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Old 05-13-2019, 06:21 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
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What is Trump hiding in tax returns?


Ties to Russia? Money laundering? His net worth is much lower than he claims? Something else?

Really interested in what Trump fans think on this topic?

My 2 cents : I think it's mainly that he has been losing a lot of money as we already saw from past returns.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:22 PM
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All of that.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:32 PM
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All of the above.

Money laundering. His gross incompetence at business. Tax fraud. Lower net worth than he claims.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:34 PM
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I tend to think at first he did not think he would win so he figured it did not matter if he kept them secret. Then later he figured he better stick with not releasing them.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:38 PM
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Where his money is coming from.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:44 PM
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some of his fans would not care if his money mostly came from brothels and abortion clinics.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:11 PM
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I'm guessing coverup is probably worse than the "crime."
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:14 PM
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I'm guessing coverup is probably worse than the "crime."
I don't think so. I think it's the fact that he's broke and living on fumes. That and money laundering. I think it's much worse than we're imagining.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:14 PM
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That he was telling the government that he was losing hundreds of millions of dollars at the same time that he was telling banks and investors that he had a very healthy portfolio to serve as collateral for their loans and business deals.

In other words, "fraud". Lots and lots of fraud.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:18 PM
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I'm guessing coverup is probably worse than the "crime."
This may very well be. Trump is SO concerned about his great businessman image, not much else seems to matter to him.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:55 PM
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I don't think so. I think it's the fact that he's broke and living on fumes.
But thatís simply embarrassing, not wrongdoing. So covering up that he isnít successful is, IMHO, worse than the ďcrime.Ē

Iím not sure how tax returns would show money laundering. How would you expect that to be shown?
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:05 PM
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Knowing about potential criminal acts, such as tax fraud and money-laundering, will reveal further aspects of Trump's character and therefore his fitness for his job. Perhaps the more important aspect, though, is knowing how Trump's financial activities might be affecting his policy decisions. I think Trump's peculiar relationship with Putin can only be explained by something such as a secret financial agreement to their mutual benefit (to Trump personally through Trump Tower Moscow, and to Russia, since Putin is Russia), debts owed on Russian loans, or else some form of kompromat, which could be knowledge about income streams from dirty money, such as money-laundering.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:14 PM
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Knowing about potential criminal acts, such as tax fraud and money-laundering, will reveal further aspects of Trump's character and therefore his fitness for his job. Perhaps the more important aspect, though, is knowing how Trump's financial activities might be affecting his policy decisions. I think Trump's peculiar relationship with Putin can only be explained by something such as a secret financial agreement to their mutual benefit (to Trump personally through Trump Tower Moscow, and to Russia, since Putin is Russia), debts owed on Russian loans, or else some form of kompromat, which could be knowledge about income streams from dirty money, such as money-laundering.
This, exactly. He's filthy.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:30 PM
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But thatís simply embarrassing, not wrongdoing. So covering up that he isnít successful is, IMHO, worse than the ďcrime.Ē

Iím not sure how tax returns would show money laundering. How would you expect that to be shown?
Well, isn't there a line item for 'money laundering'?

No, he's hiding the fact that he isn't as rich as he'd like people to believe. Doesn't mean he's broke or running on fumes...he isn't. He's rich by any standard. But he's not top tier rich like the heavy hitters in the world. He's second tier rich, with assets at maybe a billion or two, tops (IMHO), and a lot of red on the ledger. And he doesn't want that to become widely known, since his main schtick, both in duping voters and also investors is how rich he is, how successful he is, blah blah blah. As folks will be picking apart his tax returns and digging into them, as well as writing all sort so of articles about any released he's terrified they will get out. It's not to hide Russian loot or money laundering, as those things wouldn't be on his tax returns (unless he's an idiot and the IRS isn't prosecuting obvious crimes these days). He might be doing those things (wouldn't be surprised) but they aren't going to show up on his tax statements.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:30 PM
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This may very well be. Trump is SO concerned about his great businessman image, not much else seems to matter to him.
When he did his comedy central roast he said he didn't mind if people did jokes about him fucking his daughter but jokes about him not actually being rich were off limits.

