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  #51  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:03 PM
RickG RickG is offline
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If he's trying to make American Jews more likely to support him, I don't think it'll work. The ones who think this is a good idea already vote Republican, and the ones like me, who think it's really unwise, will probably be even more repelled. This stinks of the influence of Apocalyptic Christian movements.

I am a Zionist. I love Israel. I have plane tickets for a visit next summer that will be my third in 5 years. But until there's a two-state peace, I think this declaration is likely to do more harm than good. Sadly, I'm glad we paid for trip insurance, just in case we have to bail on our plans after this.
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  #52  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:08 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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And this recently released article with a bunch of information about why Israel is hesitant about helping Trump: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017...ump-intel-slip
I don't think Trump is capable of that type of strategic calculation.

Trump promised he would do it, his base wants it, and now some Washington Smartypants are telling him he can't do it. Trump is the boss and is smarter than all those people, and he does what he wants.

That's probably about it, I would think.
  #53  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:18 PM
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Kushner is also reported to be lobbying for the Falkland Islands to be recognized as the capital of Argentina.
  #54  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:27 PM
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Elvis:

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The move does eliminate the traditional US claim to be an "honest broker" for the region
Quite frankly, it probably makes the US the MOST honest broker in the region. Anyone who has been giving the Palestinians false hopes that the Israelis will ever give up Jerusalem is, if not dishonest, deluded.
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  #55  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:36 PM
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Can't help but think US foreign policy is determined by who has been nice to the President, plus how can the President get the most attention.
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  #56  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:55 PM
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After this success, Trump will be sending his son-in-law to Pakistan to deal with the conflict in Kashmir - that will be known as the Hindu-Kushner. ..
Who's got the rope?
  #57  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:56 PM
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I don't think Trump is capable of that type of strategic calculation.
Kushner is leading this. While Kushner could bone up on his history, he's clearly not dumb.

I suspect that the Israeli position is that they don't much care if the rest of the Middle East goes to hell and millions of people die. They can hold their own borders and expand during/after the chaos.

Kushner is either holding the same view or isn't aware of historical situations that are possibly similar, and how they turned out.

Though, I should say, there is some chance that it could succeed. I just don't expect so. While Bismarck may have failed to keep the peace long-term, leading to WWI, if we look at the Cold War, we can say that if you hold things static for long enough, you can wait for a peaceful regime to come in and start patching things over. It's just a matter of being consistent, open, and keeping on for as long as it takes, without giving up.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-06-2017 at 05:58 PM.
  #58  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:59 PM
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Dear President Trump Fix it Handyman:

I have discovered a huge yellow jacket hornet nest back behind the garage. Its enormous, and I worry about kids and pets. What should I do?
(signed) Bugged in Pennsylvania

Dear Bugged:

Step 1. Stick your dick in it.....
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  #59  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:10 PM
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Sage Rat:

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Kushner is either holding the same view or isn't aware of historical situations that are possibly similar, and how they turned out.
I think you're underestimating him.

I think he has met with enough Sunni Arab leaders - the countries that are scared of Iran and have been quietly moving closer to Israel - to decide that these countries are finding it in their own best interests to dial down the anti-Israel hostility, and that moves like the Jerusalem one can be made with relatively little adverse effect. Yes, the Palestinians will be up in arms, but let's face it, they've rioted for way less. They'll get it out of their system, life will return to normal, and Trump will have a foreign-policy win to his account.
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  #60  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:31 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Quite frankly, it probably makes the US the MOST honest broker in the region. Anyone who has been giving the Palestinians false hopes that the Israelis will ever give up Jerusalem is, if not dishonest, deluded.
Where's the honesty in Israel's position there? Is Israel honest enough yet to admit it considers everything west of the Jordan to be part of it? Is Israel honest enough yet to accept what that means for its future?

