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  #151  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:30 PM
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"When Republican Bruce Rauner won an upset victory over Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, legislative Democrats moved in the lame-duck session to truncate the length of the term to which the governor could appoint a comptroller from four years to two. Democrats, Quinn included, claimed that this actually made the system more democratic, since it put the vacancy to a vote of the public sooner. “I think democracy is always better when the people call the shots, when the people are in charge,” Quinn said. “Not only is the action planned for tomorrow unconstitutional,” House Republican leader Jim Durkin countered, “it’s nothing short of a power grab by the Democratic majority in a lame-duck session.”"
Let's just say that this is accurate, but not the whole story.

As the above suggests, Comptroller is a statewide office in Illinois, is a four-year term, and is an elected office.

In November, 2014, Republican Bruce Rauner defeated Democrat incumbent Pat Quinn in the governor's race. In that same election, the incumbent Comptroller, Judy Baar Topinka (also a Republican), won re-election for her second term in the office. A month after the election (during the lame-duck session), Topinka died suddenly, from a stroke.

Quinn appointed a Democrat (Jerry Stermer) to serve in the office for the remaining few weeks of Topinka's term, and then Rauner's appointee (Leslie Munger) became comptroller in January of 2015, and (due to the rule change noted above) served the first two years of Topinka's second term, before having to run for election for the office in November of 2016 (where she lost to Democrat Susana Mendoza).

I absolutely can see the concern about changing the rules during the lame-duck session. But, had the rule not been changed, Munger would have been able to serve an entire four-year term in an elected office, without having ever stood for election for that office. Had the Democrats really wanted to throw their weight around in a lame-duck session, they could have undoubtedly made the new rule even more disadvantageous to Rauner, or shortened the length of an emergency appointee's term even further. And, it was only Topinka's sudden passing, immediately before embarking on a four-year elected term, which led to the rule change, at all.

(Disclosure: though I don't agree with her politically, Leslie Munger and I have been friends for decades.)

Last edited by kenobi 65; 12-07-2018 at 01:35 PM.
  #152  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:56 PM
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Eh, it's entirely germane to the question of whether this kind of power grab is unprecedented or not.
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  #153  
Old 12-07-2018, 02:00 PM
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Eh, it's entirely germane to the question of whether this kind of power grab is unprecedented or not.
If the Illinois example was really a similar precedent to what was just done in Wisconsin, then the change in law which the Democrats made during the lame-duck session would have meant that Rauner wouldn't have been allowed to designate an appointee at all (i.e., forcing the office to remain unfilled until a special election could quickly be called and administered in early 2015), or Quinn would have been allowed to designate his own appointee for the entirety of Topinka's four-year term.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 12-07-2018 at 02:02 PM.
  #154  
Old 12-07-2018, 02:57 PM
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Eh, it's entirely germane to the question of whether this kind of power grab is unprecedented or not.
leave the Germans out of this
  #155  
Old 12-07-2018, 03:40 PM
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Eh, it's entirely germane to the question of whether this kind of power grab is unprecedented or not.
It's also redundant, considering that topic has its own thread in this forum.
  #156  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:31 PM
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Also, it's no different from that time Stalin had his political enemies murdered. It was just politicking then

Yeah, you're equating this to committing murder and genocide. Hyperbole much?


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If it weren't for double standards, Democrats would have no standards at all:
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander is a standard lost on the left when they are not in power. Let's see how they feel when they have a majority back. Even with so called gerrymandering nothing ever stays the same. And as I said before, paybacks are a bitch. Whether it's 2 years, 4, or more, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
  #157  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:17 PM
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"When they have a majority back"? They have a majority right now.
  #158  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:27 PM
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"When they have a majority back"? They have a majority right now.
  #159  
Old 12-08-2018, 10:11 AM
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Yeah, you're equating this to committing murder and genocide. Hyperbole much?




What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander is a standard lost on the left when they are not in power. Let's see how they feel when they have a majority back. Even with so called gerrymandering nothing ever stays the same. And as I said before, paybacks are a bitch. Whether it's 2 years, 4, or more, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
In other words, "we HAVE to abuse our power now because they MIGHT when the tables are turned."
  #160  
Old 12-08-2018, 12:01 PM
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First off, both sides do it. Therefore, it follows that the Dems would/will behave in the same fashion when circumstances permit. In that perspective, the Republicans are giving valuable moral guidance by restricting the Dem's access to such temptations!

