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Old 02-05-2016, 01:20 AM
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Julian Assange (remember him?) update


When we last visited our friend Julian Assange, he was in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, with bobbies out front, waiting to arrest him on a Swedish extradition warrant if he stepped out the door and back into British jurisdiction.

It sounds as if a UN panel is going to rule in a few hours that the four years he's been in the Ecuador embassy is arbitrary detention: Julian Assange is in arbitrary detention, UN panel finds.

I"m trying to get my head around this: there's been nothing stopping him for four years from leaving the Embassy, except his own fear of being arrested and sent to Sweden. But the Swedish and British courts have upheld the original rape investigation in Sweden, and the extradition warrant in Britain, so where's the arbitrariness? He's just avoiding answering legal process that anyone else would have to respond to.

I will be interested in reading the piece from the UN body. It sounds as if it is purely advisory, and the UK and Swedish governments plan to reject the findings.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:08 AM
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And where's the detention? The whole point of the charade at the Ecuadorean embassy is that he's not in the custody of either the UK or Sweden.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 02-05-2016 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:18 AM
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No, he's effectively detained by the threat of immediate arrest (and formal detention) if he leaves the embassy. He's detained just as much as if he were under house arrest.

I don't have any issue with the notion that state action which effectively confines him to the embassy is functionally equivalent to detention. The issue is whether it's arbitrary detention.

Last edited by UDS; 02-05-2016 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:25 AM
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I'd like to know the membership of that panel. It may be alike to when the Human Rights panel being peopled by representatives from Iran and North Korea...
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:40 AM
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Interesting twist in any case.
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Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases
So Sweden can easily ignore the findings, but that would make their big mouth on human rights cases in Africa or China a little awkward next time around ...
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:45 AM
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Wow, I can't believe he's still in there.

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No, he's effectively detained by the threat of immediate arrest (and formal detention) if he leaves the embassy. He's detained just as much as if he were under house arrest.
Surely in all these years they've lightened up on the 24/7 perimeter, no? If they haven't, that's some serious commitment (and seems like kind of a waste of police resources). I bet he could have escaped if he really wanted to but I guess he has some sweet digs in there.
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:46 AM
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Assange pissed off some very powerful people. Unhappily (switching to the vernacular) ain't no UN panel gonna save his sorry ass.
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:52 AM
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... The issue is whether it's arbitrary detention.
I don't think it is. I'm still reading up on this matter, but there seems to be some semantic confusion creeping into the news articles. As far as I can tell the panel on arbitrary detention finds that he has been de facto detained for the past years ... I'm not sure they actually said this detention was arbitrary
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:02 AM
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The issue is whether it's arbitrary detention.
The charges are rotten as hell. If Assange was not a man who members of the US federal government were literally threatening to murder for airing their dirty laundry, whose organisation had been targeted by policies created to suppress various forms of constitutionally protected acts, then I have no doubt that this investigation into what appears to be a couple of consensual sexual relationships, an investigation which was already closed once with the prosecutor saying there was no reason to suspect that Assange had committed rape, would never have been reopened.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:49 AM
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In other news, the UN panel also finds that the Bundy gang were arbitrarily detained in that Federal building in Oregon. They are urging the US Government to apologize.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:59 AM
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I'd like to know the membership of that panel. It may be alike to when the Human Rights panel being peopled by representatives from Iran and North Korea...
Neither of whom have recently invaded other countries on false pretenses or operated a chain of torture centers on three continents.

The question here is more a political one rather then a legal one.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:27 AM
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The interesting question is what this panel expects anyone to do. The UK is obliged to honor a European arrest order, and Sweden has the right to bring charges according to its laws as it sees fit.

Assange says that the UK should give him back his passport and leave him alone. In effect he's saying that the UK should renege on international agreements to which it is a signatory.

