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Old 02-10-2018, 11:06 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Would "free college" work in the US?

So what do you all think?

What if anyone in the US who wants to go to college, and has the requirements like good grades, could get free tuition to college?

Also how does this all work in other countries?


Personally why I like the idea, I think their could be alot of issues for example:
1. What would the requirements be for attending various colleges?
2. What measures would there be for allocating money to different colleges or different degree programs?

So what do you all think?
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:11 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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It has certainly been tried in a number of places. I remember the City University of New York had it for several years--but had to drop it because of budget problems. And when they dropped it there was a substantial drop in the number of students.
http://www1.cuny.edu/mu/forum/2011/1...-free-sort-of/
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:55 PM
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I wouldn't think there would need to be any changes in admissions criteria. I'd happily teach at a free university, and probably pick up another degree myself.
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:51 AM
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Surely Americans can't be intrinsically too incompetent to achieve what other countries have already done. It would require the political will.
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:54 AM
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Surely Americans can't be intrinsically too incompetent to achieve what other countries have already done. It would require the political will.
Don't bet against either the incompetence (look who was elected President) or the selfishness (look who was elected President) of the American people.
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:01 AM
proudfootz proudfootz is offline
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Don't bet against either the incompetence (look who was elected President) or the selfishness (look who was elected President) of the American people.
I agree that there are some folks who are stupidly (in my opinion) resisting America's joining the rest of the civilized world by investing in its people.
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:07 AM
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Maybe y’all should start with baby steps, Y’know, try and even out education funding across the board for public school first. So ALL kids have access to a decent basic, education. Instead of kids in rich neighbourhoods getting great schools and kids in poor neighbourhoods get really crappy schools. One gets an NFL quality football program with paid coaches while across town schools in poor neighbourhoods can’t get decent textbooks and have no arts or sports funding.

Free university isn’t any help to the disenfranchised who are denied access to the basic education required to secure admission to any university.

If you don’t address that, free uni is just another white privilege effectively.
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:29 AM
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Definitely a good call to raise the bar on all schools from the get go.
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:19 AM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is offline
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While I won't suggest the OP is baiting the hook by using the phrase "free college", I've had discussions with some less than forthright conservatives who want only to pounce on the idea of free anything. And they have a point - nothing is really free, it's a question of how it's paid for.

So having said that, I would gladly agree to pay for fully subsidized college for all through taxes.
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
While I won't suggest the OP is baiting the hook by using the phrase "free college", I've had discussions with some less than forthright conservatives who want only to pounce on the idea of free anything. And they have a point - nothing is really free, it's a question of how it's paid for.
It would be a hard sell to tell people "Well, we're glad you paid for your own college - and please continue to pay off those loans if you're not done with that yet since this announcement will not benefit you in any monetary way - but with this exciting new program we're going to allow you to pay for other people's educations too! Isn't that wonderful?"
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:04 AM
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California's Community Colleges were free of tuition charges for many many decades ... and both state universities and UC campuses were dirt cheap to attend ... my understanding is that has changed now since it was quite expensive to the tax payers ... free tuition = higher taxes ... it's a choice ...
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:08 AM
Fretful Porpentine Fretful Porpentine is offline
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We have "free college" in many parts of Mississippi -- not exactly a hotbed of progressive political ideas -- in that many community colleges offer free tuition for local students. (Often with some asterisks attached; e.g., at our local community college the students have to apply for all the scholarships and federal and state grants they are eligible for FIRST, after which the college will step up to cover the balance, and they have to maintain a certain GPA while enrolled.)

I think it is a good idea with some caveats. The main problem that I see is that the community colleges aren't always providing students with the best education (both because they're overcrowded and underfunded, and because their funding formula places too much emphasis on retaining / graduating students and not enough on producing graduates who do well at a four-year school, so the incentives are to pass students even when they shouldn't). As that is the case, I think bright students from low-income families sometimes aren't encouraged to look beyond the community colleges, even though they would benefit from being in a more academically rigorous environment, while some of the less-academically-inclined ones are given a false impression of their chances of success at a four-year institution. However, it definitely puts a college degree within reach of students who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:13 AM
Nayna Nayna is offline
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New York state schools just introduced "free" tuition for state residents, when you commit to living and working in New York for as long as you took the tuition.

https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-...or-scholarship
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:49 AM
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Tennessee offers 2 years free, at a Community College, or Technical School.
There are a few, easy to meet requirements.