A broker, honest or not, can only work with parties who are both willing to negotiate and compromise. The US has now just joined with the intransigence of one and abandoned the other.
  #61  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:52 PM
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Is Israel honest enough yet to admit it considers everything west of the Jordan to be part of it?
Are you kidding? Israel never claimed otherwise. Rabin, Peres and most of the rest of the peace camp never believed that they were giving the Palestinians their land "back" - instead, the way they saw it was that they were giving Israeli land to the Palestinians for the sake of peace, security and human rights. They were always very clear-eyed about it.... and yet, they still got things done. Because really, what difference does it make? Ideally, we'll believe that we're giving them our land, they'll believe that they're getting their land back, and in the end, God willing, both sides will be happy.
  #62  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:11 PM
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(1) How's that workin' out for ya? and (2) What do the Palestinians think of that, or does it matter to you?

Maybe it doesn't; Israel and the US both have now decided it's all one country, with an Arab majority. The issue now is apartheid, and the US can no longer even temper it.
  #63  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:20 PM
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(1) How's that workin' out for ya? and (2) What do the Palestinians think of that, or does it matter to you?
(1) Right now, not so great. Hopefully we'll vote someone in next election who will be willing to take some risks, make some sacrifices.

(2) There's nothing Israel can do to make the Palestinians think worse of it than they already do. Hopefully, they'll be able to put aside their feelings and do the smart thing - accept land for peace, even if it isn't all the land they want.
  #64  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:38 PM
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While Kushner could bone up on his history, he's clearly not dumb.
Premise unsupported by facts in evidence.

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  #65  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:23 PM
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Elvis:

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A broker, honest or not, can only work with parties who are both willing to negotiate and compromise. The US has now just joined with the intransigence of one and abandoned the other.
Saves plenty of time. Do you realize how much time Bill Clinton wasted cajoling a peace plan before he realized Arafat would never give an inch on the important issues? Maybe Trump's not so dumb after all.
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  #66  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:24 PM
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Premise unsupported by facts in evidence.

Stranger
https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/24/polit...ion/index.html

Reads smart enough to me.
  #67  
Old 12-06-2017, 10:19 PM
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Why would the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel cause S.A. to condemn Israel? Israel isn't changing anything, they've claimed it as their capital all along. Relations between S.A. and Israel have been steadily improving and look to remain that way with each vehemently opposed to Iran.
The House of Saud has to be concerned with extremists - not just the Shiites in the East but the Sunni extremists elsewhere (Al Qaeda, etc). By doing this, they're energizing the fanatics in their realm. It also gives the Iranians (Hezbollah) an opportunity to come to the aid of the Palestinians and gain wider influence.

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It would be hard for relations between the U.S. and Turkey to deteriorate any further and still remain allies within NATO. I doubt recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital would even factor in. Turkey has already been cozying up to Russia and Iran and completed the purchase of advanced Russian air-defense systems. There were also the recent revelations that Erdogan/Turkey was helping Iran evade U.S. sanctions.
I agree that US-Turkey relations are already badly damaged, but it's still wise to salvage what we can, NATO ally or not. This will only intensify the growing distrust between the two countries.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:30 AM
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A broker, honest or not, can only work with parties who are both willing to negotiate and compromise. The US has now just joined with the intransigence of one and abandoned the other.
You seem to implicitly be saying that the Palestinians have been much more willing to compromise than the Israelis.

If so, that's an extremely questionable position to take either based on either recent events or history.

From the Israeli POV they were repeatedly ready to compromise in the 30s, 40, and 60s and had the Palestinians ever once accepted the Israeli position at that time, they'd actually have a much, much larger viable Palestinian state than they'll ever get now.

I'm sure you're familiar with Abba Eban's famous quip about how "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
  #69  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:32 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Elvis:



Saves plenty of time. Do you realize how much time Bill Clinton wasted cajoling a peace plan before he realized Arafat would never give an inch on the important issues? Maybe Trump's not so dumb after all.
Arafat is no longer the Palestinians leader and despite his obsessive insistence that the PLO was "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" it never was either.
  #70  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:56 AM
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Ibn Warraq:

