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Old 03-24-2020, 11:16 PM
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Big rich companies doing wrong by their employees, customers or other stakeholders during COVID-19


I'll leave it up to "Big rich" as obviously its hard to blame small or struggling businesses but here's three examples:

1. Philadelphia 76ers and New Jersey Devils, both simultaneously owned by 3 billionaires and the Sixers team worth $2 billion on the open market, announced Monday night they were cutting the salaries of any non-contracted employee of either team making $50,000 or more by 20%. Their weasel internal memo said no one was losing their jobs, they would still have benefits etc etc. The memo quickly leaked into the media, and after about 18 hours of outrage, the team owners rescinded and apologized. Yeah, at the end of the day the right thing was done, and OK if the league has to cancel the 2020-21 season, OK, but considering everything going on this was poor optics.

2. Whenever WrestleMania is held in a city, several smaller promotions and conventions set up shop in that city to take advantage of the 50-70,000 wrestling fans that visit that weekend. WrestleCon booked a convention at the Tampa Marriott, and asked to cancel when WWE moved their event to a small arena in Orlando with no fans. Marriott said NO and sent the promoter a letter saying they would be on the hook for $114,000 for an event that in two weeks will be all but shut down by government order anyway.

3. I signed a contract to have a gentleman teach a class at one of our facilities. Due to the COVID-19 crisis, we cancelled the class. Delta Airlines will not refund his $600+ airline ticket despite the entire world be closed down.

Who else? Name names!!!! Please remember these bad corporate actors the next time they ask for your business.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:24 PM
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Update: Marriott decided to cancel the event at no charge, but just like the Sixers/Devils only did so after a massive Twitter campaign by wrestling fans and several big name wrestlers.

In other words, these fat cat corporations would have gone through with it if no one was alerted.
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Old 03-25-2020, 06:43 PM
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And of course there’s this a-hole:


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9423491.html


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Old 03-25-2020, 07:05 PM
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And of course there’s this a-hole:


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9423491.html


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I stopped shopping at Hobby Lobby after the birth control lawsuit. TBH though even before that I wasn't too crazy about their attitudes -- I get that not having their stores open on Sunday (which used to be a good day for me to shop) is their prerogative, but FFS couldn't they hire a few Jews or Seventh Day Adventists or atheists to work that day?
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:42 AM
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Amazon has requested donations to pay for sick leave of employees.

After all, Jeff Bezos is too hard pressed to pay for this himself.
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:58 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.

Smaller airlines like RyanAir are surprisingly just giving out refunds.
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:28 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.

Smaller airlines like RyanAir are surprisingly just giving out refunds.
That's an extremely selfish stand to have. The industry on the verge of collapse, liquidity is terrible to the point where paying wages is almost impossible... and you expect them to be able to refund thousands of tickets.

Some solidarity is required these days, also with companies (and its employees) that have income fall to zero by no fault of their own.

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Old 03-27-2020, 01:30 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.

Smaller airlines like RyanAir are surprisingly just giving out refunds.
I travel around the USA teaching certification classes. I currently have over $6000 in airline credit because of canceled classes and a European vacation my wife and I had to cancel. The credits are on five different airlines. While it's true that I have the credits available (for the next year, I believe), this doesn't help pay my CC bill at the end of the month. They want their money and I'm not getting the income from the classes to offset it.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:22 PM
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:39 PM
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On a positive note Mark Cuban is paying the arena workers in Dallas their hourly wages for games missed.

The article is from the 12th, last interview I heard indicated that the payments will continue
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:58 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.

Smaller airlines like RyanAir are surprisingly just giving out refunds.
Pretty simplistic take on the whole situation with the airlines. Each airline has it's own contract of carriage that dictates how it treats cancellations, refunds, vouchers, etc. Many, many people buy the cheapest ticket which almost always means it's non-refundable and non-changeable. Once the shit hit the fan, many airlines, at least the large US airlines, immediately started allowing people to cancel and rebook or get vouchers for even the most restricted tickets, as well as waiving change fees. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If you're not happy getting a voucher or the ability to change your previously non-refundable, non-changeable ticket, then I think the airline should be able to charge a cancellation fee. Not sure why you think the airlines should be on the hook for millions of these tickets.

