#1  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:59 AM
Ed Zotti Ed Zotti is offline
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Revised rule about quotes

We're revising the rule about quoting other users. The revision aligns the written rule with current mod practice and is not a major departure.

Here's the revised rule:

Falsely attributing a quote to another SDMB user, or modifying another's post in order to cast him/her in a bad light, is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. We allow parody quotes under certain conditions. Here are the permissible options:

a. Quote attributed to real SDMB user. Quote must be accurate, whether displayed using [QUOTE] tags or ordinary quotation marks. Normal editorial rules apply: that is, you may indicate omitted portions of a quote by the use of ellipses "..." or devices such as [snip]. You may add text to clarify a word using square brackets (e.g., "her [the sister's] friend"), but you may not add editorial comments or edit a quote so as to change the substantive meaning; nor may you substitute text such as "some blather" or "more nonsense" inside the [QUOTE] tags or quotation marks. This applies to all forums including the Pit.

b. Unattributed quote (no name). Unattributed parody quotes are permitted in all forums provided they don't violate other SDMB rules.

c. Parody attribution. In the Pit only, quotes (including parody quotes) may be attributed to a parody username, provided that (a) the parody username is obviously satirical - we'll be the judge of obviousness; and (b) no other rules are violated. Quotes attributed to parody usernames are not permitted in other forums.

Note:

- The mods don't routinely check quotes for accuracy. If you see a violation of the above rules, please report it.

- The above rules apply to quotes of SDMB users only. We encourage accurate quoting of off-board individuals in a serious discussion; links are recommended. If it becomes apparent you're derailing a discussion with fake or misleading quotes of off-board individuals, we reserve the right to take action.

Last edited by Ed Zotti; 03-09-2018 at 12:24 PM.
  #2  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:28 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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[QUOTE=Ed Zotti;20835796]
a. Quote attributed to real SDMB user. Quote must be accurate, whether displayed using
Quote:
tags or ordinary quotation marks. .
The part about ordinary quotation marks seems to be a major change, why?
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  #3  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:44 PM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed zotti View Post
We're revising the rule about quoting other users.
FTFY.

SPOILER:
psych!



Last edited by kayaker; 03-09-2018 at 12:44 PM.
  #4  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:49 PM
Starving Artist Starving Artist is offline
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Noted, and thanks to Ed and all the moderators for the time, effort and discussion you've put in to weigh this issue, come to a consensus and arrive at a conclusion intended to best serve the board. It would have been easy and less work for you both now and in the future to just declare changing user names in the Pit verboten and be done with it. I think the effort you've put in exemplifies Spice Weasel's observation that behind the scenes you are more impartial, reasonable and fair than many give you credit for. Kudos all around.
  #5  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:53 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
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Mostly we just stomp our feet and stick out tongues out at each other until Ed slams our heads together.

But we cover it up pretty well.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:00 PM
Starving Artist Starving Artist is offline
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Indeed you do.

But thanks nonetheless.
  #7  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:23 PM
Musicat Musicat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starving Artist View Post
Noted, and thanks to Ed and all the moderators for the time, effort and discussion you've put in to weigh this issue, come to a consensus and arrive at a conclusion intended to best serve the board. It would have been easy and less work for you both now and in the future to just declare changing user names in the Pit verboten and be done with it. I think the effort you've put in exemplifies Spice Weasel's observation that behind the scenes you are more impartial, reasonable and fair than many give you credit for. Kudos all around.
Starving Artist, meet Ass. Got a cite for "[all] the time, effort and discussion you've put in to weigh this issue..."?

FYI, I support the administrative change.

Last edited by Musicat; 03-09-2018 at 01:25 PM.
  #8  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:08 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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This is a pretty good formulation of the rules, IMO.
  #9  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:45 PM
Starving Artist Starving Artist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
Starving Artist, meet Ass.
No comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicat
Got a cite for "[all] the time, effort and discussion you've put in to weigh this issue..."?
It should be obvious to anyone who's been following the issue in the 'Rules clarification' thread. I suggest you start there.
  #10  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:54 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Forgive me for nitpicking, please!

