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  #351  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:36 PM
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Trudeau has been in the papers again, being criticized for his response to the railways being blocked by protestors. Cancelled his vacation. Said it’s up to police discretion to deal with the problem.

The right to protest is important. And police and politics should be as separate as possible. But I felt uneasy when folks were allowed to block the highways around Toronto over an obscure foreign dispute, and I don’t think continuing to block rail lines is reasonable given its importance to our country.

No one wants a repeat of some previous crises where responses were excessive. But it is wrong to hold others hostage over a mild to moderate grievance. I see pipelines as necessary and think real and reasonable consultation with stakeholders important. The original consultations were slipshod. But it still has to be possible for Canadians to do business, and sometimes that means enforcing the law, hopefully with compassion and fairness, if diplomatic talks are not progressing. Much reconciliation work may remain, but this simply is not the avenue for change. It causes a degree of ill will. It sets a poor precedent and regrettable example. I don’t know the answers, but I know this isn’t the way they should be found.
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  #352  
Old 02-16-2020, 09:10 PM
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We live in a country where First Nations people can have all the rights they want until they start interfering with the potential profits of the oil industry at which time the RCMP will deploy in force, prepared to murder.

Again, if Gord Downie was alive to write a song about this, any mentions of Trudeau would not be complimentary.
  #353  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:24 PM
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We live in a country where First Nations people can have all the rights they want until they start interfering with the potential profits of the oil industry at which time the RCMP will deploy in force, prepared to murder. ...
Wow. Only the first five words of this response are true. That's some seriously misunderstood hyperbole right there.
  #354  
Old 03-19-2020, 04:34 PM
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Canada seems able to set aside partisan bickering during crises. Coronavirus is a big health and economic challenge for any government. So how has Trudeau done?

So far, I would say fairly well. I think he listened to Canadian experts and largely took necessary steps. Yes, hospitals are still underresourced and the economy is postponed. But better to be big as long as things are dialed back as soon as reasonable. We are lucky to have had time to observe other places and to have had some local experience with epidemics.

Still, many challenges lay ahead. Do you folks think he has done okay thus far? Despite delays, decentralized messaging, so many known and unknown concerns?
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  #355  
Old 03-19-2020, 05:11 PM
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I'm a Conservative: no surprise. Trudeau, and his Liberals have handled this extremely well. I have zero complaints.
  #356  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:59 AM
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He's got a beard now. Sort of a goatee style
  #357  
Old 04-06-2020, 11:09 AM
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Its to distance him from his previous image which was a cultivated ascendant, devil-may-care reincarnation of PET persona, but became a "fun-time" irresponsible rich-frat-boy persona after all the black face photos came out. The goatee is to remind people that he isn't a young kid anymore, but a responsible adult. Trudeau is someone who works tirelessly on public relations and image.
  #358  
Old 04-06-2020, 12:22 PM
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All Canadian governments focus on perception as much as policy. I’d be 0.3% happier if I never heard the phrase “we’re going to travel the country to talk to the people and get their opinions about subject X” on any mildly controversial hot potato like marijuana, gun control or whatever else.

But Trudeau has done well on the coronavirus file apart from the curious and serious overreach in grabbing power for long periods of time, instantly dialed back. He has been both tough and diplomatic with the US. He has emphasized the seriousness and offered somewhat reasonable solutions. Ford has also benefited from these rare displays of maturity. But, as I have said elsewhere, it is easy to take bold steps and tougher to dial them back quickly. I hope Trudeau does this well, for the sake of all Canadians.
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  #359  
Old 04-11-2020, 01:29 PM
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Viral pandemics are a funny sort of crisis. Hard to predict. Hard to quantify. An enormous potential for harm and hysteria that spooks the markets and spooks the citizenry.

The Chinese reportedly use the expression “copying homework” (in a somewhat condescending way) to refer to countries that mimic Chinese methods. These might include physical distancing, uses of technology or travel restrictions. Presumably this does not include wet markets or untraditional foodstuffs.

Given reported successes, a lot of countries implemented varying degrees of social distancing at different times. Obviously, this can significantly influence local and global economies.

