Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:12 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
Fair enough. Thank you for apologizing. That wasn't all I was alluding to. Someone who gives up their body in exchange for money usually has some affliction. It isn't merely brightness, but mental aptitude in its entire scope. There is something developmentally wrong there.
Why exactly would giving one's body in exchange of money require a mental affliction? Why would it be necessarily worst than, say, extracting coal, or cleaning office toilets 3-7 am and then again 7-11 pm?
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #52  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:04 PM
SOJA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
By extension, does this include people who play a sport professionally, which carries a high likelihood of causing them permanent harm to their bodies (e.g., football, hockey, etc.)?
That's a ridiculous notion. You could go outside and walk and sprain or break something if you take a misstep. You're also implying all athletes endure injuries that cause permanent harm.

An athlete, barring any CTE trauma, is fully capable of understanding the risks. They enter a legal contract with a team or league to be paid to play. These contracts also include guaranteed minimums and clauses that pay out if the contract is terminated for X reasons over Y reasons. Athletes often have access to some of the world's best medical care not paid by them, but their team or league. They eat some of the best food possible. They train at world renown centers.

By your own notion, drivers who drive every day fall under the same argument you posed because they take a risk of traveling 65 mph in a metal box.
  #53  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:06 PM
SOJA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Why exactly would giving one's body in exchange of money require a mental affliction? Why would it be necessarily worst than, say, extracting coal, or cleaning office toilets 3-7 am and then again 7-11 pm?
Why not compare them to politicians or astronauts? Do you want to present any logical argument or reach from your ass?
  #54  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:09 PM
SOJA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
I'm inclined to say prostitutes are treated like nonpersons because they were never afforded the legal protection as employees. Prostitutes don't unionize, they don't have minimum wages, they can't force pimps to abide by OSHA, they probably don't get health insurance, worker's comp, 401k, etc... Lack of protections only amplifies the power differential between a woman and a man who literally sells the woman's body for sex.

Also some prostitutes have children, and I dare say all such are single mothers. If a prostitute sues their pimp (eg: abuse), there's a perceived risk that she goes to jail for the crimes of ... prostitution and tax evasion. The court can definitely take the kid away.

All of this before factoring in drugs.

~Max
This pretty much. Not to mention that barring financial struggle, few will go into prostitution. I'd even argue professional pornographers have deep rooted issues. Not mental illness, but something that caused them to do that. I recall a case where a gifted Harvard student chose to engage in porn when she came from an upper middle class or upper class family and seemed fairly normal. Of all the things to do, especially with a top tier education, you chose one of the lowest "professions"?
  #55  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:14 PM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
This pretty much. Not to mention that barring financial struggle, few will go into prostitution. I'd even argue professional pornographers have deep rooted issues. Not mental illness, but something that caused them to do that. I recall a case where a gifted Harvard student chose to engage in porn when she came from an upper middle class or upper class family and seemed fairly normal. Of all the things to do, especially with a top tier education, you chose one of the lowest "professions"?
I'm still curious why you'd think that I, as a man, accepting payment for sleeping with women means I have some sort of mental issue?

Perhaps you can explain what mental issue I have that allows me to accept money for doing something that I would gladly do for free?

Last edited by manson1972; 05-07-2019 at 09:14 PM.
  #56  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:14 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 45,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
That's a ridiculous notion. You could go outside and walk and sprain or break something if you take a misstep. You're also implying all athletes endure injuries that cause permanent harm.

An athlete, barring any CTE trauma, is fully capable of understanding the risks. They enter a legal contract with a team or league to be paid to play. These contracts also include guaranteed minimums and clauses that pay out if the contract is terminated for X reasons over Y reasons. Athletes often have access to some of the world's best medical care not paid by them, but their team or league. They eat some of the best food possible. They train at world renown centers.
Lots of athletes don't have the benefits of the best doctors. Even without CTE lots of athletes are pretty banged up by the end of their careers. Check out the news of injuries and surgeries which are a standard part of their life.
But you clearly think male athletes are smart enough to evaluate these risks and female prostitutes aren't. In a legal system they'd have contracts also, have a union (like New Zealand) and regulated hours and medical care.
In the current situation they can't call the cops when abused. That won't be true under legalization.
Plus, you can require drug tests and treatment.
I'm all for lowering the boom for pimps and johns who go outside the legal system. And transitioning the women to become legal. But right now unless they are in certain counties of Nevada, they can't be legal.
  #57  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:41 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
Why not compare them to politicians or astronauts? Do you want to present any logical argument or reach from your ass?

