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  #201  
Old 07-10-2015, 04:36 AM
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Hard to damage the Republican brand when he's not even a nominee for anything and isn't likely to be a nominee for anything. It's like saying Al Sharpton damages the Democratic brand.
Remember that time Al Sharpton held the national lead over a dozen other Democrats? Me neither.

It's entertaining to watch you construct your own narratives around the various races - Sanders is having some marginal success and this somehow means he's going to scupper Clinton's chances, but Trump solidly leading a field of over a dozen "serious" candidates can be handwaved away.
  #202  
Old 07-10-2015, 05:26 AM
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Trump's disapproval is 61%. That's not a viable candidate for anything.
  #203  
Old 07-10-2015, 06:16 AM
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I had such a strange conversation with a co-worker yesterday. The topic of Trump came up and Lee, my co-worker, expressed some approval for Trump and his stance on illegal immigrants.

Lee argued that legal immigration is easy and so there is no excuse for being illegal. I argued that legal immigration is not easy and in fact is quite difficult. We talked for a few minutes then went back to work.

A couple hours later, we were chatting again and he brings up his wife, who I know is Mexican. So I asked him if she was born in the US or Mexico and he says Mexico. I asked how she came to America and he says illegally. She was deported once and then returned, again illegally.

Then he spends the next few minutes telling me how difficult and expensive it was for the two of them to get her to a legal status.

I just can't wrap my head around it.
  #204  
Old 07-10-2015, 08:49 AM
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The good news is that Trump is making Ben Carson seem reasonable and thoughtful.
And we both know Carson is no such thing, so how is that good news?
  #205  
Old 07-10-2015, 08:58 AM
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Trump's disapproval is 61%. That's not a viable candidate for anything.
And yet he's in the top 2 for your party's nomination. How's that happenin'?
  #206  
Old 07-10-2015, 09:02 AM
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When you're polling under 20%, top 2 doesn't mean a whole lot. You need a majority of delegates to win.
  #207  
Old 07-10-2015, 09:11 AM
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But he's taking up space that could be used for a less insane candidate. It certainly looks like he's going to bump someone else off the Fox debate podium, and when he's on that podium he's going to suck up all the oxygen in the room.

Now maybe this will be a good thing for the GOP - Trump can act as the insane stalking horse, allowing the less-crazy-but-still-batshit pronouncements from other candidates to fly under the radar until much closer to the election. But even if that's true, it would be hard to argue that that's a good outcome for the country. (Also, you need to consider who all those Trumpoids will back when (or if) he drops out - who's the next more crazy person in the race?)

BTW, Kasich is bumping along with 2%. Helluva lot of ground to make up.
  #208  
Old 07-10-2015, 09:18 AM
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But he's taking up space that could be used for a less insane candidate. It certainly looks like he's going to bump someone else off the Fox debate podium, and when he's on that podium he's going to suck up all the oxygen in the room.
Does this less insane candidate exist?
  #209  
Old 07-10-2015, 09:23 AM
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Does this less insane candidate exist?
Schrodinger's candidate
  #210  
Old 07-10-2015, 09:45 AM
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Does this less insane candidate exist?
Bearing in mind that the baseline is "Trump", I would argue that most of the field is less insane. Note that I did not go so far as to say "sane".

Mind you, if Bachmann or Gohmert threw their hat into the ring I'd have to recalibrate.
  #211  
Old 07-10-2015, 10:53 AM
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Donald doesn't know where the president was born. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politi...igrant-workers

The fun never stops.
  #212  
Old 07-10-2015, 11:23 AM
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Anybody remember the year 2012?

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/09/20...al-immigrants/


Back then, The Donald was saying just the opposite of what he's saying now. He used to say that the GOP wasn't nice enough to illegal aliens. Are we supposed to believe he's had a serious change of heart since then?

The guy doesn't have ANY principles, let alone conservative principles. His generous donations to every liberal Democrat under the sun proves that. No, I'm not saying he's "really" a liberal Democrat, either. Just that he's an opportunist who will gladly give money to any politician who can help him out when he needs favors.

And in the end, it doesn't matter, because (I hate to keep telling you this) HE'S NOT RUNNING!

