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  #101  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:27 PM
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  #102  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Can you identify a society that you think is doing it right? Maybe we can emulate that society a little bit. What society is doing it better than the USA?
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  #103  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Can you identify a society that you think is doing it right? Maybe we can emulate that society a little bit. What society is doing it better than the USA?
"Everyone else is worse" is a bullshit argument.
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  #104  
Old 03-15-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
At no point in this thread did I ever do anything remotely like "defend sexual assault", either as a consequence of male libido or anything else.
You did it every time you used the term "horndog"
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To claim that I did is insulting and so far off base as to be essentially threadshitting.
If you think it's threadshitting, report me.

I'm giving you my honest opinion on how I perceive your preference for euphemistic turns of phrase for sexual assault. That's not threadshitting. That's debate.

But maybe the mods disagree. So report me, then.
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If you think the word "horndog" sounds too innocent, then substitute "men who act like entitled jerks and/or sexual predators" because that was my intended meaning.
"Entitled jerks" and "sexual predators" are not remotely in the same league. Pick one. Make it the latter. Stick with that.
  #105  
Old 03-15-2020, 11:46 PM
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"Entitled jerks" and "sexual predators" are not remotely in the same league. Pick one. Make it the latter. Stick with that.
"Entitled jerks and sexual predators" is phrase lifted directly from Gyrate's post #82 in which he intended it to refer to those who commit any offense across the whole spectrum from the most minor to the most serious. I don't know what single word or phrase more appropriately encompasses the whole spectrum. Maybe "sexual offender" would be better than "horndog". I was very clear in what I meant, and even explained it to you. Your hostile attack here is misplaced and your belief that I'm somehow "defending" any of them, let alone all of them, is simply wrong to the point of being insulting, and not supported by anything I've ever said.
  #106  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Maybe "sexual offender" would be better than "horndog".
You think?
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your belief that I'm somehow "defending" any of them, let alone all of them, is [...snip...] not supported by anything I've ever said.
...other than your continued use of qualifiers like "Maybe".
  #107  
Old 03-16-2020, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I gave several examples that take place within US culture (and other Western cultures). Most aren't terribly cut and dry.

But this discussion has been had again and again, on this board and elsewhere. If you're really interested in learning about the topic, I recommend starting with the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_and_mass_media

I'll note that this goes far, far beyond politics. Every aspect of our culture is influenced and even tainted by this. The entertainment industry is a notable example -- just as notable as organized religion -- but this shit is everywhere. Hopefully things are changing, but we have a long, long way to go.

On the other hand, if you're perfectly content with how society treats women and girls, then I doubt you'll find any of this stuff interesting or persuasive.
I didn't see this before. It's one of your older posts. Let me comment on it now.

Yes, we have a long way to go, but have also come a long way. I don't see #MeToo helping with very much of it, and in fact in some ways it's started to be counterproductive in the way many men are distancing themselves from women in the corporate environment. Blame the men if you like, blame their paranoia or insecurities, but multiple research studies have concluded that it's true and it's real.

I've read the three articles you cited and I'll comment on them; for convenience of commentary, I'll go in reverse order:

Misogyny and and mass media
Not much to say here as basically I agree with you. Misogyny continues to be a significant problem, though I maintain we're making good progress, at least here in the western world. I wasn't aware of how much of it there was in rap music. Misogyny and racism are two enduring plagues in our modern society that need to be eradicated, but not by engaging in extremist tactics and ignoring unintended consequences to the innocent.

Patriarchy
It's another big problem, but so much progress has been made in the modern western world (though not elsewhere, especially in less developed countries and certain cultures) that I don't regard something that is rapidly improving as being indicative of a fundamentally broken society as you imply. A great many women are in important executive and government positions, though admittedly still much in a minority at the highest echelons. When Prime Minister Trudeau was elected in 2015, he vowed that half his Cabinet would be women. When asked why, he simply answered "because it's 2015". It was a challenge because there were not nearly as many women MPs as men to choose from, but all the ones he chose were, AFAICT, highly competent.

