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  #51  
Old 11-02-2017, 08:21 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
Una has mentioned in other threads that there are still a lot of shrinks out there who think it's a mental illness; oddly enough, they also look at the numbers and tend to realize that transition is a near-perfect cure for the suicidal tendencies and therefore are more likely to support transition as the only effect treatment.
What are the studies that establish the suicide rates of pre- and post-transition transgender people, that show that transitioning is a nearly perfect cure?

TIA.

Regards,
Shodan
  #52  
Old 11-02-2017, 08:31 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Just 8 people out of 25 in a random sampling. Some days it's so bad I have to tune out, because otherwise it's overwhelming.
You have my deep sympathy - it must be excruciating feeling the weight of other people's problems as well as your own.

Don't you give up.
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  #53  
Old 11-02-2017, 08:52 AM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Point of order: PTSD is a mental illness (or rather a "disorder" - I'm not sure if there is a nuanced difference between an "illness" and a "disorder" or whether the latter has replaced the former in common parlance) and one can draw a straight line between serving in Vietnam and suffering from PTSD. Comparisons to transgenderism are, at best, either very, very broad or very, very murky.
I think the comparison to soldiers is very apt. A lot of trans people probably are suffering from PTSD because of the way transgendered people get treated in society. Society practically does to them what Charles Boyer did to Ingrid Bergman in Gaslight.

Although, I was heartened two weeks ago when I met a 10-year-old trans girl, who was being allowed to live as she wanted by her parents. She had long hair and girl's clothes, and at her request, her parents called her by the name they would have called her by if she'd been born without the "boy parts." As she explained it, and she was pretty articulate for 10, she wasn't sure if she was just a regular girl, or "non-binary." She said she didn't like skirts, but she liked leggings, and jeans from the girls' department.

I told her not liking skirts meant nothing, because I didn't like them either; the one I was wearing that day was out of respect for my mother.

She was in a situation with a lot of people (my mother's memorial) whom had not seen her since she was a toddler, so she felt the need to explain herself, and she actually brought the topic up.

I thought her parents could not have been handling it better.

So there's hope for the future.
  #54  
Old 11-02-2017, 09:09 AM
octopus octopus is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Sure, but the same could be argued to a lesser extent for left-handedness, for example. Not being able to use standard tools and layouts with the same facility as the right-handed majority is to some extent a disability. So is, say, being tone-deaf or having color vision deficiency.

But because such "abnormalities" are relatively trivial in their impacts, we just include them in the category of normal variation and provide technological solutions to cope with the functional limitations that they entail, rather than insisting that they are "mistakes" and "illnesses" that need to be "treated".


If transgender people want to not be transgender, and at some point neuroscience comes up with "nanotech magic snakes" or some other solution that can successfully change their brain structure to bring that about, fine. In the meantime, though, ISTM that we as a society will be much better off just including transgender identity, like left-handedness and color vision deficiency, in the category of normal variation, rather than insisting it's a "mistake" or "illness" or "problem" that needs to be "treated".
If the cure sometimes includes very drastic surgery and chemical intervention my take is something is being treated. If something is being treated then there is a perceived problem by someone. It seems that the issue with labeling is the stigma associated with the label not the accuracy.

With regards to how society treats people, I think people should be left to do as they wish for the most part and society should respect that.
  #55  
Old 11-02-2017, 10:57 AM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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It's all "mentally ill." But transsexuals may be on the lower end of the mentally ill scale. Certainly lower than anyone who thinks about them a lot and gets upset.
  #56  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:00 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I haven't read all 1000 threads on that. Sorry.
Perhaps just a couple? Because this really has been done to death on here, and in the medical world as well. Sure, just like you can find anti-vax physicians, you can find anti-transition physicians. But the established best practice is transition is the cure. Dr. Benjamin, who while not the first nor not the only was the person who exploded this issue into publicity in the 1960's, ultimately was motivated out of compassion to do the least harm. Benjamin, like Hirschfeld before him, did try to "cure" transgender persons with drugs, intensive psychotherapy, negative and positive reinforcement, etc. He found that crossdressers could be discouraged from crossdressing if they were loaded up with some drugs, but ultimately the best option for transgender persons was to transition.