Last edited by astorian; 07-10-2015 at 11:24 AM.
  #213  
Old 07-10-2015, 11:37 AM
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I'm a liberal... I don't tend to agree with Trump's views on issues. I couldn't vote for any other republican, but for some reason if I have the chance to vote for Trump, I would. I don't know why... maybe because I think a Trump presidency would be extremely entertaining and I don't find him that threatening unlike all the other rep candidates. I also find it refreshing, even though I think some of his statements are racist and batshit insane, that he doesn't back down from anyone. I wish we had someone that brazen on the left.
  #214  
Old 07-10-2015, 11:38 AM
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So... you'd like him to casually insult our friends and allies and bomb anywhere he felt like on a whim?
  #215  
Old 07-10-2015, 11:52 AM
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And in the end, it doesn't matter, because (I hate to keep telling you this) HE'S NOT RUNNING!
By definition, he's running because he said he's running. That's all it takes.
  #216  
Old 07-10-2015, 11:59 AM
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By definition, he's running because he said he's running. That's all it takes.
No, actually, it takes quite a bit more than that. He hasn't filed with the FEC, and he hasn't done any of the prep work it takes to run a campaign.
  #217  
Old 07-10-2015, 12:03 PM
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No, actually, it takes quite a bit more than that. He hasn't filed with the FEC, and he hasn't done any of the prep work it takes to run a campaign.
He has filed his initial paperwork with the FEC. As for the rest of it, so what?
  #218  
Old 07-11-2015, 04:39 AM
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His initial reason for running may well have been just his typical bid for attention, but all the approval he is getting might have given him the idea that he should really run.

Bigotry is so ugly. I don't want a bigot to represent me to the world.
  #219  
Old 07-11-2015, 10:46 PM
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...and he hasn't done any of the prep work it takes to run a campaign.
Like it has already been said, so what? The television cameras seem to be so in love with him, he doesn't need to run a campaign. In fact, when you consider that over the last decade he has become a celebrity more than anything else, he is undoubtedly the most recognizable Republican candidate at this point.

What do you think the results would be if random people off the street were shown head shots of each of the declared and undeclared Republican candidates?
I would bet Trump would be the only one 100% of people know by name. With that kind of recognition by the general public what type of campaign does he really need at this point?
Basically only one - the kind that keeps your face on everyone's TV 24/7.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 07-11-2015 at 10:47 PM.
  #220  
Old 07-11-2015, 11:07 PM
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Trump has completely shifted the discussion for the GOP. The other candidates are scrambling to say something, anything, relevant on immigration. Trump is leading that discussion right now.

Trump may be a blow hard but if he can continue to shake up the conversation then that's a good thing. imho The GOP needs to grow some balls and actually talk about issues. Take a stand. Quit trying to kiss everybody's ass and appeal to everyone.

That's what I and so many others loved about Reagan. He was his own man. He didn't give a shit if you agreed with him or not. He spoke the same message year in an year out. Even in the 1970's when he got beat. He never wavered. Eventually the GOP came around to his way of thinking and the rest is history.

Last edited by aceplace57; 07-11-2015 at 11:10 PM.
  #221  
Old 07-12-2015, 04:06 AM
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Trump has completely shifted the discussion for the GOP. The other candidates are scrambling to say something, anything, relevant on immigration. Trump is leading that discussion right now.

Trump may be a blow hard but if he can continue to shake up the conversation then that's a good thing. imho The GOP needs to grow some balls and actually talk about issues. Take a stand. Quit trying to kiss everybody's ass and appeal to everyone.

That's what I and so many others loved about Reagan. He was his own man. He didn't give a shit if you agreed with him or not. He spoke the same message year in an year out. Even in the 1970's when he got beat. He never wavered. Eventually the GOP came around to his way of thinking and the rest is history.
+1
  #222  
Old 07-12-2015, 06:41 AM
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Trump has completely shifted the discussion for the GOP. The other candidates are scrambling to say something, anything, relevant on immigration. Trump is leading that discussion right now.

Trump may be a blow hard but if he can continue to shake up the conversation then that's a good thing. imho The GOP needs to grow some balls and actually talk about issues. Take a stand. Quit trying to kiss everybody's ass and appeal to everyone.
I agree, and I hope that Republicans heed this advice. Please, Republican candidates, be more like Trump.
  #223  
Old 07-12-2015, 06:53 AM
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In terms of straight talk, all candidates should emulate him. That's what the public is demanding and why non-establishment politicians are doing so well right now.
  #224  
Old 07-12-2015, 08:52 AM
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In terms of straight talk, all candidates should emulate him. That's what the public is demanding and why non-establishment politicians are doing so well right now.
'Straight talk' like how the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists? Or are you talking about some other 'straight talk'?
  #225  
Old 07-12-2015, 11:02 AM
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http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/...dependent-run/

Please let this be true. Trump doesn't rule out a 3rd party run if he fails to get the nomination. I doubt he will, but I'm sure his ego would be well fed by doing a 3rd party run.
  #226  
Old 07-12-2015, 11:31 AM
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'Straight talk' like how the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists?
Cite for that "majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists"?
  #227  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:24 PM
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"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
  #228  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:28 PM
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"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
The "They're rapists" is a fabrication.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...atino-hispanic

“[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and their rapists,” the business mogul said.

http://mic.com/articles/120785/best-...ncement-speech

"When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. [...] They are sending people that have lots of problems. They are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs and they are bringing crime and their rapists, and some are good people, and I speak to border guards and they tell us what we are getting."