Rape Culture
You should read the Criticisms section of your own cite. Yes, it exists in parts of the world, notably India, but here in the modern western world important and influential organizations like The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) considers the term inappropriate and counterprodutive, citing one report that concludes that "the trend towards focusing on cultural factors that supposedly condone rape has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions". Professor Camille Paglia has described concerns about rape culture as "ridiculous" and "neurotic", an artifact of bourgeois liberal ideologies that people are essentially good and that all social problems can be remedied with education. This rape culture concept is much to the detriment of young college-educated women she says. Paglia argues that said individuals are ill-prepared to anticipate or cope with the small minority of deeply evil people in the world, who simply don't care about following laws or obeying social convention.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Why is this movement any more "emotionally driven" than the Civil Rights movement, or the gay rights movement, or the abolitionist movement?
It isn't, but the previous movements sought for oppressed minorities to be accorded basic human rights, not to engage in witch-hunts against their alleged oppressors.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Why is this relevant? Shitty men will behave shittily. Ignorant men will behave ignorantly. Why is this the fault of #MeToo, rather than the men who behave inappropriately and don't grant women the same opportunities?
It's something called "reality". As in the examples given previously (the Red Scare, the day-care hysteria) the potential victims of public moral hysteria are naturally going to be extra protective of their reputation and their liberty.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Progress has been made, but not nearly enough. As for Allen, what do you object to? That many workers at the publishing firm didn't want to work with a possible child molester? Or that the publishing firm acquiesced to these worker's demands? Allen can still write and publish -- but no firm is obligated work with him. There may be no way to determine factually whether Allen is guilty or not, but that is a legacy of our broken society -- back then, men got away with the stuff, as a rule with few exceptions. If he's innocent, it's a shame if many people think poorly of him. But that's not the fault of #MeToo -- that's the fault of a broken society that tolerated this kind of behavior for so long, making it impossible to determine all the facts in many circumstances.
It's absolutely the fault of #MeToo that a long-dead issue has been literally resurrected from the dead, for no good reason. Allen's guilt on certain issues (being a bad parent) and lack of evidence of other accusations (molestation of Dylan) has long been settled as much as it can ever be settled. The book cancellation was not determined by a management decision, but by mob rule which I imagine included some of the same terms against Allen that were used in social media against the judge who acquitted Ghomeshi: "aging, shameful, misogynistic, hate-filled, victim-blaming, ignorant, abusive, sickening, brutally vilifying, mansplaining, privileged white male."

It appears that his book will be published anyway by a French publisher, and that his film-making may largely move to Europe.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
These women are placed in an absolutely impossible situation, period. Telling what appears to be relevant to them in the moment will likely screw them. Telling absolutely every detail of their lives will also likely screw them ("You must have enjoyed it if you send the guy flowers afterwards!"). No wonder they might be confused about what they should talk about. "The whole truth" is an easy-to-understand concept when you're a man and you haven't been gaslit your whole life about sexuality. But not necessarily when there's never been anything approaching "the whole truth" in the way society has treated you with regards to sex, intimacy, and consent.
I not only disagree, but that statement is absolutely bizarre. It seems to be saying that the women were in an "impossible" situation because of they had told the truth, Ghomeshi would have been acquitted, and because they lied instead, Ghomeshi was acquitted. You seem to want the kind of judge I referred to earlier as the metaphorical "hanging judge": "we know you're guilty, now let's down to sentencing". That's not justice, and pushing for that kind of attitude is just what many of us completely innocent citizens fear.

It was widely believed that Ghomeshi would be found guilty because of the three independent witnesses. I think this is true, if they had told the truth. The judge was not interested in idiosyncratic behaviors, he was interested in honest testimony. What he got instead were evasions and lies, and one witness in particular engaging in public grandstanding supported by what she self-described as "great theater" on the witness stand. That's the reason Ghomeshi was acquitted, not because the judge was some ancient demented bigot. Please read post #97, from a highly respected CBC commentator, about the Ghoemshi verdict. That's why the judge reached his verdict, not because our society is fundamentally broken.