Transition would be neither that controversial nor difficult if most would just cease their laser-like focus on our genitals and get over their fragility over their own masculinity or femininity. We're not born bigots - when I work with classes in school where a young person must transition, 95+% of the kids have the attitude of "so what? Mike was a girl and now he's a boy. Boys rule! We got an extra guy for football now." It's not until the kids go home and tell the parents that suddenly it becomes a "problem." Something we all have to be "deeply, DEEPLY concerned about!" Something that requires segregation, shaming, ostracism, and violence.
  #57  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:10 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
You have my deep sympathy - it must be excruciating feeling the weight of other people's problems as well as your own.

Don't you give up.
Thank you. My Facebook-focused post was just to show that the gender dysphoria isn't the killer for us, not nearly as much as the lack of support and the discrimination. The only thing that will cause me to give up is if Fierra's cancer takes her life.
  #58  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:20 AM
octopus octopus is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Perhaps just a couple? Because this really has been done to death on here, and in the medical world as well. Sure, just like you can find anti-vax physicians, you can find anti-transition physicians. But the established best practice is transition is the cure. Dr. Benjamin, who while not the first nor not the only was the person who exploded this issue into publicity in the 1960's, ultimately was motivated out of compassion to do the least harm. Benjamin, like Hirschfeld before him, did try to "cure" transgender persons with drugs, intensive psychotherapy, negative and positive reinforcement, etc. He found that crossdressers could be discouraged from crossdressing if they were loaded up with some drugs, but ultimately the best option for transgender persons was to transition.

Transition would be neither that controversial nor difficult if most would just cease their laser-like focus on our genitals and get over their fragility over their own masculinity or femininity. We're not born bigots - when I work with classes in school where a young person must transition, 95+% of the kids have the attitude of "so what? Mike was a girl and now he's a boy. Boys rule! We got an extra guy for football now." It's not until the kids go home and tell the parents that suddenly it becomes a "problem." Something we all have to be "deeply, DEEPLY concerned about!" Something that requires segregation, shaming, ostracism, and violence.
I’m not anti or pro transition. However, if science says that the least harm and best outcome is transitioning, if desired, I won’t argue with that. I do believe in the least harm principle with regards to medicine.
  #59  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:34 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
If the cure sometimes includes very drastic surgery and chemical intervention my take is something is being treated.
Really? Because people sometimes get pretty drastic surgery or chemical intervention for purely elective reasons: they want bigger breasts, for example, or increased muscle mass. Nobody says you have to get a doctor to diagnose you with "mammary developmental disorder" or something to obtain that kind of "treatment".

As Una pointed out, if people just stopped being so dogmatic about gender binarism, a lot of the current "problems" surrounding transgender would just go away.
  #60  
Old 11-02-2017, 02:54 PM
octopus octopus is offline
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Really? Because people sometimes get pretty drastic surgery or chemical intervention for purely elective reasons: they want bigger breasts, for example, or increased muscle mass. Nobody says you have to get a doctor to diagnose you with "mammary developmental disorder" or something to obtain that kind of "treatment".

As Una pointed out, if people just stopped being so dogmatic about gender binarism, a lot of the current "problems" surrounding transgender would just go away.
Some forms of body modification do actually indicate mental illness.
  #61  
Old 11-02-2017, 03:10 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Some forms of body modification do actually indicate mental illness.
Sure, but I think we as a society don't do a great job of coming up with consistent criteria to evaluate that.
  #62  
Old 11-02-2017, 03:22 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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If, in general, the population of transgender people seems to you to contain a tangible percent of people whose thinking is mentally impaired, I invite you to make a distinction:

Between conceptualizing of one's self as being of a gender that doesn't match your physical sex, on the one hand, and a set of behaviors related to seeking a physical transition, on the other hand.

a) Do you think it is nutty (delusional, indicative of neurocognitive impairments etc) for a person to conceptualize themselves as being of a gender that doesn't match their physical sex?

this is all in the mind — no behaviors are being mentioned yet, body modifications or otherwise


b) If, for the sake of argument, you think it is entirely within the bounds of rational and reasonable thought for a person to conceptualize themselves as being of a gender that doesn't match their physical sex, is there anything about the set of behaviors involved in seeking transition that do not seem rational and reasonable under those circumstances?

Last edited by AHunter3; 11-02-2017 at 03:23 PM.
  #63  
Old 11-09-2017, 09:10 AM
Blalron Blalron is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
AFAICT, transgender people perceive themselves as a different gender than their genital anatomy indicates not because they're "confused" or "mentally ill", but because that perception reflects something real about their physical brains that differs from the physical brains of most people born with similar genital anatomy
The argument I hear from conservatives is that believing yourself to be a different gender than what you were assigned at birth is "delusional." But I don't think it is. To my knowledge, transgender people are fully aware of the fact that their physical anatomy doesn't match their image of themselves. They aren't confused about any facts. They just FEEL like they are a different gender.