By limiting the power of Dems and their voters, they protect them from the moral depravity that would surely follow. Of course, they take on themselves the rigor and discipline required to overcome such dark urges, and can be forgiven....nay, must be forgiven!...if they have occasional failures. Republicans are human, just a lot better at it.

Concerned voices are fraught with worry, and urge Dems to be accepting and generous. After all, if both parties submit to Republican standards and goals, bi-partisan accord can easily be reached!

Comity gold!
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  #161  
Old 12-08-2018, 03:21 PM
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And as I said before, paybacks are a bitch. Whether it's 2 years, 4, or more, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
Here's to hoping they fuck over the police union as hard as the teachers.
  #162  
Old 12-08-2018, 03:56 PM
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It's just basic math. The majority of votes in your state voted for the democratic party to represent them not just at the governor level, but in the legislature as well.

However, since your state is highly gerrymandered, even though the majority of your fellow residents wish for a different government, the republican one that the majority has rejected still stays in power.

Not that confusing, unless you are either really bad at math, or even worse at democracy.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 12-08-2018 at 03:57 PM.
  #163  
Old 12-08-2018, 03:59 PM
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Here's to hoping they fuck over the police union as hard as the teachers.
While that would be in keeping with the poster's sentiment that paybacks are a bitch and him having to experience the effects that he wishes upon others would in fact be a bitch, I am actually hoping that they unfuck the teacher's union.
  #164  
Old 12-08-2018, 04:22 PM
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Here's to hoping they fuck over the police union as hard as the teachers.
Why would pkbites care? He's not in it anymore - not his problem
  #165  
Old 12-08-2018, 05:08 PM
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It's just basic math. The majority of votes in your state voted for the democratic party to represent them not just at the governor level, but in the legislature as well.

However, since your state is highly gerrymandered, even though the majority of your fellow residents wish for a different government, the republican one that the majority has rejected still stays in power.

Not that confusing, unless you are either really bad at math, or even worse at democracy.
Ah. So I should have used the term "back in control" instead of "back in the majority". Got it.


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Why would pkbites care? He's not in it anymore - not his problem
Nice of you to answer for me.

But actually I am. After I retired I took a position with another agency, first part-time, then accepting full-time when they offered to me.

Not a whole lot they could do to screw us over. This union is even weaker than the Deputy Sheriff union I was in during my first career. I don't really know what more they could do to us that would screw us over. They already use part-timers instead of giving a lot of OT to full timers. The union hates that but has not been able to get rid of it. I've been to fact finding hearings and watched the dismal representation the union gave to officers that really didn't do anything wrong.
This union tries to hard to appease management. They don't need Scott Walkers help to screws us over.
  #166  
Old 12-08-2018, 05:32 PM
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Ah. So I should have used the term "back in control" instead of "back in the majority". Got it.
No, you are justifying anti-democratic policies, regardless of what terms you use. If the majority is not in control, then you are no longer really governing by the consent of the governed anymore, are you? You are imposing your will on those who do not consent to it. What's that called again?

Yes, the term that you are actually looking for is authoritarianism. It is exactly what you are advocating here.

So, if you actually want to use the term right, you should have said, "overcome the authoritarian power that has taken control of the state."
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Nice of you to answer for me.

But actually I am. After I retired I took a position with another agency, first part-time, then accepting full-time when they offered to me.

Not a whole lot they could do to screw us over. This union is even weaker than the Deputy Sheriff union I was in during my first career. I don't really know what more they could do to us that would screw us over. They already use part-timers instead of giving a lot of OT to full timers. The union hates that but has not been able to get rid of it. I've been to fact finding hearings and watched the dismal representation the union gave to officers that really didn't do anything wrong.
This union tries to hard to appease management. They don't need Scott Walkers help to screws us over.
So, if they just up and got rid of the police union, would you consider that a good or bad thing, on balance?
  #167  
Old 12-08-2018, 05:58 PM
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From the "White America Doesn't Understand Democracy" thread:

And: Never did see any response from you there.
Nor here either.

