Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:07 PM
JBGUSA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New York City area
Posts: 290

Racism, Kate Smith & School Brawls - Which is More Detrimental to Urban Youth?


This past week featured two unrelated event, both relating to issues concerning urban youth, and perceived racial slights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKWjGIlSU9o


Kate Smith's racist lyrics cause her removal from baseball games

Excerpt:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramapo News Article
Kate Smith, a famous singer who was best known for her rendition of Irving Berlin’s “God Bless America,” had her statue removed by the Philadelphia Flyers after racist lyrics were found in some of her songs.***************

Some Americans are angry with the decision to remove her completely because they feel it is disrespectful to not only veterans, but all Americans. Anyone who sacrifices their life to keep this country safe should not be disrespected by anything that takes a strike at tradition and patriotism
One wonders, what are the real problems plaguing urban youth: 1) the fact that a famous singer sang other songs that would not be played today; or 2) wild brawls that detract from any semblance of education? The problem with "G-d Bless America" is that Kate Smith also sang "That's Why Darkies Were Born."

Now, keep in mind, Kate Smith did not write either one. Israel Beilin a/k/a Irving Berlin wrote "G-d Bless America." Paul Robeson, a black singer who immortalized, among other songs "Old Man River" and who fled the U.S. because of McCarthyism sang "That's Why Darkies Were Born." Maybe we need to ban all songs that Paul Robeson ever sang. That takes down "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" and Nobody Knows the Troubles I've Seen." And while we're at it, Aretha Franklin, Miriam Anderson and Mahalia Jackson would also have their songs stricken because those singers sang the now-offensive spirituals.

It goes on.

Last edited by JBGUSA; 05-04-2019 at 04:08 PM.
  #2  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:15 PM
Taber is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,000
Would keeping the statue up have prevented the brawl? I don't see any reason to compare the two completely unrelated events.
  #3  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:21 PM
Chingon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: the hypersphere
Posts: 475
Makes you think.
  #4  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:22 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
Makes you think.
Does "What the hell is the OP about?" count as thinking?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-04-2019 at 04:22 PM.
  #5  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:27 PM
JBGUSA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New York City area
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taber View Post
Would keeping the statue up have prevented the brawl? I don't see any reason to compare the two completely unrelated events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Does "What the hell is the OP about?" count as thinking?
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights. Kate Smith is not the cause of the brawl. She sang songs sung by notable black singers that would not be written for public consumption today. Why are we looking for statues to remove rather than concentrating students on actual work?

Last edited by JBGUSA; 05-04-2019 at 04:28 PM.
  #6  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:30 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights. Kate Smith is not the cause of the brawl. She sang songs sung by notable black singers that would not be written for public consumption today. Why are we looking for statues to remove rather than concentrating students on actual work?
Why not do both?
  #7  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:30 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 33,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights.
Do you have any evidence that the "minority community" is ignoring violence? Or any reason to believe that being critical of a singer somehow takes anything away from efforts to reduce violence?
  #8  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:31 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights. Kate Smith is not the cause of the brawl. She sang songs sung by notable black singers that would not be written for public consumption today. Why are we looking for statues to remove rather than concentrating students on actual work?
I know that most people can do more than one thing at a time. Maybe you think the minority community cannot?
  #9  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:44 PM
Two Many Cats is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights. Kate Smith is not the cause of the brawl. She sang songs sung by notable black singers that would not be written for public consumption today.
It would be interesting to know whether the people demanding Kate Smith be banned from baseball games were black or white.

There's a certain type of white folks who like to prove how aware they are of racial injustice. They are rarer than Trump supporters would have you believe, but they are there. And they are making things harder when it comes to attaining real racial equality.
  #10  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:09 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,761
I recognize the OP's attempt to find a hypocrisy gotcha, but the two events aren't closely enough connected (or connected at all, really) to pull it off.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #11  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:12 PM
nightshadea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 5,134
well, apparently enough people weren't/arent "blessed" enough to stop either the brawls or racism ...
  #12  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:23 PM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 24,160
I fail to see the connection between the events described in the OP and young people living in cities.
  #13  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:28 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
I fail to see the connection between the events described in the OP and young people living in cities.
You're right, the OP has hypocritically denied the problems of RURAL youth! For shame!
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #14  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:43 PM
Strassia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,599
Don't you see? Some black people done where did something bad. Anyone who ever said anything about reducing racism must completely switch focus to this.