Now as more travel bans/restrictions have gone into effect, the airlines are having to cancel flights and reducing/changing schedules. In many cases if THE AIRLINE cancels your flight or makes a change of more than X hours (depends on airline) you ARE due a refund. Each will have its own process for this. I just had to do this with AA and even though the airline cancelled my flight I still had to "cancel" it on my end and then request the refund via their website. There was a period of over a week where my flight hadn't yet been cancelled by AA and if I'd initiated the cancellation on my end first, I'm sure it would have defaulted to getting issued a voucher rather than refund, so it pays to wait as long as possible to cancel.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:43 PM
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  #13  
Old 03-27-2020, 04:29 PM
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Pretty simplistic take on the whole situation with the airlines. Each airline has it's own contract of carriage that dictates how it treats cancellations, refunds, vouchers, etc. Many, many people buy the cheapest ticket which almost always means it's non-refundable and non-changeable. Once the shit hit the fan, many airlines, at least the large US airlines, immediately started allowing people to cancel and rebook or get vouchers for even the most restricted tickets, as well as waiving change fees. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If you're not happy getting a voucher or the ability to change your previously non-refundable, non-changeable ticket, then I think the airline should be able to charge a cancellation fee. Not sure why you think the airlines should be on the hook for millions of these tickets.

Now as more travel bans/restrictions have gone into effect, the airlines are having to cancel flights and reducing/changing schedules. In many cases if THE AIRLINE cancels your flight or makes a change of more than X hours (depends on airline) you ARE due a refund. Each will have its own process for this. I just had to do this with AA and even though the airline cancelled my flight I still had to "cancel" it on my end and then request the refund via their website. There was a period of over a week where my flight hadn't yet been cancelled by AA and if I'd initiated the cancellation on my end first, I'm sure it would have defaulted to getting issued a voucher rather than refund, so it pays to wait as long as possible to cancel.
This is helpful to understand the situation. However, what happens to all those vouchers and credits if your airline goes bankrupt or belly-up? While I agree the airlines are being as flexible as they can, for most of their customers, they look at it as a purchase of goods and services not received, and are due a refund.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:33 PM
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This is helpful to understand the situation. However, what happens to all those vouchers and credits if your airline goes bankrupt or belly-up? While I agree the airlines are being as flexible as they can, for most of their customers, they look at it as a purchase of goods and services not received, and are due a refund.
They get in line with the other creditors.

People who paid for a flight they can't take aren't privileged over employees who are due their last paycheck, or contractors who are due payment for services supplied, or holders of bonds who gave their money to buy planes, etc.

Bankruptcy sucks and everyone takes a hit.
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:33 PM
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This is helpful to understand the situation. However, what happens to all those vouchers and credits if your airline goes bankrupt or belly-up? While I agree the airlines are being as flexible as they can, for most of their customers, they look at it as a purchase of goods and services not received, and are due a refund.
Well, in the case of the airlines that could happen in the best of times! But really, even though the stakes are lower, the same question could be asked about hundreds of local businesses that are in danger of going under due to lack of business and forced closures. At least the airlines are throwing a bone to those that bought a non-refundable/changeable product.
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:53 PM
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I stopped shopping at Hobby Lobby after the birth control lawsuit. TBH though even before that I wasn't too crazy about their attitudes -- I get that not having their stores open on Sunday (which used to be a good day for me to shop) is their prerogative, but FFS couldn't they hire a few Jews or Seventh Day Adventists or atheists to work that day?
They can also simply be closed on Sundays. They don't need to do it with a sign on the door that says "We are closed so our employees can attend church."
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:57 PM
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Normally I'd pull for a company, even a large company, who is negatively affected by our current circumstances. Unfortunately, the airline industry as a whole hasn't made made much of an effort to endear themselves to the public. I don't know if I would have ever described flying as a fantastic experience, but in recent years it's become downright miserable. The seats are smaller, there's less legroom, they're charging me for carry on luggage, and on occasion they'll kick you off the plane after you've been seated because the airline overbooked the flight. And they might knock your teeth out if you refuse to relinquish your seat.

So, sure, intellectually I can understand why the airlines can't just give everyone refunds right now. But on the other hand, over the last twenty years or so they've been treating their customers like crap. So it's hard to be sympathetic now that they need something.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:50 PM
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Normally I'd pull for a company, even a large company, who is negatively affected by our current circumstances. Unfortunately, the airline industry as a whole hasn't made made much of an effort to endear themselves to the public. I don't know if I would have ever described flying as a fantastic experience, but in recent years it's become downright miserable. The seats are smaller, there's less legroom, they're charging me for carry on luggage, and on occasion they'll kick you off the plane after you've been seated because the airline overbooked the flight. And they might knock your teeth out if you refuse to relinquish your seat.