It will change the face of this State, over ten years.
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:37 AM
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I remember hearing discussions that tuition fees are not the main barrier to getting lower income students to attend post-secondary education. E.g., there already exist a variety of scholarships or student loan programs that lower income students qualify for, but that doesn't help if received poor-quality high school education.

If that's the case, then wouldn't this just be a subsidy for middle income families?
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:58 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Maybe yíall should start with baby steps, Yíknow, try and even out education funding across the board for public school first. So ALL kids have access to a decent basic, education. Instead of kids in rich neighbourhoods getting great schools and kids in poor neighbourhoods get really crappy schools. One gets an NFL quality football program with paid coaches while across town schools in poor neighbourhoods canít get decent textbooks and have no arts or sports funding.

Free university isnít any help to the disenfranchised who are denied access to the basic education required to secure admission to any university.

If you donít address that, free uni is just another white privilege effectively.
That's where I come down.

When we manage to graduate 95% of students (right now its around 80%) from high school (which assumes 5% of people have issues that make graduating very difficult that public high schools can't address - like they are severely disabled), we can start talking about "free" college education.

When we fund our current public school system so that there is an adequate number of books for students regardless of the district, so that their facilities have adequate heat in the winter - we can start talking about "free" college education.

When we fund our current public school system so that students who can handle college level material have access to AP courses or dual enrollment (and teachers who can teach that material) so they aren't wasting two years with math that they already know and English coursework that they've already mastered, then we can talk about "free" college -

And at that point we will need a lot less of it. Because the education people get through high school will have prepared them for college - and some of them will already have AA degrees (about 5% of my kid's high school class graduates with AA degrees through dual enrollment programs).

And as a white person in a diverse neighborhood with college age kids, it drives me bonkers that my peer parents are complaining about college costs when they have been buying a new $50k SUV every three years since their kids were born (in many cases two, because his and hers new cars is a must). "Free" college is such a white privilege need in the U.S. And its also an "urban/suburban" privilege - free college means free college tuition, but if you live in rural Nebraska, you don't have access to a college with an affordable commute or without moving - unless you try for online learning or something.
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Old 02-11-2018, 12:05 PM
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If you get good marks and have good ACT or SAT scores, college is free or cheap. It all depends on the student wanting it. If they don't have incentive they won't succeed, throwing money at it won't fix that.
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Old 02-11-2018, 12:40 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
While I won't suggest the OP is baiting the hook by using the phrase "free college", I've had discussions with some less than forthright conservatives who want only to pounce on the idea of free anything. And they have a point - nothing is really free, it's a question of how it's paid for.

So having said that, I would gladly agree to pay for fully subsidized college for all through taxes.
I believe there are about 20 million Americans in college at any time. 15 million in public, 5 million in private.

If you don't subsidize the ones in private college or the ones that attend an out of state public college, I assume that works out to maybe ~12 million Americans who attend an in state public college.

Give each one about $8000 in subsidies, and that should cover most of their tuition (that'd cover tuition but books for community college). That works out to about $100 billion a year.

A big sum of money, but not the biggest we've ever spent (the Iraq war cost more).
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Old 02-11-2018, 01:27 PM
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And there are about 150 million people working (nonfarm), so that's just shy of $700/person per year if split evenly among the employed.

I'm guessing college could cost less while still covering its core education mission, but I don't have sufficient information to dissect the current costs.

Last edited by Ruken; 02-11-2018 at 01:27 PM. Reason: spel
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:04 PM
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And there are about 150 million people working (nonfarm), so that's just shy of $700/person per year if split evenly among the employed.