One of the witnesses in this trial, when caught in a lie, said she was just "trying to navigate her way through the legal process". The judge had a simple reply on how to do that: "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". It doesn't seem like a difficult maxim to follow. Inconsistencies and forgetfulness are readily accounted for and justified by psychological studies of trauma patients, but are also distinguishable from intentional calculated deceptions.
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Originally Posted by dorvann View Post
First I want say upfront my own experiences definitely color affect my views on these issues. I am a 44 year old male. I was sexually abused as a child more than once---once as as a toddler by a female babysitter, a second time at 8 by a 12 year old boy, and a violent assault at the age of 14 by three other teen boys. And I have seen one of my relatives be investigated by CPS and police of allegations that were proven to be false.

Second part of the reason I brought up lynchings is because at times the outrage mob on the internet at times resemble a lynch mob mentality. There have been numerous instances of people getting doxed and death threats because allegations and stories about what they allegedly did(or did not do) circulated on social media. And its not even people accused of sexual assault. Hunters have been harassed for posting pictures of game they killed online. People posted what they thought was George Zimmerman's address online and an innocent couple was harrased who had nothing to do with. Look at the movie Richard Jewell---it's about a security guard who was hounded by the media because they thought he was responsible for 1996 Olympics bombing. He received numerous death threats as well. It's concerning because it's easy to see the outrage and fury eventually leading to the killing of someone falsely accused even in today's modern age.

Third I wrote and deleted, re-wrote and deleted what I was going to say multiple times. It's frustrating to think about. On the one hand we don't want a de facto anarchist state where serial killers and rapists have free reign to traumatize their victims. On the other hand we also don't want a totalitarian state where a person can be convicted for life(or even executed) solely based on the word of one person. There's got be a fair middle ground somewhere. But I'll be damned to delineate what exactly it should be.(That's part of the reason I kept re-writing this--I had hard time trying to figure out how we can protect the rights of victims and the rights of the accused.)
Dorvann, you may have felt obliged to edit your post many times, but what you posted is eloquent and informative, and I thank you for it. I appreciate your frankness and am so sorry for the childhood trauma you must have faced. I also thank you for sharing my concern that injustice is one of the risks we face when confronted with powerful social movements.
  #108  
Old 03-16-2020, 02:51 AM
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Yes, we have a long way to go, but have also come a long way. I don't see #MeToo helping with very much of it,
...what is it, do you think #metoo was all about?

It was originally coined by Tarana Burke as a means to "empower women through empathy and strength in numbers." It was later used (first by Alyssa Milano) in 2017 when she said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milano
If all the women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote 'Me too.' as a status, we might give people a sense of the magnitude of the problem
That's it. That's what #metoo is. How has it helped? Thousands of women found out they weren't alone. Thousands of women became less afraid to talk about abuse and harassment. How can you argue that this this didn't help? Why are you framing this as "all about the men?" Where is your sense of perspective?

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and in fact in some ways it's started to be counterproductive in the way many men are distancing themselves from women in the corporate environment. Blame the men if you like, blame their paranoia or insecurities, but multiple research studies have concluded that it's true and it's real.
Who else is there to blame?

If men are distancing themselves from innocent women then those men are entirely to blame. It isn't the fault of a hashtag. It isn't the fault of the women they have distanced themselves from. The only way you could view the hashtag as counterproductive is if you look at it exclusively through the lens of a man.

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Rape Culture
You should read the Criticisms section of your own cite. Yes, it exists in parts of the world, notably India, but here in the modern western world important and influential organizations like The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) considers the term inappropriate and counterprodutive, citing one report that concludes that "the trend towards focusing on cultural factors that supposedly condone rape has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda Marcotte
This doesn’t make sense. People who use the phrase “rape culture” do not deny that rape is a matter of individuals making the active choice to rape. “Rape culture” is a very useful way to describe the idea that rapists are given a social license to operate by people who make excuses for sexual predators and blame the victims for their own rapes. Instead of recognizing this, or, at the very least, just not bringing it up at all in its memo, RAINN instead bashes a straw man, arguing that the focus on “rape culture” diverts “the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