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  #168  
Old 12-08-2018, 06:24 PM
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Not a whole lot they could do to screw us over. This union is even weaker than the Deputy Sheriff union I was in during my first career. I don't really know what more they could do to us that would screw us over. They already use part-timers instead of giving a lot of OT to full timers. The union hates that but has not been able to get rid of it. I've been to fact finding hearings and watched the dismal representation the union gave to officers that really didn't do anything wrong.
This union tries to hard to appease management. They don't need Scott Walkers help to screws us over.
I love how you think it's your god given right to get overtime pay. Talk about entitled.
  #169  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:51 PM
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Not a whole lot they could do to screw us over. This union is even weaker than the Deputy Sheriff union I was in during my first career. I don't really know what more they could do to us that would screw us over. They already use part-timers instead of giving a lot of OT to full timers. The union hates that but has not been able to get rid of it. I've been to fact finding hearings and watched the dismal representation the union gave to officers that really didn't do anything wrong.
This union tries to hard to appease management. They don't need Scott Walkers help to screws us over.
If your union itself is pathetic, that's not the state's fault. That's on the voters for leadership. Kinda like how people feel about Republicans in Kansas, North Carolina, Georgia, and Wisconsin.
  #170  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:02 AM
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If your union itself is pathetic, that's not the state's fault. That's on the voters for leadership. Kinda like how people feel about Republicans in Kansas, North Carolina, Georgia, and Wisconsin.
Not necessarily. Public sector unions have only those powers granted them by the governing authority (usually the state).
  #171  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:14 AM
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Not necessarily. Public sector unions have only those powers granted them by the governing authority (usually the state).
And the state gets its powers from the voters.
  #172  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:37 AM
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The ones who not only vote but whose votes get to matter.
  #173  
Old 12-09-2018, 06:22 PM
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I love how you think it's your god given right to get overtime pay. Talk about entitled.
I love how some on this thread are bitching about Republicans have screwed over the unions and then when I bring up a prime issue (unions hate employers having part-time, unrepresentative employees ) some point out the entitlement mentality of the union.

Of course unions have an entitlement mentality. It’s the main thing that lead to their downfall. I have little to no use for mine. It’s certainly not worth the over $1900 a year they want.

Last edited by pkbites; 12-09-2018 at 06:24 PM.
  #174  
Old 12-09-2018, 06:50 PM
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I saw the Democratic Governor-Elect on Meet The Press today, and he was holding out hope that Walker would veto this bullshit. Ho-Ho Holy Fuck!
  #175  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:42 PM
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I saw the Democratic Governor-Elect on Meet The Press today, and he was holding out hope that Walker would veto this bullshit. Ho-Ho Holy Fuck!
Yeah, I voted for the guy, but he's way too gentle for this.

Although I keep hoping it's just a act of civility until Walker passes the Power Grab. Then he morphs into Brilliant Tough Politician, and says "Ha! You walked right into my trap. Now, according to this law I found, we can jail everyone who voted for this, and perp-walk them out of the Capitol in leg irons!"
  #176  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:57 PM
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I love how you think it's your god given right to get overtime pay. Talk about entitled.
Is this sarcasm? Because you're goddamn right it's my god-given right to get overtime pay! If your country doesn't have their shit together on this, something is badly wrong.
  #177  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:27 AM
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Is this sarcasm? Because you're goddamn right it's my god-given right to get overtime pay! If your country doesn't have their shit together on this, something is badly wrong.
I suspect that yes, it is indeed sarcasm. At least if you're familiar with pkbites's posts.
  #178  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:08 AM
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I love how some on this thread are bitching about Republicans have screwed over the unions and then when I bring up a prime issue (unions hate employers having part-time, unrepresentative employees ) some point out the entitlement mentality of the union.