After all, while it is true that when a white person does something wring that is only a personal failing, minorities must all be perfect before the deserve equal treatment.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
  #15  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:44 PM
JBGUSA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New York City area
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Do you have any evidence that the "minority community" is ignoring violence? Or any reason to believe that being critical of a singer somehow takes anything away from efforts to reduce violence?
Did you watch the video?
  #16  
Old 05-04-2019, 05:56 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 25,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
The question is why the minority community is focusing on very remote slights. Kate Smith is not the cause of the brawl. She sang songs sung by notable black singers that would not be written for public consumption today. Why are we looking for statues to remove rather than concentrating students on actual work?
Why are you posting here instead of curing America's problems?

Clearly people in the statue removal business aren't the experts in stopping street fights. But you seem to lay claim that you know how to fix America, and yet you're wasting your time here.

Shame on you. Just leave those poor statue removers to do their job, and stop blaming them for things they have nothing to do with. They're just trying to make a living, and here you are making a scapegoat out of them.
  #17  
Old 05-04-2019, 06:02 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 33,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
Did you watch the video?
Yes. Care to answer my question?
  #18  
Old 05-04-2019, 06:04 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 25,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
Did you watch the video?
By the way, gentle readers, the fight on YouTube occurred 105 miles away from the location of the Kate Smith statue, leading to one obvious question:

What in holy fucking hell does the OP think one thing has to do with another? I mean, what the hell?
  #19  
Old 05-04-2019, 06:05 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
Did you watch the video?
I did!

So now you can maybe answer a question about the possibility of doing multiple things. Like, if someone asks me whether we should have cops or firefighters, I say wait; is there a reason we cant have both? Because I want both, and also paramedics and teachers; and, near as I can tell, we can have all of that up and running.

Can we, in your opinion, address both of the issues you mentioned in the OP, and also address a third thing and possibly a fourth?
  #20  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:17 PM
nightshadea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 5,134
well because you see the evil atheistic godless liburls are picking on one of the saints of patriotic godlly Americana but yet haven't solved other problems in the world there wasting their time ......

Last edited by nightshadea; 05-04-2019 at 07:18 PM.
  #21  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:31 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,359
Yknow, its possible the OP has a point. I mean, here we are, hoping the OP will reply to a reasonable question about whether folks can manage to do two things; and maybe hes on to something, in that he cant bring himself to do that one thing.
  #22  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:36 PM
kayT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,059
Does this mean I don't have to hear G*d Bless America at the ball games any more and can go back to enjoying Take Me Out To The Ballgame? If I never again have to see idiots putting their hands on their hearts for G*d Bless America it will make up for idiots tearing down statues since I don't have to see that every time I watch a ball game.
  #23  
Old 05-05-2019, 08:58 AM
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 31,431
I'm pretty sure you could prevent urban youth from congregating at convenience stores and other such places by broadcasting Kate Smith's Greatest Hits over the loudspeakers.
  #24  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:14 PM
Larry Borgia's Avatar
Larry Borgia is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 10,496
The brawl appeared to have both black and white fighters, making the OP even more baffling.
  #25  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:32 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Yet again, Titletown
Posts: 22,396
IIRC, the OP was big on not removing the statues of Confederate generals as well. It's possible that he just is a big fan of statues.
  #26  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:37 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
IIRC, the OP was big on not removing the statues of Confederate generals as well. It's possible that he just is a big fan of statues.
But how can he argue against removing statues and pursue some second agenda too? Thatd involve him having more than one goal, which I thought he thought was some weird and silly logistical implausibility.
  #27  
Old 05-05-2019, 05:47 PM
JBGUSA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New York City area
Posts: 290
^^^^^^^
I think I agree but not sure I follow.
  #28  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:31 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBGUSA View Post
^^^^^^^
I think I agree but not sure I follow.
You're not even trying.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #29  
Old 05-05-2019, 08:54 PM
JXJohns's Avatar
JXJohns is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Middle of the Midwest
Posts: 2,449
I have to ask, is there a reason we are unable to type out the word God? Especially as is pertains to the title of a song?
  #30  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:23 PM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXJohns View Post
I have to ask, is there a reason we are unable to type out the word God? Especially as is pertains to the title of a song?
"We" are neither castigated nor prohibited from typing the name of the Divine. There are number of people within more conservative groups within Judaism who, showing respect for the Divine, choose to neither utter the Name nor consignin it to paper where it might be insulted by be thrown in the trash. In order to avoid that potential insult, they modify any word that might be a reference to the Name so that the Name, itself, is not subjected to such insult. (Posts could be printed out with the danger of suffering insult, so such words are modified even in on-line communications.)

