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Old 02-28-2020, 11:39 AM
Marcus Flavius is offline
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Who would be the most "disruptive" to the politics system?


Trump has been the most "disruptive" president we've ever had. His presidency so far has been essentially endless scandal and he's been able to paralyze the government with his distruption. Out of the democratic candidates, it seems that Sanders is the most likely to get the nomination, followed by Bloomberg and then Biden. I think Sanders could be almost as disruptive or possibly just a disruptive a Trump. I'm not completely sure though. Bloomberg is just another milquetoast corporate Democrat, so i don't see him bringing any major disruption. I feel the same about Biden, though I think he's more likely to be involved in some sort of scandal.

*** I meant to write political system, not politics system

Last edited by Marcus Flavius; 02-28-2020 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:30 PM
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Sanders would probably be more disruptive, if he gets elected and gets his agenda enacted. Those are two rather large if's.

Even if he is elected and gets nowhere, the process by which a Republican- or moderate-controlled Congress rejects his proposals, and/or modifies them beyond recognition, might also be disruptive. Or possibly Bernie goes rogue and tries to govern by executive order, which will involve a lot of overriding and legal action.

If we elect Bernie and a bunch of democratic socialists, such that his agenda has some chance of passing. you ain't seen nothing yet. M4A plus free tuition plus taxes on stocks plus increased taxes on capital gains plus wealth taxes plus eliminating private insurance - whoo boy.

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Old 02-28-2020, 01:43 PM
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How can people compare Sanders to Trump?

Sanders agenda is pretty mainstream according to public polling, and he is in line with older school democrats like FDR.

Trump is a neofascist white nationalist.

I have no idea how anyone could compare them with a straight face.

"Wanting medicare for all and free public college is the same as being accused of raping children and supporting dictatorship" No wonder America is so fucked up.

Bloomberg would be more disruptive then sanders because if he buys the nomination, that cements how entrenched the plutocracy is in American politics, and it'll lead to massive grassroots mobilization and uprising.
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Old 02-28-2020, 02:15 PM
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How can people compare Sanders to Trump?
...
I have no idea how anyone could compare them with a straight face.
Disingenuousness.
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Old 02-28-2020, 06:20 PM
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If we elect Bernie and a bunch of democratic socialists, such that his agenda has some chance of passing. you ain't seen nothing yet. M4A plus free tuition plus taxes on stocks plus increased taxes on capital gains plus wealth taxes plus eliminating private insurance - whoo boy.




Yeah it’d be a real hellscape, all those poors getting opportunities to succeed.
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Old 02-28-2020, 06:35 PM
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I think Sanders could be almost as disruptive or possibly just a disruptive a Trump.
Leaders who talk like a dictator become worse the longer they are in office. Putin didn't destroy Russia's free press in his first term either.

Even if, worse case, and I don't think this is true, Sanders is still a Leninist at heart, four years won't be enough to do the damage Trump can inflict in eight (assuming his third term jokes are just jokes).
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Old 02-28-2020, 07:33 PM
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How can people compare Sanders to Trump?

Sanders agenda is pretty mainstream according to public polling, and he is in line with older school democrats like FDR.

Trump is a neofascist white nationalist.

I have no idea how anyone could compare them with a straight face.
Right -- but the real difference is that Trump is acting purely out of self-interest: self-aggrandizement, monetary self-interest, ego. His "disruptions" are mostly just distractions because he becomes an attention whore throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants. These disruptions are mostly superficial.

Otherwise, he's not really disrupting the system that much--he's just exploiting its worse qualities to enrich his sycophants. The most disruptive thing he's really doing is putting unqualified, partisan cronies into judge positions.

His neglect of basic government operations is temporarily disruptive, but most of the damage can probably be reversed when a responsible president gets into office. The longer it continues, though, the more likely more permanent damage can occur.
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Old 02-28-2020, 09:21 PM
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Trump is an egomaniac who simply wants to be worshipped, he has no political philosophy.

Bernie Sanders has a messianic complex and actually believes the shit he says. But he’s basically like a 6 year old making out a Christmas list for Santa: no idea how much anything costs or how realistic anything is.

Bernie is worse than Trump. Republicans quickly learned just to kiss Trump’s ass and then they can get what they want.

Bernie despises the party he’s trying to hijack. There’s a very good reason almost no one in the Congress he’s served in for 30 years supports him.
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:52 AM
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Right -- but the real difference is that Trump is acting purely out of self-interest: self-aggrandizement, monetary self-interest, ego. His "disruptions" are mostly just distractions because he becomes an attention whore throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants. These disruptions are mostly superficial.

Otherwise, he's not really disrupting the system that much--he's just exploiting its worse qualities to enrich his sycophants. The most disruptive thing he's really doing is putting unqualified, partisan cronies into judge positions.

His neglect of basic government operations is temporarily disruptive, but most of the damage can probably be reversed when a responsible president gets into office. The longer it continues, though, the more likely more permanent damage can occur.
I think Trump is motivated solely by self interest. His interest in dictatorship isn't philosophical, it is to protect his fragile ego from criticism.

However he does represent the true base of the GOP, who are white nationalists who view democracy as something that gets in the way of creating an oligarchical ethnostate. He is paving a way to create the kind of world they want to live in. THe fact that he is doing it for self interest doesn't change what impact he is having.

Sanders more wants to expand the social welfare state, create more progressive taxes and build a grassroots movement. In a way that is disruptive to the current system, but not in a bad way.

I also disagree about it being temporary disruption. Trump probably paved the way for China to become the next superpower, and it'll be a generation before our allies trust us again.
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Old 02-29-2020, 05:48 AM
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Sanders = Positive disruption

Trump = Negative disruption
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Old 02-29-2020, 06:47 AM
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Sanders = Positive disruption

Trump = Negative disruption
Sanders disruption would be quicker. One big reason: The Supreme Court would allow lower court bypassing to slapping down executive orders.

I can see some disruption if Sanders grants clemency to a large number of federal prisoners without going through the Justice Department Pardon Office, as he essentially has said he will. But beyond that, the courts and the Senate will block all his domestic moves.

What about foreign policy disruption? Despite radically different rhetoric, Trump and Sanders both want to bring U.S. troops home, and both do or will find themselves surrounded by people telling them no.

One big factor: Sanders would start his first term almost nine years older than Trump started his first term. Overthrowing the old regime is more of a job for middle-age.

There may be vehicular traffic disruption when his supporters protest because Bernie can't do much.

Last edited by PhillyGuy; 02-29-2020 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:48 AM
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Unless, improbably, the Dems take the senate, Sanders (or any other Democrat) will not even be able to assemble a cabinet, appoint any judges, ro do anything else. If they do get at least 50 senators, then the filibuster is toast and they will be able to get a few things done, like appoint a cabinet and some judges, but there are enough blue dog Democrats to block anything really new. Although I expect they could reverse the 2018 tax bill and maybe even raise the maximum marginal rate and the limit on SS tax.

But could he repair all the damage to the American standing in the world? Hard to see how to regain all the trust that Trump has squandered. Maybe revive the Iran treaty. On the other hand, Sanders is opposed to free trade, so might even abrogate NAFTA II, whatever it is called.
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