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  #51  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:34 PM
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Gun vioence has by-and-large declined over the last several decades. I guess what we're doing about that is working too?
But this thread isn't about "Gun violence by-and-large", is it? Let's leave those goalposts right where they are for now, o.k.?
  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:35 PM
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Can you tell me what we are doing to address gun violence?
NICS Improvement Act, concealed-carry legislation, additional people trained and armed for self defense, etc (just off the top of my head)

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  #53  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:36 PM
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But this thread isn't about "Gun violence by-and-large", is it? Let's leave those goalposts right where they are for now, o.k.?
"This thread" may not be, but the post I was responding to sure was.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-15-2018 at 02:37 PM.
  #54  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:37 PM
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Allow trained and qualified teachers to carry. This incident might have gone differently if the football coach had a gun of his own on his person.
That might work if the coach actually wanted to carry on school grounds. Did he?
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:38 PM
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you sound like Trump claiming...well, whatever bullshit and easily looked up 'fact' he's claiming this week.
Let's tone this down, XT. This could be interpreted as an accusation of lying. Try not to personalize things, please.
  #56  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:38 PM
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It was suggested in the OP that we should pay money to the victims of mass shootings, because the victims were paying the price for the Second Amendment.
This is not exactly what I've suggested. I don't think mass shootings are "the price for the Second Amendment", but rather the price for various policy decisions which are not required by the Second Amendment (in my understanding of arguments from folks like the late Justice Scalia) that make mass shootings particularly easy to accomplish, and deadlier than they might otherwise be, as well as (possibly) uniquely American cultural factors like a unique adoration for guns and gun violence.

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  #57  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:40 PM
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NICS Improvement Act, concealed-carry legislation, additional people trained and armed for self defense, etc (just off the top of my head)
So, we passed a law that said that, yes, if people are prohibited from buying guns do to their mental state, that does in fact need to be reported. It's a law that shouldn't have needed to be passed.

Your other examples are just putting more guns in public. Did this school shooter suffer from not being able to carry concealed? Was his problem that he was not well enough trained?
  #58  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:40 PM
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That might work if the coach actually wanted to carry on school grounds. Did he?
I don't know. I'd like those teachers that want to, and are trained and qualified, to have the opportunity to. It won't prevent every school shooting, but just like having bartenders cut off drunks, it will probably help in some cases. Agreed?
  #59  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:41 PM
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At what point during this massacre did the coach encounter the alleged shooter?
  #60  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:41 PM
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So, we passed a law that said that, yes, if people are prohibited from buying guns do to their mental state, that does in fact need to be reported. It's a law that shouldn't have needed to be passed.

Your other examples are just putting more guns in public. Did this school shooter suffer from not being able to carry concealed? Was his problem that he was not well enough trained?
No, the football coach / security guard is the one that suffered by not being able to carry at school. His problem was that he was unarmed.
  #61  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:42 PM
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At what point during this massacre did the coach encounter the alleged shooter?
I heard on the radio that he was shot very early on, but I doubt they've got a really detailed timeline released to the public yet, so there's probably no way to confirm that, yet.
  #62  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:51 PM
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I don't know. I'd like those teachers that want to, and are trained and qualified, to have the opportunity to. It won't prevent every school shooting, but just like having bartenders cut off drunks, it will probably help in some cases. Agreed?
For this plan to prevent any school shootings, the shooter would have to have no knowledge that the teacher carried otherwise he would just start shooting in another part of the school where that teacher wasn't there. Now if a high enough percentage of teachers carried so that there was a good chance that an armed teacher would be nearby no matter where in that large school he entered it would serve as a actual deterrent. The problem with this is that you would have to hire a certain percentage of teachers that are properly trained and willing to carry in school for such a purpose. Is this feasible?
  #63  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:53 PM
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No, the football coach / security guard is the one that suffered by not being able to carry at school. His problem was that he was unarmed.
And here I thought the problem was a mentally disturbed person was legally able to purchase an AR-15 and sneak onto a large high school campus.
  #64  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:54 PM
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This wasn't meant as yet another gun control thread, so I'll kindly request (in an unenforceable way, since I'm just a little ol' poster) that posters try to stay on the topic of the proposal in the OP.
  #65  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:56 PM
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This wasn't meant as yet another gun control thread, .
Sure it was. This "serious idea" is purely and obviously meant as a way to shame the anti-gun control types.
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  #66  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:56 PM
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For this plan to prevent any school shootings, the shooter would have to have no knowledge that the teacher carried otherwise he would just start shooting in another part of the school where that teacher wasn't there. Now if a high enough percentage of teachers carried so that there was a good chance that an armed teacher would be nearby no matter where in that large school he entered it would serve as a actual deterrent. The problem with this is that you would have to hire a certain percentage of teachers that are properly trained and willing to carry in school for such a purpose. Is this feasible?
There already is a certain percentage of teachers that are properly trained and willing to carry in school. Certainly more would be better, but there already are some. In most states, either the laws or school policy don't allow them to.