Feminists who coined and spread the phrase “rape culture” are not denying that rapists need to be held personally responsible for their criminal behavior. They are pointing out all the cultural reasons that this doesn’t happen: the myth that false accusations are common, the myth that rapists are just confused about consent, and the myth that victims share the blame for drinking too much or otherwise making themselves vulnerable. Only by tackling these cultural problems will we be able to see clearly that rapists know exactly what they’re doing and punish them for it. Rape culture doesn’t cause the desire to rape, but it allows rapists to rape with the confidence that comes from knowing you’re very unlikely to be prosecuted for it. Surely they have Google search at the RAINN offices that could have helped clear this up, but if not, an intern could have called one of the many feminists who speak out regularly about this issue to understand it better before dismissing it publicly.
https://slate.com/human-interest/201...l-assault.html

Quote:
Professor Camille Paglia has described concerns about rape culture as "ridiculous" and "neurotic", an artifact of bourgeois liberal ideologies that people are essentially good and that all social problems can be remedied with education. This rape culture concept is much to the detriment of young college-educated women she says. Paglia argues that said individuals are ill-prepared to anticipate or cope with the small minority of deeply evil people in the world, who simply don't care about following laws or obeying social convention.
Camille Paglia is also a trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist. She supported lowering the age of consent to 14 and once said "I fail to see what is wrong with erotic fondling with any age." She is entitled to an opinion. But we shouldn't regard her opinion as authoritative in regards to rape culture, especially as she doesn't appear to understand what it actually is.
  #109  
Old 03-16-2020, 03:21 AM
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If Camille Paglia is a nutcase then I withdraw the quote with my apologies. I know nothing about her other than the Wikipedia citation. But RAINN is one of the largest and most influential organizations supporting women against sexual violence, and if Amanda Marcotte claims that they don't know what they're talking about, then, given that Amanda Marcotte has her own controversies to deal with, I'll side with RAINN.
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:44 AM
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If Camille Paglia is a nutcase then I withdraw the quote with my apologies. I know nothing about her other than the Wikipedia citation.
...those quotes and her opinions are available on her wiki page. They aren't a secret.

Quote:
But RAINN is one of the largest and most influential organizations supporting women against sexual violence, and if Amanda Marcotte claims that they don't know what they're talking about, then, given that Amanda Marcotte has her own controversies to deal with, I'll side with RAINN.
You don't need to side with RAINN. You can critically analyse what they have to say for yourself. Or you could look at all the other organizations that didn't criticise rape culture once, back in 2014. It was one paragraph in a set of recommendations and a search of RAINN's website only finds one mention of "rape culture" and its a link to that report.

Its seems self evident they were arguing a strawman. Rape culture doesn't remove the focus from the individual at fault. Not in the slightest.

You are cherry picking. There were many criticisms of RAINN's statement which the male President of RAINN defended by saying "Many people interpret it-men in particular-as accusatory," he said. "We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger." So the entire point of including that paragraph in the original report was to protect the sensibilities of people like you. And here you are, six years later, using it exactly as intended.
  #111  
Old 03-16-2020, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
I don't see #MeToo helping with very much of it, and in fact in some ways it's started to be counterproductive in the way many men are distancing themselves from women in the corporate environment. Blame the men if you like, blame their paranoia or insecurities, but multiple research studies have concluded that it's true and it's real.
This is a side effect of these issues actually coming to prominence, which is both good and necessary. And the reason these issues have come to prominence is #MeToo.

Your placing the blame for bad behavior by men in power on #MeToo is absolutely nuts. It's the height of victim-blaming, and frankly I find it repulsive. It's only different in scale than blaming the Civil Rights movement for black church bombings.