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Arafat is no longer the Palestinians leader and despite his obsessive insistence that the PLO was "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" it never was either.
1) And Clinton is no longer president of the United States nor actively engaged in getting Middle Eastern leaders to talk to one another. But what I wrote was historically correct.
2) Abbas is no different, policy-wise, from Arafat in any meaningful way. He was Arafat's deputy when the former was alive, and does what he would have done if he'd still been alive, no more, no less.
3) Maybe not, but none with more willingness to negotiate peace with Israel has ever come forward to declare such intention. That being the case, what I said about not wasting time with Arafat (or his successor) goes ever more so for any other known entity that purports to speak on behalf of the collective body of Palestinian Arabs.
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  #71  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:24 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Is there a reason you say “Palestinian Arabs” instead of “Palestinians”?
  #72  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:52 AM
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The House of Saud has to be concerned with extremists - not just the Shiites in the East but the Sunni extremists elsewhere (Al Qaeda, etc). By doing this, they're energizing the fanatics in their realm. It also gives the Iranians (Hezbollah) an opportunity to come to the aid of the Palestinians and gain wider influence.



I agree that US-Turkey relations are already badly damaged, but it's still wise to salvage what we can, NATO ally or not. This will only intensify the growing distrust between the two countries.
S.A. has so much going on right now, they wouldn't let this pretty much symbolic gesture/Trump-troll threaten U.S. support and their mutually beneficial relationship with Israel.

Erdogan will probably play it up for the crowd and maybe even cite it for some supposed reaction, but it will be what would have happened anyway. The fundamental issues (in opposite directions) for S.A. and Turkey are just too immense for this Trump-troll to really even register. It could only be used as an excuse.

Last edited by voltaire; 12-07-2017 at 01:53 AM.
  #73  
Old 12-07-2017, 06:23 AM
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S.A. has so much going on right now, they wouldn't let this pretty much symbolic gesture/Trump-troll threaten U.S. support and their mutually beneficial relationship with Israel.

Erdogan will probably play it up for the crowd and maybe even cite it for some supposed reaction, but it will be what would have happened anyway. The fundamental issues (in opposite directions) for S.A. and Turkey are just too immense for this Trump-troll to really even register. It could only be used as an excuse.
You might have a point re: Turkey.

With regard to Saudi Arabia, yes, there is indeed a lot going on at the moment, with one of those things being the fact that Saudis are having to get used to living with an increasingly lower standard of living. Things like a study abroad program and other government assistance were particularly aimed at young Saudi men in no small part because of the aftermath of Al Qaeda and September 11th. The government recognized that it needed to keep young Saudi men busy, either with school or employment. The collapse of the oil economy put a lot of pressure on them economically, and it increases the risk of Sunni-backed radicalism and threats to the regime. I fully agree that this one move alone is probably not going to destroy the regime or US-Saudi relations, but on top of the Muslim ban, on top of the various comments and tweets, it's another sign that the United States is waging a global culture war against Islam, which is inevitably going to put Muslim regimes in a defensive and less cooperative posture. It leaves us a lot less influential in the region, and it's a power vacuum that can be filled by Russia and Iran.

Last edited by asahi; 12-07-2017 at 06:24 AM.
  #74  
Old 12-07-2017, 06:31 AM
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Ibn Warraq:

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Is there a reason you say “Palestinian Arabs” instead of “Palestinians”?
Not particularly. It just sounded better in the sentence following "collective body of".
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  #75  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:47 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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From the Israeli POV they were repeatedly ready to compromise in the 30s, 40, and 60s
Is anyone who was in a position of authority then still in it? Tell us why that matters today or in the future, any more than the political situation under the Ottomans or the Romans does.

Quote:
I'm sure you're familiar with Abba Eban's famous quip about how "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
When do Israel and its jingoists have to stop simply blaming the other guys for everything?

"Fuck anyone who ain't us" has never been a successful long-term strategy for anyone, speaking of what appears to be "the Israeli POV".