Someone with phantom limb sensations isn't delusional. They know they are missing an arm. But nonetheless they feel like they have one.

Last edited by Blalron; 11-09-2017 at 09:10 AM.
  #64  
Old 11-09-2017, 10:43 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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But people with phantom limbs used to be treated as delusional. We now have some idea why phantom limbs exist, but I'm sure there are still people who think amputees are "imagining" things. And it turns out it has to to with the stumps of those nerves leading to the non-existent limb still firing. It's an action of the nervous system you can't see.

Likewise, some brain dysfunctions are a result of the actions of the central nervous system you can't see at work.

And it looks like there's evidence that transgenderism is, again, a result of something in the brain (part of the central nervous system) you can't see at work - but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

Last edited by Broomstick; 11-09-2017 at 10:46 AM.
  #65  
Old 11-09-2017, 12:36 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Do you have examples of people who experience phantom pain who claim that they have two legs?
Quote:
Likewise, some brain dysfunctions are a result of the actions of the central nervous system you can't see at work.
Correct. Many brain dysfunctions cannot be observed directly.
Quote:
And it looks like there's evidence that transgenderism is, again, a result of something in the brain (part of the central nervous system) you can't see at work - but that doesn't mean it isn't real.
It isn't whether or not it can be directly observed that makes an idea real or not - it is whether or not the idea corresponds to reality.

I cannot directly observe the dysfunction that causes a paranoid schizophrenic believe that space aliens are monitoring his thoughts thru the TV, and I don't doubt that he really believes it. But that doesn't make it real.
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Originally Posted by Blalron
The argument I hear from conservatives is that believing yourself to be a different gender than what you were assigned at birth is "delusional." But I don't think it is. To my knowledge, transgender people are fully aware of the fact that their physical anatomy doesn't match their image of themselves. They aren't confused about any facts. They just FEEL like they are a different gender.
They may not be confused about facts, but they are asserting (on some level) that their feelings are what established their gender, and not the physical facts of anatomy and genotype.

Regards,
Shodan
  #66  
Old 11-09-2017, 12:59 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Do you have examples of people who experience phantom pain who claim that they have two legs?
As Blalron pointed out, the vast majority of transgender people are not suffering from any delusions about their physical anatomy, in the way that your hypothetical amputees with "phantom limb" sensations would be if they claimed that the amputated limb was actually physically present.

Transgender women, for example, are not claiming or imagining that they were born with vaginas when they were actually born with penises. They don't exhibit inaccurate claims or beliefs about what their birth genitals look like.

In some superficial ways it might be easier psychologically if they could believe that their birth genitalia and other physical characteristics corresponded with their gender identity instead of contradicting it, but they can't. That is why many of them seek to change their physical characteristics to match their gender identity.

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Originally Posted by Shodan
I cannot directly observe the dysfunction that causes a paranoid schizophrenic believe that space aliens are monitoring his thoughts thru the TV, and I don't doubt that he really believes it. But that doesn't make it real.
They may not be confused about facts, but they are asserting (on some level) that their feelings are what established their gender, and not the physical facts of anatomy and genotype.
But there's nothing at all intrinsically delusional about such an assertion: it just depends on how society chooses to define "gender". Gender is a social construct, as opposed to anatomical sex, which is a physical characteristic (although not always a completely unambiguously binary one).

As I noted, transgender people don't assert that their feelings of gender identity somehow magically alter their genital anatomy. That would be an objectively falsifiable delusion akin to the schizophrenic's belief about being mind-controlled by the TV.

Instead, what transgender people maintain (and AFAICT modern neuroscience supports this claim) is that their feelings of gender identity are based on the physical reality of their brain structure.

IOW, what primarily makes you "feel like" a man or a woman is not your conscious awareness of your physical penis or vagina, respectively, but rather the structure of certain parts of your brain. For the vast majority of people, these typically "male" and "female" brain structures correlate with having a penis or vagina, respectively. But for a small percentage of people, they don't.