http://www.latinospost.com/articles/...ugs-crimes.htm

(Note the incorrect quote from trump in the title of this article)

"[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and their rapists," Trump claimed."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaest...nd-immigrants/

Trump also accused Mexico of sending “not the right people” to the U.S. “[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and their rapists,” he said.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-oli...g-spanish-nets

DONALD TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They are not sending you. They are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, their rapists.

etc. etc. etc.
  #229  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:46 PM
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It really tells you almost all you need to know about the GOP that a supporter can link the versions of the quote as above and apparently, sincerely think that this version is significantly less problematic.
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:49 PM
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Will the fate of Donald Trump's campaign rest on the ability of Americans to distinguish between "their" and "they're"? Tune in next time!

I hope everyone reading those transcriptions can see the grammatical issues involved. I have little hope for it, but it's some hope.
  #231  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:02 PM
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To be fair, it's not 100% non-ambiguous whether "they're rapists" or "their rapists" was really what Trump meant. But it hardly matters; both quotes show a reprehensible attitude.

Here's a worthy editorial video from the Washington Post about Trump's opportunist flip-flopping, and it includes the original video with the quote.

I still say Trump is intentionally trying to fan the flames of white fear, in a manner not dissimilar to the anti-segregationist rhetoric of the 1950s and 60s (and, frankly, today.) Supporting exhibit A: as the video points out, Trump's position on immigration was 180 degrees in a different direction not all that long ago. If there was a thoughtful process behind this radical change of heart, as quoted in the video above, there's been no sign of it. Opportunism is the likeliest reason. Whether Trump is genuinely racist is a good question; maybe he actually is not. But the rhetorical appeal he is using, whether "they're" or "their," is intended to appeal to those who fear the loss of a white majority.

Last edited by Knorf; 07-12-2015 at 01:06 PM.
  #232  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:03 PM
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It really tells you almost all you need to know about the GOP that a supporter can link the versions of the quote as above and apparently, sincerely think that this version is significantly less problematic.
It tells you a lot about Democrats that they have to distort what Trump said ("the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists") in order to attack him. Why?
  #233  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:10 PM
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It tells you a lot about Democrats that they have to distort what Trump said ("the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists") in order to attack him. Why?
Your quote represents an interpretation of the implications of what Trump was saying.

If you prefer: Trump is deliberately exaggerating the threat of crime from Mexican immigrants from in order to pander to white fear.
  #234  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:13 PM
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But, by all means, Terr: please do your utmost to defend Trump and his blatantly changed attitudes about immigration, ideally across various social media and loudly in public, not just on the SDMB. Defending Trump's comments is exactly what the GOP needs right now to ensure that "permanent Republican majority," as the party faithful have always dreamed of! Please, do continue.

Last edited by Knorf; 07-12-2015 at 01:14 PM.
  #235  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:13 PM
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Your quote represents an interpretation of the implications of what Trump was saying.
The quote represents a lie about what Trump said. If you want to attack trump, just quote him. You're claiming that what he said is bad enough - so use that. Don't invent things.

Last edited by Terr; 07-12-2015 at 01:14 PM.
  #236  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:15 PM
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The quote represents a lie about what Trump said. If you want to attack trump, just quote him. You're claiming that what he said is bad enough - so use that. Don't invent things.
I didn't do that.

I agree; the quote stands on its own.

ETA: But I do understand (if not quite agree with) the impulse to create various paraphrases of the quote that reveal its implications more transparently. I just don't think it's necessary in this case.

Last edited by Knorf; 07-12-2015 at 01:17 PM.
  #237  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:17 PM
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Note that the quote I provided was from the website of the Wall Street Journal (with the transcription by Federal News Service). His people, in other words.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:31 PM
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I think it's funny that I told someone of the attempt to convince us it's "their" instead of "they're" and the person I was talking to assumed the "their" interpretation was being pushed by someone anti-Trump.
  #239  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:33 PM
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Note that the quote I provided was from the website of the Wall Street Journal (with the transcription by Federal News Service). His people, in other words.
An excellent point.
  #240  
Old 07-12-2015, 02:26 PM
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Here's the video. CNN shows the clip to Trump and he comments. (I stopped watching after viewing Trump's high profile attack on Mexican immigrants).

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06...-intv-erin.cnn

I heard the WSJ version. Specifically I heard, "...They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. ..."

I did NOT hear, "They’re bringing crime and..." I did not hear the word "and" enunciated.

