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  #51  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Does this mean that John "Shit for Brains" Bolton won't stumble us into a war with Iran, Belgium, or Upper Volta? Gumdrops!
Nitpick: Burkina Faso. (Apologies — it’s a Doper affliction, as you well know...)
  #52  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:48 AM
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The republicans got 50 million votes for the house in the 2018 midterm. The republicans have done nothing but tried to cover up Trump's crimes.

The vast, vast majority of republican voters are fine with this behavior.
Or at minimum, they would be if Republicans would stop being so blatant about their oligarchal and bigoted attitudes. Most of the Republicans who are leaving the party still believe fundamentally in inequality, they just have a problem with the indecency and naked, unapologetic corruption of their ilk.
  #53  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:21 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is online now
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Originally Posted by survinga View Post
That might have been Max Boot. I think he wrote something like that.
That's it!

Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave, promoting his book, "The Corrosion of Conservatism":

Quote:
I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn't have been shocked, I should have seen this all along — but I was just so dismayed to see the kind of message that Donald Trump won on, which was completely antithetical to the brand of conservatism that I championed which I associate more with people like Ronald Reagan or George Will. Kind of a much more optimistic, open and inclusive brand of conservatism that doesn't stigmatize minorities, that focuses on American global leadership, on free trade, on limited government at home. That's the kind of conservatism that I signed up for, but that's not the kind of conservatism that Donald Trump espouses. I mean he is someone who uses bigotry and prejudice, caters to racism and sexism and xenophobia, divides America and spreads conspiracy theories. It was truly a soul-crushing event for me to see somebody like that take over the Republican Party, and in fact, the conservative movement. And that's why I exited the Republican Party and I'm not even sure I want to call myself a conservative anymore, because I don't know what Conservative means anymore other than 'Trump toady.' "
  #54  
Old 12-18-2018, 03:41 AM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That's it!

Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave, promoting his book, "The Corrosion of Conservatism":
Quote:
the brand of conservatism that I championed which I associate more with people like Ronald Reagan or George Will. Kind of a much more optimistic, open and inclusive brand of conservatism that doesn't stigmatize minorities
He just can't stop lying, can he?

It's that, or he doesn't regard gay people as... well... people, because if they're a people they're damn sure a minority.
  #55  
Old 12-18-2018, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That's it!

Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave, promoting his book, "The Corrosion of Conservatism":
"I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn't have been shocked, I should have seen this all along ...."

Should have seen it all along? After a generation of Gingrich. Limbaugh, Coulter and Palin?
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  #56  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:00 PM
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"I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn't have been shocked, I should have seen this all along ...."

Should have seen it all along? After a generation of Gingrich. Limbaugh, Coulter and Palin?
Hilarious. He's like those scientists in a Michael Crichton novel..."We were just trying to clone dinosaurs -- how would we know they'd start eating the tourists?!?"
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  #57  
Old 12-18-2018, 03:51 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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A good piece from The Atlantic on how the contemporary GOP became so relentlessly corrupt: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...orrupt/578095/
  #58  
Old 12-18-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
He just can't stop lying, can he?

It's that, or he doesn't regard gay people as... well... people, because if they're a people they're damn sure a minority.
Yes, Republicans in 1980 were not very friendly to gay people. But then, neither were Democrats.

There is little doubt that Republicans are different now than they were 30-40 years ago, and in universally worse ways. Society was not at all accepting of gay people in 1980, and that's an evil we've come a long way fixing. But as compared to the rest of society, conservatism in 1980 wasn't this... mean, for want of a better way of putting it. Politicians have always been mean from time to time, but meanness and cruelty now seems to be the main purpose of conservatism.

This is not, incidentally, just an American thing. Conservatives in Canada are becoming weirdly, inexplicably mean in a way they just weren't in the past. The conservatives of Canada's past in the 1970s and 1980s were conservative but they seemed to want to do things that would be good for the country. They had big ideas and thought strategically and for the common good. Today's version don't seem to have big ideas; beyond the standard mindless "Cut taxes cut regulation" stuff it's just about being mean to someone and trying to hustle and insult their way to the next political win.

I used to call myself a conservative, many years ago; today I'm nowhere near conservative, and it really doesn't have a lot to do with ideas. I remain firmly in support of free trade, free enterprise, and minimizing government interference to only what is necessary and that the market can't take care of. Those things don't seem to be at all important to conservative political parties, though. They just want to scream and insult and divide and hurt people, and I cannot oppose that shit strongly enough.
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  #59  
Old 12-18-2018, 04:57 PM
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I used to call myself a conservative, many years ago; today I'm nowhere near conservative, and it really doesn't have a lot to do with ideas. I remain firmly in support of free trade, free enterprise, and minimizing government interference to only what is necessary and that the market can't take care of. Those things don't seem to be at all important to conservative political parties, though. They just want to scream and insult and divide and hurt people, and I cannot oppose that shit strongly enough.
As an American ultra-liberal (centrist by European and democratic Asian standards) I sign off on free trade and free enterprise, but think that governmental intervention should be judged by cost/benefit considerations. That said, we are both neo-liberals by this guy's definition. That sort of neoliberalism covers the gamut from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman to Robert Reich, as well as 99% of the Democratic Party. It excludes the modern GOP, though not the party of Nixon or Eisenhower.