I'm guessing college could cost less while still covering its core education mission, but I don't have sufficient information to dissect the current costs.
And I have bigger priorities for the government to spend money on - the aforementioned public school system. Health care. Infrastructure improvements. Water for Flint, Michigan and restored electricity to Puerto Rico. Free college is somewhere in the double digits for spending priorities on my own list.

Can we do it? Sure - whats the opportunity cost?
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:21 PM
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And I have bigger priorities for the government to spend money on - the aforementioned public school system. Health care. Infrastructure improvements. Water for Flint, Michigan and restored electricity to Puerto Rico. Free college is somewhere in the double digits for spending priorities on my own list.

Can we do it? Sure - whats the opportunity cost?
Right now we have opportunity costs for having antiquated infrastructure, regressive health care funding, and backwards education.

In health care alone tens of thousands or avoidable of deaths per year due to for-profit insurance has to be a drag on the economy, aside from the human misery entailed in people putting off or denied medical care because they 'can't afford' it.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:01 PM
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If you get good marks and have good ACT or SAT scores, college is free or cheap. It all depends on the student wanting it. If they don't have incentive they won't succeed, throwing money at it won't fix that.
Please cite this, because when I went to school, I didn't see any of this. I had great scores and it cost a fortune*. Can you please explain how I could have used them to make college free/cheap, and where, and in which states, and what race or gender I needed to be, and how many of my score group would have gotten this deal?

Basically I think you're woefully mistaken but maybe things have changed.

*I went to a subsidized public school and it cost $80,000.

Last edited by SamuelA; 02-11-2018 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:07 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
Please cite this, because when I went to school, I didn't see any of this.
You didn't have scholarships when you went to school?

Quote:
Academic Scholarships typically use a minimum Grade Point Average or standardized test score such as the ACT or SAT to select awardees.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-11-2018 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:35 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
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You didn't have scholarships when you went to school?
K9, I hate to make this a personal criticism, but have you ever applied to a scholarship? Are you aware that just meeting some academic requirement doesn't mean you're going to get it? That there's only a small amount of that scholarship money. The vast majority of students with good grades and standardized test scores will not get a scholarship of any significance. (I got $1500 one year)


Also, a lot of scholarship money is earmarked in some way that leaves you ineligible for it. (you have to be under-represented, you have to want to do some oddball major or program that isn't a good bet, you have to be an athlete...)

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Old 02-11-2018, 03:40 PM
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You didn't have scholarships when you went to school?
My daughter is in the acceptance letter phase of high school. She's gotten scholarships from every school she applied to. None of them have come close to making college free or cheap - and she had a good GPA, excellent test scores, a bunch of AP tests at 4 and 5, and a fairly impressive leadership resume that includes camp counseling since middle school and tutoring homeless kids after school.

Now, she is applying to "par" schools - schools where the student body has similar test scores/grades and high school resumes. Its possible she would have gotten more money from schools looking to get their average test score/GPA up - but it wouldn't be as good of a fit. And she is applying to private schools - but generally private schools have better funding for scholarships. And we aren't looking for outside scholarships - its a lot of time for an uncertain outcome and we don't need the money - in fact, we've been funding the high schools theatre scholarship for the past three years (its just two $500 scholarships, not a full ride anywhere - the theatre kids are going to miss us with her graduating). But I doubt we could get enough money to make things free.

Planning on funding your kid's college through scholarships is not a good bet. Its like planning on funding medical care through a GoFundMe campaign.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:48 PM
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K9, I hate to make this a personal criticism,
And yet, for some reason, you do.
Quote:
but have you ever applied to a scholarship?
Yes, I have.
Quote:
Are you aware that just meeting some academic requirement doesn't mean you're going to get it?

That there's only a small amount of that scholarship money. The vast majority of students with good grades and standardized test scores will not get a scholarship of any significance. (I got $1500 one year)
Harvard disagrees with you.
Quote:


Also, a lot of scholarship money is earmarked in some way that leaves you ineligible for it. (you have to be under-represented, you have to want to do some oddball major or program that isn't a good bet, you have to be an athlete...)
Did you not actually read the link? Here's a larger expert.