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 12-07-2017 at 08:50 AM.
  #76  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:55 AM
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At last a President with the courage to say the Emperor has no clothes. The farce of pretending that Israel's capital is not Jerusalem had to stop. All countries have the right to declare where their capital should be, Israel is no exception. Besides the embassy won't be built in East Jerusalem so I don't see why the Arabs should be pissed other than that they're always pissed. To say this is bad for the peace process is a sick joke. What peace process?
  #77  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:09 AM
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You seem to implicitly be saying that the Palestinians have been much more willing to compromise than the Israelis.

If so, that's an extremely questionable position to take either based on either recent events or history.

From the Israeli POV they were repeatedly ready to compromise in the 30s, 40, and 60s and had the Palestinians ever once accepted the Israeli position at that time, they'd actually have a much, much larger viable Palestinian state than they'll ever get now.

I'm sure you're familiar with Abba Eban's famous quip about how "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
Actually, the quote is often misquoted:

Quote:
The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
As quoted in The Jerusalem Post (18 November 2002); often misquoted as "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." The quote is attributed to Abba Eban after the Geneva Peace Conference with Arab countries (21 December 1973).
Not going to pretend I knew this. I just happened to have learned of the correct version when I looked it up.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:36 AM
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Why should we believe this statement wasn’t written for him by a team of lawyers, skirting, as it does, any ancknowledgement legal and ethical issues that Kushner was not thoughtful enough to avoid in the first place?

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  #79  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:44 AM
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Why should we believe this statement wasn’t written for him by a team of lawyers, skirting, as it does, any ancknowledgement legal and ethical issues that Kushner was not thoughtful enough to avoid in the first place?

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Well, compared to Trump and his actual progeny...that's still clearly a solid step up.

I would tend to doubt that it wasn't written by Kushner, given that it is written in the first person and does have some hints of annoyance/exasperation/etc., none of which seem likely to be components of a document written by a lawyer.

I would certainly expect that it was edited by his lawyers, and I would sense that it was probably largely based on discussions with them.

And that does seem like the smart way to do it.

This isn't to say that he's a genius to compete with all geniuses, and it implies nothing about his personal morality, but I do think it's reasonable to say that out of everyone in the White House, Kushner seems like the only one who isn't a step removed from drooling uncontrollably.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-07-2017 at 09:45 AM.
  #80  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:46 AM
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At last a President with the courage to say the Emperor has no clothes. The farce of pretending that Israel's capital is not Jerusalem had to stop.
I assume you feel just as strongly about the ongoing charade whereby the United States pretends Taiwan isn't a country.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:00 AM
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I assume you feel just as strongly about the ongoing charade whereby the United States pretends Taiwan isn't a country.
That's a pretty good comparison, actually, and the answer is the same: Taiwan is an independent country, and recognizing it as one is the right thing to do. It just isn't necessarily the smart thing to do.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:01 AM
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This isn't to say that he's a genius to compete with all geniuses, and it implies nothing about his personal morality, but I do think it's reasonable to say that out of everyone in the White House, Kushner seems like the only one who isn't a step removed from drooling uncontrollably.
I haven’t seen anything in Kushner’s independent actions and unprepared statements that indicates that he’s smart enough to find the right end of a shitstick. That this still makes him smarter than Don, Jr. and especially Eric is just evidence of how low the standard of acceptability has fallen.

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  #83  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:41 AM
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I get that the US recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capitol and moving the US embassy there from Tel Aviv will inflame tension, but what I don't understand "why" Trump wants to do this - what is in it for him (because, he has demonstrated that is his primary motivator)?
A clue, perhaps...?

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I am also directing the State Department to begin preparation to move the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. This will immediately begin the process of hiring architects, engineers and planners so that a new embassy, when completed, will be a magnificent tribute to peace.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:32 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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I assume you feel just as strongly about the ongoing charade whereby the United States pretends Taiwan isn't a country.
Not sure Israel wants to make that argument since they don't have diplomatic relations with Taiwan either, though like the US they have "non-diplomatic representation"(whatever that means) with it.

That said, I think it's a good comparison in the sense that the right thing to do would be if most countries recognized Taiwan but for obvious reasons doing so would cause more problems than it's worth.