Edit: also forgive me for responding to a post about not changing quoted text by changing the quoted text: without my edits below, your use of the bracketed word QUOTE complete fucks up the formatting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Zotti View Post
Here's the revised rule:

Falsely attributing a quote to another SDMB user, or modifying another's post in order to cast him/her in a bad light, is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. We allow parody quotes under certain conditions. Here are the permissible options:

a. Quote attributed to real SDMB user. Quote must be accurate, whether displayed using [[edit: this is added to break the tag]QUOTE] tags or ordinary quotation marks. Normal editorial rules apply: that is, you may indicate omitted portions of a quote by the use of ellipses "..." or devices such as [snip]. You may add text to clarify a word using square brackets (e.g., "her [the sister's] friend"), but you may not add editorial comments or edit a quote so as to change the substantive meaning; nor may you substitute text such as "some blather" or "more nonsense" inside the [[edit: this is added to break the tag]QUOTE] tags or quotation marks. This applies to all forums including the Pit.
So, two things:
1) How strict are you planning to be with the quotation marks thing? I can easily see someone posting something like this:
Quote:
LHOD, your "Let's all join a union!" stance smacks of communism.
If I didn't say the words in quotes, is that going to merit a warning or note? Or is this sort of paraphrase-using-quote-marks going to be allowed still? I think I see it a lot, without being noted, so this would be a change, IMO.
2) I got a (reversed) warning awhile ago for replacing a pronoun with words in brackets that I believed (and the poster agreed) were an accurate summary of the pronoun's antecedent. You mentioned above that brackets should be used to add, not replace, words in a post. Will replacing words with brackets merit mod action? That seems reasonable to me, but I hope you'll be understanding with folks who miss this nuance, as often brackets are used for replacement, not simple addition.
Quote:
c. Parody attribution. In the Pit only, quotes (including parody quotes) may be attributed to a parody username, provided that (a) the parody username is obviously satirical - we'll be the judge of obviousness; and (b) no other rules are violated. Quotes attributed to parody usernames are not permitted in other forums.
I'm not super-clear on this. If someone responds outside of the pit to some dumbass thing I say with a post including this quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by What LHOD should have said
You're right, I screwed up, I'm sorry, y'all
is that actionable? Or is that something different from a parody quote?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 03-09-2018 at 03:56 PM.
  #11  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:08 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
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I would certainly sanction that in Great Debates or Elections.

Or, to make clear to all, we ain't gonna put up with any shilly-shallying inside the quote boxes in GD and Elections. You may only edit out parts of quotes and bold quotes provided you announce that you have done so.

I hope that's clear.
  #12  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:33 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
I would certainly sanction that in Great Debates or Elections.
Your clarification uses the single most ambiguous verb in the English language. But I think I got what you mean.
Quote:
Or, to make clear to all, we ain't gonna put up with any shilly-shallying inside the quote boxes in GD and Elections. You may only edit out parts of quotes and bold quotes provided you announce that you have done so.
Wait, what? If I quote only part of what someone says, but I don't announce I've done so, that's a problem? We're gonna have to turn into a board full of doorhinges? I really hope I'm misunderstanding you.
  #13  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:45 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
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Best practices indicate that posters should indicate where they've altered text inside a quote box. Not everyone does that, I'm aware, and we take such things into account. But the bald rule states that such should be indicated by the poster making the quote box. To not do so is to potentially open oneself to accusations of making changes and altering the meaning.
  #14  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:48 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Best practices indicate that posters should indicate where they've altered text inside a quote box. Not everyone does that, I'm aware, and we take such things into account. But the bald rule states that such should be indicated by the poster making the quote box. To not do so is to potentially open oneself to accusations of making changes and altering the meaning.
Indicating bolding, okay. But quoting parts of posts to respond to strikes me as best practice, as long as it's done in good faith--and if it's not, generally the person being quoted points that out quickly. I'd hope that mods would only get involved in egregious cases, and in those cases treating it as a jerk move, not establishing a new rule.
  #15  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:43 PM
John DiFool John DiFool is offline
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Appreciate the clarification.

Now, just want to be 100% clear. Assume all of the follow examples are in the Pit. What would, and would not, be a rules violation?

[Original post, quote link is to a random thread:]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozo the Clown View Post
LOL! Espresso users are so lame!
~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozo the Clown View Post
LOL! Espresso users are so lame cool!
FTFY.

-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozo the Clown View Post
LOL! Espresso users are so lame pathetic!
FTFY.

-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozo the Cluck View Post
LOL! Espresso users are so lame!
You are a sad excuse for a clown.

-----

Quote:
LOL! Espresso users are so lame suave!
FTFY, Boozehole.

-----

"LOL! Espresso users are so lame sublime!"

FTFY, Buggero.

Last edited by John DiFool; 03-09-2018 at 05:44 PM.
  #16  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:16 PM
Bone Bone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
If I didn't say the words in quotes, is that going to merit a warning or note? Or is this sort of paraphrase-using-quote-marks going to be allowed still? I think I see it a lot, without being noted, so this would be a change, IMO.
There isn't any intention to change treatment of quotation marks. The usage you use above for things like paraphrasing, etc. are apparent in context.

If someone were to say: You said, and I quote: "I am a poopy pants!"

