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  #51  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:00 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
FYI, here is the 2017 thread on exactly this (dumb ass) topic: Russian Foes of Putin to US Liberals: "STOP Making Putin Out to Be a Mastermind!!!!"
There's a difference between saying "Putin is a genius and smarter than all of us!" and saying "Putin has malign intent." The OP seems to be objecting to people saying the latter.
  #52  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:02 PM
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QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with.
Did you miss this?

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yes, of course every nation of any significance tries to interfere with every other nation of any significance. That's not the issue here. The issue here is who was trying to help other nations to interfere with our nation.
  #53  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:25 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with.
Nah.

It is like spies. Everyone does it but the thing is everyone gets indignant when they find one.

The difference here is who it is you are fucking with. It is one thing to poke a kitten, another to poke a tiger.

A superpower overtly manipulating an election of another superpower is inherently dangerous to the whole world. Not so when they mess with an election in Belize.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 01-15-2019 at 02:25 PM.
  #54  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:28 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it's dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies.
Yes, my cynical Scottish friend. The problem is that this time Kremlin succeeded in putting in the Oval Office someone who sees modern history through Kremlin's eyes, and is adversarial toward the country he is constitutionally & by oath supposed to protect.
  #55  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:44 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with.
Turnabout may be fair play, but the USA is the world's major naval power, and it's incredibly dangerous for it to be run by someone who sees it as a foreign enemy.

Trump—a pretend international businessman, whose mother was a foreigner, whose father's parents became American largely to escape the Great War, who has married two foreign women from non-NATO countries—is the least American American ever to serve in his present post. If he is also anti-American—and his "we're no better than them" rhetoric implies that he is, and that the nationalist stuff is just what he expects to sell well in a country he sees as murderous imperialists—then he is going to govern like he is a foreign agent.

There's a reason the US President is supposed to be an American, with no loyalty to any foreign prince. Trump lacks loyalty to the USA, and adores Putin; he's the wrong man for this job.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 01-15-2019 at 03:45 PM.
  #56  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:01 PM
Aspidistra Aspidistra is online now
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ISTM that those people who complain about the US interfering in other countries' elections, and say that this is a Very Bad Thing are usually those on the lefter side of politics.

People who complain about Russia interfering in US elections, and saying that it's a Very Bad Thing also seem to be on the lefter side of politics.

This seems pretty consistent to me. We think interfering in elections is bad all the time, no matter who's doing it and who it gets done to. So we get to complain about it all the time, no matter who's doing it and who it gets done to.

If you come across someone who thinks the US secretly muscling into the democratic process in South America or the Middle East or wherever is just fine and dandy, but that Russia doing the same to the US is terrible and wrong, by all means point out that person's hypocrisy. I just don't know that there are all that many of such people
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  #57  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with.
Wait, what? The question isn't "should we all have a good cry about Putin?" It's "is Putin influencing the workings of our nation, and should we take action to stop that?"

If Trump was compromised by Russian connections, do you think the appropriate response of the US government and populace is just, "Well, fair cop, we've been asses ourselves plenty?"
  #58  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:55 PM
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There are those of the left, like Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Bob Scheer, who argued Putin's corner during the invasion of Ukraine. I'm not sure what they're saying about collusion, I stopped paying attention in disgust. I am on the left btw.
  #59  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:06 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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Wait, what? The question isn't "should we all have a good cry about Putin?" It's "is Putin influencing the workings of our nation, and should we take action to stop that?"
Americans aren't going to be judging what Putin did. We're going to be judging what Trump did.

Trying to make this about Putin and what he did right or wrong means Trump supporters are approaching their last lines of defense.
  #60  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:12 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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There are those of the left, like Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Bob Scheer, who argued Putin's corner during the invasion of Ukraine.
Don't think so, chief. Not unless "let's do sanctions instead of war" is what you're talking about, which is a totally reasonable way to approach a superpower.

Sanctions which, by the way, Trump is trying to undo.
  #61  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:18 PM
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Don't think so, chief. Not unless "let's do sanctions instead of war" is what you're talking about, which is a totally reasonable way to approach a superpower.