That doesn't make that small percentage of people delusional about their gender identity. Any more than experiencing sexual attraction to men while having a penis makes a gay man delusional about his own gender identity.
  #67  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:24 PM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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And besides, just because you may LOOK like you have an XY or an XX in your genotype doesn't mean you DO. I've seen that something like 90% of people have no real idea what sex they actually are because they assume that their phenotype is determined binarily and they've never had genetic testing done. There are many genetic disorders that make one's physical sex and genetic sex at odds. Not everyone has XX or XY.
  #68  
Old 11-09-2017, 02:05 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
As Blalron pointed out, the vast majority of transgender people are not suffering from any delusions about their physical anatomy, in the way that your hypothetical amputees with "phantom limb" sensations would be if they claimed that the amputated limb was actually physically present.
Transgender people believe they are one gender or another because their feelings do not correspond to their physical reality. It would be the same as if an amputee claimed "I am not an amputee" because he or she had phantom pain - i.e. the feeling that he or she had two legs. We would not accept such a claim from an amputee, because feeling doesn't change the facts.

Actually the claim would be something like "I am not an amputee - I just have one leg" if it were going to be analogous to a transgender person.
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And besides, just because you may LOOK like you have an XY or an XX in your genotype doesn't mean you DO. I've seen that something like 90% of people have no real idea what sex they actually are because they assume that their phenotype is determined binarily and they've never had genetic testing done.
90%? I am going to need a cite on that.

Regards,
Shodan
  #69  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:02 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Transgender people believe they are one gender or another because their feelings do not correspond to their physical reality.
No, transgender people's gender-identification feelings do not correspond to the physical reality of their genitalia and other anatomical sex characteristics.

Current thinking in neurobiology, AFAICT, strongly suggests that transgender people's gender-identification feelings do correspond to the physical reality of the cortical regions and other structures in their brains.

Where you're making your mistake is in incorrectly assuming that genital anatomy and other anatomical sex characteristics reliably correlate to those gendered brain structures. They don't, any more than genital anatomy reliably correlates to sexual orientation.

Some people with penises, for example, are sexually attracted to men, and some people with penises instinctively think of themselves as female in their personal gender identity. Both types of people know perfectly well that it is much more typical and conventionally "normal" for people with penises both to think of themselves as male and to be sexually attracted to women. But that doesn't mean that their feelings to the contrary are in any way a denial of physical reality.

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Originally Posted by Shodan
It would be the same as if an amputee claimed "I am not an amputee" because he or she had phantom pain - i.e. the feeling that he or she had two legs.
No, it would not be the same. Transgender people are not making factually incorrect claims about the physical bodies they were born with. Amputee status depends only on one's bodily physical characteristics. Gender, as it is understood and used by psychologists and neurobiologists today, does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan
Actually the claim would be something like "I am not an amputee - I just have one leg" if it were going to be analogous to a transgender person.
Again, the analogy doesn't make sense because amputee status, unlike gender, depends only on easily identifiable bodily characteristics.

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Originally Posted by Shodan
90%? I am going to need a cite on that.
Does it really surprise you that as much as 90% of people have no definite knowledge of their genetic sex, because they've never had any physical tests to determine it?

I very much doubt that jayjay was trying to claim that as much of 90% of people don't actually fall into the standard XX/XY gender-binary categories. The point is that you can't always tell your genetic-sex category just from your physical anatomy and/or personal gender identity.
  #70  
Old 11-09-2017, 05:56 PM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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I very much doubt that jayjay was trying to claim that as much of 90% of people don't actually fall into the standard XX/XY gender-binary categories. The point is that you can't always tell your genetic-sex category just from your physical anatomy and/or personal gender identity.
YOUR point is exactly what I meant and didn't convey clearly. Unless you've had gene testing done, you don't necessarily know what your sex chromosomes actually are. Not everyone has two, and not everyone who presents as male or female IS.

Last edited by jayjay; 11-09-2017 at 05:57 PM.
  #71  
Old 11-09-2017, 06:25 PM
Miss Brain Problems Miss Brain Problems is offline
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The DSM-V defines gender dysphoria as a mental illness.

So if you ask the established mental health community, then yes, by definition, all transgender folks are mentally ill; the term isn't being used in a negative way here - "Wow, you're so freaking crazy, you mentally ill psycho." - but just as a statement of fact.

If you have gender dysphoria, you are mentally ill, and transitioning is the treatment to help mitigate the effects of that mental illness.

Of course, there are plenty of people who believe that you can be transgender without having gender dysphoria, who reject the mental health establishment's definitions of gender dysphoria, who believe that being transgender is a choice that people can make rather than a congenital or developmental issue, etc. The whole truscum/transmedicalist vs tucute/transculturalist debate, and stuff.
  #72  
Old 11-09-2017, 06:40 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
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Technically you can't get a C-section unless the Ob/Gyn diagnoses the mother as having some type of problem requiring one. So it's definitely a treatment for an illness. The pregnancy may not be an illness by itself, but if the baby's stuck in some way, that's a serious problem.