Where you did not in fact say that you were a poopy pants, I'd say that's kinda jerky. Hardly anyone ever runs afoul of the rule that isn't using the HTML quote boxes - but people are quite creative so of course, context matters.
  #17  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:23 PM
Pleonast Pleonast is offline
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So, we’re allowed to mangle our own quotes? Like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleonast View Post
Cecil Adams is the perfect master.
Of course I never said that.
  #18  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:54 PM
Bone Bone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleonast View Post
So, we’re allowed to mangle our own quotes? Like:

Of course I never said that.
No. You are not allowed to alter text in the quote box, even if it is your own. This falls under part a in the post from Ed.
  #19  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:03 PM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Zotti View Post
a. Quote attributed to real SDMB user. Quote must be accurate, whether displayed using {quote} tags or ordinary quotation marks.
The part about ordinary quotation marks seems to be a major change,
Not really. The long standing rule is to not alter any quotes attributed to a real SDMB user, seems to me that this is simply clarifying to include quotation marks.

Unattributed quotes inside quotation marks are still fair game.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 03-09-2018 at 08:04 PM.
  #20  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:41 PM
Superdude Superdude is offline
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I appreciate the amount of time and discussion it took to get a consensus on this issue. Since I was among the people who asked for the clarification, I thank Ed Zotti and the moderating staff for giving the issue their attention.

The moderators and administrative staff don't get nearly as many kudos as they deserve. It's like firefighters/police/teachers, etc; if they do the job well, no one says anything. If something gets screwed up, however, it's all over the media.
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  #21  
Old 03-10-2018, 05:32 AM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John DiFool View Post
Now, just want to be 100% clear. .
Start by explaining just WTF an "espresso user" is.
  #22  
Old 03-10-2018, 07:01 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Start by explaining just WTF an "espresso user" is.
They can quit any time they want.
  #23  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:14 AM
BigT BigT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Not really. The long standing rule is to not alter any quotes attributed to a real SDMB user, seems to me that this is simply clarifying to include quotation marks.

Unattributed quotes inside quotation marks are still fair game.
It's still a change. Problem is, while unattributed quote boxes are well-defined

Quote:
This is an unattributed quote box because I did not include a name in the quote tag
unattributed quotation marks are not. In the normal world, clearly indicated parody would not count as an actual attribution. But it is unclear if this is the case here. I know that "FTFY" posts are treated as actual attributions, even though that abbreviation clearly indicates that the person did not say what is being quoted.

In practice, I don't use very many parody quotes, so it won't really affect me. But I am interested in what exactly counts as an attribution for quotation marks. I am glad, for example, that obviously paraphrased quotes do not count. I know what my common sense would say, but mine has always been different than the mods'.

I don't expect the mods to be able to necessarily articulate everything all at once. Watching how they moderate will be instructive. I presume that mod notes will continue to be used in all but the most egregious cases, so it shouldn't be hard to observe in practice. without worry of accidentally crossing the line.
  #24  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:32 AM
Pleonast Pleonast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
No. You are not allowed to alter text in the quote box, even if it is your own. This falls under part a in the post from Ed.
Then I humbly suggest the written rule reflect that.

Right now, the rule is about other users:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Zotti View Post
We're revising the rule about quoting other users. The revision aligns the written rule with current mod practice and is not a major departure.

Here's the revised rule:

Falsely attributing a quote to another SDMB user, or modifying another's post in order to cast him/her in a bad light, is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. We allow parody quotes under certain conditions. Here are the permissible options:
Part a. is a specification of the "rule about quoting other users".

Perhaps the intended rule is:
Quote:
We're revising the rule about quoting other users. The revision aligns the written rule with current mod practice and is not a major departure.

Here's the revised rule:

Falsely attributing a quote to another SDMB user, or modifying another's post in order to cast him/her in a bad light, is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. We allow parody quotes under certain conditions. Here are the permissible options:
  #25  
Old 03-10-2018, 12:50 PM
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Looks good to me, though I'd like to see it extended: if you're quoting, you're quoting and the same rules should apply to quoting non-Dopers as to Dopers.
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  #26  
Old 03-10-2018, 02:20 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is online now
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This is what we get when we hire the last copy-editor in the world ...
  #27  
Old 03-11-2018, 01:55 PM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I am interested in what exactly counts as an attribution for quotation marks.
This sort of thing, I'm guessing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
jtur88 writes:

> So many people today inherit life-shortening genes, and we keep them alive until they can reproduce more issue with life-shortening
> genes.