I think Trump's fragile ego depends on coming across as a brilliant businessman. As the truth comes out that he is a grossly incompetent trust fund baby who lost money in boom times he is going to get more and more irritable.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:59 PM
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I watched an interview with Robert Kiyosaki and he talked about Trump and his tax returns. Kiyosaki says that Trump doesn't pay taxes. Apparently if you create jobs, or food, or water (how does one create water?) you are helping the government so much that they don't make you pay them. He also said, "why should he show his returns?"

So that's what one republican thinks, anyway. His interviewer agreed with him, so I guess two, and then prolly every other conservative as well. I'm assuming Kiyosaki meant that Oranges barely pays any taxes, and not that he doesn't pay any at all.

Which if you're a republican means he is smart and someone to be envied. I have no idea why Oranges wouldn't just say that then, rather than hiding them though. But if you were looking for what his followers think, that's it.

Oranges smart. Me like Oranges.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:10 PM
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I watched an interview with Robert Kiyosaki and he talked about Trump and his tax returns. Kiyosaki says that Trump doesn't pay taxes. Apparently if you create jobs, or food, or water (how does one create water?) you are helping the government so much that they don't make you pay them. He also said, "why should he show his returns?"

So that's what one republican thinks, anyway. His interviewer agreed with him, so I guess two, and then prolly every other conservative as well. I'm assuming Kiyosaki meant that Oranges barely pays any taxes, and not that he doesn't pay any at all.

Which if you're a republican means he is smart and someone to be envied. I have no idea why Oranges wouldn't just say that then, rather than hiding them though. But if you were looking for what his followers think, that's it.

Oranges smart. Me like Oranges.
He probably doesn't pay a lot of taxes...income taxes. And rich people have smart tax people to hide and shelter their money in a variety of ways for other investments and the like. I'm not sure why people are often surprised or shocked by this, as it's kind of been a thing since...well, forever in the US. The tax laws are generally written for and often by special interests of the rich specifically to shelter their money from taxes. But I doubt that he wants to hide his tax returns from people on this score, as most people would just shrug and say 'yeah, what I figured' wrt him not having to pay as much taxes. Recall Buffet saying he pays less (income) tax than his secretary...and his investment taxes are probably pretty low as well. Well, Trump is in a similar boat. Dog bites man.

No, this would only really fly with leftwingers and liberals who would think it shocking or even important. Conservatives and most Trump voters would not care, and those are the only ones Trump would care about them caring. No...it's his net worth I think he wants to muddy the water about. As long as we don't have his tax returns there is still some muddy water to obscure what that is, exactly. It's just a fig leaf at this point, as I've seen plenty of estimates.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:30 AM
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For his personal returns, I think it may just be that he realizes that he owed a scandalously low amount in taxes. And I'm sure he's too cheap to overpay his taxes for political benefit, as the Clintons and Mitt Romney did.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:58 AM
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some of his fans would not care if his money mostly came from brothels and abortion clinics.
Cool. So no problem with his advertising then?

"Come on down to Trump's fun-time abortion clinics... We'll bring out the kid in ya!"
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:14 PM
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Quoth XT:

No, he's hiding the fact that he isn't as rich as he'd like people to believe. Doesn't mean he's broke or running on fumes...he isn't. He's rich by any standard.
He's flat broke and deep in the red, and he's filthy rich. It's an unfortunate peculiarity of our economic system that it's possible to be both at once.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:46 PM
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He's flat broke and deep in the red, and he's filthy rich. It's an unfortunate peculiarity of our economic system that it's possible to be both at once.
His net worth has likely gone up a bit since he became president. But I wonder what his actual net worth was as of 2015 after subtracting debt from assets.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:35 AM
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Big loans, inflated assets, modest annual incomes, little to no charitable giving. The man didn't bankrupt casinos, defraud people looking for an affordable college degree and fail at selling meat online all as tax dodges.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:32 AM
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It's also possible he's not hiding anything specific, and he just likes to pick fights because it plays well with his base. Fighting against the establishment and all that.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:39 AM
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Oh no. He genuinely doesn't want you to know his actual net worth.

Last edited by bobot; 05-17-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:03 AM
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I tend to think at first he did not think he would win so he figured it did not matter if he kept them secret. Then later he figured he better stick with not releasing them.
I tend to agree that this is all it is. He had nothing to gain from releasing his tax returns for a job he never expected to get, and so he came up with the "I'm under a routine audit" excuse that played well enough with Republican voters and left it at that. And after he won, well, who cares at that point, he can just keep on not releasing them.