Quote:
While the terms are frequently used interchangeably, there is a difference. Scholarships may have a financial need component but rely on other criteria as well.

Academic Scholarships typically use a minimum Grade Point Average or standardized test score such as the ACT or SAT to select awardees.

Athletic Scholarships are generally based on athletic performance of a student and used as a tool to recruit high-performing athletes for their school's athletic teams.

Merit Scholarships can be based on a number of criteria, including performance in a particular school subject or even club participation or community service.
And then there are grants that are based on financial need.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-11-2018 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:57 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
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Harvard disagrees with you.
Uhh...K9b you said you didn't finish college. Even if you did, you don't know anything. Harvard is the elite of the elite of the elite. Yeah, they have great scholarship programs, for the tiny percentage of all college students who get in. Out of 370 million Americans, only a few hundred k will have ever attended Harvard.

For the rest of the population paying for school is tough. Also, even Harvard doesn't give full rides to more than a tiny fraction of all students. The rest have the school chip in some, their family has to make an "expected family contribution" which can be unaffordable, and the rest has to be student loans.

Also I might note that between legacy admissions, admissions because you have connections, and the fact that test prep courses, impressive extracurriculars, and well written essays all are much easier if your family has lots of money, many Harvard students are wealthy and their families are paying the full tab.

Their annual cost is $63,000 a year. You what, wrote an essay and got a $1000 scholarship? Good luck.

Last edited by SamuelA; 02-11-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:00 PM
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So, first of all, the vast majority of high school students, even the top 1%, will not get into Harvard or any other school with an endowment that will cover all need. Harvard in fact, specifically does not give out merit scholarships - its all need based.

Two, federal GRANT money is extraordinarily limited. Most federal grants go to students whose families who make less than $20k a year - and the maximum award is less than $6k. https://www.scholarships.com/financi...ederal-grants/

If you are fortunate enough to get into Harvard, you probably won't need to worry too much about aid. But it has something like a 5% admittance rate. Even a 4.0 and a near perfect SAT score are not a guarantee of admission.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:05 PM
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Another bit of perspective. We're about to enter an era where it's probably gonna be mostly jobs that require a degree, with robots taking most low skill positions. A high school diploma is worth very little in the job market.

If we agree on state funded education at all, why stop at high school? For those who disagree and think the money should go elsewhere, why should the state pay for high school?

It just feels extremely arbitrary to stop there. 50 years ago the skills you'd pick up from graduating high school (and I guess doing metal shop or the auto shop, etc) might be enough to get a decent job somewhere. Basic clerking tasks, basic math, cashier jobs, you could work in a factory. But things have changed.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:13 PM
Ruken Ruken is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Harvard disagrees with you.
From that link:
Quote:
Aid is based entirely on need, not merit.
Not exactly in line with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
If you get good marks and have good ACT or SAT scores, college is free or cheap. It all depends on the student wanting it. If they don't have incentive they won't succeed, throwing money at it won't fix that.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:13 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Uhh...K9b you said you didn't finish college. Even if you did, you don't know anything. Harvard is the elite of the elite of the elite. Yeah, they have great scholarship programs, for the tiny percentage of all college students who get in. Out of 370 million Americans, only a few hundred k will have ever attended Harvard.

For the rest of the population paying for school is tough. Also, even Harvard doesn't give full rides to more than a tiny fraction of all students. The rest have the school chip in some, their family has to make an "expected family contribution" which can be unaffordable, and the rest has to be student loans.

Also I might note that between legacy admissions, admissions because you have connections, and the fact that test prep courses, impressive extracurriculars, and well written essays all are much easier if your family has lots of money, many Harvard students are wealthy and their families are paying the full tab.

