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  #151  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:31 PM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Originally Posted by Luciano700 View Post
What about the lack of gendered-marketing?
Please define "gendered-marketing." What I would interpret the phrase to mean is things are marketed differently to men than they are to women. Which is our reality. Google "pink tax" and you can read a lot about that. Do you mean something else, though?

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Originally Posted by Luciano700 View Post
Why aren't women in selective services?
Why do you think it would be fair for women to have to register for selective service too? The draft is slavery, so to be fair no one should need to register, not everyone.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Do you know why male life expectancies are lower? I don't. Maybe discrimination is involved, or maybe it's just biology. If discrimination is involved, then that is bad and should end.
Conventional wisdom is that it's a combination of biology and males engaging in more risk-taking behaviors. On average women get heart disease later than men do, and more men smoke, eat poorly, and manage stress poorly.
  #152  
Old 02-07-2018, 12:35 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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Originally Posted by elfkin477 View Post
Please define "gendered-marketing." What I would interpret the phrase to mean is things are marketed differently to men than they are to women. Which is our reality. Google "pink tax" and you can read a lot about that. Do you mean something else, though?


Why do you think it would be fair for women to have to register for selective service too? The draft is slavery, so to be fair no one should need to register, not everyone.


Conventional wisdom is that it's a combination of biology and males engaging in more risk-taking behaviors. On average women get heart disease later than men do, and more men smoke, eat poorly, and manage stress poorly.
Well on the other hand women's life expectancies have also declined lately so...
  #153  
Old 02-07-2018, 01:46 AM
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Is 2018 and men still barely get access to abuse centers
...where in the world do you live?

Do you think that the statement "men still barely get access to abuse centers" is a statement that is applicable everywhere in the world?

Can you provide some cites that this is an issue? How about starting where you live? What problems do men have accessing abuse centres? Have you contacted your local abuse centre and asked them what men who have been abused should do or where they should go?

Quote:
Male life expectancies are still very steady, and especially for men of color
What metrics are you using to determine male life expectancies are "very steady?" Cite?

What would you expect male life expectancy to be in a "male dominated world?" And can you give some reasons why you would expect this result?

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Why aren't women in selective services?
Women aren't "in" selective services where I live. And neither are men.

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A great example of a double standard would be not dating a guy because he's bald, yet a woman being rejected for being morbidly obese sparks outrage
Do you really think that this is some sort of objective metric for determining if its a "male dominated world" or not?

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Men have and will, at times, face discrimination in courts when they assert their rights to pursue joint or sole physical custody.
Women have and will, at times, face discrimination in courts when they assert their rights to pursue joint or sole physical custody.

Both of these statements, in certain circumstances, are true. Sometimes the courts are just an arse.

But its incumbent on you, as the person who has made the positive assertion, to provide some sort of evidence to show that men face disproportionate levels of "discrimination." And you need to be clear on what this "discrimination" actually is. There are certainly many men's rights advocacy groups that make this claim. But when we take a closer look, often the claims are based on either one-sided anecdotes or a poor reading of the statistics.

So make a case that your assertion is true.

Then once you've made your case (or not) then make the case for why this particular fact is evidence that the world is not "male dominated."

Quote:
The judges and friend of the court workers that perpetuate the discrimination often don't realize that they are discriminating. That is because many people are very susceptible to unconscious/ implicit bias
Or they've looked at all the facts of the case and made determinations based on what is best for the child.

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The gender marketing one is just something I care about only myself I guess
What gender marketing thing?