Do you have any proof of this claim?
  #28  
Old 03-11-2018, 05:29 PM
Ed Zotti Ed Zotti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
1) How strict are you planning to be with the quotation marks thing? I can easily see someone posting something like this:
Two things should be kept in mind. First, we don't routinely scrutinize quotes; mainly we respond to complaints. Second, in this as in all things, we try to use common sense. We recognize that quotation marks are often used casually, and that sometimes a quoted expression is actually just a paraphrase. What I had in mind here was an extended quotation to which the poster is responding. The fact that quotation marks are used rather than a quote box shouldn't be construed as license to misquote someone. That said, if in practice extending the rule to quotation marks proves too confusing, we may restrict it to quote boxes only.
Quote:
2) I got a (reversed) warning awhile ago for replacing a pronoun with words in brackets that I believed (and the poster agreed) were an accurate summary of the pronoun's antecedent. You mentioned above that brackets should be used to add, not replace, words in a post. Will replacing words with brackets merit mod action? That seems reasonable to me, but I hope you'll be understanding with folks who miss this nuance, as often brackets are used for replacement, not simple addition.
This part of the rule wasn't changed. Again, common sense will be the guide. Bracketed insertions should serve to clarify, not change the meaning.
  #29  
Old 03-11-2018, 06:39 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Zotti View Post
... in this as in all things, we try to use common sense. We recognize that quotation marks are often used casually, and that sometimes a quoted expression is actually just a paraphrase. What I had in mind here was an extended quotation to which the poster is responding. The fact that quotation marks are used rather than a quote box shouldn't be construed as license to misquote someone. That said, if in practice extending the rule to quotation marks proves too confusing, we may restrict it to quote boxes only.
Thanks for the clarification, Ed. Extending the strict rule to quotation marks had concerned me, too, because it's quite common to use them to paraphrase in good faith in order to get to the perceived core of an argument. It shouldn't be a transgression to say something like {quote} Your "I don't care" attitude is what I'm addressing here {unquote} which is pretty clearly paraphrasing the understanding of a message rather than implying that the person actually said those exact words.*

People often object to their comments being paraphrased on the grounds that the paraphrase isn't accurate, and IMHO that's just the normal course of debate. It shouldn't be grounds for complaints and sanctions just because it's within quotation marks if it's done in good faith and isn't an obvious attempt to misrepresent their actual words. I think we all agree that quote boxes themselves are different, and must not be altered except within the stated editorial rules.

--
* Or maybe a better example:

[Quote box containing an actual quote.]

ISTM that what this really means is "xxxxxxx".

Last edited by wolfpup; 03-11-2018 at 06:43 PM.
  #30  
Old 03-11-2018, 07:05 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Zotti View Post
Two things should be kept in mind.
Thanks for these clarifications. I found myself alarmed by this post, but if the intent is to keep things basically the same as it's been--and especially if any changes will be done via notes and not warnings wherever it's reasonable to do so--then I'm less concerned.
  #31  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:57 AM
Francis Vaughan Francis Vaughan is offline
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Just a few thoughts. Reading this and the parallel thread there, it looked as if there were some issues with the precise wording, but going back and reading them - they are a masterpiece of conciseness. They do actually accurately capture the constraints - even though you need to read them carefully.

However I think there is some value in decoupling the initial sentence about grounds for revocation of posting privileges from the rest, as they serve two different purposes. The rules about how to quote properly, are ones of style and politeness (and not being a jerk.) They belong with other rules about content and conduct.

That is a separate problem to deliberate bad behaviour in misquoting or attributing something with the intent to cast someone in a bad light.

One notes currently it would appear that misquoting or attributing to make them appear in a better light is OK. However it clearly falls afoul of the general rules on content of quotations - just not grounds for revocation of privileges. Currently with the two aspects of the rules running into one another it appears that the rules for quotations are a subsection of the rule about misattribution being grounds for revocation. They sort of are, but they don't really belong there. The manner in which the first part of the rule talks about other SDMB users, where the rules of quoted content implicitly refer to any SDMB user mask the element of the rules of quoting also referring to quoting one's self.

Really this is minor nit picking in the extreme - but I can't sleep - so my 2 cents worth.
  #32  
Old 03-12-2018, 05:35 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
But quoting parts of posts to respond to strikes me as best practice, as long as it's done in good faith--and if it's not, generally the person being quoted points that out quickly. I'd hope that mods would only get involved in egregious cases, and in those cases treating it as a jerk move, not establishing a new rule.
I agree it should be acceptable if done in good faith. However, IME it's pretty common for people to snip posts in a way that allows them to pretend that the quoted post has a certain meaning that they prefer to impute, and which would have been difficult if not impossible had they quoted more completely.
  #33  
Old 03-16-2018, 03:14 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
FTFY...
"FTFY"?
  #34  
Old 03-16-2018, 03:28 PM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
"FTFY"?
"Fixed That For You"

It was a lame joke, and I never explain jokes, lame or not.
Reply

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