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  #151  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:19 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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That's why I didn't say "Said" I said "Sounds like". Every single community in America is a mix of higher income and lower income people. But you focus on this one community and suggest that the (white, higher income) group should be allowed to secede from a (Native American, lower-income) community, the impetus for which is the fact that one group (Native American, lower-income) managed to get proportional political representation for the first time.
HurricaneDikta, I fully admit that I could just be misreading you. Do you happen to have a link of you elsewhere supporting a community seceding from a larger (same-race!) community? If so I'll admit that I got your motivations wrong.
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  #152  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:27 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
HurricaneDikta, I fully admit that I could just be misreading you. Do you happen to have a link of you elsewhere supporting a community seceding from a larger (same-race!) community? If so I'll admit that I got your motivations wrong.
That's an interesting challenge. I don't know if I've ever posted on such a specific topic. Would you count these?

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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If any red state(s) got serious about secession, I'd move there and advocate for it. I doubt the US.gov would go to war to stop it if it were supported by a majority of the population, but if they did, I'd fight back.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Is the "we" here California or the rest of the states? Frankly, if California wanted to leave, I'd shrug and say, "ok, go ahead", just like I expect most Californians would say if Texas decided to secede.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I, for one, am rather sympathetic to the Brits' new-found respect for the right to self-determination. If California wants to leave, I say, "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out".
Also, you might find this post interesting given the discussion around the tax base:

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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
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Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Let the consolidated-metro State of Chicagoland deal with all the urban and suburban and exurban problems of that metro area; and let the government of the remainder of Illinois deal with its small-city and small-town and rural problems, no longer using Chicago's tax base, and no longer spending money or worry on Chicago's problems either.
There are some people in Colorado that like that idea: Northern Colorado Secession: Most In Favor Of 51st State At First Public Meeting ...

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-12-2019 at 11:27 AM.
  #153  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:30 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
And to the point that the natives are "takers"- the entire region used to be native land. The whites took most of it, then turn around and accuse the natives of paying insufficient property tax, blissfully unaware, apparently, of where the property came from.

Greed makes people daft. Easier to suggest that, because they "all" vote for Democrats, therefore they are All "liberals", and you know what that means. Far easier than grappling with the real issues, as usual.
You might be interested to know that Bluff, Utah was founded in 1880 (by white Mormons) and the southern portion of San Juan County wasn't added to the Navajo reservation until four years later.
  #154  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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Nevertheless, the problem is obviously one of government.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, so could you elucidate?

The government has a hand in EMS/ambulance service across most of rural America because it's not an economically viable proposition otherwise. Even my own county, which hosts the state capitol, subsidizes a private provider to the tune of $300K/year, and we are large enough to have multiple full-time ambulance crews rather than relying on volunteers and part-timers as so many smaller communities do (and EMS services here are mostly the responsibility of the fire departments, which are primarily taxpayer-funded).
  #155  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:36 AM
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That settles that. White mormons were there first.
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  #156  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:39 AM
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And this is relevant to the argument how?

The Navajo were already present in what became the southern part of the state of Utah some centuries before Joseph Smith started having visions of the golden plates.
  #157  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:52 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
That's an interesting challenge. I don't know if I've ever posted on such a specific topic. Would you count these?
Yeah, I would. I withdraw my criticism--you have a principled position (that I happen to disagree with).
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  #158  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:55 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Yeah, I would. I withdraw my criticism--you have a principled position (that I happen to disagree with).
Thanks
  #159  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
While residents on the reservation do not pay property taxes on their homes, residential property taxes are not the most significant source of funding for the county anyway. Over half of the county's property tax revenue comes from oil and gas properties and equipment, much of it on the reservation; a quarter of the county's budget comes from federal grants and other intergovernmental transfers, with the reservation being a major reason for these.
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Originally Posted by Railer13 View Post
You are correct in your suspicion that no property taxes are paid on reservation lands. But Slash2k pointed out where the tax money comes from.

My point remains that if secession is successful, there are a lot of things that will need to be duplicated. And that will cost a lot of money. Which is certainly one of the reasons that the Navajo are opposed to it.
That doesn't exactly jibe with the study done in '97 quoted on the first page:
Quote:
If San Juan was split along the reservation's border, the new south county would have $2.1 million - $434 per person - in operating capital in the year 2000, the study projected. The northern county would have almost four times that amount - $8.1 million.

Without a split, San Juan County would have $801 per person.
But regardless, istm that a split actually makes sense in some logistical and jurisdictional ways. First of all, some duplication of services is already required. The ambulance wait times seems ample proof of that. A quarter of the county is tribal lands that the county sheriffs and courts have no jurisdiction over with another quarter being "private Indian trust fund" held.