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The last one should be obvious
Nope.
  #154  
Old 02-07-2018, 06:52 AM
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A great example of a double standard would be not dating a guy because he's bald, yet a woman being rejected for being morbidly obese sparks outrage
It does ?
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  #155  
Old 02-08-2018, 03:17 AM
AI Proofreader AI Proofreader is offline
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
Can you provide some cites that this is an issue? How about starting where you live? What problems do men have accessing abuse centres? Have you contacted your local abuse centre and asked them what men who have been abused should do or where they should go?
Most of Luciano's points aren't particularly compelling. However, this one happens to be true for the U.S. - domestic abuse centers here only admit women and children. A battered man would have to go to a homeless shelter - if he can find one that isn't full. We have a pretty significant housing crisis here - (600,000 chronically homeless, 2-2.5 million experiencing some degree of homelessness each year). As with most of our problems, it goes largely ignored.
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  #156  
Old 02-08-2018, 06:09 AM
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Most of Luciano's points aren't particularly compelling. However, this one happens to be true for the U.S. - domestic abuse centers here only admit women and children. A battered man would have to go to a homeless shelter - if he can find one that isn't full. We have a pretty significant housing crisis here - (600,000 chronically homeless, 2-2.5 million experiencing some degree of homelessness each year). As with most of our problems, it goes largely ignored.
...I did ask for cites.

If you want to claim that "it is true" then feel free to provide cites on Luciano700's behalf.

How about you start with the claim that in the US "domestic abuse centers here only admit women and children?" Is that everywhere in the US? I won't find a single domestic abuse center anywhere that admits men and women? I won't find any domestic abuse centers that only admit men? Is this a law? Or does this only apply to some states and not others? Is the only option for battered men is to go to a homeless shelter? They don't get put into hotels?
  #157  
Old 02-08-2018, 07:52 AM
proudfootz proudfootz is offline
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...I did ask for cites.

If you want to claim that "it is true" then feel free to provide cites on Luciano700's behalf.

How about you start with the claim that in the US "domestic abuse centers here only admit women and children?" Is that everywhere in the US? I won't find a single domestic abuse center anywhere that admits men and women? I won't find any domestic abuse centers that only admit men? Is this a law? Or does this only apply to some states and not others? Is the only option for battered men is to go to a homeless shelter? They don't get put into hotels?
The thing about shelters is that women got together and created them because there was a critical need to save lives.

http://saintmarthas.org/resources/hi...mens-movement/

If all the men complaining about how they don't have shelters to protect their lives from the homicidal women in their lives got together and raised the funds, built shelters, and volunteered to staff them the problem would be solved.
  #158  
Old 02-08-2018, 08:17 AM
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Yes, it is a problem, and IMO is another example of toxic masculinity being harmful to men; we are culturally programmed not to see men as victims of intimate partner abuse, or not worthy of protection.


Decent primer on the problem from NPR here. Interesting point in that one, from a researcher at Bridgewater State (MA):
Quote:
...just 8 percent of male victims who called domestic violence hotlines found them very helpful. Sixteen percent said the people at the hotline dismissed or made fun of them.
Here's a discussion of the first men-only DV shelter in Texas (which opened in 2017). And here's one about the first such shelter in the country...which, would you believe, also opened in 2017.



So yeah, the blind squirrel found a nut. The patriarchy fucks men over, too. Not nearly to the same degree, but that's small consolation to the abused man who gets mocked by a goddamn DV hotline.
.

Last edited by andros; 02-08-2018 at 08:18 AM.
  #159  
Old 02-08-2018, 08:24 AM
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If all the men complaining about how they don't have shelters to protect their lives from the homicidal women in their lives got together and raised the funds, built shelters, and volunteered to staff them the problem would be solved.
A) abusive != homicidal

B) This point is really reductive. Do you really think it's as simple as that?
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  #160  
Old 02-08-2018, 09:22 AM
proudfootz proudfootz is offline
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Originally Posted by andros View Post
A) abusive != homicidal

B) This point is really reductive. Do you really think it's as simple as that?
.
I'm addressing a reductive point that 'there are no men-only domestic abuse shelters in my community'.

Do you imagine anyone who puts forward that sort of 'argument' is ready for anything the least bit nuanced?

As for people who are violent toward their domestic partners, they might not be consciously trying to actually kill them outright, but all the torture and beatings and shoving down the stairs sometimes results in the 'accidental' deaths of their victims.

It's really tough sometimes to figure out where savagely beating someone was 'only' intended to cripple and maim.

In my opinion it does betray a depraved indifference to human life.
  #161  
Old 02-12-2018, 01:38 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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I'm addressing a reductive point that 'there are no men-only domestic abuse shelters in my community'.

Do you imagine anyone who puts forward that sort of 'argument' is ready for anything the least bit nuanced?