I compare them to difficult, unpleasant, not valued, poorly paid and health-threatening jobs for obvious reasons. Why makes you (or whoever stated that you needed to have a mental affliction to sell sex, can't remember if it was you) think that one needs to be mentally deficient to sell sex but not to accept such extremely bad jobs?

I could most certainly compare them to astronauts or politicians. I've seen many sex workers blogs on Tumblr, when it used to be a thing, that clearly hadn't been created by mentally deficient people. I would equate some of the cam-girls there to artists doubling as businesswomen with a knack for promotion. And very obviously hard working : you don't produce dozens of high quality videos that people want to watch by being a lazy idiot. I'm sure that not all prostitutes or other sex workers are the brightest bulb on the porch, but some are definitely vastly above average in the brain department. And somehow decided not to pick another job.

And regarding the lack of logical argument : I'm still waiting for any logical explanation of your belief that they must have a mental problem. You make an assertion based on...nothing, as far as I can tell...and expect others to present sound arguments to contradict it. I don't see the need to present any argument, because you've failed to justify your belief in any way. I'm trying to make *you* advance any kind of argument in support of your position
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 05-07-2019 at 11:45 PM.
  #58  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:53 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
This pretty much. Not to mention that barring financial struggle, few will go into prostitution.
Are you forgetting young women who fund their education this way? They aren't mythical, we even used to have one on this board (maybe still present, for all I know)


Quote:
Of all the things to do, especially with a top tier education, you chose one of the lowest "professions"?
It's one of the lowest profession only because people like you insist that it is so. There's no reason that it should be considered lower, than, say, being a model, who also sell their bodies, although in a different way.

And so, how do *you* explain that someone who has other options would still pick this activity? Despite having to face the loathing coming from people like you?
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #59  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:37 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,127
..."Why Sex Work will not be legalised in America any time soon, datapoint #1001"

Quote:
Originally Posted by WSB-TV
Two prostitutes have been murdered in the same community – and neighbors are fed up. They say the prostitution still runs rampant and despite years of complaints, nothing’s been done. TODAY AT 5: What we found when we set up undercover cameras. (link: https://2wsb.tv/2Luxs2R) 2wsb.tv/2Luxs2R
(Quoted in full in case WSB-TV deletes the link)

https://twitter.com/wsbtv/status/1126227018767486977

The story, framed around the deaths of two sex-workers, isn't about the murder of the sex-workers but that "nothing is being done about prostitution." Sex-work is talked about in the abstract, both in the article and by many in this very thread.
  #60  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:05 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
In a legal system they'd have contracts also, have a union (like New Zealand) and regulated hours and medical care.
In the current situation they can't call the cops when abused. That won't be true under legalization.
Plus, you can require drug tests and treatment.
I'm all for lowering the boom for pimps and johns who go outside the legal system. And transitioning the women to become legal. But right now unless they are in certain counties of Nevada, they can't be legal.
*snip

This is an issue with legalization. The government will require (as it should) drug tests, treatment, health inspections, condom use, business licenses, no brothels near schools, churches or residential areas, the payment of income tax and the like which will drive up the price and exclude some women who want to become prostitutes. What does a drug addicted prostitute do under this system?

Nevada is the perfect example. I am told (yes, really I was told ) that these places are out in the middle of nowhere, are insanely expensive, and due to the regulations and the realities of the business model, they only have a certain number of prostitutes. This means, naturally, that only the most beautiful women fill the limited slots (there's a joke in there somewhere) leaving the vast majority of women who want to become prostitutes unemployed in these legal brothels.

Further, the customers will want certain things like cheaper prices, more convenience, a better selection to meet their budget, and blow jobs or intercourse without a condom.

I mean, suppose I am in Vegas and am drunk and horny right now. I'm not going to get a cab for a two hour ride out in the desert and blow most of a paycheck and then a two hour ride back. I am going to look for an illegal hooker, and that is exactly what happens. Vegas is awash in prostitution despite it being legal nearby.

