are going to react poorly if you go out in public with a "Fuck the Police," "I'm with stupid," or "MAGA" hat on. It's just a fact of life in a democracy.
And anyone who wears anything with BLM on it is announcing his or her support for the murder of police. We know this is the case, because I say so.

That's just a fact of life in a democracy. If people lie about you, harass you in public, try to get you expelled from school, well, that's no more than to be expected.

Regards,
Shodan
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