As for people who are violent toward their domestic partners, they might not be consciously trying to actually kill them outright, but all the torture and beatings and shoving down the stairs sometimes results in the 'accidental' deaths of their victims.

It's really tough sometimes to figure out where savagely beating someone was 'only' intended to cripple and maim.

In my opinion it does betray a depraved indifference to human life.
Hence why I made that topic about relationship dynamics.
  #162  
Old 02-19-2018, 09:49 PM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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If it was a men's world truly, there would be more men than women
Well, if we're going by numbers, I would have said we live in an ant-dominated world, but it turns out it's actually a copepod-dominated world!
(And I, for one welcome our new . . . No? OK.)

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Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciano700 View Post
If it was truly a men's world, men would be used more in advertising
This one is almost exactly backwards.

Unless the ad is for a weapon, or a power tool, or something else that's considered masculine, why would I want to see a man in the picture? I'd much rather see a good-looking woman.
Also, I've noticed that all the porn I watch is full of women! What's with that? (Although I hesitate to use the term "female-dominated" in this context, for fear of creating assumptions about my tastes.)


To answer the OP's question: Yeah, kinda'. But it depends on what you mean by "male-dominated". What do you think other people mean by "male-dominated"?

If the question is whether men overwhelmingly control the political, industrial, commercial, financial, legal, military, and entertainment institutions and systems of the world, without knowledge of the actual statistics I would still say confidently "yes, obviously".

Despite the alusions you and others may make to a few circumstances specific or vague, in which women are perceived to have some advantage over men, it seems clear to me that most of the significant influences governing our lives, beyond the choices of the individual, are stil primarily dictated by the decisions of men.

But I do think we're seeing a positive, if gradual change towards balance.


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Originally Posted by Starving Artist View Post
. . . women hold a great deal of power over men simply by virtue (heh) of being women. Most men instinctively seek to please women, to protect and care for them, etc. Merely a smile can make one's day. Men have lost families, fortunes, careers, and on some occasions even gone to war over or because of women.
And those are all decisions that those men are in charge of.
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Originally Posted by Starving Artist View Post
So women enjoy a great many benefits as they go through life merely because men are willing to do so many things for them, and/or to give up so many things for them.
The key point being, so long as those thirsty, thirsty men are willing to do those things. The notion that women's attractiveness to men somehow balances the numerous ways in which men exercise power over women (and society in general) is bonkers.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Look at the Old West. Yes we talk about how this and that sheriff cleaned up a town but in reality, it was the women. Yes the women. Who chased out the bars and brothels and brought in schools, churches, libraries, clean streets, and social institutions like fine arts and book clubs. It was the women.
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Originally Posted by Starving Artist View Post
Exactly! Women in reality were never the helpless little taken advantage of wallflowers some would have us believe. And they weren't all the book and flower club type either. Many men see the underlying truth of a woman's strength in a joke I was sent the other day:
You are both conflating strength and determination with power and opportunity.
(Still a funny joke, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion, and is completely devoid of any underlying truth.)
  #163  
Old 02-19-2018, 09:55 PM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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As soon you said "white male" instead of men in general I almost wanted to stop your reading your post.
Of course, by the time you got that far you were almost at the end, so I guess you figured you might as well soldier on.

And I thought you were the one who brought race into the . . . discussion?
I could be wrong. It's been a pretty bumpy ride.
  #164  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:33 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Men have historically dominated women simply because they had the strength and ability to do so. Now things have become reversed, the female is now the dominant sex. In our current times, men continually bend over backwards to appease women.