Given enormous uncertainty, and wanting to be cautious, I would say Trudeau has done a fairly good job on this difficult file. Doug Ford has also been fairly sensible. I’m not a big fan of the phrase “leaders that we need right now”. People come together during crises, and other governments eventually are doing similar things. Copying homework. They don’t know what to do, and listening to scientists for a change is a better option than others.

But they need a game plan for getting back to normal, even if the virus determines the timeline. The Canadian and Ontario governments were initially slow but acted big and acted quickly. People have generally been accepting. The Opposition has been almost invisible, except during the Trudeau overreach. However, the hard parts have not been done. I’m not even sure they have been addressed. How will preparedness and procurement change? How will taxes and social structures? How will things return to normal? Not long ago, the railways were shut down by protesters and the oil patch was the main economic problem.
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  #360  
Old 04-11-2020, 03:56 PM
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  #361  
Old 04-11-2020, 10:54 PM
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That’s a drop in the newly enlarged bucket. Gotta pay for the roads, city public transport and climate change somehow. They’ll have to get more serious about evaders and creative multinationals.
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  #362  
Old 04-11-2020, 10:55 PM
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My experience with northern oceans is limited but “hot sun” isn’t the first thing that comes to mind.
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  #363  
Old 04-12-2020, 12:49 AM
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My experience with northern oceans is limited but “hot sun” isn’t the first thing that comes to mind.
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  #364  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:11 PM
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A terrible tragedy in peaceful Nova Scotia. So NOW is the time to finally introduce reasonable gun control. As always.

Enough cross-country consultation. I get that some people like to hunt and own weapons. These should be reasonably chosen to make hunting challenging and misuse as rare as possible.

I hope Trudeau goes full New Zealand here.
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  #365  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:38 PM
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If he does, be prepared for Western alienation to go through the roof, and for separatist sentiment to reach an all-time high in the west.
  #366  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:54 PM
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Well, how do you suggest he react to the biggest shooting in Canadian history?

I know my share of hunters and plenty of military types who I suspect are gun enthusiasts. I love eating meat and while I would never hunt, it can often be justified. But in my opinion, no one needs automatic weapons to hunt. I realize in a lot of Canadian crimes the guns supposedly come from elsewhere and most Canadian gun owners are law abiding. I don’t see how a registry is impossible or could cost a billion (!) clams. I don’t expect everyone to share my opinion.
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Old 04-20-2020, 10:32 PM
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Automatic weapons are already essentially banned, Dr Paprika. Only automatic weapons that were legally owned prior to 1978 (? Too tired to check the exact date) can be purchased now, and only by passing several checks. It’s a closed class.
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  #368  
Old 04-20-2020, 10:40 PM
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Well, how do you suggest he react to the biggest shooting in Canadian history?

I know my share of hunters and plenty of military types who I suspect are gun enthusiasts. I love eating meat and while I would never hunt, it can often be justified. But in my opinion, no one needs automatic weapons to hunt. I realize in a lot of Canadian crimes the guns supposedly come from elsewhere and most Canadian gun owners are law abiding. I don’t see how a registry is impossible or could cost a billion (!) clams. I don’t expect everyone to share my opinion.
In the States, there are people who come out of the woodwork en masse after every big shooting to say that we should totally eliminate gun laws, because criminals won't follow them anyway. I like to reply, "Then let's eliminate all laws, why don't we, because criminals won't follow them." Doesn't always go over so well.

Gun laws, as I understand them, are mainly to keep firearms away from people who should not have them.
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Old 04-20-2020, 10:59 PM
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If he does, be prepared for Western alienation to go through the roof, and for separatist sentiment to reach an all-time high in the west.
Pushing the gun law debate to the side; western alienation is strictly Alberta/prairie right-wing grievance which, in turn, makes separatist sentiment a literal joke.

Liberals will liberal. Get over it. The whining always stops whenever there's a Tory House, but since they can't win non-stop dictatorships the whines always come back. "We'll set up our own country without Liberals!"
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Old 04-20-2020, 11:11 PM
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Also I do agree with Sam Stone's analysis that western alienation and separatist sentiment will rise, but I'm not limiting it to just Gun laws. It raises anytime any Liberal gains control of the House.