Of course unions have an entitlement mentality. It’s the main thing that lead to their downfall. I have little to no use for mine. It’s certainly not worth the over $1900 a year they want.
No, what unions usually complain about is hiring a bunch of part timers who take away full time jobs with benefits. Cops complain about not being able to pad their salary with overtime work.
  #179  
Old 12-10-2018, 08:18 AM
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No, what unions usually complain about is hiring a bunch of part timers who take away full time jobs with benefits.
I could have sworn that’s about what I said.


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Cops complain about not being able to pad their salary with overtime work.
I never take the time and a half pay. I prefer comp time.
  #180  
Old 12-10-2018, 08:38 AM
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I can start a new thread about the Wisconsin legislature's power grab, if it's too much of a hijack from this discussion about overtime, comp time, part time workers, and what different unions do and don't do for their workers.
  #181  
Old 12-10-2018, 08:52 AM
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I could have sworn that’s about what I said.
Well, it wasn't. You said "They already use part-timers instead of giving a lot of OT to full timers." Overtime is not a benefit. If you were concerned about fiscal responsibility, you would either support hiring more full time cops if proper service demands it or using part-timers to plug occasional holes otherwise. You wouldn't want them building in overtime pay into standard operating procedure.

But yeah, this is a hijack so I'll stop.
  #182  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:03 AM
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Like, just to make things clear, I could almost understand if it was something like abortion. If the governor had the ability to make abortion legal or illegal, the power grab would make some sense - abortion has always been a big deal for republicans, and throwing democratic norms under the bus to prevent what you see as an ongoing multidecadal holocaust (assuming for the moment that republicans are being honest about how they see abortion) would make some sense. Bad for democracy, but sometimes the ends justify the means, at least in certain people's eyes. Similarly, I could see myself throwing democratic norms under the bus for the sake of upholding basic human rights. It wouldn't be good for democracy, but it is at least conceivable that the ends could justify the means.

But... this ain't that. Here's one thing the bill passed does:
- Give the legislature more power over the boards of certain commissions, like the Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation (WEDC), the state’s jobs-focused agency, which has come under a lot of scrutiny for giving the Taiwanese company Foxconn Technology Group $3 billion in tax breaks in exchange for their $10 billion factory — an investment that even the state’s Legislative Bureau said the state wouldn’t bring returns until after 2043. Evers said he wanted to get rid of WEDC altogether, as it has garnered a reputation for falling short of its jobs promise.
This is not some life-or-death struggle by any stretch of the imagination. The republicans are saying "to hell with democratic norms" to preserve their control over a government institution designed to help pick winners and losers. They are pulling an antidemocratic power grab in defense of crony capitalism. And it's not like the WEDC is some shining example of a well-run agency; it's a huge mess, despite Walker and the republican party having complete control over it.

Here's another item on the agenda:

- Limit Evers’s abilities to change the state’s work requirement laws around food stamps and health care, giving the legislature oversight over any federal waivers the state has received. Walker pushed for Medicaid work requirement waivers and waivers to drug test food stamp recipients.
Oh yeah, that looks like an important human rights issue. Make sure that they can't make it easier to get on your state's welfare programs - this was totally worth an antidemocratic power grab.

What this tells us is that the republicans in Wisconsin either don't understand that this is an assault on democracy or their attachment to democratic norms is virtually nonexistent.

This is the direction the republican party is and has been going for quite some time. Since at least 2010, with REDMAP, winning and power has been more important than the will of the people. This is just the natural next step. This path leads to a very, very dark place.
And the above is why I take issue with the Frum quote.

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I'm becoming more and more convinced that David Frum is right:
Quote:
If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.
Insofar as his quote pertains to the Republican Party, they have both rejected democracy AND abandoned conservatism. They are now far-right radicals.

And you can’t be a radical and a conservative at the same time. Language may evolve, but it doesn’t evolve into gibberish.

Thus endeth the language lesson for the day. Please join me in reciting the Prescriptivists’ Creed.
  #183  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:19 AM
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What if the Wisconsin Republicans think that what the incoming governor promises to do is BAD, and WRONG and EVIL?

Its wrong regardless of who does it.
They are WRONG to think that. Their wrongness arises from the fact that they are Republicans.
  #184  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Thus endeth the language lesson for the day. Please join me in reciting the Prescriptivists’ Creed.
[Jackie Gleason voice]
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  #185  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:31 AM
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And the above is why I take issue with the Frum quote.