Last edited by Marcus Flavius; 02-19-2018 at 10:36 PM.
  #165  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:45 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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Despite the alusions you and others may make to a few circumstances specific or vague, in which women are perceived to have some advantage over men, it seems clear to me that most of the significant influences governing our lives, beyond the choices of the individual, are stil primarily dictated by the decisions of men.
In the public sphere, like politicians and media figures, that's true, although it has lessened over the years. I'm not sure that those public figures are the most significant influences on us. If women are still primarily responsible for child rearing, and more likely to get custody in a divorce, that gives them a huge influence on how we grow up and what we think.
  #166  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:47 PM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Now things have become reversed, the female is now the dominant sex. In our current times, men continually bend over backwards to appease women.
So speaks the voice of ancient Rome (who, while being a notorious lady-killer, apparently is not comfortable with the woman-on-top position).
  #167  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:48 PM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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In the public sphere, like politicians and media figures, that's true, although it has lessened over the years. I'm not sure that those public figures are the most significant influences on us. If women are still primarily responsible for child rearing, and more likely to get custody in a divorce, that gives them a huge influence on how we grow up and what we think.
That is an excellent counterpoint to what I wrote regarding influences governing our lives. I will acknowledged that in terms of child-rearing and effect on our pre-adult lives, women have a huge influence. Although I don't feel this is equivalent to the male-dominated inlfuences on our adult lives.

I do think you're misinterpreting my intent in refering to the ways in which men still dominate society. I'm not talking about public figures as such (eg, the politicians and media personalities who dominate the airwaves), I'm talking about the public and private institutions by which society functions: banks, courts, law-enforcement, policy-making, manufacturing.
Do I know for certain that all these institutions are male-dominated? Nope.
Do I strongly suspect they are? Hell yes.

But sure, I'd say we're getting better.
My own workplace is fairly well balanced.
Although the top brass are almost all men.
  #168  
Old 02-20-2018, 12:43 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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That is an excellent counterpoint to what I wrote regarding influences governing our lives. I will acknowledged that in terms of child-rearing and effect on our pre-adult lives, women have a huge influence. Although I don't feel this is equivalent to the male-dominated inlfuences on our adult lives.

I do think you're misinterpreting my intent in refering to the ways in which men still dominate society. I'm not talking about public figures as such (eg, the politicians and media personalities who dominate the airwaves), I'm talking about the public and private institutions by which society functions: banks, courts, law-enforcement, policy-making, manufacturing.
Do I know for certain that all these institutions are male-dominated? Nope.
Do I strongly suspect they are? Hell yes.

But sure, I'd say we're getting better.
My own workplace is fairly well balanced.
Although the top brass are almost all men.
Yeah I am autistic, do I care neurotypicals rule still almost everything and that we are still very under-spoke?


#diversity
  #169  
Old 02-20-2018, 01:12 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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Since probably everyone ITT wants to discuss male priviledge then I highly recommend checking this thread out
https://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-...ghts-activist/
  #170  
Old 02-20-2018, 01:50 AM
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I do think you're misinterpreting my intent in refering to the ways in which men still dominate society. I'm not talking about public figures as such (eg, the politicians and media personalities who dominate the airwaves), I'm talking about the public and private institutions by which society functions: banks, courts, law-enforcement, policy-making, manufacturing.
Do I know for certain that all these institutions are male-dominated? Nope.
Do I strongly suspect they are? Hell yes.
If something like banking is male-dominated, I'm not sure it makes a difference to anyone except the bankers. I give my bank money, they hold on to it for a while, then later they give it back to me. I'm not sure how a woman would do that any differently than a man. The head of my bank may be a woman; I have no idea. Now, to be clear, women should have access to those jobs. If the head of a bank is a man and he favors other men in terms of hiring, promotion, lending, or business opportunities, that's unacceptable. But for the vast majority of people, I don't think bankers are much of an influence on our lives.

It's rather the same with courts, law enforcement, manufacturing, and quite a few others. The standards by which they perform their jobs don't really give them a lot of leeway in how they choose to operate. The courts just interpret the law, they don't (or aren't supposed to) write it. The head of a car company has to make vehicles that he thinks the public will buy, or someone else will. A great teacher can make big difference in a child's life, but they don't write the textbooks or set the curriculum.

I know that role models are important, and I hope everyone can see people like them in different professional settings and be inspired by them. That's not what I was getting at, either.