IMO that's like getting angry at the Sun for (inevitably) raising every morning from the east.
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:27 AM
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If he does, be prepared for Western alienation to go through the roof, and for separatist sentiment to reach an all-time high in the west.
You might want to wait for oil to get above zero dollars/barrel before you separate.
  #372  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:54 AM
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It would be difficult to make gun laws enforceably stricter than they are now; a large percentage of gun crimes are committed with weapons smuggled in from the USA as it is.

Owning automatic weapons, as noted upthread, is, legally speaking, pretty much impossible.
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  #373  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:58 AM
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This isn’t my area of expertise. Trudeau has always mentioned “military style” weapons, a vague descriptor. New Zealand banned many semi-automatics and some guns which carried more than ten rounds and placed restrictions on ammunition sales and licenses. Since New Zealand is a country of farmers, in some ways it has similarities to Canada.

So my questions:
1. What should Canada do?
2. Are any guns which were banned in New Zealand legal here?
3. How would banning what they did in New Zealand affect hunters and gun owners in practice, apart from seeming oppressive and Draconian and an overreach of state authority offensive to law abiding libertarians (with whom I sympathize).
4. Is a gun registry needed, or possible? How could it go through so much money and fail?
5. What measures would make a bigger difference to reducing “hard to prevent” crimes, accepting changing gun laws might not have changed the outcome much?
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  #374  
Old 04-21-2020, 10:29 AM
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Taking a quick skim at the New Zealand gun law page on the wikipedia, I'm actually not seeing much difference between their laws and ours, and ours already are more restrictive in some areas than the NZ laws.

You need a licence to acquire a centre-fire semi auto rifle or shotgun in New Zealand; here, need a licence, period, regardless of type of ammunition.

Restrictions on the allowable magazine size - Canadian restrictions seem tighter here already, as the NZ law categorises rifles with more than 10 cartridge magazines as restricted, requiring a special endorsement on the licence; Canadian law prohibits magazines over that size.

Restrictions on military style assault rifles - both countries have that, to varying degrees.
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  #375  
Old 04-21-2020, 10:52 AM
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1. What should Canada do?
The largest problem with Canadian guns laws is that Canada shares a very long border with a nation without them, which is out of Canada's control. Gun crime is taken very seriously already, and the balance of restrictions vs legal ownership by farmers & hunters is pretty good already, though not perfect. (I'm for much stricter controls.)
  #376  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:05 AM
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What stricter controls would you like to see?
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Old 04-21-2020, 11:05 AM
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This isn’t my area of expertise. Trudeau has always mentioned “military style” weapons, a vague descriptor. New Zealand banned many semi-automatics and some guns which carried more than ten rounds and placed restrictions on ammunition sales and licenses. Since New Zealand is a country of farmers, in some ways it has similarities to Canada.
The magazine limit in Canada is five to ten, depending on the weapon.

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So my questions:
1. What should Canada do?
Banning types of guns isn't the solution to improving the rate of gun violence; most gun violence is committed with already-banned weapons, and the range of legal weapons is quite limited.

What works is intelligent enforcement. I am honestly not sure if the disaster in Nova Scotia was stoppable, but the great majority of gun violence isn't a single lunatic on a spree. You could further reduce gun violence through greater investigative work and better cooperation between agencies; the question is whether that's practical, I guess, but it's an opportunity for improvement.


Quote:
2. Are any guns which were banned in New Zealand legal here?
3. How would banning what they did in New Zealand affect hunters and gun owners in practice, apart from seeming oppressive and Draconian and an overreach of state authority offensive to law abiding libertarians (with whom I sympathize).
The laws are broadly similar.

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4. Is a gun registry needed, or possible? How could it go through so much money and fail?
Honestly, I am not sure if a gun registry would make much of a difference. It would help with investigating a crime, but the number of cases where it would make a difference is very small; it would specifically have to be a crime committed with a legally own and registered firearm that would otherwise not have been solveable. How often does that happen in Canada?

As to why the registry was a fiasco, that's a long story. The basic thrust of it, though, is that the government of the day came up with the idea before anyone had really thought of the practical side of how to do it. There were several problems with it:

1. The initial cost estimate of $2 million was insane. It was flatly dishonest of anyone to even suggest such a preposterous number; the likelihood the government could implement a national firearms registry from such a low sum was exactly zero. A ridiculous budget is essentially the same as no budget at all, so once it blew past that number the project took on the property of ALL projects with an unlimited budget; it became unlimitedly expensive.