So, sure, intellectually I can understand why the airlines can't just give everyone refunds right now. But on the other hand, over the last twenty years or so they've been treating their customers like crap. So it's hard to be sympathetic now that they need something.

Also for everyone crying poverty on behalf the airlines, well the why could t Delta just take my colleagues $600 refund out of their CEOs compensation? He only makes $15 million a year.


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Old 03-30-2020, 09:35 PM
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They can also simply be closed on Sundays. They don't need to do it with a sign on the door that says "We are closed so our employees can attend church."
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men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have
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trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the
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of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But when thou doest alms, let not thy
left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
That thine alms may be in secret: and
thy Father which seeth in secret
himself shall reward thee openly.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
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Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:02 PM
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Add Royal Caribbean to the list. They canceled a cruise then refused to refund a nurses convention. Nurses— you know the medical professionals risking their lives right now?


https://www.tmz.com/2020/04/01/royal...efunds-credit/

Yeah, the offered a credit, like that does any good right now. Eventually they relented: only after all getting caught. In other words they would have stiffed them if they could get away with it.


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Old 04-04-2020, 12:13 AM
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Add Royal Caribbean to the list. They canceled a cruise then refused to refund a nurses convention. Nurses— you know the medical professionals risking their lives right now?

Not only are they risking their lives for us all, they're doing it during the International Year of the Nurse and Midwife.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:16 AM
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American Airlines is packing economy folk together in a few rows. After a recent story about a flight with 11 people all forced to sit together in 3 rows, they "amended" their policy but not enough to prevent repeats.

Sure, business class and regular coach is completely empty, but unless you pay for the upgrade, enjoy sitting next to the cougher.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:30 AM
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I’m confused. Is it because it is a convention that refund is off the table? The industry standard is for a full refund of cancelled cruises. I had a cruise cancelled and will get a full refund. I had the option to take a beefed up credit instead, but that was my choice. The linked article isn’t clear. It looks to me that the convention organizers opted for the beefed up credit and forced that on the conventioneers; not Royal Caribbean.

I’m not sure how cruise conventions work, but I think some of them book the whole ship then act as middlemen. Are you sure it is Royal caribbean that is the bad guy here? The policy for Pandemic cancelled cruises is pretty straightforward and well known.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:38 AM
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American Airlines is packing economy folk together in a few rows. After a recent story about a flight with 11 people all forced to sit together in 3 rows, they "amended" their policy but not enough to prevent repeats.

Sure, business class and regular coach is completely empty, but unless you pay for the upgrade, enjoy sitting next to the cougher.
Did you read the article you linked? It pretty much refutes the inflammatory headline.
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Old 04-04-2020, 11:39 AM
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And Hobby Lobby is in the news again. Closing all stores and conducting mass furloughing. Very Christian of them, no?

And I thought I hated their policies before now.
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Old 04-04-2020, 01:30 PM
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The big-chain hotel where one of my state professional conferences was scheduled refused to cancel or move the date for an early spring conference without penalty even after the governor issued a shelter-in-place order. It required a ridiculous number of hours of many board members', lawyers', and lobbyists' time to reach a rescheduling agreement for two years from now, in which the organization might still lose a deposit it can ill afford.
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Old 04-04-2020, 01:40 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.
This is untrue. I just cancelled round trip tickets on American Airlines for my wife, my daughter, and myself with absolutely no pushback and the refund has already hit my credit card.

re: OP
I've seen a couple of stories where companies intended to deduct the government stimulus check amount from employees wages. One of them rescinded the plan due to public outrage but I don't know about the rest.
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Old 04-04-2020, 01:46 PM
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Quoth russian heel:

Also for everyone crying poverty on behalf the airlines, well the why could t Delta just take my colleagues $600 refund out of their CEOs compensation? He only makes $15 million a year.
Is arithmetic really that difficult? They can't do that because he only makes $15 million per year. That's enough to cover 25,000 tickets at that price. Which is about a hundred planes' worth. The airline is looking at more than that in one week, in some airports. Not to mention all the other airports.
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Old 04-04-2020, 01:57 PM
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Possibly an inflammatory question...


...but, are billionaires billionaires because they have a billion dollars immediately to hand, or are they billionaires because they have assets that are valued at a billion dollars?

Bonus question (also possibly inflammatory): What happens to the valuation of a 158 trillion dollars worth of assets* when all 46.8 million owners** of it try to turn it into spendable/donate-able cash at the same time?