Quote:
Rape Culture
You should read the Criticisms section of your own cite. Yes, it exists in parts of the world, notably India, but here in the modern western world important and influential organizations like The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) considers the term inappropriate and counterprodutive, citing one report that concludes that "the trend towards focusing on cultural factors that supposedly condone rape has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions". Professor Camille Paglia has described concerns about rape culture as "ridiculous" and "neurotic", an artifact of bourgeois liberal ideologies that people are essentially good and that all social problems can be remedied with education. This rape culture concept is much to the detriment of young college-educated women she says. Paglia argues that said individuals are ill-prepared to anticipate or cope with the small minority of deeply evil people in the world, who simply don't care about following laws or obeying social convention.
As noted by Banquet Bear, Paglia is not a credible critic. And the RAINN criticism straw-mans the concept.

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It isn't, but the previous movements sought for oppressed minorities to be accorded basic human rights, not to engage in witch-hunts against their alleged oppressors.
Neither does #MeToo. #MeToo is advocating for women and girls to be accorded basic human rights, when these have been denied for so long (i.e. freedom from abuse, and if abuse occurs, freedom to speak about abuse and advocacy for bringing abusers to justice).

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It's something called "reality". As in the examples given previously (the Red Scare, the day-care hysteria) the potential victims of public moral hysteria are naturally going to be extra protective of their reputation and their liberty.
Only the ignorant and shitty ones. This is no more the fault of #MeToo than lynchings were the fault of Civil Rights activists.

Quote:
It's absolutely the fault of #MeToo that a long-dead issue has been literally resurrected from the dead, for no good reason.
Yes, it's the "fault" of #MeToo that we actually take a critical look at powerful men rather than ignoring potential past mistreatment of women and girls. This is a good thing. You can whine and complain all you want, but you're not going to convince me that it's wrong to consider the whole life of powerful men when deciding whether to shower more wealth and achievement onto them.

Quote:
It appears that his book will be published anyway by a French publisher, and that his film-making may largely move to Europe.
So even with all your whining and complaining, Allen will continue to live a life that's easier and better then 99.999% of humans. Poor, poor Allen.

Quote:
I not only disagree, but that statement is absolutely bizarre. It seems to be saying that the women were in an "impossible" situation because of they had told the truth, Ghomeshi would have been acquitted, and because they lied instead, Ghomeshi was acquitted. You seem to want the kind of judge I referred to earlier as the metaphorical "hanging judge": "we know you're guilty, now let's down to sentencing". That's not justice, and pushing for that kind of attitude is just what many of us completely innocent citizens fear.
The judge is only a piece of this. The women were in this impossible position because, just like Christine Blasey Ford, just like the accusers of Trump (and Cosby and Weinstein, for that matter), society places will treat them like garbage no matter what choices they make. Telling the truth isn't more likely to save them from threats and indignities than holding some of it (or all of it!) back. In fact, sometimes the only way, in this broken society, for these women to stay out of society's shitpile, is to just stay silent altogether, no matter what they've suffered. Progress has been made, but not nearly enough -- and this judge just added to that shitpile by failing to recognize this impossible position the women were already in.

Quote:
One of the witnesses in this trial, when caught in a lie, said she was just "trying to navigate her way through the legal process". The judge had a simple reply on how to do that: "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". It doesn't seem like a difficult maxim to follow. Inconsistencies and forgetfulness are readily accounted for and justified by psychological studies of trauma patients, but are also distinguishable from intentional calculated deceptions.
This is easy to say and not so easy to follow in this broken society that so often places women in impossible situations. This judge isn't a monster, but he doesn't get it and deserves some of the criticism he's getting, IMO.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-16-2020 at 07:40 AM.
  #112  
Old 03-16-2020, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
I don't see #MeToo helping with very much of it, and in fact in some ways it's started to be counterproductive in the way many men are distancing themselves from women in the corporate environment. Blame the men if you like, blame their paranoia or insecurities, but multiple research studies have concluded that it's true and it's real.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This is a side effect of these issues actually coming to prominence, which is both good and necessary. And the reason these issues have come to prominence is #MeToo.

Your placing the blame for bad behavior by men in power on #MeToo is absolutely nuts. It's the height of victim-blaming, and frankly I find it repulsive.
Perhaps the men acting in this way should get their own viral hashtag.

I suggest #LookWhatYouMadeMeDo.
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