Their annual cost is $63,000 a year. You what, wrote an essay and got a $1000 scholarship? Good luck.
So, you can't go to every and any college of choice. What you can do is go to community college as I did, and it was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants. I did have to pay a bit of tuition out of pocket, but the majority was covered. Books were extra, as obviously was room and board (I lived on my own), and so is not so easy. The fact that I had to wait until I was 25 so my parents were no longer part of my Fafsa applications sucked, but if they had actually been poor and not just assholes, then I would have gotten those grants at age 18. Had it played out that way, and I didn't have to work 2 jobs to support myself along with all the homework assigned, I probably would have been able to complete my degree.

But I was originally responding your claim that they were full of shit (which you did change upon edit), that college can be cheap or free to those with good grades. This is true. If your counterpoint is that you cannot get into any and every college that you want to go to for cheap or free, that is true as well, but is not a response to the point made.

And, my point about harvard was that yes, if your grades are good enough, and your need great enough, you can in fact go to a good college for free. That was something that you were indicating you never saw at all, even to the point of originally saying that the poster was full of shit because it was something that was outside of your experience.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:16 PM
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California's Community Colleges were free of tuition charges for many many decades ... and both state universities and UC campuses were dirt cheap to attend ... my understanding is that has changed now since it was quite expensive to the tax payers ... free tuition = higher taxes ... it's a choice ...
Not quite free. There was no tuition but of course the books and student body fee.

I think that almost free college would be a good idea.

Just enuf fees to make sure they take it seriously, without getting into massive student loan debt.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:21 PM
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Another bit of perspective. We're about to enter an era where it's probably gonna be mostly jobs that require a degree, with robots taking most low skill positions. A high school diploma is worth very little in the job market.

If we agree on state funded education at all, why stop at high school? For those who disagree and think the money should go elsewhere, why should the state pay for high school?

It just feels extremely arbitrary to stop there. 50 years ago the skills you'd pick up from graduating high school (and I guess doing metal shop or the auto shop, etc) might be enough to get a decent job somewhere. Basic clerking tasks, basic math, cashier jobs, you could work in a factory. But things have changed.
I absolutely agree that college education should be considered a part of our public education system like elementary, secondary and high school are.

We can certainly have private institutions, but there should be a way for everyone to get at least a 2 year associate's degree.

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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
From that link:Not exactly in line with:
You do need to get good marks and high scores in order to get into Harvard.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:24 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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So, you can't go to every and any college of choice. What you can do is go to community college as I did, and it was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants.
And, my point about harvard was that yes, if your grades are good enough, and your need great enough, you can in fact go to a good college for free. That was something that you were indicating you never saw at all, even to the point of originally saying that the poster was full of shit because it was something that was outside of your experience.
Yes, you can get into a community colleges for pretty damn cheap. Some work plying the grants and scholarships, and pretty much free. Sure. And, this is actually a great idea, and should be a requirement if you cant afford college- you cant take out student loans until you have finished two years of community college, and any scholarships outside of what you need to CC will wait for you.

But no, you can't "go to a good college for free," not in general. Maybe a very tiny % can, but it is not a solution for the vast majority.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:27 PM
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And, my point about harvard was that yes, if your grades are good enough, and your need great enough, you can in fact go to a good college for free.
Harvard is not a good example for common practice by most colleges, for several reasons, among them:

1. It is among the most highly selective colleges;
2. Itís endowment is massive, about 50% larger than the operating budget of the entire University of California system;
3. It has actually reformed its tuition policies so that families earning less than $150,000 pay a small fraction of the actual cost.

The number of universities that meet these criteria can be counted on one hand. Using Harvard as a model for the state of college education is an egrigious mistake, and one that frankly you should acknowledge.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
So, you can't go to every and any college of choice. What you can do is go to community college as I did, and it was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants. I did have to pay a bit of tuition out of pocket, but the majority was covered. Books were extra, as obviously was room and board (I lived on my own), and so is not so easy. The fact that I had to wait until I was 25 so my parents were no longer part of my Fafsa applications sucked, but if they had actually been poor and not just assholes, then I would have gotten those grants at age 18. Had it played out that way, and I didn't have to work 2 jobs to support myself along with all the homework assigned, I probably would have been able to complete my degree.