We've already seen enough of Trump's returns to know that he sucks at business and doesn't pay taxes, and that hasn't hurt him politically (That makes him smart!), so it can't be that he's worried people will find out he's not as rich as he claims. He'll just say he hid his wealth from the government like all smart people do and Republicans will nod along in agreement.

And I've said in another thread that there's not going to be evidence of money laundering, fraud, or Russian interests because none of that tends to show up on tax returns anyway. Tax returns are information that people willingly disclose to the federal government, if there was blatant evidence of crimes he'd already be in jail, so they tend to be as squeaky clean as possible.

No, anyone expecting a bombshell is going to be disappointed. Trump is fighting this because he has no incentive to cave. His voters don't care if he doesn't and he gets nothing from Democrats if he does.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:14 AM
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... so it can't be that he's worried people will find out he's not as rich as he claims. ...
I disagree, and think his fear really is this simple. (But that's just my opinion, how can I know.) Anything else that has come out disclosing his poor business skills has been countered by him as being bullshit, lies and fake news.
Trump is two dimensionally deep, and he's lied about his wealth, and his whole shtick is based on this lie.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:21 AM
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If I have ties to Russia banks (like stock,etc) that would be on my tax return. But maybe a guy like Trump has a way to legally hide those ties.
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:05 PM
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I think a big part of it is that Trump thinks to himself, "I'm a big strong powerful man with good hair and big hands. Why should I tell you peasants anything?"
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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Maybe on some level he is hoping that some Democrat will take the Harry Reid approach and lie about having seen the returns. Doesn't seem to have happened, yet. All we got is The New York Times publishing as shocking new revelations stuff that Trump put into his book.

Or maybe just he is sitting back and watching Democrats try to pass laws to exclude Presidential candidates from the ballot if they don't reveal their returns. Then those laws will be struck down by the Supreme Court (if it gets that far) and Dems will add another layer of egg to their faces.

Rule of thumb: when your enemies are removing their shoes and socks, pointing a pistol at their instep, and saying "Ready...aim..." you don't have to do anything but remind them that the safety is still On.

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Old 05-17-2019, 01:23 PM
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Maybe on some level he is hoping that some Democrat will take the Harry Reid approach and lie about having seen the returns. Doesn't seem to have happened, yet. All we got is The New York Times publishing as shocking new revelations stuff that Trump put into his book.
I haven't had the privilege yet to read Trump's entire literary oeuvre. In which book does he (through his ghostwriter) admit to being a billion-dollar loser, and sometimes America's #1 money-losing taxpayer, over a span of many years while he pretended to be a wildly successful, self-made entrepreneur? Frankly, that sounds out of character for Trump, but I'll defer to your scholarship on the matter...
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:43 PM
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I think you are mistaking what The New York Times said about the book with the book itself. Much the same thing as with Harry Reid - a lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on. The important thing is to control the narrative, if you can.

It works less well with Trump, because he doesn't care. There's been enough fake news about him that even another Harry Reid lie wouldn't trigger anything new.

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Old 05-17-2019, 02:25 PM
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remember the money he lost was almost certainly money he got from other people, not his own money. Maybe a small part of it was his.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:42 PM
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... a lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on.
Trump does indeed like to travel. You got us there.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:23 PM
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I think a big part of it is that Trump thinks to himself, "I'm a big strong powerful man with good hair and big hands. Why should I tell you peasants anything?"
That could be part of it. But I think it's more likely about how, in the Trumpian worldview, there's no real concept of legal or illegal. Legal is whatever you get away with. Illegal is whatever your haters can use against you. A person like that quickly learns to hide everything and lie about whatever isn't hidden.

I doubt he even knows what he's hiding or feels ashamed about it. He just knows information about himself can be used about him, so he hides everything.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:32 PM
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duplicate

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 05-17-2019 at 03:32 PM.
  #36  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:55 PM
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For all their faults, the Republicans would already have the tax returns by now if the shoe were on the other foot.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:52 PM
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It works less well with Trump, because he doesn't care. There's been enough fake news about him that even another Harry Reid lie wouldn't trigger anything new.
Are you using "fake news" in the sense that Trump uses it, i.e., to mean something that is true but unflattering to him...Or, are you using it in some other sense?
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