It seems that you still have the illegal market with all of the issues that come along with that while establishing a legal system where the well to do have access to legal prostitution. Doesn't sound like a practical solution.
  #61  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:24 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
*snip

This is an issue with legalization. The government will require (as it should) drug tests, treatment, health inspections, condom use, business licenses, no brothels near schools, churches or residential areas, the payment of income tax and the like which will drive up the price and exclude some women who want to become prostitutes. What does a drug addicted prostitute do under this system?
...do you have any objective data that this is what would happen? As you know its been legal here since 2003. What happened to the pricing and did it drive anyone out of "the system?"

Quote:
Nevada is the perfect example.
Nevada is never the "perfect example."

Quote:
I am told (yes, really I was told ) that these places are out in the middle of nowhere, are insanely expensive, and due to the regulations and the realities of the business model, they only have a certain number of prostitutes. This means, naturally, that only the most beautiful women fill the limited slots (there's a joke in there somewhere) leaving the vast majority of women who want to become prostitutes unemployed in these legal brothels.
Which is why Nevada is a terrible example. Almost nobody advocates for the Nevada system.

Quote:
Further, the customers will want certain things like cheaper prices, more convenience, a better selection to meet their budget, and blow jobs or intercourse without a condom.
In New Zealand finding "cheaper prices", "more convenience", a "better selection to meet their budget" are all things that can be done within the confines of the law. Sex-work without a condom though remains illegal. And nobody is complaining about that.

Quote:
I mean, suppose I am in Vegas and am drunk and horny right now. I'm not going to get a cab for a two hour ride out in the desert and blow most of a paycheck and then a two hour ride back. I am going to look for an illegal hooker, and that is exactly what happens. Vegas is awash in prostitution despite it being legal nearby.
Then don't advocate for stupid implementations of legalization.

Quote:
It seems that you still have the illegal market with all of the issues that come along with that while establishing a legal system where the well to do have access to legal prostitution. Doesn't sound like a practical solution.
It seems that despite my having showed you in a previous thread that there are "more than one way" to implement legalisation, you will continue to frame the issue within a limited framework. Sex work is legal in Nevada because rich men wanted to make more money and convinced local officials to pass ordinance that allowed for legal sex work. In New Zealand sex work is legal because sex-workers decided to fight for their rights, gained support from womens-rights groups, got support from local MP's, and managed to pass legislation through parliament. Nevada laws are problematic precisely because of the motivations for why those laws and ordinances got passed.

So if you really are concerned about "what does a drug addicted prostitute do under this system" then perhaps you should be looking at less problematic implementations of legalisation.
  #62  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:29 PM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
So if you really are concerned about "what does a drug addicted prostitute do under this system" then perhaps you should be looking at less problematic implementations of legalisation.
This is becoming similar to the UHC threads: UHC will never work! Yeah? What about these places where it DOES work? It will never work! (repeated)
  #63  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:33 PM
Paul in Qatar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 12,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
Glad to hear that. Prostitution is one of those issues that isn't really going to win you a ton of voters so nobody is really running on it. So it's never going to be legalized unless we talk about it more often.
Why would we want to legalize it?
__________________
800-237-5055
Shrine Hospitals for Children (North America)
Never any fee
Do you know a child in need?
  #64  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:50 PM
Ukulele Ike is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 16,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Actually, I do. But I don't have the power to enact or repeal laws.

You asked why prostitution is illegal. And I answered that question. Don't get snarky because you now realize you meant to ask a different question.
Damn, if I rubbed a lamp and you came out of it, I would be fucking careful how I made my three wishes.
__________________
Uke
  #65  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:52 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
Why would we want to legalize it?
...Georgina Beyer, the worlds first transgender member of parliament and former sex worker had this to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgina Beyer
GEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour—Wairarapa) : I rise to make my contribution to the third reading of this bill, which I support. I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to the members of this Parliament for a considered and varied debate from both sides and both points of view. Along with that, I congratulate supporters of both sides of the argument for their contribution, which expresses a fair view from both sides of the nation. I particularly congratulate and pay great credit to Tim Barnett, who has had the courage and commitment to see this bill through to this most important point.