But I was originally responding your claim that they were full of shit (which you did change upon edit), that college can be cheap or free to those with good grades. This is true. If your counterpoint is that you cannot get into any and every college that you want to go to for cheap or free, that is true as well, but is not a response to the point made.

And, my point about harvard was that yes, if your grades are good enough, and your need great enough, you can in fact go to a good college for free. That was something that you were indicating you never saw at all, even to the point of originally saying that the poster was full of shit because it was something that was outside of your experience.
For the vast majority of students, even those with good grades, college will not be free. Cheap will depend on the circumstances of the kid - is $20k a year cheap? Is $50k a year cheap?

Here in Minnesota if you live near enough to a Minnesota State school, in state tuition is only about $8k a year. And they are pretty open enrollment. So if you don't need to pay for room and board, you could get a four year degree for $35k (its a little more than $8k and you'll need books). Which is pretty cheap to me, but may not be when your household income is $52k a year - too high for Pell Grant. And your degree is from a Minnesota State school. My degree is from a Minnesota State school, it isn't exactly a huge selling point on my resume. Its a college degree, it isn't a respected one. By the way, this is interesting (from looking at the Minnesota chart, its averaging - the University of Minnesota system is much more expensive than the Minnesota State system) https://trends.collegeboard.org/coll...ear-percentage

Beckdawrek's point was that if you have good test scores and good grades, college is free or cheap. There is no evidence to support that this is true. There is evidence that if you have good test scores and good grades, for a few students college is cheap or free. Within the context of this conversation, free college has a broader meaning than "a few students who are both talented and lucky will get free college" - the current status.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:43 PM
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If we agree on state funded education at all, why stop at high school? For those who disagree and think the money should go elsewhere, why should the state pay for high school?
The idea is to start with high school to better prepare kids for college. Meanwhile, phase in free CC, then state universities, then a high percentage of state-paid grants to private universities. It does nobody any good for students to start college for free and fail out because of piss-poor previous education.

Last edited by don't mind me; 02-11-2018 at 04:44 PM.
  #38  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:44 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post

You do need to get good marks and high scores in order to get into Harvard.
About 2000 students will join Harvard's Freshman class. There are far more than 2000 students with good marks and high scores in the U.S. alone - and as one of the premier Universities in the world, Harvard admits about 20% of its student body as international. A number of other spots are legacies, people with important connections, and Jared Kutchner (apparently his marks and test scores weren't great shakes, his father's contribution to Harvard however was). There are about 36,000 high schools in the U.S. alone, and about 15,000 national merit scholarship finalists (people with really high SAT scores).

Good marks and high scores are neither necessary nor sufficient.
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  #39  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:01 PM
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I am not talking about Harvard. But, The lil'wrekker got 3 offers for full rides and 3 partial scholarship offers. We compared and visited and got it down to 2 schools, we decided on the school closer to home. She wasn't the Top student in her highschool, she was in the upper third. She tests really well. Her ACT scores were very high, so that put her on some lists. She's has no sports skills. She is minoring in theatre and music, so theres is actually money for a good resume. She is working on that. She would like be a full theatre/music major. But for now it's English/lit. That's the only cite I can provide. You will have to take my word on it or not.
  #40  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:05 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
So, you can't go to every and any college of choice. What you can do is go to community college as I did, and it was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants.
I have taken courses at a local community college. I will say you're correct, those are much cheaper. The problem is the degrees that you need to be competitive in this modern world - engineering, computer science, even accounting - aren't typically offered by a community college. The 'big time' degrees are usually offered only at 4 year universities. The other issue is that employers for these type of jobs would rather hire someone from India with a Master's degree instead of your 2 or 4-year degree from a Community college.

I am sorry your parents were assholes. I had the same ones. They refused to give the financial information needed to even fill out the form, as if somehow 'the government' was gonna screw them if it knew. This is one of the reasons I am somewhat in favor of socialism, I think our social structure where each of our individual successes is about 80% due to the actions of our parents is deeply flawed.

I joined the military, that was a way around that rule, btw.