People are being a little too blase comparing this to some other ethnic divides. In my mind to say "that tribe should have its own county" is very very different from saying "the African Americans should have their own county".
  #160  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, so could you elucidate?

The government has a hand in EMS/ambulance service across most of rural America because it's not an economically viable proposition otherwise. Even my own county, which hosts the state capitol, subsidizes a private provider to the tune of $300K/year, and we are large enough to have multiple full-time ambulance crews rather than relying on volunteers and part-timers as so many smaller communities do (and EMS services here are mostly the responsibility of the fire departments, which are primarily taxpayer-funded).
Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate.
  #161  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:16 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate.
What's the alternative?
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  #162  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:41 PM
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People are being a little too blase comparing this to some other ethnic divides. In my mind to say "that tribe should have its own county" is very very different from saying "the African Americans should have their own county".
I would agree with this statement.

However, the reality is that the white population is saying "the whites should have their own county." And the Navajos are opposed to a secession.
  #163  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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I would agree with this statement.

However, the reality is that the white population is saying "the whites should have their own county." And the Navajos are opposed to a secession.
Are they though? All the articles I have seen so far have one of the Native councilmen saying it wouldn't be good. It could very well be that the majority of Navajo would be fine with it. Have I missed something where the tribal leadership has spoken on the issue?

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-12-2019 at 02:02 PM.
  #164  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:03 PM
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I foresee problems with all political arrangements. My big thing is scale. I like to keep conflict on a small scale. Centralization results in large scale conflict.
Maybe if things were starting from scratch.

But the reality is that there are already-established foci of power (at many scales) that aren't gonna go away. To ignore their existence is just a fantasy.
  #165  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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The Navajo were already present in what became the southern part of the state of Utah some centuries before Joseph Smith started having visions of the golden plates.
Right. First they were recast as something they were not, namely the lost tribe of Israel, itinerant Jews who came to the New World, where they flat-out rejected Jesus when they had the chance to do otherwise. This kind of false narrative is a great way to get people seething with unspoken accusations against members of some out-group.

Now, they are recast as something they are not, namely "liberals" (and you know what That means). This kind of false narrative is a great way to get people seething with unspoken accusations against members of some out-group.
  #166  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:56 PM
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Perhaps a brief discussion on secession is in order. If, say, Quebec wanted to secede from Canada, or Scotland from the UK, who thinks it appropriate for the rest of Canada, or the rest of the UK to have the power to veto that decision? What about when a nation wants to leave the EU? Should the rest of the EU get to vote on that too?
Just to be clear: there would be very few people in the UK who think that states should be allowed to secede from the union without any power of veto from the federation. The Irish clearly thought that, but they aren't part of the UK anymore.

The issue with the EU was that the UK did not want to become part of that country: had been promised all along that economic union did not mean political union, and are in the process of breaking the economic union to prevent political union.

Don't assume that the rest of the world sees politics the way you do.

Last edited by Melbourne; 02-12-2019 at 03:57 PM.
  #167  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:59 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... Don't assume that the rest of the world see politics the way you do.
I'm not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject.
  #168  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:12 PM
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I'm not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject.
A break up of political entities should be mutual.

If both sides no longer wish to be associated with each other, then they can work out an equitable split. If they cannot come to a compromise on division of assets, then they stay together.

It should not be unilateral.
  #169  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:35 PM
Malden Capell Malden Capell is offline
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Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post
Just to be clear: there would be very few people in the UK who think that states should be allowed to secede from the union without any power of veto from the federation. The Irish clearly thought that, but they aren't part of the UK anymore.

The issue with the EU was that the UK did not want to become part of that country: had been promised all along that economic union did not mean political union, and are in the process of breaking the economic union to prevent political union.

Don't assume that the rest of the world sees politics the way you do.

The bolded bit ain't true, though. Sorry for slight detail. Political cooperation and plans for a European Union were well known before the UK even joined the EC.

Carry on.


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  #170  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:45 PM
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A county government isn’t a sovereign entity. A county split is nothing like withdrawing from a political union. It’s not a group of people refusing to treat another group of fellow citizens as deserving of the benefits of the advantages of living in the same society and a refusal to share political power and societal resources with others based on their race or class status. It’s just another form of white flight.
  #171  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:51 PM
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Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate.
The government ambulance service is as adequate as the previous county commissioners were willing to fund (which is in fact apparently a significant reason why the Navajo majority thinks they haven't been treated particularly fairly by the previous county commissions).

However, your statement here doesn't seem to accord with your previous statement:

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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I blame the ridiculous people who think the government should be in charge of where ambulances are stationed.
Who, exactly, are you calling ridiculous? I don't see that the Navajo residents of southern San Juan County are ridiculous for thinking that more of the county's budget should be spent on providing ambulance service in their neighborhoods, as opposed to locating the service primarily for the benefit of the (mostly white) residents of northern San Juan County. Are you arguing that they are ridiculous for thinking that, or what?

