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  #151  
Old 02-21-2018, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacquernagy View Post
I really doubt that the people you've mentioned did it for the attention.
The point was that old mass murderers got plenty of press. Lizzie Borden, if she did it, didn't do it for attention. Given the coverage of the Ripper killings, I wouldn't doubt that he did. In any case the killers who kill themselves might have had other motives, since they didn't stick around to get the attention. This most recent one seems to have had issues with the school among other things.
  #152  
Old 02-21-2018, 09:13 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
It's like saying what is the cause of housefires? Is it that houses contain so many flamable items? Well, there's that but also the fact that there's so much oxygen everywhere.
I like this thought.

Meme version: Blaming everything but guns for gun violence is like blaming oxygen for housefires.
  #153  
Old 02-24-2018, 06:52 AM
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Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I like this thought.

Meme version: Blaming everything but guns for gun violence is like blaming oxygen for housefires.
And publishing statistics about Skittles cavities and calling Skittles "the oxygen of Skittles cavities" is not meme-tastic?

Why is "gun violence" a metric beyond hoplophobia?
  #154  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:34 AM
Martini Enfield Martini Enfield is offline
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Teenagers can have a tough time all over the world, and there are a number of other first-world countries where they potentially have access to firearms (Canada, Australia, and New Zealand for example) but don't decide to use them to shoot up a school.

Mental health is a huge issue when it comes to mass shootings because sane people don't shoot other people because voices in their head tell them to, or they'll show everyone who laughed at them, or whatever.

Part of it is also that guns are generally seen as tools or sporting goods in places like Australia and NZ (and, I understand, Canada) - they're not owned for self-defence or because a 200 year old parchment says they can.

The other thing is mental health treatment is free (to varying extents) in countries with Universal Health Care - which means people can get help before they get to the going off the deep end part. Then you've got the inequality thing too - I don't think there's many other 1st world countries where so many people's lives can just suck so spectacularly that there's no way out, no help, and no prospect of things getting better because the deck is stacked agains them - all while living right next door to people who live the sort of lives you see on TV sitcoms all the time.

It would be interesting if the US Federal Government said "Anything that looks like a modern-era assault rifle is banned" - so no AR-15 or AK-47 appearance rifles, but Ruger Mini-14s and M1 Garands and SKS rifles are A-OK.

Would mass shooters suddenly start switching to the "non-banned" rifles, or would there be a reduction? I mean, no-one has any idea what to do at this point so regardless of whether the plan works it would provide some useful data for the next step (even if the next step is "Hey, it worked. OK, let's leave it alone now.")
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  #155  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:56 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by Martini Enfield View Post
Part of it is also that guns are generally seen as tools or sporting goods in places like Australia and NZ (and, I understand, Canada) - they're not owned for self-defence or because a 200 year old parchment says they can.
Not just "self defense". For many Americans, there is a strong association between guns and "freedom". They like to think that a gun allows them to not have to depend on the government for protection, or will even provide protection from a tyrannical government. IMHO, it's part of a larger American attitude of "fuck everyone else", which is part of the problem.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini Enfield View Post
Would mass shooters suddenly start switching to the "non-banned" rifles, or would there be a reduction? I mean, no-one has any idea what to do at this point so regardless of whether the plan works it would provide some useful data for the next step (even if the next step is "Hey, it worked. OK, let's leave it alone now.")
Mass shooters could conceivably switch to hunting rifles or pistols. It would still save lives though as even semi-auto hunting rifles are more unwieldy than AR-15s at close range and pistol rounds are less destructive than rifle rounds and have less range and accuracy.
  #156  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:40 AM
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How many millions of Americans are diagnosed with some mental illness? Many of those wouldn't be a danger even if armed with a gun. Was Nikolas Cruz ever diagnosed with mental illness? Some people are just assholes. (Is "asshole-ism" even a category in DSM-5?) But there were many people who knew that Nikolas Cruz, regardless of any psychiatric report, should not be allowed to handle loaded guns. In some states, e.g. California, his mother would have had the right to petition a judge to deny him his "2nd Amendment right." But Florida is not one of those states ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Krupe View Post
... [] we still have this Wild West mentality--in Dodge City, KS, you can visit a wax museum dedicated to practitioners of the shooting arts:...
We like our guns. We like to think it's part of our heritage. It's in our DNA. It's who we are. (So the thinking goes.)
During the "Golden Age of the American Gun", gun control was MUCH stricter than it is today!

The carrying of firearms was strictly prohibited in Dodge City..
Quote:
Originally Posted by N.Y. Times Opinion
[In Dodge City] Laws were drawn up banning livestock on the sidewalks; horses above the ground floor; public drunkenness and disorderly conduct; the carrying of guns within the town limits (all who entered had to place their weapons on pegs provided in most public places), and the discharge of firearms within the city limits except on such holidays as the Fourth of July and New Year's Day.

The gun toter was subject to being shot on sight by the town police. Strict gun control was vital for public safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sign in Wichita, Kansas 1873
“Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check.”
  #157  
Old 02-24-2018, 12:25 PM
Leo Krupe Leo Krupe is offline
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Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Not just "self defense". For many Americans, there is a strong association between guns and "freedom". They like to think that a gun allows them to not have to depend on the government for protection, or will even provide protection from a tyrannical government. IMHO, it's part of a larger American attitude of "fuck everyone else", which is part of the problem.
I think there's much truth to this. America has this idea that we're soooo independent and we don't need anyone else. From the Declaration of Independence to the stereotypical idea of "lifting yourself by your own bootstraps," we have to do it on our own, even if that means forsaking "common sense" (whatever that means).

In fact, this is an idea I'm kicking around, trying to put it in a cohesive pattern--that given our history and culture, I'm not really sure if there is a good solution other than time. America is considered a young country (compared to most of Europe or China), that we haven't had a chance to "mature" out of the idea of violence solving everything.
  #158  
Old 02-24-2018, 01:02 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
And publishing statistics about Skittles cavities and calling Skittles "the oxygen of Skittles cavities" is not meme-tastic?
No, that would make a terrible meme. It doesn't make any sense, and unlike guns being involved in every act of gun violence, skittles are not involved in all cavities.
Quote:
Why is "gun violence" a metric beyond hoplophobia?
Because you don't have to be a hoplophobe in order to prefer that fewer people killed killed by guns. The idea of labeling anyone who would like to see less gun violence a hoplophobe is a useful, if very disingenuous tactic of the right. It ranks right up there with the mind reading skills.
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