Last edited by SamuelA; 02-11-2018 at 05:07 PM.
  #41  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:07 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
Beckdawrek's point was that if you have good test scores and good grades, college is free or cheap. There is no evidence to support that this is true. There is evidence that if you have good test scores and good grades, for a few students college is cheap or free. Within the context of this conversation, free college has a broader meaning than "a few students who are both talented and lucky will get free college" - the current status.
My reason for posting was that SamuelA had declared Beckdawrek full of shit. Since he edited to remove that insult before I posted, I removed it from my reply as well. But, "full of shit" is different than not being a complete picture or quibbles about broader meanings.

There are options for higher education that are available to those with less means. This is entirely true. You do need to get good grades and work hard for them though.

Aside from that disagreement, I do think that there should be secondary education offered for free, including books, even travel expenses, maybe even a living subsidy so that students don't need to hold down full time jobs while studying. Maybe just starting with 2 year, but a 4 years degree should be affordable as well.
  #42  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:14 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
I have taken courses at a local community college. I will say you're correct, those are much cheaper. The problem is the degrees that you need to be competitive in this modern world - engineering, computer science, even accounting - aren't typically offered by a community college. The 'big time' degrees are usually offered only at 4 year universities. The other issue is that employers for these type of jobs would rather hire someone from India with a Master's degree instead of your 2 or 4-year degree from a Community college.
Most 2 year colleges have programs that transfer to the universities to complete your 4 year. In the meantime, you have an associates degree, which is not meaningless. I wanted one because it would have opened a number of doors for me in jobs that required a college degree.
Quote:
I am sorry your parents were assholes. I had the same ones. They refused to give the financial information needed to even fill out the form, as if somehow 'the government' was gonna screw them if it knew. This is one of the reasons I am somewhat in favor of socialism, I think our social structure where each of our individual successes is about 80% due to the actions of our parents is deeply flawed.
My parents had no problem providing the info that they had the money to pay for my college, the just had an issue with paying for my college because I was a liberal atheist in a conservative christian household.