So getting your genitals carved into a different configuration...same thing. It's not the same thing as getting a tattoo. Surgery has a significant risk of death, so the medical system needs to formally declare that it is necessary.
  #73  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:07 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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So getting your genitals carved into a different configuration...same thing. It's not the same thing as getting a tattoo. Surgery has a significant risk of death, so the medical system needs to formally declare that it is necessary.
As I noted above, though, no medical necessity needs to be formally declared to get your breasts carved into a different configuration. Or even to get your genitals carved into a less drastically different configuration (see, e.g., labiaplasty, vaginoplasty, scrotoplasty).

All these surgeries also carry risks of negative outcomes including infection, sexual dysfunction and death, but people are allowed to choose them with no medical necessity at all.
  #74  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:16 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Technically you can't get a C-section unless the Ob/Gyn diagnoses the mother as having some type of problem requiring one.
Cite? AFAICT, in the US elective caesareans are still permitted although medically discouraged, with probably something less than 3% of all births in the US being elective caesareans requested by the mother rather than recommended by the obstetrician.
  #75  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:20 PM
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Likewise, some brain dysfunctions are a result of the actions of the central nervous system you can't see at work.

And it looks like there's evidence that transgenderism is, again, a result of something in the brain (part of the central nervous system) you can't see at work - but that doesn't mean it isn't real.
But having a brain structure abnormality doesn't preclude a disorder from being classified as a mental illness: autism, ADHD, and childhood schizophrenia are all in the DSM and they are all associated with brain structure abnormalities.
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  #76  
Old 11-09-2017, 10:55 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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Not all abnormalities are considered illnesses, though - being left handed is statistically abnormal, but instead of retraining them to be righties we let let them be lefties, and even make some common tools (like scissors) in versions for their use.

Other things society does not accommodate.

I guess the question is which sort of society you think proper - one that accommodates transgender people or one that doesn't.
  #77  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:20 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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I guess the question is which sort of society you think proper - one that accommodates transgender people or one that doesn't.
Related to this is the question of whether such accommodation has successful outcomes, and how much burden is placed on society by making such accommodation.

Which is why it seems so bizarre to me that we as a society are so reluctant to adopt the incredibly simple and low-effort accommodation of just accepting people's declared gender identities.

For the approximately 15-20% of transgender people who apparently don't want genital surgery, that would pretty much solve the whole problem. And for the rest, it would at least vastly reduce the stress and distress of their gender dysphoria or whatever we want to call it.

You say you identify as a man and want to present as such even though you don't have a penis? Okay, you're a man. You identify and present as a woman? You're a woman. There, that was easy.

For the tiny minority of situations when the law or some other authority (e.g., sports competition leagues) is actually going to have to make decisions based on a transgender person's birth-assigned gender, we can work out the rules as we go along. In the meantime, the default is that you are the gender you say you are, and it's nobody else's business what's in your underwear unless they're your doctor or you're in a consensual underwear-exploring situation with them.

Problem (well, at least a significant part of the problem) solved. You're welcome.
  #78  
Old 11-10-2017, 07:40 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Does it really surprise you that as much as 90% of people have no definite knowledge of their genetic sex, because they've never had any physical tests to determine it?
The notion that someone does not know their genetic sex without testing is what I am questioning.

If you have a penis, the gigantically overwhelming majority of the time, you have XY chromosomes. The idea that "you can't be sure without being tested" is absurd.

Regards,
Shodan
  #79  
Old 11-10-2017, 07:54 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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I think if you're born with a healthy body, but you can't be happy without medically altering your body's appearance, then that's a mental illness.

But so what? We have medical treatments to get a person's body aligned with what their mind needs it to be. When you get your sex properly assigned, then you don't have the mental illness anymore.

To me the more interesting question is why there is so much more empathy for gender-reassignees than for say, women who get breast implants. Is it a mental illness for a woman to be obsessed with having their breasts enlarged? Are people or society better served when medicine is casually complicit about feeding the cultural fetish for big boobs?

I wonder what it would look like if we had a world where men could be born with women's brains and everybody could just be OK with whatever that means for gender.
  #80  
Old 11-10-2017, 07:58 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I think if you're born with a healthy body, but you can't be happy without medically altering your body's appearance, then that's a mental illness.

But so what? We have medical treatments to get a person's body aligned with what their mind needs it to be. When you get your sex properly assigned, then you don't have the mental illness anymore.