Saying "well, the government should not be involved in ambulances at all" ignores the reality of life in San Juan County, or for that matter most of rural America, where private health care providers don't operate ambulances because there isn't a profit to be made. Whoever is making decisions about ambulance location in San Juan County, public money is ultimately paying for it, so who should the deciders be?

(As it happens, after years of inaction by the white-dominated county, the Utah Navajo formed their own separate ambulance service, funded mostly with tribal and federal monies, so ambulance service probably isn't as big a deal as it used to be in county politics.)
  #172  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:07 PM
Railer13 Railer13 is offline
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Are they though? All the articles I have seen so far have one of the Native councilmen saying it wouldn't be good. It could very well be that the majority of Navajo would be fine with it. Have I missed something where the tribal leadership has spoken on the issue?
No, you haven't missed anything. I assumed (yes, I know what that means) that the councilman who was quoted was speaking on behalf of the tribe, when clearly he was not.

For that matter, we don't know if the majority of whites are in favor of secession, either.
  #173  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:32 PM
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Africa

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And that lesson is: white people shouldn't have to put up with non-white rule.
Africa as a whole, and places like Zimbabwe in particular, just show that what goes round goes round.

As for decolonization, the former colonies cut across ethnic and tribal borders, but none of the now independent countries have ever adjusted their borders.
  #174  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:49 PM
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Look, I don’t know jack about this issue other than what I read in the OP and the link. But at first glance, it looks like apartheid has ended in one country in Utah... and the first reply is a criticism of liberals? WTF?
By someone who wanted to derail the conversation.
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Last edited by Chimera; 02-14-2019 at 06:53 PM.
  #175  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:06 AM
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That would be great, thanks! The return of the city-state would be ideal.
I think I speak for at least one of us when I say that it might be intriguing to hear your best example of a city-state.

Sparta is famous as a progressive city-state — indeed Aristotle called it a gynecocracy! — but it was class-conscious. Is classism a libertarian ideal? :—
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Spartan citizens were debarred by law from trade or manufacture, which consequently rested in the hands of the Perioikoi.
Of course the Perioikoi had it better than the Helots:
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Originally Posted by Myron of Priene
They assign to the Helots every shameful task leading to disgrace. For they ordained that each one of them must wear a dogskin cap (κυνῆ / kunễ) and wrap himself in skins (διφθέρα / diphthéra) and receive a stipulated number of beatings every year regardless of any wrongdoing, so that they would never forget they were slaves. Moreover, if any exceeded the vigour proper to a slave's condition, they made death the penalty; and they allotted a punishment to those controlling them if they failed to rebuke those who were growing fat.
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Originally Posted by Thucydides
The helots were invited by a proclamation to pick out those of their number who claimed to have most distinguished themselves against the enemy, in order that they might receive their freedom; the object being to test them, as it was thought that the first to claim their freedom would be the most high spirited and the most apt to rebel. As many as two thousand were selected accordingly, who crowned themselves and went round the temples, rejoicing in their new freedom. The Spartans, however, soon afterwards did away with them, and no one ever knew how each of them perished.
  #176  
Old 02-18-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to "take their ball and leave" if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? Do you have a position that can be reasonably applied to all of those situations? Is there some nuance in San Juan County that merits a different set of principles in your opinion? Or do you always oppose secession? Or just when it's Republicans considering it?
You missed your calling by 150 years with the Confederacy.

Seriously, many states require agreement by all parties in the partitioning of counties.

Sometimes they do agree, other times not. There is no unilateral leaving.
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  #177  
Old 02-18-2019, 12:17 PM
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So political disputes should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts 150 years ago.
The losers must accept the order of things. Especially when the winners were magnanimous in not reducing their status back to territories that would have needed to earn back the benefits of full statehood.
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  #178  
Old 02-18-2019, 12:59 PM
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So, the political disputes of 150 years from now should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts today. Gotcha.
  #179  
Old Yesterday, 09:22 AM
YamatoTwinkie YamatoTwinkie is offline
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I'm not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject.
I think secession should have a high bar for both parties. At least 100% of the combined vote between both the child territory and the remaining parent territory must agree to the breakup. (i.e, if 90% of the child territory votes to leave, then at least 10% of the parent territory must also approve the split).
  #180  
Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM
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The losers must accept the order of things. Especially when the winners were magnanimous in not reducing their status back to territories that would have needed to earn back the benefits of full statehood.
This county was a loser in the Civil War?
  #181  
Old Yesterday, 08:18 PM
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Oh geez. I thought Utah wanted to split the U.S. I'd say yes! Give the star to Puerto Rico. However, I'm still hoping Texas splits.
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