Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-15-2018, 10:38 PM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 14,654
Should we target ammo sales instead of gun sales for a solution to mass shootings?


No, we should not, because that is not a solution.
  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 10:40 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clothahump View Post
Should we target ammo sales instead of gun sales for a solution to mass shootings?


No, we should not, because that is not a solution.
No shit, but you should make an argument why. Unless you're saying that your reputation is so great that we all should just take your statement at face value.
  #53  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:52 PM
Flyer Flyer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate View Post
I'll be honest and say I have no idea how long properly stored ammo will perform as though it was brand new, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't count on WWI or WWII-era ammo being reliable. I've shot enough semi-autos to know that they are more prone to jam when using older ammo.
That's why all sensible people use revolvers.
  #54  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:11 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
That's why all sensible people use revolvers.
In one of these gun threads, someone posted about doing something with a ".44", and I remember thinking distinctly "WTF?!? Is a cowboy going rogue?"

ETA: It was this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
... suburban kids in newyork listening to a song about kicking in someones door brandishing a .44. ...
What song is there about kicking in someone's door brandishing a .44?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-16-2018 at 12:13 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-16-2018, 10:03 AM
mark24c mark24c is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 21
Koka Kola by the Clash-"coming through the door is a snub nosed 44"
  #56  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:22 PM
Inigo Montoya Inigo Montoya is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the level, if inclined
Posts: 14,197
No data, but I strongly suspect the circle of aficionados who can do their own reloads does not intersect with the circle of people prone to mass murder. So I don't know that focusing on the reload gear is meaningful. In fact, the reloaders I know are gun-responsible bordering on obsessive. If anything, I'd nominate them to run the armory to store the firearms for the other people in their neighborhoods.

Manufactured ammo might have quite a long shelf life, but you kind of need to shoot it off once in a while just to maintain proficiency with the firearm. Again, I think the circle of people who keep 10,000 rounds on hand doesn't intersect with the circle of people prone to mass murder.

As far as targeting military calibers, I don't think that would be useful in the long term. You'd just end up with more weapons that take .30-30 and 9mm and such. And I'm pretty sure I could raise absolute hell in an elementary school with just a .17 or .22 cal plinking rifle with a bunch of 10-round magazines.

I actually have ideas for discussing what to do about the shootings, but maybe in another thread. This is about ammo, right?
__________________
Y'all are just too damned serious. Lighten up.

Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 02-16-2018 at 12:23 PM.
  #57  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:27 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 35,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
What's the source for this information? And as an aside, anyone know the races of the victims?
So now that Little Nemo has answered your question, how about answering mine:


Kid was a member of a White racist militia. How about we ban white racist groups?
__________________
I am not a real Doctor
  #58  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:40 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
So now that Little Nemo has answered your question, how about answering mine:


Kid was a member of a White racist militia. How about we ban white racist groups?
I'm a bit more keen on maintaining the Constitution's guarantees on free speech and association, so, no.

As for his membership in the group, it seems that there is some dispute about that.

Quote:
The leader of a white nationalist militia Thursday night appeared to walk back his earlier statements that Florida shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was a member of his group. Law enforcement in Tallahassee, Florida, said they had no record of Cruz being part of the organization.
  #59  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:44 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 35,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'm a bit more keen on maintaining the Constitution's guarantees on free speech and association, so, no.
Ok, good reply. So for those of you suggesting ammo restrictions, what do you think?

Kid was reported as being a member of a White racist militia. How about we ban white racist groups?
__________________
I am not a real Doctor
  #60  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:45 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,423
You might note something here : https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen...name=frontpage

Yeah, everyone that actually died happened to be a white person. 8 girls, 8 guys, 1 teacher. Basically it appears that the shooter was just shooting anyone he had a shot on.

The ironic thing is that if this 'racist group' had taken in this disturbed kid as a member, he might have felt better, being with his racist friends, and never committed this crime.

Last edited by SamuelA; 02-16-2018 at 12:47 PM.
  #61  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:53 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,236
Did no one read my post? The "he was a member of a racist group" reports appear to be wrong.

CBS News: White nationalist leader walks back comments that shooting suspect was group member

Quote:
Leon County law enforcement sources told the Tallahassee Democrat they could not find any information linking Cruz to ROF. "We are still doing some work but we have no known ties between the ROF, Jordan Jereb or the Broward shooter," Sheriff's Office spokesman Lt. Grady Jordan told the Tallahassee Democrat. The sheriff's office has arrested Jereb at least four times since January 2014 and has been monitoring ROF's membership.
This shooting appears to have absolutely nothing to do with race / racism.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-16-2018 at 12:54 PM.
  #62  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:56 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,514
I think a poster upthread nailed the issue: It's impossible to ban ammunition to the point of suppressing a massacre or school shooting from happening, unless you do it to the draconian extent that all amateur/hobby-ish shooting is also rendered impossible (the folks who shoot off hundreds of rounds over the weekend at a range.) It only takes one bullet to kill a person, and a few dozen or hundred to carry out a massacre.
  #63  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:34 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 35,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Did no one read my post? The "he was a member of a racist group" reports appear to be wrong.
That isnt my point at all.