To me the more interesting question is why there is so much more empathy for gender-reassignees than for say, women who get breast implants. Is it a mental illness for a woman to be obsessed with having their breasts enlarged? Are people or society better served when medicine is casually complicit about feeding the cultural fetish for big boobs?

I wonder what it would look like if we had a world where men could be born with women's brains and everybody could just be OK with whatever that means for gender.
I might see your point if women routinely killed themselves over their breast size.
  #81  
Old 11-10-2017, 08:35 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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I might see your point if women routinely killed themselves over their breast size.
OK. Let me reword, taking into consideration that transpeople kill themselves more often:

I think if you're born with a healthy body, but you feel like killing yourself without medically altering your body's appearance, then that's a mental illness.

More agreeable? If not, then what's your objection really about?
  #82  
Old 11-10-2017, 08:49 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I think if you're born with a healthy body, but you feel like killing yourself without medically altering your body's appearance, then that's a mental illness.
OK, let's take that a premise.

Then the question becomes what is the most effective way to treat such a mental illness? For a long time the treatment was to try to convince these people to live in the body they were born with. The results have been a lot of suicides.

We are now trying to bring their bodies more in line with their mental state. If that results in fewer suicides and better functioning for these people then it can be argued that that is the appropriate treatment as it relieves suffering and prevents harm.

Of course, there is the problem that at least some of the mental problems suffered by the transgender people is due to prejudice, discrimination, and other people reacting to them as if they were a crawling bug on the dinner table. I'm sure that's a confounding factor.
  #83  
Old 11-10-2017, 09:19 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
AFAICT, transgender people perceive themselves as a different gender than their genital anatomy indicates not because they're "confused" or "mentally ill", but because that perception reflects something real about their physical brains that differs from the physical brains of most people born with similar genital anatomy.
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
If transgender people want to not be transgender, and at some point neuroscience comes up with "nanotech magic snakes" or some other solution that can successfully change their brain structure to bring that about, fine. In the meantime, though, ISTM that we as a society will be much better off just including transgender identity, like left-handedness and color vision deficiency, in the category of normal variation, rather than insisting it's a "mistake" or "illness" or "problem" that needs to be "treated".
There is new research that indicates the lack of any structural differences between a "male brain" and a female brain" — which has implications for trans people and cis people as well. I'll be blogging on that theme on Monday.
  #84  
Old 11-10-2017, 10:18 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
We are now trying to bring their bodies more in line with their mental state. If that results in fewer suicides and better functioning for these people then it can be argued that that is the appropriate treatment as it relieves suffering and prevents harm.
OK. You win that argument. It's a mental illness, and there's an appropriate treatment to reduce their suffering. I think I already said as much.
  #85  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:49 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
We are now trying to bring their bodies more in line with their mental state. If that results in fewer suicides and better functioning for these people then it can be argued that that is the appropriate treatment as it relieves suffering and prevents harm.
If.

Regards,
Shodan
  #86  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:10 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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Yes. If. There were several if's in my post.

If we could get some solid, objective research on all this it would be grand, but there are all sorts of hangups involved with that.
  #87  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:18 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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If there were people who risked blindness in order to have their eyes operated on to make them blue-eyed, and who were suicidal if they could not become blue-eyed, I can see how that could look kind of nutty to some observers.

But suppose blue-eyed people were treated in a massively different way than (let's say) brown-eyed people?

Well, that would be silly, to treat people massively different on the basis of their eye color, wouldn't it? And some folks might say that, instead of changing people's eyes (at nontrivial expense and with medical risks etc), we should change society, precisely because it's silly to treat people differently based on their eye color.

But suppose the tendency to do so — to treat people differently based on their eye color — was really deepy rooted, culturally ingrained, with zillions of people declaring "But they really are different, of course they should be treated differently, what's wrong with you knee-jerk politically-correct puppets?", and so on? Changing society, in that situation, kind of starts to look less easy than changing one's eyeballs. Especially if you want to get there in your own lifetime instead of spending your life in a perhaps-futile attempt to eradicate a deeply embedded social belief system and its resultant behaviors.

And besides, what if there really was a tendency for a difference to exist, and not just a batshit insane cultural notion that it did? You stop and realize you aren't 100% sure, because so many people do think there's a difference, at least a general-rule / aggregate difference-between-the-populations kind of thing. So maybe these folks who want their eyeballs changed are outliers, misfits among those who share their eye color who would fit in quite nicely among the blue-eyed folks. Or would, if they had blue eyes.