That's why I phrased my statement the way I did. I was trying to think of those people who really have the freedom to set an agenda, to choose what subjects we are exposed to, and to influence what we will think about them. That's a much smaller list.
  #171  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:01 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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Since probably everyone ITT wants to discuss male priviledge then I highly recommend checking this thread out
https://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-...ghts-activist/
Notice also how the catcalling experiment video seemed to only use homeless and black mem, wonder why?
https://www.avoiceformen.com/feminis...-of-hollaback/
  #172  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:11 AM
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Since probably everyone ITT wants to discuss male priviledge then I highly recommend checking this thread out
https://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-...ghts-activist/
...one of the hallmarks of a "great debate" is that you do the debating yourself. "A voice for men", the website you linked to, was founded by Paul Elam, and a little bit of googling would reveal Pauls disgusting legacy. So I'm not going to click on your link and I would encourage other people to avoid it as well. If you want to debate: then debate, don't "debate by proxy." If you hold the same editorial views as the people that run a voice for men then you should be perfectly capable of defending those views yourself.

I challenged a whole lot of your assertions earlier in this thread. Do you want to try to "bring the debate back to great debates" and respond to my post?
  #173  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:15 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...one of the hallmarks of a "great debate" is that you do the debating yourself. "A voice for men", the website you linked to, was founded by Paul Elam, and a little bit of googling would reveal Pauls disgusting legacy. So I'm not going to click on your link and I would encourage other people to avoid it as well. If you want to debate: then debate, don't "debate by proxy." If you hold the same editorial views as the people that run a voice for men then you should be perfectly capable of defending those views yourself.

I challenged a whole lot of your assertions earlier in this thread. Do you want to try to "bring the debate back to great debates" and respond to my post?
Well the thread really isn't about male priviledge. Yes the two really are almost the same, but not really because priviledge and dominance are not the same thing. But I don't want to have to explain semantics right now.

Sure what was the last post? I may have forgotten some.
  #174  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:17 AM
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Well the thread really isn't about male priviledge. Yes the two really are almost the same, but not really because priviledge and dominance are not the same thing. But I don't want to have to explain semantics right now.
...what on earth are you talking about?

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Sure what was the last post? I may have forgotten some.
Scroll up.
  #175  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:19 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...what on earth are you talking about?



Scroll up.
I am saying dominating does not = having priviledge


Dominance means having more representation off, priviledge means having certain benefits.


I am bit sleepy, sorry about that.
  #176  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:20 AM
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I am saying dominating does not = having priviledge


Dominance means having more representation off, priviledge means having certain benefits.


I am bit sleepy, sorry about that.
...what does any of that have to do with anything I said?
  #177  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:23 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...what does any of that have to do with anything I said?
I was inferring about my article, that I think posting it was a stupid move.


But let's cut to the chase.

Last edited by Luciano700; 02-20-2018 at 02:23 AM.
  #178  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:27 AM
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I was inferring about my article, that I think posting it was a stupid move.
...the article that I said I hadn't clicked, and that I encouraged everybody else not to click? You know I didn't read it, so why are you talking to me like I had read it?

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But let's cut to the chase.
Yes, lets.
  #179  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:34 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...the article that I said I hadn't clicked, and that I encouraged everybody else not to click? You know I didn't read it, so why are you talking to me like I had read it?



Yes, lets.
Because you still made some commenting on it



I honestly think the only truly male-dominated country out there is perhaps Saudi Arabia.

Last edited by Luciano700; 02-20-2018 at 02:34 AM.
  #180  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:57 AM
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Because you still made some commenting on it
...I made zero comment on it. I told you I hadn't clicked it. I suggested that you don't debate by proxy. I said nothing about "privilege" or "dominance" or whatever else it was you said to me. I suggest you go read what I wrote again.

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I honestly think the only truly male-dominated country out there is perhaps Saudi Arabia.
I don't actually think you know what you mean when you say "male-dominated country." How about we start by defining your terms. When you say "male dominated" what exactly is it that you mean?
  #181  
Old 02-20-2018, 04:12 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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If something like banking is male-dominated, I'm not sure it makes a difference to anyone except the bankers. I give my bank money, they hold on to it for a while, then later they give it back to me. I'm not sure how a woman would do that any differently than a man. The head of my bank may be a woman; I have no idea. Now, to be clear, women should have access to those jobs. If the head of a bank is a man and he favors other men in terms of hiring, promotion, lending, or business opportunities, that's unacceptable. But for the vast majority of people, I don't think bankers are much of an influence on our lives.