The only potential issue I see here is that Sweden may have been pressured into laying bogus charges, perhaps by the US, but that's not what this panel is addressing. The whole thing is bizarre.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:49 AM
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The only potential issue I see here is that Sweden may have been pressured into laying bogus charges, perhaps by the US, but that's not what this panel is addressing. The whole thing is bizarre.
Quite. Why would the US bother to go about it in such a roundabout way, when they could have applied for extradition from the UK while he was still at liberty here (and the extradition treaty with the UK and the UK courts interpreting it are, shall we say, highly unlikely to be less responsive to the US than the equivalent arrangements with Sweden). He's entirely the author of his present situation, and has always had a perfectly simple remedy to hand.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:11 AM
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My guess is Assange found a sympathic ear on someone at the UN panel, who is trying to help as best he can. His detention isn't arbitrary. He's accused of sexual assault, not some mysterious bullshit charge like dishonoring the king's goldfish.

Again, the composition of this UN panel could be instructive here. It's also possible the membership trends toward parts of the world where sexual assault & rape aren't taken very seriously.

And as for the US shipping him off to some black site, if we haven't done that to what's-his-name who leaked the info and fled to Russia, why would we bother over his worthless ass?
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:14 AM
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He's entirely the author of his present situation, and has always had a perfectly simple remedy to hand.
From what I've read, Assange is basically a professional freeloader, living with whoever will take him. He's probably perfectly happy living at the Ecuadorian embassy. Free room. Free food. Free internet access. It would just be nice to be able to go for a walk every now & then.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:43 AM
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Here are the members. Thr Aussie recused herself since Assange is a Australian national. Except for the Ukranian guy, everyone seems to have an extensive background in Human Rights law, the rep from Benin worked on the Rwanda War Crimes Tribunal. Of course, according to Malden Capell and wolfpup, they the only thing that matters is that they are not white European/N Americans.

Last edited by AK84; 02-05-2016 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:49 AM
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AK84, have you been able to find the actual opinion? I've just found a media release from the UN committee.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:00 AM
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... Of course, according to Malden Capell and wolfpup, they the only thing that matters is that they are not white European/N Americans.
WTF is that even supposed to mean? Did you confuse me with someone else? I have no interest whatsoever in who the members of this working group are, nor am I even either agreeing or disagreeing with them. My only question is who they expect is in a position to take any action on their ruling, and what they expect them to do.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:18 AM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean? Did you confuse me with someone else? I have no interest whatsoever in who the members of this working group are, nor am I even either agreeing or disagreeing with them. My only question is who they expect is in a position to take any action on their ruling, and what they expect them to do.
Sorry; I meant Diceman not you.

Northern Piper they have a search function for documents, but its worse then fucking LexisNexis was.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:20 AM
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SNL is going to have to get Bill Hader back for a guest appearance.

Bzzzt-Bzzzt....Hello. It's me. Again. I'm back! Bzzzt-Bzzzt...

Last edited by John Mace; 02-05-2016 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:26 AM
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If Assange is being detained, then so was Homer Simpson when he wouldn't let go of the chocolate in the vending machine.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:33 AM
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From what I've read, Assange is basically a professional freeloader, living with whoever will take him (...)
That would be my assessment too. But this doesn't mean that a) WikiLeaks didn't do a good thing or b) he raped two women c) he didn't rape two women.

Is there some general anti-Assange sentiment on this MB I'm not aware of?
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:33 AM
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The only potential issue I see here is that Sweden may have been pressured into laying bogus charges, perhaps by the US, but that's not what this panel is addressing. The whole thing is bizarre.
I don't see how this would have taken any pressure. Our government would jump for joy at being able to do the US a favor...
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:41 AM
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I don't see how this would have taken any pressure. Our government would jump for joy at being able to do the US a favor...
LOL.
Where do you live?