I support the bill, because, as everybody knows, I have had experience in the sex industry—and I am the only member of this Parliament to have had it. If I had had a law like this to protect me and give me some teeth for redress when I was 16 and 17 years old—even on entering into the sex industry—then I might have been spared the 5 or so years I spent in that industry. Barriers would have been created against people who would coerce those under 18 to enter the sex industry in the first place. I support this bill for all the prostitutes I have ever known who have died before the age of 20 because of the inhumanity and hypocrisy of a society that would not ever give them the chance to redeem whatever circumstances made them arrive in that industry.

This bill provides some of that protection. It provides people like me at that time with some form of redress for the brutalisation that might happen when a client pulls a knife. The horror of that situation is that it could be a life and death one—one does not know—but it would have been nice to know that instead of having to deal out justice afterwards to that person myself, I might have been able to approach the authorities—the police in this case—and say: “I was raped, and, yes, I’m a prostitute, and, no, it was not right that I should have been raped, because I said no, and it was not paid attention to.”

I think of all the people I have known in that area who have suffered because of the hypocrisy of our society, which, on the one hand, can accept prostitution, while, on the other hand, wants to push it under the carpet and keep it in the twilight world that it exists in. We are bringing prostitution reform into the light with some of what is proposed in this bill, and the criminal element does not necessarily like to be standing in the glare of greater public influence over how an industry like this might be conducted within our society. It is about accepting that that occurs, and it is about accepting the fact that the people who work in this industry deserve some human rights. I plead with those members in this House who are wavering right up to the wire, to think, for heaven’s sake, of the people of whom I have just spoken, including myself, who might be spared some of the hideous nature of the way society treats prostitutes—because that is here with us.

But if one does have fears, this legislation will be reviewed in 5 years to see how it is operating and whether it is effective. If this bill passes tonight, in 5 years we will be able to reassess its worth. That is something that those who are wavering should be comforted by. But to do nothing now would be irresponsible of this Parliament, because the status quo would remain, and that is unacceptable. This is our one chance in perhaps 20 years to do something. Whatever side of the argument we take, I know we all come from a humanitarian point of view, but I beg members to consider the side I am on, and the side many others in this House are on also. It is the side I consider to be right. It does not diminish, in my opinion, the opinions of those who are against this bill, because some valid points have been made, but not to address this issue now, with this possibility, is not right.

I will conclude by saying that right now we have a sex industry, and we have legislation based on an outmoded double standard. Let us change, please, the part we can.
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hans...bill-procedure

(reprinted in full in compliance with the NZ copyright act regarding transcripts from parliament)

People in the sex industry can sue for sexual harassment here: and win. Police and sex workers collaborate to fight sexual assault. It makes all the difference in the world if you are a sex worker. You don't have to worry about being arrested. You don't have to worry about police intimidation, or worry that the police will plant secret cameras at your place of work, record you having sex, and threaten to release that tape under the guise of "the public record."

The question really shouldn't be "Why would we want to legalize it" but "Why wouldn't we want to legalize it?" Can you answer that question?
  #66  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:50 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 45,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Further, the customers will want certain things like cheaper prices, more convenience, a better selection to meet their budget, and blow jobs or intercourse without a condom.

I mean, suppose I am in Vegas and am drunk and horny right now. I'm not going to get a cab for a two hour ride out in the desert and blow most of a paycheck and then a two hour ride back. I am going to look for an illegal hooker, and that is exactly what happens. Vegas is awash in prostitution despite it being legal nearby.

It seems that you still have the illegal market with all of the issues that come along with that while establishing a legal system where the well to do have access to legal prostitution. Doesn't sound like a practical solution.
You said it right there. A 2 hour ride to a brothel is not nearby. Explains the high price also. If prostitution were legal in Vegas, it would be a lot cheaper.
The looks of the women would depend on customer preference and demand. I'm told that not all porn actresses are gorgeous.

But continued illegal prostitution would be a big problem, I agree to that. Continued illegal marijuana growing is still a problem in California even after legalization. Not all the current illegal suppliers are going to go legal and agree to be regulated. It would take more law enforcement resources to start, not less.
Over time I think customers will consider it crazy to take the risk of using illegal dope and prostitution due to the danger of the supply and the chance of getting busted, even if it is a bit more expensive. It will never go away - neither have counterfeit prescription drugs - the but problem should be diminished.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017