It's rather the same with courts, law enforcement, manufacturing, and quite a few others. The standards by which they perform their jobs don't really give them a lot of leeway in how they choose to operate. The courts just interpret the law, they don't (or aren't supposed to) write it. The head of a car company has to make vehicles that he thinks the public will buy, or someone else will. A great teacher can make big difference in a child's life, but they don't write the textbooks or set the curriculum.

I know that role models are important, and I hope everyone can see people like them in different professional settings and be inspired by them. That's not what I was getting at, either.

That's why I phrased my statement the way I did. I was trying to think of those people who really have the freedom to set an agenda, to choose what subjects we are exposed to, and to influence what we will think about them. That's a much smaller list.
I think we're approaching the topic from two different angles.
You're talking about role models and individual-to-individual influence. I'm talking about where the power lies within society's institutions and systems.

And although you might not see or feel the inlfuence of the latter in your day-to-day life, I think the power of the banking, legal, political, industrial institutions, etc. is enormous in shaping the societies we live in; even if we never give them any thought.
It is my assumption that these institutions are still predominantly controlled by men. Ergo, yes, we still live in a male-dominated world.
  #182  
Old 02-20-2018, 08:16 AM
ZPG Zealot ZPG Zealot is offline
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Men have historically dominated women simply because they had the strength and ability to do so. Now things have become reversed, the female is now the dominant sex. In our current times, men continually bend over backwards to appease women.
Not hardly. Moderate power or beta men may bend over backwards to appease attractive women, but unattractive women will not receive such attention. Unfortunately in many cases, attractiveness has become the prerequisite for a woman to be treated decently.
  #183  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:37 PM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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A stupid +1, but if it was also a male-dominated world, then guys would also have their own version of a sweet 16th


Just sayin��
  #184  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:38 PM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...I made zero comment on it. I told you I hadn't clicked it. I suggested that you don't debate by proxy. I said nothing about "privilege" or "dominance" or whatever else it was you said to me. I suggest you go read what I wrote again.



I don't actually think you know what you mean when you say "male-dominated country." How about we start by defining your terms. When you say "male dominated" what exactly is it that you mean?
I mean women don't even have personal autonomy over there so yeah I am pretty sure is as male-dominated as they come.
  #185  
Old 02-20-2018, 08:47 PM
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I mean women don't even have personal autonomy over there so yeah I am pretty sure is as male-dominated as they come.
...can you at least make an effort to answer the question as asked?

You didn't answer my question.

You have demonstrated that you are perfectly capable of understanding complex ideas and can give thoughtful, extensive, completely legibile answers. But for some reason you are unable to do that in this thread.

So if you are capable of arguing that your contention "is that they are the ONLY obstacles to changing gun laws, and that there is nothing sacred or immutable about them", then defining what you mean by "a male dominated world" should not be a question that should be difficult for you to answer.

So how are you defining a "male dominated world"?
  #186  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:02 PM
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The US fortunately narrowly avoided having a woman president and should be grateful - and how! Women politicians meanwhile are destroying Europe, Germany's chancellor Merkel has been a disaster allowing over a million Muslim immigrant men in to the country, few of whom are real refugees but are in reality economic migrants, a lot having the ambition to destroy the identity of Europe which has already happened in Sweden courtesy of a predominantly female government and judiciary,
and still they cry out for more power and preferential treatment. Time to wake up guys.
  #187  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:26 PM
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The US fortunately narrowly avoided having a woman president and should be grateful - and how! Women politicians meanwhile are destroying Europe, Germany's chancellor Merkel has been a disaster allowing over a million Muslim immigrant men in to the country, few of whom are real refugees but are in reality economic migrants, a lot having the ambition to destroy the identity of Europe which has already happened in Sweden courtesy of a predominantly female government and judiciary,
and still they cry out for more power and preferential treatment. Time to wake up guys.
Oh, for the love of all things holy.