Ideally, the students (and everyone else) would not know which teachers might be carrying.
  #67  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This wasn't meant as yet another gun control thread, so I'll kindly request (in an unenforceable way, since I'm just a little ol' poster) that posters try to stay on the topic of the proposal in the OP.
I think that offering alternate proposals because the one proposed has holes in it is in the spirit of this thread, but I'm just a little ol' poster, too.
  #68  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:00 PM
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There already is a certain percentage of teachers that are properly trained and willing to carry in school. Certainly more would be better, but there already are some. In most states, either the laws or school policy don't allow them to.

Ideally, the students (and everyone else) would not know which teachers might be carrying.
What percentage would that be? Maybe a rough estimate based of polls, if possible?
  #69  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:04 PM
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What percentage would that be? Maybe a rough estimate based of polls, if possible?
I don't know that there have been any polls of teachers asking "would you carry in class if you were allowed?", but there are something like 15 million CCW permit holders in the country. That's 15 million out of roughly 250 million adults. Call it 6%?
  #70  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:05 PM
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This wasn't meant as yet another gun control thread, so I'll kindly request (in an unenforceable way, since I'm just a little ol' poster) that posters try to stay on the topic of the proposal in the OP.
I agree.

Please take general gun control, and discussion about the specific incident in Florida to another thread. iiandyiiii crafted a specific proposal that can be debated without being overtaken by the general discussion.

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  #71  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:08 PM
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Let's tone this down, XT. This could be interpreted as an accusation of lying. Try not to personalize things, please.
It wasn't meant to be at all, but I will definitely tone it down. My apologies all around.
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  #72  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:09 PM
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OP had yet to show us an actual proposal, let alone the costs or benefits. What are we trying to accomplish, why, and at what cost?
  #73  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:13 PM
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deleted: just saw the Mod note.

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  #74  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:19 PM
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OP had yet to show us an actual proposal, let alone the costs or benefits. What are we trying to accomplish, why, and at what cost?
Well, the OP didn't but you can roughly extrapolate what the cost would be (not sure what it would accomplish or why we'd do it). According to a quick Google search, there were approximately 535 mass shooting deaths in the US in 2017 (up from the previous year). So, make it 600. Death benefits for the families of combat soldiers seem to be "death gratuityis a payment of $100,000" (100% tax free btw, according to the article), so that would be a payout of $54,000,000, give or take. There are also a death pension and healthcare, but not sure if the OP meant those as well or just the death payment. There is also a housing allowance, but that's the same thing.

So...it would be something more than 54 million dollars that we'd be paying. Substantially more if we are talking about pensions, health care, and housing allowances. I got the military stats from this website and the mass shooting ones from this one.
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  #75  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:20 PM
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OP had yet to show us an actual proposal, let alone the costs or benefits. What are we trying to accomplish, why, and at what cost?
The actual proposal -- treat victims and families of victims of mass shootings like we treat the families of 9/11 victims, and/or soldiers wounded or killed in action and their families (it's my understanding that they are treated similarly).

Why? Because regular mass shootings are uniquely American, so I think this uniquely American phenomenon perhaps deserves particular attention, and those victims/survivors/families of this uniquely American phenomenon deserve particular recognition due to their involuntary sacrifice for the uniquely American freedom to very easily legally obtain extremely deadly firearms. We should recognize that they aren't dying for nothing, but rather dying so these weapons can be so easily acquired, and (perhaps) so America can continue with our unique cultural obsession with guns and gun violence, and such sacrifice, even when involuntary, should be recognized/honored/memorialized.