I do agree that there is too much emphasis put on generational wealth transfers, and that ending both systemic poverty and effective aristocracy should be a goal of social efforts. Free college would be a good first step.
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I joined the military, that was a way around that rule, btw.
And then there is that. If one is willing to join the military, then you can get a free education from them too. I was never a big fan of authority figures though, I didn't think I could make it through bootcamp without assaulting a superior.
  #43  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:20 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
I am not talking about Harvard. But, The lil'wrekker got 3 offers for full rides and 3 partial scholarship offers. We compared and visited and got it down to 2 schools, we decided on the school closer to home. She wasn't the Top student in her highschool, she was in the upper third. She tests really well. Her ACT scores were very high, so that put her on some lists. She's has no sports skills. She is minoring in theatre and music, so theres is actually money for a good resume. She is working on that. She would like be a full theatre/music major. But for now it's English/lit. That's the only cite I can provide. You will have to take my word on it or not.
Lucky her. She is the exception, not the rule. My daughter is far beyond the upper third in her high school class (top 10%) with a 34 ACT (and a 1400+ on the SAT the only time she took it when she forgot her calculator and her ADHD medication and got lost on the way to the test - it wasn't a good day) and a 3.7 unweighted GPA - which weighted is significantly higher and included AP coursework in English, Math and Social Studies and college credit coursework in English, Math, Theatre, Economics, Political Science and two foreign languages (ASL and Spanish). She worked with homeless kids tutoring them. She was a Superior voice soloist in state competition and has acted on the Guthrie stage - one of the best regional theatres in the country. She raised over $10k for Relay for Life during high school. She was a youth delegate the the National UUA convention and gave talks on youth resilience. She got no full rides. (She did get partial scholarships from every school she applied to, and hasn't been turned down by a school yet (and since she was ED at her first choice, she's made her decision) - granted, we didn't even bother with Harvard - she isn't an Ivy kind of kid. And since we have a 529 that will fully fund her college, it isn't a big deal).
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
the just had an issue with paying for my college because I was a liberal atheist in a conservative christian household.
I remember being that kid. Why oh why couldn't I shut up and keep my opinions to myself. It's like biology wired my brain not to.
  #45  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:33 PM
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Where I see highschool students fall short is not taking their ACTs early and often. And not doing the leg work to apply for scholarships and grants. We got a book grant from the volunteer Fire Dept. Her dad is affiliated with. A small gift scholarship from his former employer. And a small scholarship from Woodman of the World. These were above her full ride at her University. I am telling you there is money out there, you have to apply, apply, apply. We are not eligible for Pell grants so we drove her highschool counselors crazy looking for grants and scholarships.
  #46  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:41 PM
Ruken Ruken is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
You do need to get good marks and high scores in order to get into Harvard.
And are those marks and scores sufficient to make Harvard free or cheap? No, they are not. Which you would know if you had read and understood your link. Got any more sage wisdom for those of us who actually attended schools that required good marks and high scores?
  #47  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:47 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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And are those marks and scores sufficient to make Harvard free or cheap? No, they are not.
You are correct, you need to have high marks and scores, along with a demonstrated financial need, in order to make Harvard free or cheap.
Quote:
Which you would know if you had read and understood your link.
Oh, I did understand my link, that's why I said what I did. It seems you are misunderstanding the policies by tone and nature of your post.
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Got any more sage wisdom for those of us who actually attended schools that required good marks and high scores?
No, I can impart no wisdom to those who have already declared themselves as superior.
  #48  
Old 02-11-2018, 05:51 PM
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Free college is actually one of the more doable social programs there is. The main issue is simply cost, and are American taxpayers willing to pay the cost. And, in a world of limited resources and very low taxpayer tolerance in the US, are those who support big government willing to prioritize it over other things? Because when liberals talk about the social programs they want to see, they don't tend to take into account the reality of limited revenues. The ambitions of some American liberals like Bernie Sanders go beyond what any European country's taxpayers would be willing to pay for. There is no such thing as a health care system that covers vision and dental and with no co-pays, AND covers illegal immigrants.

Back to free college, the way I see it, we can just have public colleges the way we have public high schools. Instead of people graduating high school and having to worry about getting into college, they'd just advance to college automatically the same way they go from middle to high school. They can choose to drop out, but it would be a social norm that you just continue to go to school unless you have a reason why you can't, such as living on your own and having to work two jobs or something. Such colleges should be no more expensive to run than high schools. And anyone can attend whenever they want. There would be some nominal fees, just to make sure people who attended were serious, but nothing even poorer families couldn't afford if they were committed to education. Things like lab fees and cheap textbooks.
  #49  
Old 02-11-2018, 07:19 PM
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Free college is actually one of the more doable social programs there is. The main issue is simply cost, and are American taxpayers willing to pay the cost. And, in a world of limited resources and very low taxpayer tolerance in the US, are those who support big government willing to prioritize it over other things? Because when liberals talk about the social programs they want to see, they don't tend to take into account the reality of limited revenues. The ambitions of some American liberals like Bernie Sanders go beyond what any European country's taxpayers would be willing to pay for. There is no such thing as a health care system that covers vision and dental and with no co-pays, AND covers illegal immigrants.
I think it differs depending on the European country, but here's what I've heard :

a. Bachelor's degrees are a standard of 3 years, not four. This obviously makes it cheaper on the government and there's probably a tradeoff between cost and quality.

b. I don't think they are nearly as deluxe or luxurious as modern American institutions. More the no-frills ones that our parents had to go to in the 1970s and earlier.

c. There's a fairly deterministic set of standardized exams that determine if you're even eligible for college at all. It doesn't make sense for the State to pay for students to go who have a low chance of succeeding. I've heard these so called "A levels" are much more comprehensive than SAT/ACT but I don't know much about them.
  #50  
Old 02-11-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor View Post
Tennessee offers 2 years free, at a Community College, or Technical School.
There are a few, easy to meet requirements.

It will change the face of this State, over ten years.
this sounds like an excellent thing to me
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