Sanctions which, by the way, Trump is trying to undo.
You're incorrect. I remember BOTH of them retailing the "but Ukraine used to be part of Russia!" argument, and also that there were some unsavory types associated with the anti-Yanukovych movement--which are both true, but not an excuse to invade a country, or defend the invasion.
  #62  
Old 01-15-2019, 07:24 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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It is pretty weird to claim that previous Russian imperialism justifies present Russian expansionism.
  #63  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:15 PM
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You're incorrect. I remember BOTH of them retailing the "but Ukraine used to be part of Russia!" argument, and also that there were some unsavory types associated with the anti-Yanukovych movement--which are both true, but not an excuse to invade a country, or defend the invasion.
Why should any of us rely on your memory? Google ain't broken. If you can find an article or tweet excusing or defending the invasion, why not link it? I suspect you are misremembering a WaPo article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel
Neoconservatives, politicians and frustrated Cold Warriors filling armchairs in the outdated “strategic” think tanks that litter Washington will continue to howl at the moon. But U.S. policy should be run by the sober. The president would be well advised to investigate whether the European Union, Russia and the United States can join together to preserve Ukraine’s territorial unity; to support new and free elections; and to agree to allow Ukraine to be part of both the European Union and Russian customs union, while reaffirming the pledge that NATO will not extend itself into Ukraine. It is time to reduce tensions and create possibility, not flex rhetorical muscles and fan the flames of folly.
  #64  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:52 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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You're incorrect. I remember
oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize your memory was your cite.

Just kidding, bring receipts or it's BS.
  #65  
Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM
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"I never said there was no collusion between the campaign, or people in the campaign," Giuliani said.

Even Trump's own lawyer is no longer saying, "No collusion."
  #66  
Old Yesterday, 11:39 AM
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Whew. I haven't seen backpedaling like that since I rewound my tape of the Tour de France.
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  #67  
Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War
Which Republicans thought was just great, while leftists protested.
Quote:
it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with.
Leftists are protesting this, while Republicans think it's just great. Everybody's being consistent.
  #68  
Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM
Ancient Erudite Ancient Erudite is offline
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Yes, my cynical Scottish friend. The problem is that this time Kremlin succeeded in putting in the Oval Office someone who sees modern history through Kremlin's eyes, and is adversarial toward the country he is constitutionally & by oath supposed to protect.
Really? Why did Trump attack Syria when Putin warned him not to.

One could argue there are 10,000+ victims every year from lack of border security. Trump is for increased border security. The left was for this years ago, but now they are against the idea.
  #69  
Old Yesterday, 05:45 PM
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... Trump is for increased border security. ...
No he isn't, all he wants is a big fucking wall.

Last edited by bobot; Yesterday at 05:45 PM.
  #70  
Old Yesterday, 06:34 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by Ancient Erudite View Post
By fueling the fire and fanning the flames of collusion, which of course is a fantasy pipe dream with over two years of nothing, they are playing into Putin's hands. The left has empowered Putin with this collusion nonsense, and there was no interference on the level of changing votes.

Ironic, when Trump said the election was rigged, many on the left frowned and laughed. Now, that is what they are running with and there is a political price to pay.
Multiple people have already been indicted. Trump could be under sealed indictment right now, and those indictments will be unsealed when he is no longer president.

There hasn't been a single investigation into Trump & russia that has been honest and also done to completion. Mueller is still working. And as I mentioned, the Russia collusion is just one of many, many crimes Trump and his administration are being investigated for.

More than that, Hillary had about 7 benghazi investigations. 0 indictments. Mueller has indicted at least 36 people so far. So far Trumps campaign manager, head of intelligence, personal attorney and a bunch of other people have flipped and given info to the government. Trump is already an unindicted co-conspirator in the Michael Cohen case in NY.

I made the mistake of assuming you were debating in good faith. You just want to live in a bubble of ignorance because the real world is unpleasant and lies are pleasurable. There is a term for that, rhymes with doughflake.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; Yesterday at 06:35 PM.
  #71  
Old Today, 12:17 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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ERMAHGERD. A new crime. Who saw that coming.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/17/polit...cow/index.html

Add new charges of obstruction of justice, perjury, witness tampering and who knows what else to the pile 'o crimes being investigated.
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  #72  
Old Today, 12:48 AM
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This whole thread is just another in a string of attempts to convince liberals to shut up. It's the same flavor of, "By protesting against Trump, liberals only increase Trump's support." The underlying message is that liberals should just shut up and be quiet because that... um... Makes it better? I guess?
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