Last edited by Ibn Warraq; 12-07-2017 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:39 PM
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Only 19 countries, all the piss-ant type, recognize Taiwan independence. Not a good retort, that.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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Once a real estate grifter, always a real estate grifter.
What the fuck? There is already a large Consulate General presence in Jeruselum, including a main compound with a historic building, a sizeable annex, and several ancillary facilites in leased buildings. Moving the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jeruselem should be a matter of changing signs and moving the Ambassador’s Residence. Not only would building a new compound be enormously expensive, it would likely require evicting people from existing structures and demolishing them to make space, or locating the compound on the western or southern outskirts of Jeruselem. So much for being the leader of the “party of fiscal responsibility”.

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  #87  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:23 PM
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What the fuck? There is already a large Consulate General presence in Jeruselum, including a main compound with a historic building, a sizeable annex, and several ancillary facilites in leased buildings. Moving the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jeruselem should be a matter of changing signs and moving the Ambassador’s Residence. Not only would building a new compound be enormously expensive, it would likely require evicting people from existing structures and demolishing them to make space, or locating the compound on the western or southern outskirts of Jeruselem. So much for being the leader of the “party of fiscal responsibility”.

Stranger
He's going to build a new embassy in Jerusalem and make the Palestinians pay for it, silly.

It was a stupid move. Yes, US politicians have paid lip service to the notion of recognizing Jerusalem as the capital, but until now they've had the good sense to realize that it would be unwise and unnecessarily inflammatory.

What continues to baffle me is how could anyone think that Jared Kushner would be taken seriously by both sides and that he could have the knowledge and skills to bring peace to this region.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:07 PM
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I assume you feel just as strongly about the ongoing charade whereby the United States pretends Taiwan isn't a country.
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That's a pretty good comparison, actually, and the answer is the same: Taiwan is an independent country, and recognizing it as one is the right thing to do. It just isn't necessarily the smart thing to do.
Taiwan doesn't recognize itself as an independent country so there's no reason why other countries should do so.

The official position of both the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China is that China is a single country, which comprises both the mainland and the island. The dispute is over which government - the one in Beijing or the one in Taipei - is the legitimate government of this country. Both governments officially claim to be the sole government over the entire country. So recognizing one government as valid means you have to also recognize the other one as invalid.

Which government do you choose? Realistically, one government is the de facto government for 98% of China and the other government is the de facto government for 2% of China. So it makes more sense to recognize the 98% government as the de jure government of China.
  #89  
Old 12-07-2017, 03:07 PM
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Taiwan dropped that claim years ago.
  #90  
Old 12-08-2017, 04:43 AM
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What the fuck? There is already a large Consulate General presence in Jeruselum, including a main compound with a historic building, a sizeable annex, and several ancillary facilites in leased buildings. Moving the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jeruselem should be a matter of changing signs and moving the Ambassador’s Residence. Not only would building a new compound be enormously expensive, it would likely require evicting people from existing structures and demolishing them to make space, or locating the compound on the western or southern outskirts of Jeruselem. So much for being the leader of the “party of fiscal responsibility”.

Stranger
But this way he can hire a Russian (or Russia-connected) firm to build it.

I wish I was joking.
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  #91  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:37 AM
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Taiwan dropped that claim years ago.
Not officially.
  #92  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:00 PM
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It's still almost as startling as it is saddening to hear "peace" described in a way that better fits "subjugation", and "negotiation" as meaning "acquiescence" and from the people who should best know otherwise, too.

Why should the Palestinians, or any humans, accept such subjugation? What other course of action is available to them now that they no longer have any available broker with even the pretense of honesty? Hint: Pretty much the opposite of peace. But they'll get all the blame from the usual responsibility-deniers anyway, of course.
  #93  
Old 12-08-2017, 04:52 PM
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Why should the Palestinians, or any humans, accept such subjugation?
Realistically....

Being subjugated by a country with a higher standard of living and a democratic form of government isn't really subjugation, unless you're being dimwitted. If the average person thinks that living in an autocratic dump is somehow better, then they're losing to the propaganda of their autocrats.