This practice is their choice and I have never encountered anyone presuming to order Gentiles, (or less conservative Jews), to adhere to the same practice.
The rule is not a topic in this thread and I would encourage anyone who has a question, a challenge, or a complaint about it to open a new thread in the appropriate forum.
  #31  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:37 AM
JXJohns's Avatar
JXJohns is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Middle of the Midwest
Posts: 2,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomndebb View Post
"We" are neither castigated nor prohibited from typing the name of the Divine. There are number of people within more conservative groups within Judaism who, showing respect for the Divine, choose to neither utter the Name nor consignin it to paper where it might be insulted by be thrown in the trash. In order to avoid that potential insult, they modify any word that might be a reference to the Name so that the Name, itself, is not subjected to such insult. (Posts could be printed out with the danger of suffering insult, so such words are modified even in on-line communications.)



This practice is their choice and I have never encountered anyone presuming to order Gentiles, (or less conservative Jews), to adhere to the same practice.

The rule is not a topic in this thread and I would encourage anyone who has a question, a challenge, or a complaint about it to open a new thread in the appropriate forum.
Ignorance faught. No offense intended.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
  #32  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:40 AM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,863
I can't really see the relationship between the two points made by the OP, but anyway :

If you remove statues of people of past generations who were racist, you might as well start by removing those of Washington and pretty much all your founding fathers. I didn't read the lyrics of this song, but I would bet that they don't rise to the level of racism expressed in their writings by your main national heroes.

I'm generally all for removing statues of people who actively opposed progress, or whose claim to fame can't really be untied from their hateful actions (and even of that I'm not so sure because a lot of famous people have done a lot of bad things, and could easily be hated instead of honored if we focused on that) but at some point you have to accept that this has to be ignored or to apply damnatio memoriae to pretty much everybody born before 1900 or even later (and since values change, we can expect that the same treatment will be applied in 2119 to those born before 2000 because they condoned killing animals to eat them, or whatever else will be the big moral issue at that time).
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #33  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:58 AM
Unreconstructed Man is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 103
Never heard of Kate Smith before this thread but I googled her and, apparently, she had black guests on her radio show back when the NHL didn’t even allow black players. If they want to be consistent, maybe the Flyers should shut themselves down?
  #34  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:49 AM
excavating (for a mind) is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In a canyon, in a cavern
Posts: 1,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Borgia View Post
The brawl appeared to have both black and white fighters, making the OP even more baffling.
Even more baffling is that the Philadelphia Flyers don't even play baseball. I can see why baseball cleats would be helpful when trying to run on an ice rink, but trying to shag a fly in the outfield wearing ice skates?
  #35  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:16 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 17,564
It seems to me to be another example of digging up some very old stuff and applying today's standards to it.

What's next? We're going to throw out the Bible because St. Peter condoned slavery by telling slaves to obey their masters? (1 Peter 2:18)
  #36  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:43 AM
DrFidelius's Avatar
DrFidelius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 12,424
I'm still wondering why it is any of my business what a private company does with a decorative statue on their property.
__________________
The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not represent any other persons, organizations, spirits, thinking machines, hive minds or other sentient beings on this world or any adjacent dimensions in the multiverse.
  #37  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:42 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,366
I want to address a point in the OP that I've heard from others: "Hey, black people did it, too!" Black artists of that era were constrained to the stereotypes preferred by white audiences and white entertainment industry execs. The OP cited Paul Robeson, so let's use him as an example. Robeson began as an attorney but quit the business because of racism, turned to theater:

Quote:
From his father, Robeson learned that his exceptional talents carried a responsibility to represent his race. Eventually he chose a career as a performer, believing that it provided the greatest opportunities for personal recognition and success as well as a platform for the presentation of African American culture and history. A performer, however, does not have complete control over his public image. With few exceptions, Robeson was unable to escape the stereotypes imposed upon him as an African American actor by the theater and film industries. Most of the characters he played were repetitions of traditional images of black people and not, as Robeson had hoped, roles that advanced the cause of his race.
Paul Robeson and any other Black performer who acted or sang in stereotypical caricature had little choice. And Robeson actively fought for roles that depicted African-American culture more realistically.

Whether or not Smith's statue should have been removed, let's not pose black performances as equivalent to those of whites of the era. They are not.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017