I live in a country with a government like that, but part of the game is not being found out or at least not let any definite proof come to light.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:59 AM
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I liken Assange to that other upright world citizen, Roman Polanski. Use the system to get bail and then run like a coward when you realize that you might face some time for your crimes.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:59 AM
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Northern Piper they have a search function for documents, but its worse then fucking LexisNexis was.
There's a link to the full decision in this commentary piece.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:01 AM
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The charges are rotten as hell... then I have no doubt that this investigation into what appears to be a couple of consensual sexual relationships
No, the charges are rape, not some weird concoted thing that's hard to comprehend. If there's really nothing to the charges, then he should have responded to the prosecutor instead of fleeing the country. Calling a rape a 'consensual sexual relationship' is common among rape apologists, but ignoring the victim's description of the relationship isn't exactly a valid line of argument.

I don't get what the US even has to do with it - his extradition would be to Sweeden, who's shown no interest in sending him to the US, and the US isn't involved with any of the legal maneuvering. There's a lot more direct stuff the US could be doing if they really wanted to get their hands on him. Leaking government secrets doesn't give you a license to commit lesser crimes, especially crimes against other people, under the guise of 'if you prosecute me, it means you're a tool of the government I leaked secrets from'.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:37 AM
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There's a link to the full decision in this commentary piece.
The gist seems to be that he is being detained because the UK won't let him travel from the Ecuadorian embassy in London to Ecuador itself. It's more than faintly ridiculous.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:51 AM
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LOL.
Where do you live?

I live in a country with a government like that, but part of the game is not being found out or at least not let any definite proof come to light.
Oh! I thought that was clear; I live in Sweden. And yes, definite proof is probably hard to find.
(Of course, Assange may actually be guilty of rape or sexual assault; let's not forget that possibility!)
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:02 PM
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I don't get what the US even has to do with it - his extradition would be to Sweeden, who's shown no interest in sending him to the US, and the US isn't involved with any of the legal maneuvering. There's a lot more direct stuff the US could be doing if they really wanted to get their hands on him. Leaking government secrets doesn't give you a license to commit lesser crimes, especially crimes against other people, under the guise of 'if you prosecute me, it means you're a tool of the government I leaked secrets from'.
The US is just a boogeyman in this case. Assange needs a bad guy (other than himself) to be the secret mastermind of his troubles. We're involved because Assange's story requires us to be.

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The gist seems to be that he is being detained because the UK won't let him travel from the Ecuadorian embassy in London to Ecuador itself. It's more than faintly ridiculous.
Way more than faint. It's pretty silly to claim he's being detained, when in fact he's avoiding detention.

Last edited by Diceman; 02-05-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:09 PM
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The gist seems to be that he is being detained because the UK won't let him travel from the Ecuadorian embassy in London to Ecuador itself. It's more than faintly ridiculous.
Yes, its outright preposterous to basically conclude that someone has a right to declare asylum from criminal investigations in a particular country while physically in that same country.
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:17 PM
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In my view, the Ecuadorians are detaining him by not providing him with a teleporter to leave the UK without having to pass back in to its jurisdiction.
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:55 PM
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Why can't Ecuador provide some kind of "Ecuadorian Caper" like Canada did with those Iranian hostages in 1979?
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:00 PM
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I wouldn't want to be released into Swedish custody either on (assumedly) trumped up charges, considering that the Swedish government has already handed over people illegally for torture to the US.

Also, if I recall the story correctly, he's basically accused of tricking a woman into having unprotected sex by removing his condom during intercourse or something like that. I don't recall there being any violence involved.

So...

a) Wikileaks did an awesome job and jerk or not, Assange is a hero.
b) He might be guilty of some sexual shenanigans, probably nothing too serious.
c) Whether he is or is not, he's smart to stay the hell away from Sweden considering our record
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:23 PM
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Well, shoot, Assange should just go around robbing banks if his "hero" status renders him above the law.
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:35 PM
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I wouldn't want to be released into Swedish custody either on (assumedly) trumped up charges, considering that the Swedish government has already handed over people illegally for torture to the US.
Why assume that they're trumped up? Do you just dismiss rape charges because, hey, boys will be boys?