Let me just add once again
  #188  
Old 02-25-2018, 06:26 AM
GoodOmens GoodOmens is online now
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A stupid +1, but if it was also a male-dominated world, then guys would also have their own version of a sweet 16th


Just sayin��
Luciano, with all due respect, this argument barely qualifies as scraping the bottom of the barrel. You do realize that boys can have a special 16th birthday party, right? Or any other birthday, for that matter? And you do realize that not all girls get a special 16th birthday party, right? In fact, to the best of my knowledge not a single woman in my life had a sweet 16th party. It's not a thing.
  #189  
Old 02-25-2018, 06:28 AM
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^^^ The reply came as a resounding ........... non sequitur!
  #190  
Old 02-25-2018, 07:04 AM
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Patriarchy deniers are of the same ilk as holocaust deniers.

And I had a sweet 16 party, thank you very much.
  #191  
Old 02-25-2018, 07:21 AM
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^^^ The reply came as a resounding ........... non sequitur!
Indeed it did. What compelled you to make it?
  #192  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:08 AM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...can you at least make an effort to answer the question as asked?

You didn't answer my question.

You have demonstrated that you are perfectly capable of understanding complex ideas and can give thoughtful, extensive, completely legibile answers. But for some reason you are unable to do that in this thread.

So if you are capable of arguing that your contention "is that they are the ONLY obstacles to changing gun laws, and that there is nothing sacred or immutable about them", then defining what you mean by "a male dominated world" should not be a question that should be difficult for you to answer.

So how are you defining a "male dominated world"?

Well I mean we can go all hours and hours of semantics.



But yeah I truly think the Middle East is as much of a patriarchy as they come. Women can't even have medical procedures on their own.
  #193  
Old 02-25-2018, 12:37 PM
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Well I mean we can go all hours and hours of semantics.



But yeah I truly think the Middle East is as much of a patriarchy as they come. Women can't even have medical procedures on their own.
You still aren't answering the question, other than to say that you think that the Middle East is a patriarchy. You've been asked to define your terms, which doesn't need to take hours and hours. It does require more than, "but yeah".

What specifically defines a male-dominated society or world?
  #194  
Old 02-25-2018, 02:06 PM
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Well I mean we can go all hours and hours of semantics.
...I'm not asking you to go for "hours and hours." I'm expecting you to take five minutes to craft something that we can debate.

Quote:
But yeah I truly think the Middle East is as much of a patriarchy as they come. Women can't even have medical procedures on their own.
Still not answering my question.
  #195  
Old 02-25-2018, 04:22 PM
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The US fortunately narrowly avoided having a woman president and should be grateful - and how! Women politicians meanwhile are destroying Europe, Germany's chancellor Merkel has been a disaster allowing over a million Muslim immigrant men in to the country, few of whom are real refugees but are in reality economic migrants, a lot having the ambition to destroy the identity of Europe which has already happened in Sweden courtesy of a predominantly female government and judiciary,
and still they cry out for more power and preferential treatment. Time to wake up guys.
MAGA - Make Authoritarian Germany Again....

What could go wrong?
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  #196  
Old 02-25-2018, 04:28 PM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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...I'm not asking you to go for "hours and hours." I'm expecting you to take five minutes to craft something that we can debate.



Still not answering my question.
Alright then to me a male dominated world would include



More attention towards men, more men in advertising, fathers would be the more dominant parents, men's health would be more promoted, etc etc


Are those good examples?
  #197  
Old 02-25-2018, 06:28 PM
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More attention towards men,
...so in western society don't we pay more attention to men?

Don't they get paid more money?

Don't they star in and direct more movies?

Aren't men overwhelmingly in positions of political power?

By this metric alone society in the US would appear to be "male dominated" using your terms of reference.

Quote:
more men in advertising,
Only 11% Creative Directors are female. Women make 85% of purchasing decisions, so it is no surprise that marketing targets the female demographic. But there is no shortage of men making decisions on what happens in advertising. Men decide its best to have less men on screen or in print. Men decide what we see in advertising, not women. Men have the power.

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fathers would be the more dominant parents,
You have to be much more specific on what you mean here. Fathers are "less dominant?" How so? What metric are you using to make this determination?

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men's health would be more promoted, etc etc
"More" is a subjective measure. More promoted than what? Than women's health? Bring some numbers into the discussion.