Insofar as his quote pertains to the Republican Party, they have both rejected democracy AND abandoned conservatism. They are now far-right radicals.

And you can’t be a radical and a conservative at the same time. Language may evolve, but it doesn’t evolve into gibberish.

Thus endeth the language lesson for the day. Please join me in reciting the Prescriptivists’ Creed.
I am not going to go back and search out the the Frum quote to read it in the context of whatever else he may have said then. But since I can't imagine he was talking about conservatism in any other context than how it is practiced today by Republicans in a democracy (okay, not exactly a democracy...), is it not fair to assume that Frum believes that if they abandon democracy, they are by definition also abandoning conservatism?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 12-10-2018 at 10:32 AM.
  #186  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:16 PM
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And you can’t be a radical and a conservative at the same time.
Of course you can. The Nazis were, the Falangists were, the Third Position is... it's not the most common political position, but radical conservatism (also known as reactionary politics) isn't exactly unknown.
  #187  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:36 PM
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No. “Conservative” doesn’t mean “right-wing”; it means “careful, cautious, measured.”
  #188  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:53 PM
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No. “Conservative” doesn’t mean “right-wing”; it means “careful, cautious, measured.”
It does mean those things. It can also mean a member of the Conservative Party of Great Britain, or a member of a similar party (I'm going for US Republicans here, obviously.) Surely that is how From meant it, right?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 12-10-2018 at 12:54 PM. Reason: typo
  #189  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:30 PM
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No. “Conservative” doesn’t mean “right-wing”
It has since the French Revolution, which is the period during which we defined what "Right-Wing" even means in a political context.
  #190  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:02 PM
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I think we should start talking about police overtime again.
  #191  
Old 12-14-2018, 01:05 PM
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Walker signed them into law.
  #192  
Old 12-14-2018, 01:11 PM
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Well, knock me over with a feather. Who'd'a thunk it?
  #193  
Old 12-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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Oh, and since the same shit's going on in Michigan (where it seems to be getting less play, damned if I know why), here's a scorecard for the MI lame duck session so far.
  #194  
Old 12-14-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
He was so afraid of protests in the state capital, he signed it in a different city.

Pathetic.
  #195  
Old 12-16-2018, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
he signed it in a different city.

You prefer he sign it in a motel room in Illinois?

Come to think it, that would have been the cherry on top of the Republicans fuck you sundae.

Last edited by pkbites; 12-16-2018 at 11:48 PM.
  #196  
Old 12-17-2018, 09:04 AM
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Are you saying that moves made by Democrats with the purpose of increasing the visibility of their actions are equivalent to moves made by Republicans with the purpose of decreasing the visibility of their actions?

And Republicans really need to learn that there's more to governing than just eating a bunch of "fuck you sundaes". The difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Democrats want to make things better for everyone, and don't care that that incidentally makes thing better for Republicans as well, while Republicans want to make things worse for Democrats, and don't care that that incidentally makes things worse for everyone.
  #197  
Old 12-17-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Democrats want to make things better for everyone, and don't care that that incidentally makes thing better for Republicans as well, while Republicans want to make things worse for Democrats, and don't care that that incidentally makes things worse for everyone.
Nah.
  #198  
Old 12-17-2018, 01:52 PM
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Says the guy who, two posts before, was talking about "fuck you sundaes".
  #199  
Old 03-21-2019, 12:51 PM
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An update:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...r-judge-rules/
Quote:
But Dane County Circuit Court judge Richard Niess ruled that the lame-duck session itself violated the law and invalidated the actions of the lame-duck legislature.  Walker, Niess found, did not formally call the session, nor did the legislature pass a statute authorizing it, as required by the state constitution.“The legislature did not lawfully meet,” Niess ruled in response to a lawsuit filed by the Wisconsin League of women Voters.
So apparently nothing they did in that "session" counts.
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Last edited by davidm; 03-21-2019 at 12:51 PM.
  #200  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
An update:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...r-judge-rules/

So apparently nothing they did in that "session" counts.
The "stacked" Wisconsin Supreme Court is yet to be heard from.
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