Yeah, sure, just because it could be true doesn't mean it is true, and maybe to your perceptions it doesn't seem very bloody likely. Nope, there's no freaking difference between the blue-eyed and the brown-eyed (etc), you're pretty damn sure of that. But there's no denying that zillions of people think there's such a difference, and they do behave accordingly. And among those who believe in such a difference are a large percent of those who seek these eyeball operations. Do you wish to mount a campaign to convince them that they shouldn't do this because there's no difference, it's just cultural bullshit, and therefore they should just accept that they are who they are, brown (or grey or whatever) eyes and all?

But let's say you did that — successfully, I mean. And they still tell you "OK, now convince the other zillions of people, including the blue-eyed folks we want to fit in with, because they see us as Different with a capital D because they believe there is such a difference." And they say, "Built in innate difference or not, having this operation is going to mean I am perceived as who I really am. You say that is a bullshit perception on their part, based on erroneous beliefs, but the fact remains, people believe this stuff. And they way they will perceive me post-op will be a far better fit for who I am than how I am perceived with the eyes I was born with".

OK, point out the crazy thinking.
  #88  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:29 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
OK, point out the crazy thinking.
None of it's crazy. Mental illness is not 'crazy' or 'nutty', if that's what you were alluding to.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 11-10-2017 at 01:30 PM.
  #89  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:30 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The notion that someone does not know their genetic sex without testing is what I am questioning.

If you have a penis, the gigantically overwhelming majority of the time, you have XY chromosomes. The idea that "you can't be sure without being tested" is absurd.
That makes no sense. Are you using some peculiar definitions of the terms "know" and "sure" that you're not explaining to us?

Nobody's disagreeing that, for example, the vast majority of people who believe that they have XY chromosomes, based on their physical anatomy and their gender self-identification, actually do have XY chromosomes.

But since there is a small percentage of people who, for instance, sincerely believe from their physical anatomy and their gender self-identification that they have XY chromosomes but actually have XXY chromosomes without realizing it, it is not possible to definitively know or to be 100% objectively sure that you have XY chromosomes without genetic testing.

If what you're trying to say is merely "Having a penis correlates very very very strongly with having XY chromosomes, and the vast majority of people who infer from the fact of their having a penis that they have XY chromosomes are absolutely correct", then yeah, nobody's arguing with that.

But that's not the same as claiming that somebody can incontrovertibly know or be sure what their genetic sex is without genetic testing.
  #90  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:41 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I think if you're born with a healthy body, but you feel like killing yourself without medically altering your body's appearance, then that's a mental illness.
I don't disagree exactly, but I just think that doesn't fully take into account the callous Catch-22 that society's gender-binary conventions foist on trans people.

Transgender woman: I have a penis but it feels natural to me to think of myself as a woman. I want to live and be accepted as a woman.

Society: Sorry freak, you can't be a real woman unless you have tits and a vagina! Ha ha ha ha weirdo freak!

Transgender woman: Okay, I want treatment and surgery to get tits and a vagina so I can live and be accepted as a woman.

Society: Why are you trying to mutilate your healthy body, you freak?! Off to the funny farm with you! Ha ha ha weirdo freak!

It doesn't surprise me at all that so many transgender people are tempted to kill themselves. What surprises and impresses me is that they don't end up killing more of the rest of us who are doing this to them.
  #91  
Old 11-10-2017, 04:41 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
None of it's crazy. Mental illness is not 'crazy' or 'nutty', if that's what you were alluding to.
Umm, The entire premise here is that "these people are not behaving like people whose brains are working in a non-mentally ill fashion".

Unless you anticipate sticking a probe into someone's brain and examining it for those alleged "chemical imbalances", exactly how the fuck else would you be diagnosing "mental illness" aside from inferring from their conclusions and decisions that their cognitive processes are a bit off?
  #92  
Old 11-10-2017, 04:44 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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My point is that the behavior being tagged as "indicative of them being mentally ill" makes perfect sense in context. It is entirely rational behavior. Reread post# 87.

Last edited by AHunter3; 11-10-2017 at 04:45 PM.
  #93  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:32 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
But that's not the same as claiming that somebody can incontrovertibly know or be sure what their genetic sex is without genetic testing.
Indeed, and he would typically be the first one to try to score pedantic points if it were an issue near and dear to him. The Intersex Society of America has a table showing that intersex conditions are not nearly so rare as people would like them to be.
Quote:
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births
In a typical high school of 1,000 kids, 10 of them wouldn't be incontrovertibly "male" or "female," and 1-2 of them would have had to have surgery as a result. This is actually a greater rate than that of transgender persons for whom their degree of "transness" is such that we will seek medical transition (about 1 in 4,000 for AMAB; about 1 in 8,000 for AFAB). But fewer than the number of people under the greater umbrella of transgender.