Let's take it as a hypothetical, then.

If you want to ban ammo, why can't we ban white racist " militias"?
__________________
I am not a real Doctor
  #64  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:37 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
That isnt my point at all.

Let's take it as a hypothetical, then.

If you want to ban ammo, why can't we ban white racist " militias"?
We can if they step over the line. It's not illegal to have weaponry, it's not illegal to have a racist club. It's not illegal to say negative things about minorities while conducting club meetings. It would be illegal to actually plan specific attacks as part of a 'race war' that these militias are hoping to incite.

It would be illegal to even be part of the organization if you could prove the organization was more than just protesting while holding guns and talking shit. If you could trace murders of minorities to the organization and show the club's membership actively aided and abetted the crimes, you could then shut it down and arrest everyone.

Last edited by SamuelA; 02-16-2018 at 01:38 PM.
  #65  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:42 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 35,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
We can if they step over the line. It's not illegal to have weaponry, it's not illegal to have a racist club. It's not illegal to say negative things about minorities while conducting club meetings. It would be illegal to actually plan specific attacks as part of a 'race war' that these militias are hoping to incite.

It would be illegal to even be part of the organization if you could prove the organization was more than just protesting while holding guns and talking shit. If you could trace murders of minorities to the organization and show the club's membership actively aided and abetted the crimes, you could then shut it down and arrest everyone.
So, what you're saying is that if they actually do something illegal, then we can ban them. Fair enough.

Then ipso facto, why ban guns or ammo until and if the owner does something illegal?
__________________
I am not a real Doctor
  #66  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:49 PM
Gary Kumquat Gary Kumquat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clothahump View Post
Should we target ammo sales instead of gun sales for a solution to mass shootings?


No, we should not, because that is not a solution.
Why? I asked this in another thread but will repeat the question here. Why not increase the current ATF tax on ammo by 200% and ringfence those funds for guards, victim aid, or similar. If you're just going to argue that these events can't be prevented why not at least generate funds to mitigate the damage.
  #67  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:57 PM
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 33,332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Kumquat View Post
Why? I asked this in another thread but will repeat the question here. Why not increase the current ATF tax on ammo by 200% and ringfence those funds for guards, victim aid, or similar. If you're just going to argue that these events can't be prevented why not at least generate funds to mitigate the damage.
You could do this. I'm not sure it would achieve anything except generating more funds, but that seems to be your goal, and it certainly has worked in the US for tobacco and alcohol...and even sodas in some states. I'm a bit skeptical that, once the government ups the tax that the money would go where you think it would go, but it's more viable than trying to ban sales.

Would you also put similar taxes on all of the various reloading equipment and materials? I think you'd have to, but not sure what the ramifications of that would be.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #68  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:04 PM
Gary Kumquat Gary Kumquat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
I'm a bit skeptical that, once the government ups the tax that the money would go where you think it would go, but it's more viable than trying to ban sales.

Would you also put similar taxes on all of the various reloading equipment and materials? I think you'd have to, but not sure what the ramifications of that would be.
For the first part, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to legislate that all revenue raised is paid into a fund that must be used purely for purposes that will either avoid or provide aid to the victims of such incidents.

For the second part, absolutely. Tax sales of propellant, cartridges, etc.
  #69  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:08 PM
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 33,332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Kumquat View Post
For the first part, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to legislate that all revenue raised is paid into a fund that must be used purely for purposes that will either avoid or provide aid to the victims of such incidents.

For the second part, absolutely. Tax sales of propellant, cartridges, etc.
I wouldn't be opposed. Of course, that's easy for me to say as I don't have a gun. However, I have been hit by both alcohol and tobacco tax increases, and I lived through both so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially if the money is used well.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #70  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:00 PM
Ispolkom Ispolkom is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fly-Over Country
Posts: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I would say the shelf life of ammo is how long it is still reliable. I would not call a clip of 20 rounds as having a shelf life of 20 years if only six shells fire when you try them.
A couple of years ago I inherited several hundred cartridges that my father had purchased in the 1970s: .22 Long Rifle, .38 Special, .357 Magnum. Only one .22 cartridge failed. One data point.
  #71  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:32 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 35,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
But that only means it might still be dangerous.

I would say the shelf life of ammo is how long it is still reliable. I would not call a clip of 20 rounds as having a shelf life of 20 years if only six shells fire when you try them.

.
We fired clean ww2 rounds, 999 of 1000.

WW1 rounds, however, maybe 80% worked.
__________________
I am not a real Doctor
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017