2. The technology of the time was not up to the task of doing something that big that quickly. That might sound weird - I mean, the province keep track of God only knows how many drivers' licenses and health cards, and the feds run the income tax program and whatnot. But that stuff is all built year over year. The feds were trying to register 10-20 MILLION firearms from scratch, and to impose order on a thing that was not systemic in any way.

3. Gun owners had no compelling reason to bother registering existing weapons. If you're a law abiding person with an old .22 at the cottage, you just had zero reason to cooperate on an individual level - the law was hopelessly unenforceable - or a social responsibility level, because the simple fact is that very few gun crimes in Canada are committed by people who own the weapon legally.

One of the proposed benefits to the registry was that it would offer the police a degree of safety; for instance, if a couple of cops had to attend to a domestic violence call, they could check the computer to see if weapons were registered at the home. But that is of benefit only if it's more or less universally effective. If you don't catch most guns, then it's useless, or maybe WORSE than useless; if the police officer trusts the computer they might walk into a situation with a gun they did not know was there.

It was apparent very early on that the registry was a fiasco. It survived as long as it did only out of sheer politics.

No one wants to hear this, but the connection between gun ownership and the murder rate, while there is a positive correlation, isn't as strong as one might think. Furthermore, if you want to reduce gun violence, you don't start with rifles and shotguns; you start with HANDGUNS, which are the real plague when it comes to both homicides and suicides. And we've already made handgun ownership almost legally impossible.
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  #378  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:09 AM
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What stricter controls would you like to see?
I don't know enough for an informed opinion. My dislike for guns and love of animals both tilt towards the extremes, so I'm just assuming that there's a way to tighten things further and that I would be happy with that.
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Old 04-21-2020, 12:49 PM
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Perhaps when the details of this horrific crime are clear, it will reveal a loophole that needs closing? Just guessing!
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:11 PM
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This is not my area of expertise. I would like to see fewer tragic incidents.

If guns can’t be better controlled, perhaps there is value in (1) more regulation of ammunition sales or alternate registry of ammunition purchases (2) mandated training or competency testing at some regular interval (3) some sort of note from a family member or guarantor vouching for mental stability at some regular interval.

I’m not a fan of bureaucracy for its own sake. I don’t know if that is too much or if it would make a difference. I like animals and dislike tragedies. A gun registry may be flawed on many levels, but wasn’t it supported by the Canadian Police Chiefs? That implies they must have some benefit?
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:16 PM
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I would also prefer to see Parliament back in session at a stressful time when big decisions must be made and potential problems must be avoided. They can work out some distancing thing. If a grocery store can manage, in my view so can government.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:24 PM
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Sittings of Parliament can take place remotely. There is no need to put all the members in a room together sitting side by side.
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:06 PM
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Yes and no. We want healthy politicians and we need them to make the best decisions at a difficult phase. Regular meetings signifies a desire to normalize things, leadership, conscientiousness and maybe a degree of debate.

I like Trudeau. I think he has done a good job on many difficult files. I think he will likely win the next election. I sense he sees a political advantage in not meeting since the federal opposition is almost invisible and people largely approve of his performance compared to other countries. I think Doug Ford has done a surprisingly good job as well.

But they’ll have to meet eventually. Sooner rather than later. I would agree a lot of what happens in parliament is probably fodder for public consumption rather than real debate. But I am confident this will change within the next sesquicentennial.
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  #384  
Old 04-21-2020, 07:09 PM
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Regular meetings can take place remotely.
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:12 PM
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Sittings of Parliament can take place remotely. There is no need to put all the members in a room together sitting side by side.
The Rules of the Parliament do not currently allow for that. To amend the rules, the two Houses have to be summoned under the existing Rules and pass an amendment to permit remote participation.
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:35 PM
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This is not my area of expertise. I would like to see fewer tragic incidents.
So would we all. But we need to use principles like epidemiology to determine what changes would actually work, coupled with measures that will have popular support. The gun registry became a lightning rod for those who opposed gun control, and in my opinion has made it harder to enact further gun control regulation. Overreach can be as bad as insufficient measures, if the overreach then makes it harder to do anything.