*(Approximate combined value of the global wealth held by approximately 0.6 percent to the global population)

** (Approximate number of global inhabitants comprising the aforementioned top 0.6 percent)

Look, I'm as socialism-friendly as the next guy (MORE, if the next guy is D'Anconia), but I can't pretend that these questions aren't troubling until they've been given some consideration.
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Old 04-04-2020, 02:02 PM
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They can also simply be closed on Sundays. They don't need to do it with a sign on the door that says "We are closed so our employees can attend church."
But then how could they show off that they are morally superior to you?

This is the whole point of their flavor of Christianity - to brag that they are better than others.
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Old 04-04-2020, 02:06 PM
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re: OP
I've seen a couple of stories where companies intended to deduct the government stimulus check amount from employees wages. One of them rescinded the plan due to public outrage but I don't know about the rest.
It's never clear from the article, but are these companies who are paying workers 100% of their pay, but staying closed anyway? So people are doing no work, but being compensated as though they are?

If that is the case, then I can sympathize with the companies taking the stimulus check. It is meant to help people with no income, and these people have their full income.

It really isn't much like companies that pay people their full income when they are on jury duty, but then expect them to hand over their juror's pay.
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Old 04-04-2020, 02:09 PM
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Jason Kenny, premier of Alberta, decides that now would be a terrific time to lay off thousands of educational assistants and support staff. Because, hey, we can't be throwing money at those lazy, overpaid educational assistants, right?

Oh, and also, now that bitumen is selling for $4 per barrel, now is clearly is a terrific time to throw 7.5 billion dollars of taxpayer money at a pipeline to get the stuff to market. Gotta keep the corporate welfare going strong.
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Old 04-04-2020, 02:12 PM
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And Hobby Lobby is in the news again. Closing all stores and conducting mass furloughing. Very Christian of them, no?

And I thought I hated their policies before now.
Except in some states with stay-at-home orders in place. Asshats.
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Old 04-04-2020, 03:52 PM
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Is arithmetic really that difficult? They can't do that because he only makes $15 million per year. That's enough to cover 25,000 tickets at that price. Which is about a hundred planes' worth. The airline is looking at more than that in one week, in some airports. Not to mention all the other airports.
Fuck off with the snark. You're the fucking asshole who tried to say it was okay for people to go on spring break during the crisis, and didn't even know the CDC guidelines.

You clearly are not someone who wants to remain up to date, so shut the fuck up with the condescending attitude. You are not a poster we need to hear from, lest it be an apology for your previous dangerous stupidity.
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Old 04-04-2020, 04:29 PM
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Old 04-04-2020, 06:35 PM
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It's never clear from the article, but are these companies who are paying workers 100% of their pay, but staying closed anyway? So people are doing no work, but being compensated as though they are?

If that is the case, then I can sympathize with the companies taking the stimulus check. It is meant to help people with no income, and these people have their full income.

It really isn't much like companies that pay people their full income when they are on jury duty, but then expect them to hand over their juror's pay.

That’s not their call. It’s the governments. The idea behind the stimulus check is the recipients, working or not, will spend the money and keep the economy moving. When the company takes away the equivalent of that pay, it removes the incentive to spend it.


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Old 04-04-2020, 06:37 PM
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Is arithmetic really that difficult? They can't do that because he only makes $15 million per year. That's enough to cover 25,000 tickets at that price. Which is about a hundred planes' worth. The airline is looking at more than that in one week, in some airports. Not to mention all the other airports.

Regardless of the math, if Delta can’t afford to offer the refund then they can’t afford to pay their fat cat executives million dollar salaries.


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Old 04-04-2020, 06:56 PM
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All the major airlines are screwing with their customers and telling them they have to pay a cancellation fee if they don't want "store credit" for cancelled flights.

Smaller airlines like RyanAir are surprisingly just giving out refunds.
American Airlines didn’t do this to us. We could change without penalty.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:31 PM
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Old 04-05-2020, 02:27 PM
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That's an extremely selfish stand to have. The industry on the verge of collapse, liquidity is terrible to the point where paying wages is almost impossible... and you expect them to be able to refund thousands of tickets.

Some solidarity is required these days, also with companies (and its employees) that have income fall to zero by no fault of their own.

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Yes. I expect them to be honest and to honor their cancellation policies. There is nothing selfish about that.

For example,

United is displaying it's flights to countries that have travel bans as on schedule and then cancelling them the night before travel in the hopes that people will travel and pay cancellation fees.

American Airlines is pulling the same bullshit act of not cancelling their flights hoping that passengers cancel and pay the cancellation fee. but at least they are honoring the policy that was in place when you first bought the ticket.

When I purchased my ticket, the policy was that I get a refund in the event of a cancelled flight. They changed the policy AFTER I bought my ticket and now I get a United Airlines credit.