I don't even know if I should address the fallacy in the thread of the motivation for suicide, as you already did address it. But in our practice, where the therapists have treated a total of more than a thousand transgender patients over a total of something like 50 years of practice, they have never seen a person nor heard of one locally who committed suicide solely due to body dysmorphia. It played a contributing factor, but in general the top reasons seem to be:

* Loss of family support.
* Loss of spouse and children's support.
* Loss of career.
* Poverty.
* Denial to basic services.
* Maltreatment by others.
* Abuse by others.
* Rape and violence.
* Fear of multiple factors above.
  #94  
Old 11-11-2017, 06:36 PM
SeniorCitizen007 SeniorCitizen007 is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
First of all you have to define what mental illness is.
The 1959 Midtown Manhattan Survey found that 81.5% of people had some form of psychpathology. 23.4% were severely impaired. In the 70s it was claimed that 66% of Americans suffered from psychotic or neurotic disorders into which they had no insight. President Carter's wife said: "My primary concern is the mental health of the American people". Around that time several journalists speculated as to what would happen if a psychiatrist became president. In 1999 the Surgeon General of the United States declared that "All mental illness is biological". Around the same time psychiatrist Dr David Kaiser commented: "Psychiatry has lost its mind, and with it the minds of its patients"
  #95  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:11 PM
mistymage mistymage is offline
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I'm wondering why accepting a third gender (or fourth, fifth and beyond) bothers people so much? It's not like anyone who identifies outside of what is "normal" would want to have relationships with people who can't accept/dislike/hate the concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

I could not care less about who does who, how someone dresses or what they do to their own body since I am in a committed Hetero relationship.

Last edited by mistymage; 11-11-2017 at 09:14 PM.
  #96  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:22 AM
Hector_St_Clare Hector_St_Clare is offline
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As a lot of very smart people have been pointing out for a while now, mental illness is socially defined. American society right now is at least at official levels, accepting of gender dysphoric people, so no, it's not a mental illness.

Is social anxiety a mental illness? How about depression, or ADHD? Because probably most people I know have one of those to some degree.

Last edited by Hector_St_Clare; 11-12-2017 at 12:22 AM.
  #97  
Old 11-13-2017, 06:42 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
There is new research that indicates the lack of any structural differences between a "male brain" and a female brain" — which has implications for trans people and cis people as well. I'll be blogging on that theme on Monday.
Just did. (It's in IMHO)
  #98  
Old 11-13-2017, 07:31 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Honestly, you are not going to make any headway with this person on any argument on any subject using any rhetorical or logical method. Best to just say, "Mmm, interesting" and change the subject. The whole MO of these political commentators is to make provocative unsupported statements, usually about some "other" that they consider beneath themselves. People who are fans of this type of discourse are to be avoided if possible.
Ben Shapiro is one of the more lucid, logical conservatives today. If you can't handle him them you simply cannot communicate with conservatives.
  #99  
Old 11-13-2017, 07:47 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
8) Very lonely gender non-conforming person who hasn't had a second date in 3 years (since they came out) because when they reveal their gender identity on the first date, the other half heads for the hills. Has posted about "giving up."
No doubt being transgender is tough. I don't think society has a very good understanding of that transgender means. I know I don't.

BUT, I don't know what you do about rejection by people who don't want date a transgender person. I don't think you can blame people for that.
  #100  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:32 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
BUT, I don't know what you do about rejection by people who don't want date a transgender person. I don't think you can blame people for that.
No of course not, but if we as a society stop making such a big deal about transgender identity (and gender norms in general), then the number of people open to dating transgender people will naturally increase. We as a society don't get to tell individuals what their dating preferences should be, but it's a fact that general trends in dating preferences follow societal norms.

Back in the days of Jim Crow, for example, a large proportion of white Americans had very negative feelings about dating a black person. Now that our society is more (though still far from entirely) integrated, many more white people are willing to date interracially.

Nobody went around forcing or exhorting individual white people to date black people if they didn't want to, and nobody's going to make cisgender individuals date transgender people if they don't want to. But in all such cases, societal acceptance generally results in higher levels of individual acceptance.
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