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If guns can’t be better controlled
Our gun control laws are already pretty strict. I doubt that they would survive a 2nd Amendment/Heller challenge in the US system.

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... perhaps there is value in (1) more regulation of ammunition sales
Purchase of ammunition is already regulated. You need to have a PAL ("Purchase and Acquisition Licence") to buy ammunition. That is the same licence you need to buy a gun, and is a pretty stringent test. Here's what you need to get a PAL, as set out in the Firearms Regulations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federal Cabinet
Possession and Acquisition Licences for Firearms
3 (1) Subject to subsection 14(2), an application for a licence to possess and acquire firearms that is made by an individual must be accompanied by
[(a) a photograph of the applicant that is sufficient to identify the applicant accurately and that meets the requirements of subsection 14(1);
(b) a statement signed by a person who has known the applicant for at least one year and is at least 18 years old confirming that the photograph accurately identifies the applicant and that the person has known the applicant for at least one year;
(c) a statement signed by two persons, other than a person referred to in paragraph (d), who have known the applicant for at least three years and are at least 18 years old, with their names printed legibly on it, confirming that they have known the applicant for at least three years and that, to their knowledge,
(i) the information in the application is true, and
(ii) there is no reason why it would be desirable, in the interests of the safety of the applicant or any other person, that the applicant not possess a firearm; and
(d) subject to subsection (2), the name, date of birth, current address and telephone number of every spouse, common-law partner and other person with whom the applicant is in a conjugal relationship at the time of making the application or with whom the applicant has been in a conjugal relationship within the two years before the application is made.
Quote:
... or alternate registry of ammunition purchases
I don't see the value of a registry of purchases, if someone already has to have gone through the hoops to get a PAL. What value add do you think it would have?

Quote:
(2) mandated training or competency testing at some regular interval
That would be the five year renwal for a PAL, which is very similar to the initial process for getting a PAL in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federal Cabinet
8.3 (1) Subject to subsection 14(2), an application for a renewal of a licence must include
(a) a photograph of the applicant that is sufficient to identify the applicant accurately and that meets the requirements of subsection 14(1);
(b) the name, date of birth, address and telephone number of every spouse, common-law partner or other person with whom the applicant is in a conjugal relationship at the time of making the application; and
(c) subject to subsection (2), the name, current address and telephone number of every spouse, common-law partner and other person with whom the applicant has been in a conjugal relationship within the two years before the application is made and who is not referred to in paragraph (b).
The purpose of these provisions isn't to test competnency or training, but whether the person poses any risk. The police can call the spouses/former spouses for background checks.

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(3) some sort of note from a family member or guarantor vouching for mental stability at some regular interval.
I think this would be a really bad idea. If a person has a tendency to domestic violence, would their spouse or family member want to be asked that question? What would a battered spouse say to the police, in writing: "Yes, officer, my spouse is very violent."? There would be great pressure on a spouse or family member in that situation to sign the letter dictated by the applicant for the renewal.

Instead, the applicant has to give the contact info for all spouses and former spouses, and the police do their own investigation.
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  #387  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That would be the five year renwal for a PAL, which is very similar to the initial process for getting a PAL in the first place.
It's also worth noting that safety courses and such would hardly make a dent in gun-related homicides. They presumably reduce gun ACCIDENTS, but they aren't going to reduce gun murders.
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  #388  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:52 PM
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I didn’t realize those things already existed. But if they already have a list of ammunition buyers with a license, they almost have a gun registry already. Shouldn’t cost a billion to ask purchasers to add info about the guns.

I agree the answer for increased safety probably lies elsewhere. Not sure about the epidemiology of it. The rarity of these events is a little bit reassuring. Not sure why we’d need to get by US legal standards. I don’t think Canadians are even allowed well regulated militia. Not a thing here.
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  #389  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:03 PM
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If anyone wants a quick primer on firearm ownership in Canada: Explain like I’m Five Episode 7: guns in Canada.
  #390  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It's also worth noting that safety courses and such would hardly make a dent in gun-related homicides. They presumably reduce gun ACCIDENTS, but they aren't going to reduce gun murders.
Exactly. The focus of the PAL isn't on gun training and gun safety; it's on whether the person is safe to have guns.
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  #391  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
I didn’t realize those things already existed. But if they already have a list of ammunition buyers with a license, they almost have a gun registry already. Shouldn’t cost a billion to ask purchasers to add info about the guns.
But doing it with each purchase of a gun will never build up a comprehensive gun registry. Guns last a long time. The PAL covers both possession and acquisition, as mentioned. The PAL doesn't say anything about how many guns I have. If I purchase ammunition, that doesn't tell you how many guns I have. And if I bought a multi-year supply of ammunition before your proposed new requirement comes into force, my guns and ammo may never be included on that new registry.