Quote:
Are those good examples?
Not really. These are "talking points" not "points to debate": we can't meaningfully discuss them unless you make an attempt to substantiate your claims.
  #198  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:38 PM
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Only 11% Creative Directors are female. Women make 85% of purchasing decisions, so it is no surprise that marketing targets the female demographic. But there is no shortage of men making decisions on what happens in advertising. Men decide its best to have less men on screen or in print. Men decide what we see in advertising, not women. Men have the power.
I don't think this is as clear cut as "men have the power". You say yourself that women make 85% of purchasing decisions. Advertisers have to cater to that. How many times have consumer boycotts forced changes in corporate policies. We're currently seeing companies drop their associations with the National Rifle Association, presumably because they fear it will cost them customers. Consumerism is a form of power.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciano700 View Post
men's health would be more promoted, etc etc
"More" is a subjective measure. More promoted than what? Than women's health? Bring some numbers into the discussion.
Every year, the NFL, a $13-billion-a-year business, spends a month turning things pink for breast cancer awareness. Men's cancer awareness is a bunch of guys growing mustaches.

It's not that I agree with the OP that's it's a female-dominated world, but I find there to be interesting examples on both sides that the other usually ignores.
  #199  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:58 PM
Luciano700 Luciano700 is offline
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Politically and governmentally does not = all the attention


When I start seeing more male teenage drama films and male models, then remind me again about that


Well the reasons dads are not also the dominant parents is because work and child-bearing reasons from women play a big role too. But with stay at home dads soon becoming the norm that's all about to change anyways


Is about as much of a female-dominated world as it is to males. Power is not source of dominance, while some of it may play a role, is not a big indicator of dominance.


That's like saying just because black dudes are seen as the best athletes right away they automatically dominate all sports lmao.


Hell I could even use the case of homosexuality being more acceptable for women than men, particularly for white women.


That's not fair, men probably have more fear of sharing their gayness than women.

Last edited by Luciano700; 02-25-2018 at 10:59 PM.
  #200  
Old 02-26-2018, 02:29 AM
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I don't think this is as clear cut as "men have the power".
...well this is Great Debates. And I'm debating the proposition that "more men in advertising" means...well I'm not entirely sure actually. So I've made my own debate. And to be quite frank, I actually do think it is that clear cut.

Quote:
You say yourself that women make 85% of purchasing decisions. Advertisers have to cater to that.
Advertisers can choose who they cater for. Its an active decision, not a compulsory one. They choose to cater to the 85% of people who make purchasing decisions.

Quote:
How many times have consumer boycotts forced changes in corporate policies.
Not very often actually.

Quote:
We're currently seeing companies drop their associations with the National Rifle Association, presumably because they fear it will cost them customers.
The consumer boycotts against the NRA have not been led by women, but by teenagers. So is it a teenage-dominated world?

I strongly suspect that a lot of the companies that have dropped their associations with the NRA have been wanting to do this for a very very long time. But they didn't do that prior to now because the NRA were very good at painting anybody who "went against them" as the bad guy. This current situation gave them the perfect opportunity to drop their association without the backlash they may once have gotten. So it had less to do with "a consumer backlash" and more to do with "now is the right time to sever the relationship." But YMMV.

Quote:
Consumerism is a form of power.
Occasionally a boycott or direct consumer action gets direct results. But it doesn't happen often enough (in a scalable, duplicatable fashion) to really compare it to the power of a creative executive to hire a female actress.

Quote:
Every year, the NFL, a $13-billion-a-year business, spends a month turning things pink for breast cancer awareness. Men's cancer awareness is a bunch of guys growing mustaches.
Hyperbole doesn't help your point. Millions of dollars are spent on men's cancer awareness. In my tiny country the government spent 4.3 million dollars (in 2013 over four years) on prostate cancer awareness. That's more than a "bunch of guys growing mustaches." It isn't a competition.

Quote:
It's not that I agree with the OP that's it's a female-dominated world, but I find there to be interesting examples on both sides that the other usually ignores.
Nothing is being "ignored." You want more money spent on prostate cancer awareness? Then donate to a relevant charity. Or start your own charity. Lobby the government to increase funding. But if you think that prostate cancer awareness needs more money then make that case without saying that another "worthy cause" should have less money.
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