If the Palestinians had teamed up with the Israelis, they could have gotten into government, played the victim card, and possibly have come to take major or majority power in the nation, all while living a better lifestyle.

None of which is to say that people shouldn't be allowed to choose how they want to live, even if it's in an autocratic dump, nor that democracies have free reign to go conquer other "lesser" nations. It's just that, realistically, there's only ever the tiniest connection between what people want and what's good for them.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-08-2017 at 04:53 PM.
  #94  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:16 AM
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Actually, the quote is often misquoted:



Not going to pretend I knew this. I just happened to have learned of the correct version when I looked it up.
Yeah, my mistake.

As for the reason for the misquote it's because we all say "the Palestinians" now, but at the time the Israelis insisted they were a made up nationality and insisted on calling them just "the Arabs" or occasionally "the Palestinian Arabs".
  #95  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:36 AM
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The words used to describe the people all carry historical connotations.

The term Palestinian may be a version of Philistine. This implies that the modern Palestinians are the same people as the ancient Philistines. The ancient Philistines lived alongside the ancient Hebrews in the region that's now Israel.

The Arabs, obviously, originated in Arabia. They didn't live in the region that's now Israel until the era of the Muslim conquests in the seventh century CE.

I've seen some Palestinians identify themselves with the Canaanites. As the Bible relates, the Canaanites were the people the Hebrews encountered when they first migrated into the region after fleeing Egypt under Moses. The Canaanites eventually became known as the Phoenicians and these people claim that this is the origin of the terms Philistines and Palestinians.

So the terms have modern political connotations. If you identify the people as Arabs, you're implying that the Jews were there first and the Arabs came along much later as foreign invaders. If you identify the people as Canaanites, you're implying that they were there first and the Jews were the ones who came along later as foreign invaders. Both sides have their own identity which backs up a claim that they were the original settlers and the region is their homeland.
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Old 12-09-2017, 03:35 AM
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Yeah, my mistake.

As for the reason for the misquote it's because we all say "the Palestinians" now, but at the time the Israelis insisted they were a made up nationality and insisted on calling them just "the Arabs" or occasionally "the Palestinian Arabs".
I think the reason for the misquote was that Abba Evan was not speaking solely about the Palestinians, but about the Arabs as a whole. The prevailing view at the time - which is still held by many Israelis - was that the conflict with the Palestinians was just a small part of Israel's conflict with the Arab world, much as America's current conflict with Vietnam was just a small part of its fight against global communism.
  #97  
Old 12-09-2017, 04:46 AM
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The words used to describe the people all carry historical connotations.

The term Palestinian may be a version of Philistine. This implies that the modern Palestinians are the same people as the ancient Philistines. The ancient Philistines lived alongside the ancient Hebrews in the region that's now Israel.

The Arabs, obviously, originated in Arabia. They didn't live in the region that's now Israel until the era of the Muslim conquests in the seventh century CE.

I've seen some Palestinians identify themselves with the Canaanites. As the Bible relates, the Canaanites were the people the Hebrews encountered when they first migrated into the region after fleeing Egypt under Moses. The Canaanites eventually became known as the Phoenicians and these people claim that this is the origin of the terms Philistines and Palestinians.

So the terms have modern political connotations. If you identify the people as Arabs, you're implying that the Jews were there first and the Arabs came along much later as foreign invaders. If you identify the people as Canaanites, you're implying that they were there first and the Jews were the ones who came along later as foreign invaders. Both sides have their own identity which backs up a claim that they were the original settlers and the region is their homeland.
It would take DNA testing to confirm, but my expectation would be that the Palestinians are Canaanites who converted to Islam.

The Jews are probably a group of Canaanites who split off from the others, culturally, by proclaiming monotheism around ~500 BC. Ethnically and culturally, there'd likely be few differences before that point.

The Phillistines (if the Palestinians descend from them - which does seem plausible) came from the general area of the Gaza Strip. The Israelis held the Jordan Rift Valley. The Phillistine capital was probably somewhere in the region of Tell es-Safi. The Israeli capital was Jerusalem. (Putting the two capitals only some 20 miles apart from one another.)