That was one of the reasons the registry was such a massive undertaking. It's estimated that there are 7.1 million firearms in private hands in Canada. To create a comprehensive registry, the government had to come up with a way to register all of them on a short time-line. As RickJay commented, while the need for vehicle registration is often used as a comparator, vehicles have been licensed for over a century. The task is just to licence each vehicle as it's bought by an individual. You don't have to start a new registry for every vehicle in Canada, which is what the gun registry required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
I agree the answer for increased safety probably lies elsewhere. Not sure about the epidemiology of it.
Epidemiology is one of the tools that some use to measure gun control effectiveness, just like other public health issues. If you treat gun homicides like a medical event, and then ask if gun control measures have affected gun homicide rates, epidemiology principles and stats analysis may be one way to gauge the effectiveness of those measures, just like epidemiologist are currently measuring how effective social distancing and other government measures are against COVID. That's the theory, at any rate.

Personally, I'm not convinced that there is a close fit, because the social factors about gun ownership and usage have a lot more variation than disease transmission by a virus. However, it is an attempt to bring some scientific rigour to measuring the effectiveness of gun control measures, rather than just rely on gut instincts. To my mind, the more empirical information the government has to guide its policy choices, the better, even if that empirical information comes with qualifications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
The rarity of these events is a little bit reassuring. Not sure why we’d need to get by US legal standards. I don’t think Canadians are even allowed well regulated militia. Not a thing here.
The reason I mentioned the US situation is to highlight that our gun control laws are much different, and much stricter, than the US situation. I've noticed a tendency in personal conversations about gun control with other Canadians that they have so absorbed the US situation into their mindsets that they assume the situation is similar here. It isn't, and in my opinion, any discussion on whether we need more measures in Canada should start with a summary of what we already have, and ask, as I asked Dr Drake upthread: what specific new measures do you want, to make our gun laws stricter than what they already are?
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  #392  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:48 AM
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Just to provide further background on what the conditions for a PAL, qwhich applies to both firearms and ammunition, heres' the staatutory provisions from the Friearms Act (the passage I quoted earlier is from the Firearms Regulations; the two need to be read together):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parliament of Canada
Public safety

5 (1) A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, ammunition or prohibited ammunition.

Criteria

(2) In determining whether a person is eligible to hold a licence under subsection (1), a chief firearms officer or, on a reference under section 74, a provincial court judge shall have regard to whether the person, within the previous five years,
(a) has been convicted or discharged under section 730 of the Criminal Code of
(i) an offence in the commission of which violence against another person was used, threatened or attempted,
(ii) an offence under this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code [Firearms offences],
(iii) an offence under section 264 of the Criminal Code (criminal harassment),
(iv) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(1) or (2), 6(1) or (2) or 7(1) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, or
(v) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 9(1) or (2), 10(1) or (2), 11(1) or (2), 12(1), (4), (5), (6) or (7), 13(1) or 14(1) of the Cannabis Act;
(b) has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or
(c) has a history of behaviour that includes violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person.
There is also a requirement for completion of a gun safety course (see s. 7), but as mentioned above, the real focus of the PAL system is assessing whether it would be unsafe for an applicant to have access to firearms or ammunition.
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  #393  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:12 PM
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I obviously hit Reply instead of Preview in the previous post.
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  #394  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:36 PM
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Thank you for reviewing some of the factors which make gun safety in Canada more tightly controlled than some other countries. Much I didn’t know. I agree the perceptions are we are not doing enough, and other countries could also be taking further steps.