United Airlines has had billions of dollars in stock buybacks in the recent past.

The Airline industry is getting a ton of money in the $2 Trillion stimulus bill.

So explain to me why I am "extremely" selfish for not wanting to subsidize United Airline's business risk?

United Airlines has filed bankruptcy half a dozen times in my lifetime, those credits might be worthless by the time I can fly again. Why should that money go to their employees/creditors/shareholders/executives rather than their passengers? Are their employees/creditors/shareholders/executives more entitled to that money than their passengers?
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:36 PM
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SmellMyWort View Post
Pretty simplistic take on the whole situation with the airlines. Each airline has it's own contract of carriage that dictates how it treats cancellations, refunds, vouchers, etc. Many, many people buy the cheapest ticket which almost always means it's non-refundable and non-changeable. Once the shit hit the fan, many airlines, at least the large US airlines, immediately started allowing people to cancel and rebook or get vouchers for even the most restricted tickets, as well as waiving change fees. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If you're not happy getting a voucher or the ability to change your previously non-refundable, non-changeable ticket, then I think the airline should be able to charge a cancellation fee. Not sure why you think the airlines should be on the hook for millions of these tickets.
So if the policy when you buy the ticket is that you get a refund upon cancellation of a flight, you really think that its fair that they change their policy later on retroactively?

Quote:
Now as more travel bans/restrictions have gone into effect, the airlines are having to cancel flights and reducing/changing schedules. In many cases if THE AIRLINE cancels your flight or makes a change of more than X hours (depends on airline) you ARE due a refund. Each will have its own process for this. I just had to do this with AA and even though the airline cancelled my flight I still had to "cancel" it on my end and then request the refund via their website. There was a period of over a week where my flight hadn't yet been cancelled by AA and if I'd initiated the cancellation on my end first, I'm sure it would have defaulted to getting issued a voucher rather than refund, so it pays to wait as long as possible to cancel.
Apparently American Airlines is not screwing their passengers.

United is.
  #43  
Old 04-05-2020, 03:54 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
American Airlines didn’t do this to us. We could change without penalty.
United is letting me change without penalty as well but for when? When will travel be OK again?
  #44  
Old 04-06-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
So if the policy when you buy the ticket is that you get a refund upon cancellation of a flight, you really think that its fair that they change their policy later on retroactively?


Apparently American Airlines is not screwing their passengers.

United is.
Without knowing all the details, if you were really supposed to get a refund, then it sounds like the best course of action is to keep pushing back on United.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...is/2898509001/
  #45  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:26 PM
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Korean Air is not penalizing passengers either.
  #46  
Old 04-07-2020, 09:50 AM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21L2NK

Airlines are supposed to issue refunds.
Apparently the United policy wasn't a United policy it was a Department of Transportation regulation.
Still have not received refunds on any of my tickets with United.
  #47  
Old 04-09-2020, 03:39 PM
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Concert fans are getting the finger from SURPRISE SURPRISE: ticket brokers.

Ticketmaster and StubHub: DO THE RIGHT THING. People need their money right now:

https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-wo...5pu-story.html


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  #48  
Old 04-10-2020, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russian heel View Post
Concert fans are getting the finger from SURPRISE SURPRISE: ticket brokers.

Ticketmaster and StubHub: DO THE RIGHT THING. People need their money right now:

https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-wo...5pu-story.html
Does not shock me at all. Many years ago I worked at TicketBastard. Had a phone call with a woman clearing up her dad's estate after he passed. She had discovered he had spent a significant chunk of money to treat his family to an expensive concert, asked for a refund. Manager got on the call, asked to speak with the purchaser. He's dead. Go without him (like going with him was an option). No, the musician was his thing, not ours, we're asking for a refund to help paying the expenses. After at least 20 minutes of going back and forth, a refund was denied. It was a sold out show, the tickets would've been gone in a heartbeat. But, no.
Then I got dinged because the call took too long.
  #49  
Old 04-10-2020, 11:47 AM
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I get the anger at TicketMaster, as they are the primary reseller. But StubHub is just an intermediary. If you buy tickets from someone other than the event organizer, you should know that you won't get the benefit of the organizer's policy.
__________________
This can only end in tears.
  #50  
Old 04-10-2020, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FairyChatMom View Post
And Hobby Lobby is in the news again. Closing all stores and conducting mass furloughing. Very Christian of them, no?

And I thought I hated their policies before now.
Nothing says "Christian billionaire" like sticking it to the poor of the world.
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