Of course, the Jews were absent for about 2000 years, so it's not entirely unreasonable for the Palestinians to claim the rights. The Huns probably originated from an area near Kazakhstan some 2000 years ago. That doesn't mean that the Hungarians have an inherent right to take over Astana from whoever owns it now.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-09-2017 at 04:50 AM.
  #98  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:52 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Being subjugated by a country with a higher standard of living and a democratic form of government isn't really subjugation
Tell me more about this democratic government thing. Do the subjugated get to participate in it?

Quote:
unless you're being dimwitted.


Quote:
If the Palestinians had teamed up with the Israelis, they could have gotten into government, played the victim card, and possibly have come to take major or majority power in the nation, all while living a better lifestyle.
The Israelis know that too, which is why they've chosen subjugation instead. Arabs would already be a majority, btw.

Quote:
It's just that, realistically, there's only ever the tiniest connection between what people want and what's good for them.
Fortunately you know they're actually better off subjugated (how's that working out, btw?) and can reconcile yourself to that.

The word is apartheid.
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:06 AM
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The word is apartheid.
I was speaking about a hypothetical situation where the Palestinians had accepted Israeli rule, not the current situation which is more akin to having a long-term Occupational Government. (I believe that) you have misunderstood what I wrote.
  #100  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
The words used to describe the people all carry historical connotations.

The term Palestinian may be a version of Philistine. This implies that the modern Palestinians are the same people as the ancient Philistines. The ancient Philistines lived alongside the ancient Hebrews in the region that's now Israel.
It is a fully correct implication as the DNA research shows.

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The Arabs, obviously, originated in Arabia. They didn't live in the region that's now Israel until the era of the Muslim conquests in the seventh century CE.
Entirely 100 percent incorrect. The Arabic speakers - the Nabateans very famously but not only - were already present in the area in the time of the Roman conquest. Indeed there are traces of the references under the Assyrians to early Arabic speaking tribes of the bedouine type in the backland desertic areas of the region.

The Nabatean kingdom covered areas now in the southern range of the Israel and of course when all are brought under the Roman direct rule the natural mixing

The late Roman empire Byzantines themselves brought in the Arabic allies, the Ghassanids who were ruling the eastern Levant from their center of power in the area of the Golan heights from the 3rd century AD as the Byzantine local client rulers.

The idea that the Arabic speakers came only with the Islamic conquest is 100 percent wrong and 100 percent ahistorical.

the thing that the islamic period did was see the long term shift of the speakers of the closely related languages to the arabic and the disappearance of the greek speaking. The arabic populations had already come up to the Levant from the Assyrian times forward.

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It would take DNA testing to confirm, but my expectation would be that the Palestinians are Canaanites who converted to Islam.
It is not a thing unknown, it is esay to find via wikipedia the citations to the DNA studies that show amply that the majority of the Leventine genetic heritage - the 'Arab' Palestinian as the Jewish trace back to the same sources and they in majority derive from the same stock, who you can call Canaanites if you want.

there is no reason to guess or speculate, it is clear it is the case.

It is awkward maybe for the haters on both sides, those that wish to make the Palestinians some how alien to their own land and those who wish to make the modern Jews alien and descended mostly from the Europeans.

Quote:
Of course, the Jews were absent for about 2000 years, so it's not entirely unreasonable for the Palestinians to claim the rights. The Huns probably originated from an area near Kazakhstan some 2000 years ago. That doesn't mean that the Hungarians have an inherent right to take over Astana from whoever owns it now.
The modern Palestinians, the muslim and the christian are without doubt descended from the conversions, and themselves of the substantial Jewish heritage (maybe going to the Byzantine times even) as well although for ideology they would not normally say it.

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I was speaking about a hypothetical situation where the Palestinians had accepted Israeli rule, not the current situation which is more akin to having a long-term Occupational Government. (I believe that) you have misunderstood what I wrote.
The current situation is not akin, it is indeed.

You state it as the Palestinian choice, but it is as much the Israeli choice not to give any kind of citizenship to the occupied.
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