Car information has been collected for many years. No system is perfect and there are laws that make defacing car identification information illegal to dissuade criminal use. One of the obvious obstacles to a gun registry is law abiding people don’t want to do it, nor pay fees, nor deal with the bureaucracy. It also may not help, but some professionals think it does.

On the face of it, these obstacles exist with many other things. If, when you buy ammunition, you are under legal obligation to list all the guns you own (since you likely own at least one gun if buying ammo), this would allow for a registry to be cheaply compiled. It would not be perfect. But it wouldn’t be anyway. Criminals likely would not declare guns and some would object to the law and disobey it. Again, a gun registry may be of little use to enforcement - I don’t know. But it still seems to me one way to do it. Wouldn’t cost a billion. The real obstacle is that no politician wants to alienate rural districts (that may already lean conservative) for a small or piddling benefit. In that sense, the situation in Canada and the US may both shaped by a degree of political fear.

Is there a practical benefit to a gun registry?
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  #395  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:50 PM
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The last gun registry we had cost 2 billion dollars, millions of Canadians refused to comply, and in the end the police admitted it didn't help them solve a single case.

You can't stop crazy people. This guy posed as a Mountie, had a fake police car, and went on his rampage for 12 hours, tricking people into letting him get close to them. A person like that could have killed as many people with a bleemin' sword.

We have had mass murders carried out recently with vehicles. Europe is experiencing a wave of knifings since they banned guns, and home invasions, assaults and rape have gone way up.

And as others said, the vast majority of gun crimes in Canada are carried out with guns illegally smuggled into the country.

So you want to restrict the rights of millions of law-abiding people for what would essentially be a feel-good measure that would have zero effect on crime statistics. In the process, you would increase western alienation and further radicalize the very people you think are dangerous.

This is simply irrational. So we'll probably do it. The irrationality of 'assault rifle' bans never stopped the gun grabbers before. I guess it's better to feel good than to do good.
  #396  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:26 PM
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You can’t stop crazy people. But it is often possible to help them. You can give people a sense of dignity and community. And eschew attitudes that mock or blame or isolate. That radicalize. This guy had previous anger issues, had been cautioned with respect to ownership before. Was indeed known. It is quite rare to suddenly snap - it’s a gradual thing. You can’t prevent everything. But there are lessons to be learned here. Somewhere.

If gun control leads to fewer shootings and more stabbings, the number of victims will be a lot less. European problems, if true, might be related to many other factors apart from gun control - including autocratic government, migration, intolerance, xenophobia and opportunity.

If Canada has already struck a good balance between safety and responsible rights, and they probably have... but two questions...

1. Why did the Police Chief Association claim (if I recall correctly) the registry was helpful?
2. What is the “highest powered” gun legally available which might be used for hunting - and is it excessive or not?

(In fairness, my bias is for more restrictions and less hunting, although I have learned from this thread the balance is more reasonable than I thought.)
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Last edited by Dr_Paprika; 04-22-2020 at 09:29 PM.
  #397  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:40 PM
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A lot of articles claim that to achieve more control, there need to be more restrictions on handguns. This is said to be more controversial than “military” or “assault” weapons.

3. What percentage of violent incidents, including gangs, involve handguns?
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  #398  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
A lot of articles claim that to achieve more control, there need to be more restrictions on handguns. This is said to be more controversial than “military” or “assault” weapons.

3. What percentage of violent incidents, including gangs, involve handguns?
just curious - where in the country are these articles being published?
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  #399  
Old 04-23-2020, 07:26 AM
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Part of me would rather see registry money spent stopping weapons coming in. That means automated, large scale xraying type systems at every entry point, every car, every bag, etc. It could be used for many other good purposes too, stopping heaps of contraband and illegal activity. Yeah, sure, expensive, but if they finance a second gun registry? The cost of the two, would surely make a good start.
  #400  
Old 04-23-2020, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
just curious - where in the country are these articles being published?
These are recent articles in the Globe and the Star. I might have read 2 or 3 articles essentially saying this. They are often opinion pieces by various groups advocating gun control or people related to victims of gun crime who have become advocates. The articles stated their opinions but not the underlying evidence, if any, or what the actual laws are. For that reason, since articles often omit important background, I appreciate your contribution in saying what the laws are and what procedures are in place. It has changed my mind to some degree. Thank you.
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