The cost? I'm not sure. Head-arithmetic doesn't give me any number that wouldn't be tiny compared to the federal budget.

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  #76  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:24 PM
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If we are talking about what we gave the 9/11 victims families, according to this:

Quote:
The fund received 2,963 death claims. This accounted for more than 98% of eligible families. Funds were distributed in 2,880 of these cases. The average award was $2,082,128 and went as high as $7.1 million.
Taking the high end of that, we get around $4.2 billion. BTW, if you want to extend this to all people who were murdered by guns (not just mass shootings) then it's $2 billion for the $100k payout and $77 billion for the 9/11 style payout. It's a lot more if we are talking all gun deaths (most of which would be suicides), but you have to make some lines somewhere.
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  #77  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:28 PM
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If we are talking about what we gave the 9/11 victims families, according to this:



Taking the high end of that, we get around $4.2 billion.
Okay, I didn't know that -- I'll retract the comparison to 9/11 victims. My proposal should just be that they are treated similarly to families of veterans killed in the line of duty (and those wounded should be treated similarly to wounded veterans).
  #78  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:29 PM
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If we are talking about what we gave the 9/11 victims families, according to this:



Taking the high end of that, we get around $4.2 billion.
That's getting into "I want to spend a couple of billion dollars just to prove a point!" territory.
No.

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  #79  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:33 PM
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nm, saw mod note

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  #80  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:36 PM
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Okay, I didn't know that -- I'll retract the comparison to 9/11 victims. My proposal should just be that they are treated similarly to families of veterans killed in the line of duty (and those wounded should be treated similarly to wounded veterans).
I just like to quantify stuff so we can see what we are really looking at. Not sure how you'd quantify what the military gives to wounded veterans injured in a combat zone, as it varies a lot and is part of their healthcare. They do get some severance pay, social security disability, up to $100k payout (but not sure how they assess this) and some sort of monthly compensation (same here). This could be pretty expensive as well, even if we are only talking about the victims of mass shootings, so you'd need to figure out exactly what benefits you want to compensate and it might be a sliding scale (i.e., if you were just injured, would be different than if you were completely disabled).
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  #81  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:37 PM
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You want to honor them?
Where is the honor in getting killed for no reason by a complete stranger? What do you tell the parents on that podium? "This award is for the bravery your daughter showed when she took a bullet to the back of the head while talking to her friends. We are so proud of her and what she did."
  #82  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:37 PM
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The OP's idea could backfire if prospective gunmen whose families are in bad financial straits decide that going on a mass shooting spree is a good way to get them out of the hole. Shoot and injure your parents or other relatives (while wounding and killing some of the neighbors), and your relatives get a nice chunk of change in the form of survivors' benefits.

Then we'd wind up essentially rewarding violent people for their actions, similar to families of Mideast terrorists receiving payments from their governments.*

*I'm unclear on whether the OP wants payments made only to victims of mass shootings, and whether bombings, stabbings etc. are also eligible crimes.
  #83  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:37 PM
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So...start paying the victims of mass shootings so that a very small percentage of the shooters might feel bad about it after the fact?
Oh, that's what you were objecting to? I thought you were rejecting the notion that some shooters might reconsider.

I don't personally compensation is that good an idea. I could even picture it being used to cover, or at least an effort to cover, murder for profit i.e. someone shoots up or hires someone to shoot up their spouse's workplace, to kill the spouse and at least three bystanders, to qualify for the compensation.
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  #84  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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The OP's idea could backfire if prospective gunmen whose families are in bad financial straits decide that going on a mass shooting spree is a good way to get them out of the hole. Shoot and injure your parents or other relatives (while wounding and killing some of the neighbors), and your relatives get a nice chunk of change in the form of survivors' benefits.

Then we'd wind up essentially rewarding violent people for their actions, similar to families of Mideast terrorists receiving payments from their governments.*

*I'm unclear on whether the OP wants payments made only to victims of mass shootings, and whether bombings, stabbings etc. are also eligible crimes.
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Oh, that's what you were objecting to? I thought you were rejecting the notion that some shooters might reconsider.