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I don't recall there being any violence involved.
Violence is not required for a rape to have happened.

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b) He might be guilty of some sexual shenanigans, probably nothing too serious.
So if ask a guy to screw you without a condom, you'd be fine with that and figure it's 'nothing too serious'?
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:22 PM
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I wouldn't want to be released into Swedish custody either on (assumedly) trumped up charges, considering that the Swedish government has already handed over people illegally for torture to the US.

Also, if I recall the story correctly, he's basically accused of tricking a woman into having unprotected sex by removing his condom during intercourse or something like that. I don't recall there being any violence involved.

So...

a) Wikileaks did an awesome job and jerk or not, Assange is a hero.
b) He might be guilty of some sexual shenanigans, probably nothing too serious.
c) Whether he is or is not, he's smart to stay the hell away from Sweden considering our record
It's because Assange is a postmodern who is the on the 69th suprasexual level according to the Inturdgral theory something something where giving a middle finger to the US government outweighs rape and the rest of us are silly moderns and premoderns who actually raise a fuss over that crime, amirite?

It's a pity that Assange-sex criminal and traitor to the West-hasn't yet to be reduced to a smoking hole in the ground on the orders of the President. Hopefully at the least, eugenics legislation in Sweden will be briefly revived to ensure his sterilization and chemical castration.

Last edited by Qin Shi Huangdi; 02-05-2016 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:26 PM
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Why can't Ecuador provide some kind of "Ecuadorian Caper" like Canada did with those Iranian hostages in 1979?
Probably because the Ecuadorians don't really care.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:32 PM
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Why assume that they're trumped up? Do you just dismiss rape charges because, hey, boys will be boys?
Yeah... because I think Assange's charges may be trumped up, I of course dismiss all rape charges. Just as if I were to say "I don't believe person X murdered person Y" that would mean I would dismiss ALL Murder charges...

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Violence is not required for a rape to have happened.
Actually in Sweden either violence, threats or drugs are needed for it to be classified as rape.

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So if ask a guy to screw you without a condom, you'd be fine with that and figure it's 'nothing too serious'?
If you feel attracted to me, there are much better come ons than that. No need to make up hypotheticals.

Last edited by Stoneburg; 02-05-2016 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:34 PM
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Yeah... because I think Assange's charges may be trumped up, I of course dismiss all rape charges. Just as if I were to say "I don't believe person X murdered person Y" that would mean I would dismiss ALL Murder charges...
And your "evidence" for this lies in?

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Actually in Sweden either violence, threats or drugs are needed for it to be classified as rape.
And you think none of those are applicable because...?

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If you feel attracted to me, there are much better come ons than that. No need to make up hypotheticals.
You make Carly "that face" Fiorina look like Elle Fanning in comparison.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:44 PM
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And your "evidence" for this lies in?
Are you asking me for evidence that an alleged crime did NOT happen 4-5 years ago in another city from where I live? Let me go check my magic cabinet...


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And you think none of those are applicable because...?
Because... when it was reported, that was one of the things being reported...? That there was no violence, force or threat involved.


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You make Carly "that face" Fiorina look like Elle Fanning in comparison.
Oh, you're one of those Trump people who like shitting on women for the way they look? Gotcha.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:50 PM
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Yeah... because I think Assange's charges may be trumped up, I of course dismiss all rape charges. Just as if I were to say "I don't believe person X murdered person Y" that would mean I would dismiss ALL Murder charges...
Yeah, he did something that you think was heroic, so he gets a free pass to abuse women. I'm sure you wouldn't dismiss all allegations of nonconsentual sex, just those against someone you like. And going for the 'well, the crime isn't technically classed as rape but as a type of sexual assault' for the defense pretty much speaks for itself.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:55 PM
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Yeah, he did something that you think was heroic, so he gets a free pass to abuse women. I'm sure you wouldn't dismiss all allegations of nonconsentual sex, just those against someone you like. And going for the 'well, the crime isn't technically classed as rape but as a type of sexual assault' for the defense pretty much speaks for itself.
Well I am sure that makes sense for the little character you have invented in your mind to represent me, unfortunately I am a bit more complex than that. For example my brain does not limit me to only two options where one is "ALL GOOD!!" and the other is "ALL BAD!!".