I am curious whether there are other board members here who claim to hear the word "And" in the video. Such an assessment would be useful to file away for future reference. As for mic.com, forbes.com et al, I'm not surprised they messed up the quote. I see that CBS News agrees with the WSJ.
----

In other news, Vox.com discusses whether Trump is trolling the GOP. It's possible, but I think that the absence of full-throated denunciations of Trump's remarks by Republican Presidential candidates is revealing: the GOP has a bigotry problem. I agree that Trump is cut from a different cloth from your typical politician. Trump is blowhard who spouts nonsense that is easy to correct factually. For example, "Native-born Americans are much more likely to be incarcerated than immigrants". Indeed crime in the US has fallen as unauthorized immigration has expanded. What we need is more factually incorrect Republican blowhards who are not afraid to appeal to the craziest parts of the GOP primary electorate. We need this because it demonstrates that it is unacceptable within the GOP to deploy facts against nonsense.

Natural experiments advance scientific knowledge. To win the GOP primary you have to either be crazy or simulate crazy. So far the GOP field is passing this requirement with flying colors.
  #241  
Old 07-12-2015, 02:31 PM
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A note on Forbes.com, via Wikipedia:
Forbes.com uses a "contributor model" in which a wide network of "contributors" writes and publishes articles directly on the website.[24] Contributors are paid based on traffic to their Forbes.com pages; the site has received contributions from over 2,500 individuals, and some contributors have earned over US$100,000, according to the company.[24] Forbes currently allows advertisers to publish blog posts on its website alongside regular editorial content through a program called AdVoice, which accounts for more than 10 percent its digital revenue.[25] Forbes.com also publishes subscription investment newsletters, and an online guide to web sites, Best of the Web.
For future reference, a link to an opinion piece at Forbes.com should not be considered definitive. As seen above, they are not vetted.
  #242  
Old 07-12-2015, 02:44 PM
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Here's the video. CNN shows the clip to Trump and he comments. (I stopped watching after viewing Trump's high profile attack on Mexican immigrants).

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06...-intv-erin.cnn

I heard the WSJ version. Specifically I heard, "...They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. ..."

I did NOT hear, "They’re bringing crime and..." I did not hear the word "and" enunciated.
You know what, I've changed my mind about this. Up thread, I said it was ambiguous whether he meant "they're" or "their" (but that either represented a reprehensible attitude.)

Nope. He said "they're rapists." No "and," not "their."
  #243  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:28 PM
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You know what, I've changed my mind about this.
Of course you did. No bias there whatsoever, right?
  #244  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:28 PM
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It tells you a lot about Democrats that they have to distort what Trump said ("the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists") in order to attack him. Why?
No, because he did say "they're rapists", or at least there's as much reason to believe that he did as to believe that he said "their rapists".
  #245  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:31 PM
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Admittedly I would view the quote from Trump's prepared Presidential announcement speech if he walked it back or clarified that he didn't mean what he said. Or that he was wrong to say what he did. But AFAIK, he hasn't done that in a meaningful way, or in a way that's consistent with observed evidence of US immigration.

Old news: Mexicans bash Trump pinata, call him imbecile.

This is the sort of guy that some Republicans believe is best qualified to carry out US foreign policy.
  #246  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:33 PM
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Terr: Have you viewed the video of Trump's Presidential announcement? Here, I'll provide the link again. It's a CNN piece where they show the offending statement in the beginning. I do not hear the word "and". Do you?
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  #247  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:38 PM
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Terr: Have you viewed the video of Trump's Presidential announcement? Here, I'll provide the link again. It's a CNN piece where they show the offending statement in the beginning. I do not hear the word "and". Do you?
"They've lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us [should be "to us" but I guess he misspoke]. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, their rapists..."

The flow of the sentence rules out "they're rapists". It's "they're bringing this, they're bringing that, that".

But I don't expect to convince you. You will hear what you want to hear.
  #248  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:48 PM
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Ok, then this transcription is accurate then. Terr concedes that the word "And" is missing and that Terr's quotes were incorrect.
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
In terms of pronunciation, "They're", "Their" and "There" are usually indistinguishable.

Here's Terr's interpretation, as I understand it.
When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime, their rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
It doesn't flow very well: a standard oratorical technique uses repetition: They're this, they're that. Is Terr saying a dangling clause was used in these prepared remarks? And what does that last sentence even mean in this presentation?

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 07-12-2015 at 03:52 PM.
  #249  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:50 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
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You're basing your defense on the assumption that Trump would only employ well-crafted parallel sentence structure?
  #250  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:55 PM
Terr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
It doesn't flow very well: a standard oratorical technique uses repetition: They're this, they're that.
It's not "they're this, they're that". It's "they're bringing this, they're bringing this, this.". Flows perfectly well.

It's the structure of "they're bringing this, they're bringing that, they're this" that doesn't flow. But again, you will read it as your biases direct you.

In followup interviews, one of which you linked to, Trump said (about the illegal Mexican immigrants) "Some are rapists, some are killers". Are you going to "interpret" this as "illegal immigrants are rapists and killers" as well?

Last edited by Terr; 07-12-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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