There's a grand conceptual coalition outside of the crazy.
  #60  
Old 12-18-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
As an American ultra-liberal (centrist by European and democratic Asian standards) I sign off on free trade and free enterprise, but think that governmental intervention should be judged by cost/benefit considerations. That said, we are both neo-liberals by this guy's definition. That sort of neoliberalism covers the gamut from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman to Robert Reich, as well as 99% of the Democratic Party. It excludes the modern GOP, though not the party of Nixon or Eisenhower.

There's a grand conceptual coalition outside of the crazy.
I don't like "neoliberal" because it's become a snarl term used by the left and the right, and prefer something more along the lines of just liberal, as in the liberal consensus, which broadly dominated American politics until the Civil Rights Movement caused the Republicans to go bugfuck.
  #61  
Old 12-18-2018, 07:39 PM
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I don't like "neoliberal" because it's become a snarl term used by the left and the right, and prefer something more along the lines of just liberal, as in the liberal consensus, which broadly dominated American politics until the Civil Rights Movement caused the Republicans to go bugfuck.
That twitter user adopts it because it's a snarl term. He notes that there's a long history of that sort of re-appropriation.

Which is great for a twitter account. Not so much for general usage. The point remains though: there's a huge ideological territory encompassing the Democrats, but excluding those who reject the scientific consensus on evolution and global warming, while embracing crackpot economic theories. This pro-scientific territory covered both parties prior to 1978: folks like the Know-nothings existed but were marginalized.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 12-18-2018 at 07:41 PM.
  #62  
Old 12-19-2018, 11:22 AM
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Two more Kansas Republicans switch parties.

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Sen. Dinah Sykes and Rep. Stephanie Clayton, both moderate Johnson County Republicans, said Wednesday they are becoming Democrats. They join Sen. Barbara Bollier, who left the Republican Party earlier in December.
The three lawmakers in Kansas who have switched parties are by no means conservative, so perhaps this post doesn't belong in this thread. But I think it's telling that even in Very Red Kansas there are defectors from the right-wing ideology that is dominating the Republican party.
  #63  
Old 12-20-2018, 12:10 AM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Here's CNN's coverage: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/polit...rat/index.html

I can't remember the last time a state legislator went from red to blue. Far more often than not in recent years it's been the other way around, unfortunately.
  #64  
Old 12-20-2018, 09:21 AM
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The switches are consistent with the voting patterns we are seeing. Suburbs are increasingly becoming Democratic; rural areas are identifying as Republican, especially in the South, where it has taken this long for some old-line Democrats to accept that their ideology simply isn't part of the Democratic Party's views anymore.
  #65  
Old 12-22-2018, 01:05 PM
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The Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, Tani Cantil-Sakauye, has renounced her Republican registration citing partisan misbehavior by Trump, and by the Senate during the Brett Kavanaugh hearing.

Kansas State Senator Barbara Bollier has become a Democrat after 43 years as a Republican, citing morality and the GOP's 'absurd' stance on LGBTQ issues.

Top conservative thinkers who've left the GOP and are urging people to vote for Democrats include George Will and Max Boot.



Steve Schmidt is a top Republican strategist, serving in high White House positions under Bush-Cheney, and as Communications Director of the National Republican Congressional Committee, etc.


Several former Senators and Congressmen have left the GOP recently: David Jolly, Gordon Humphrey, Joe Scarborough, etc.

Republicans who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016 include President G.H.W. Bush, Henry Paulson, Colin Powell, Christine Todd Whitman, John Warner, etc. In addition many, like Gov. John Kasich, voted for a 3rd-party candidate or a write-in.

One top Republican who's left the GOP cited Susan Collins' vote to confirm Kavanaugh as evidence that there's nothing left in the Party worth salvaging. She is supposedly the beacon of hope for GOP moderation and sanity, yet sacrificed all principles to make a dishonest and fawning speech in support of this misogynist perjuring hyper-partisan judge.

Why haven't more thinking Americans left the GOP? Can we retain any respect for those who haven't?
If your thread title said that some liberal Republicans are leaving the party, I would agree. In what universe are the people you mentioned conservative? How are LBGTQ issues and ignoring ICE detainers conservative? How is hatred of Kavanaugh conservative?
  #66  
Old 12-22-2018, 02:11 PM
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Over the past 30 years, my views have gone from Moderate Left to Flaming Liberal. Thing is, my views haven't changed that much.

What's changed is how so-called Conservatives now frame the conversation. It has moved so far to the right, it puts rational, reasonable folks on both sides of the center much further to the left. I view most of the people in septimus's list as being formerly Moderate Right (Steve Schmidt, David Jolly, e.g.) or just a bit further (Joe Scarborough, George Will, e.g.). But none of them ever swallowed the Bat Shit Crazy Alt Right perspective -- which is now characterized as "Conservative."