I don't personally compensation is that good an idea. I could even picture it being used to cover, or at least an effort to cover, murder for profit i.e. someone shoots up or hires someone to shoot up their spouse's workplace, to kill the spouse and at least three bystanders, to qualify for the compensation.
Yeah, that was my thought as well, that someone would use this as a way to profit. Also, as many have pointed out, what exactly is the goal here? To punish the American people because they allow guns, to make the costs of such things felt (more than they already are considering we already have life insurance and health care that will cover at least some of the victims)? If it's to help the families that need it, then maybe I could see some sort of life insurance thing and perhaps healthcare for those who aren't covered...if you asked every Amerian to pay $1 a year into a collective health insurance fund you could cover the payouts to anyone who doesn't have insurance and perhaps healthcare costs to anyone who doesn't have insurance and was injured. Not sure what to do about the possibility of abuse.
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  #85  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:47 PM
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Murders and violence aren't anywhere close to uniquely American, but regular mass shootings are uniquely American
No, they are not. The US has more gun violence all around that other, similar countries. But other, similar, countries do have mass shootings. Not just as common as here. Just as "regular" killings due to street violence is a lot more common in the US. It seems you are grasping at straws to justify this idea that you think will, somehow, make folks see things the way you do. But only someone who already sees things the way you do would agree that this is a good idea.

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Old 02-15-2018, 03:50 PM
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No, they are not. The US has more gun violence all around that other, similar countries. But other, similar, countries do have mass shootings. Not just as common as here. Just as "regular" killings due to street violence is a lot more common in the US. It seems you are grasping at straws to justify this idea that you think will, somehow, make folks see things the way you do. But only someone who already sees things the way you do would agree that this is a good idea.
And mass KILLINGS are something that is pretty common across the globe. China has a real issue with mass stabbings, for instance. It's just that mass shootings in the US really capture the attention of the media and are broadcast worldwide, often while they are still happening.
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  #87  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:52 PM
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The actual proposal -- treat victims and families of victims of mass shootings like we treat the families of 9/11 victims, and/or soldiers wounded or killed in action and their families (it's my understanding that they are treated similarly).

.....We should recognize that they aren't dying for nothing, but rather dying so these weapons can be so easily acquired, and (perhaps) so America can continue with our unique cultural obsession with guns and gun violence, and such sacrifice, even when involuntary, should be recognized/honored/memorialized.
(post shortened, underline added)

In what way are they treated similarly?

What federal/state/personal benefits do you believe should be given to a mass murderer's victims? Cards? Flowers? Memorial plaque? Statue? Purple Heart? VA rates on home loans? Allow a mass murders' surviving victims to use Veterans Affairs hospitals? A disability pension for PTSD?

What is preventing you from recognizing/honoring/memorializing the victims of other/all mass murders? You only seem to be concerned with mass shootings. Mass murders are not limited to shootings. Shouldn't the victims, and the families, of other types of mass murder also be recognized/honored/memorialized?
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
No, they are not. The US has more gun violence all around that other, similar countries. But other, similar, countries do have mass shootings. Not just as common as here. Just as "regular" killings due to street violence is a lot more common in the US. It seems you are grasping at straws to justify this idea that you think will, somehow, make folks see things the way you do. But only someone who already sees things the way you do would agree that this is a good idea.
According to this link, the US has 31% of all mass shootings with only 5% of the population:

http://time.com/4007909/gun-violence-mass-shootings/

Depending on how "mass shootings" are defined, they occur at about 5 per year to as often as every two weeks or so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s..._United_States

From what I can find, this frequency really is uniquely American. Maybe you wouldn't characterize it that way, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to do so.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
According to this link, the US has 31% of all mass shootings with only 5% of the population:

http://time.com/4007909/gun-violence-mass-shootings/

Depending on how "mass shootings" are defined, they occur at about 5 per year to as often as every two weeks or so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s..._United_States

From what I can find, this frequency really is uniquely American. Maybe you wouldn't characterize it that way, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to do so.
Since the great majority (69%) of mass shootings happen outside the US, it is simply not true that mass shootings are uniquely American. Having so many mass shootings is uniquely American, as compared to other developed countries, but so is having so much street crime.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:10 PM
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Since the great majority (69%) of mass shootings happen outside the US, it is simply not true that mass shootings are uniquely American. Having so many mass shootings is uniquely American, as compared to other developed countries, but so is having so much street crime.
I don't see how this corrects what iiandyiiii said. If anything, you're agreeing.
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  #91  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:11 PM
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Since the great majority (69%) of mass shootings happen outside the US, it is simply not true that mass shootings are uniquely American. Having so many mass shootings is uniquely American, as compared to other developed countries, but so is having so much street crime.
That's what I'm saying. Regular and frequent mass shootings are uniquely American.

Regular and frequent crime is not uniquely American, but regular and frequent mass shootings are.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:12 PM
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I don't see how this corrects what iiandyiiii said. If anything, you're agreeing.
His idea is that mass shootings are uniquely American and street crime is not. But in both cases it's the amount, not the thing itself. So, if we're going to canonize the victims of mass shootings, there is no reason not to do the same for victims of street violence.

It's like dinner. Most folks, everywhere eat dinner. But Americans EAT DINNER!!!

Last edited by John Mace; 02-15-2018 at 04:14 PM.
  #93  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
His idea is that mass shootings are uniquely American and street crime is not. But in both cases it's the amount, not the thing itself. So, if we're going to canonize the victims of mass shootings, there is no reason not to do the same for victims of street violence.

It's like dinner. Most folks, everywhere eat dinner. But Americans EAT DINNER!!!
The why behind this proposal is very obviously entirely subjective, so it's fine if you disagree with the need for it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:26 PM
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The why behind this proposal is very obviously entirely subjective, so it's fine if you disagree with the need for it.
I disagree with it because you are using the survivors as a prop for your campaign, and because it has a high probability of backfiring on you. You would be giving those that you oppose an out when you accuse them of doing nothing-they will take ownership of this idea to show that they are doing something.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:29 PM
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These families have sacrificed as much as those of military veterans (and I say that as a veteran myself). They should be entitled to the same sorts of benefits and honors. Especially since, as a country, we’re not doing a damn thing to stop these mass shootings.
...what exactly are these benefits and honors? Are you talking about things like medical expenses being paid, or are you talking about medals and a guaranteed plot at Arlington's?

If its the former, then I think that should be a no-brainer. How can any society sit back and allow things like this to happen? The obvious solution of course is "Universal Health Care." Not just looking after veterans and shooting victims: but everyone. But that's a whole different thread. If you mean the latter: then no. There are civilian medals that are available for "acts of bravery" and survivors (and those who didn't) should certainly be eligible for those.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:48 PM
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His idea is that mass shootings are uniquely American and street crime is not.
It is? Perhaps I am missing something, but it looks like he was talking about mass shootings, and you want to talk about mass shootings and street crime, he is not currently interested in talking about street crime, so you are presenting his opinion on his behalf?
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  #97  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:56 PM
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I disagree with it because you are using the survivors as a prop for your campaign, and because it has a high probability of backfiring on you. You would be giving those that you oppose an out when you accuse them of doing nothing-they will take ownership of this idea to show that they are doing something.
I'd certainly welcome those families' opinion, and if most opposed it I wouldn't be of favor of it. But what you call backfiring would actually be one of the goals - it would formally record (as much as can be done) that the United States recognizes that we, as a country, bear responsibility for the incredibly high frequency of mass shootings. ISTM that a huge portion of the country, including the government in power, denies this.
  #98  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:57 PM
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The why behind this proposal is very obviously entirely subjective, so it's fine if you disagree with the need for it.
Proposal to do what, specifically?
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:06 PM
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I'd certainly welcome those families' opinion, and if most opposed it I wouldn't be of favor of it. But what you call backfiring would actually be one of the goals - it would formally record (as much as can be done) that the United States recognizes that we, as a country, bear responsibility for the incredibly high frequency of mass shootings. ISTM that a huge portion of the country, including the government in power, denies this.
It won't record jack-it will either be called a grandstand play or be co-opted by gun rights activists like I said before, and as pointed out it will make those that didn't die in that particular fashion second-class victims.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 02-15-2018 at 05:07 PM.
  #100  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:09 PM
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It won't record jack-it will either be called a grandstand play or be co-opted by gun rights activists like I said before, and as pointed out it will make those that didn't die in that particular fashion second-class victims.
Okay, I disagree, for reasons already stated. I understand that you don't find those reasons compelling. Thanks for taking part in this discussion.
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