If John Kasich is the new definition of a "Moderate Conservative," well, that's crazy talk.
  #67  
Old 12-22-2018, 02:46 PM
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If your thread title said that some liberal Republicans are leaving the party, I would agree. In what universe are the people you mentioned conservative? How are LBGTQ issues and ignoring ICE detainers conservative? How is hatred of Kavanaugh conservative?
I don't see an I-am-joking emoticon in your post. Are you claiming that George Will or John Kasich is a "liberal Republican"? George Will
* opposes campaign finance reform,
* wants to abolish minimum wage,
* supports all tax cuts,
* opposes Roe v Wade,
* published a column about the rise of campus rape allegations that contained sentences like
Quote:
Originally Posted by George F. Will
"They are learning that when they say campus victimizations are ubiquitous ... and that when they make victimhood a coveted status that confers privileges, victims proliferate. And academia's progressivism has rendered it intellectually defenseless now that progressivism's achievement, the regulatory state, has decided it is academia's turn to be broken to government's saddle."
* and yet despite these ("liberal"? ) views, now encourages his readers to vote Democratic.
  #68  
Old 12-22-2018, 03:10 PM
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If your thread title said that some liberal Republicans are leaving the party, I would agree. In what universe are the people you mentioned conservative? How are LBGTQ issues and ignoring ICE detainers conservative? How is hatred of Kavanaugh conservative?
Is that what you think a conservative is? that is just deeply saddening.
  #69  
Old 12-22-2018, 03:30 PM
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If your thread title said that some liberal Republicans are leaving the party, I would agree.
Three people mentioned in this thread were moderate Republicans from Kansas. Dude, there are NO liberal Republicans in Kansas.
  #70  
Old 12-22-2018, 05:26 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Three people mentioned in this thread were moderate Republicans from Kansas. Dude, there are NO liberal Republicans in Kansas.
There are no liberal Republicans anywhere.
  #71  
Old 12-22-2018, 06:13 PM
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Since he is a regular op-ed columnist in the Times, I read David Brooks regularly. He fits into the David Frum mold pretty well and is probably less of a right winger than George Will. As much as he is a never-Trumper, he still does not seem to recognize, for example, that supply-side economics has never worked and likely never will work. He has described himself as a protege of Wm. Buckley. Buckley went to his grave claiming that McCarthy was a great American patriot and Brooks has, AFAIK, never said otherwise. I don't know how Brooks feels about gay issues, but he is generally a perfect example of the intellectual poverty of the conservative movement.
  #72  
Old 12-23-2018, 01:40 AM
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[off-topic] David Brooks is a pretentious, irritating, low-IQ twit. He once wrote an article complaining that Universities hired too few "conservative professors." (Creationists for the biology department? Climate deniers for geology? Austrian gold bugs for economics?). Uhhh, Brooksie: Teaching is a way of giving to society. Conservatives are takers.

Brooks complained when people insulted GWB, the dolt duped into a foolish war. Give Brooks a little credit — he was self-aware enough to recall that during the Clinton years he was unable to write a column without insulting Bill or his wife. Only now, he "realized that was wrong."

On Martin Luther King's birthday, Brooks wrote a column praising the GOP as the Party of Civil Rights. I read these columns while subscribed to the New York Times International Edition. They had a generous "vacation" policy —stop the paper for a week, and an extra week would be tacked on to extend the subscription. I told them I wanted to be on vacation whenever they published a David Brooks column.
  #73  
Old 12-23-2018, 07:08 AM
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There are no liberal Republicans anywhere.
The last one died in the Cincinnati zoo, circa 1980.
  #74  
Old 12-23-2018, 10:57 AM
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The Republican Party continues to consist of the set of all "true conservatives. It's just that the circle containing "true conservatives" is getting smaller and smaller and circles a different space than it used to.
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  #75  
Old 12-23-2018, 11:08 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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[off-topic] David Brooks is a pretentious, irritating, low-IQ twit. He once wrote an article complaining that Universities hired too few "conservative professors." (Creationists for the biology department? Climate deniers for geology? Austrian gold bugs for economics?). Uhhh, Brooksie: Teaching is a way of giving to society. Conservatives are takers.

Brooks complained when people insulted GWB, the dolt duped into a foolish war. Give Brooks a little credit — he was self-aware enough to recall that during the Clinton years he was unable to write a column without insulting Bill or his wife. Only now, he "realized that was wrong."

On Martin Luther King's birthday, Brooks wrote a column praising the GOP as the Party of Civil Rights. I read these columns while subscribed to the New York Times International Edition. They had a generous "vacation" policy —stop the paper for a week, and an extra week would be tacked on to extend the subscription. I told them I wanted to be on vacation whenever they published a David Brooks column.
Brooks has been writing a series of columns about how we need civility and why the parties should come together. He talks about the faulty ways Republicans look at the world ... and never, ever, even once does bigotry and racism and intolerance get mentioned. Never. It's an astounding high-wire performance. He's the Philippe Petit of columnists.
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