I don't see the fascination with making up stories about what other people believe. This is an internet message board, so you can actually FIND OUT, meaning you don't have to make things up. But if you'd rather have the conversation with a made up person in your own head, I won't stop you. Hope you two have fun.

Last edited by Stoneburg; 02-05-2016 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:03 PM
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All the UN have done here is devalue their influence when they want to apply pressure for the release of somebody who actually has been arbitrarily detained.

Asssage gets a free pass from them which has been and will continue to be laughed at by the two governments directly involved lplus the next guy who really needs there help gets one avenue for that comprehensively devalued. Great job guys.

Sometimes common sense is common. He is avoiding legal process and effectively detaining himself. End of.

As for his comments on the matter - that the "ruling" is somehow "binding" is also a joke. Julian just makes it up as he goes along. I support him overall on the wikileaks thing but, as others have pointed out, that doesn't give him the right to avoid due process when it comes to allegations of sex crimes.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:05 PM
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Are you asking me for evidence that an alleged crime did NOT happen 4-5 years ago in another city from where I live? Let me go check my magic cabinet...
So then let the prosecutors and defense lawyers handle it and get to the bottom of the case.

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Because... when it was reported, that was one of the things being reported...? That there was no violence, force or threat involved.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/201...assange-sweden

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According to her statement she "tried to put on some articles of clothing as it was going too quickly and uncomfortably but Assange ripped them off again". Miss A told police that she didn't want to go any further "but that it was too late to stop Assange as she had gone along with it so far", and so she allowed him to undress her.

According to the statement, Miss A then realised he was trying to have unprotected sex with her. She told police that she had tried a number of times to reach for a condom but Assange had stopped her by holding her arms and pinning her legs. The statement records Miss A describing how Assange then released her arms and agreed to use a condom, but she told the police that at some stage Assange had "done something" with the condom that resulted in it becoming ripped, and ejaculated without withdrawing.
Sounds like force and thread to me.

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Oh, you're one of those Trump people who like shitting on women for the way they look? Gotcha.
Yes and you defend rapists because he can stick a thumb in Uncle Sam's eye.
  #46  
Old 02-05-2016, 03:09 PM
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This is a goddamned joke. He's wanted for a crime, and he's hiding in a place the authorities have no jurisdiction. Nobody is detaining him. He is free to leave any time he pleases. The fact that he would be arrested and deported is his own problem.

By that logic, I could stab my wife, flee to Mexico, and then complain to the UN that I'm not "allowed" to return to the US because the police would persecute me.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:36 PM
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So then let the prosecutors and defense lawyers handle it and get to the bottom of the case.
I’m not sure quite how deluded you are, but just to make it clear, I do not have the power to neither release or prosecute mr Assange. What I am doing is sharing my perspective on a message board, and engaging in pointless back and firths with you (again, and against my better judgement).





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Sounds like force and thread [sic] to me.
Going by that statement I would say the chance of that leading to a rape conviction is fairly minimal. ”She allowed him to undress her”, they had a discussion about condoms etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post

Yes and you defend rapists because he can stick a thumb in Uncle Sam's eye.
You don’t seem able to separate those two things.



But really, this ”conversation” is going nowhere, catch you on the flip side.
  #48  
Old 02-05-2016, 04:07 PM
Little Nemo is offline
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I have a hard time seeing residence in the Ecuadorian embassy as the equivalent of imprisonment. And I think Assange's actions support this view: he's chosen to live in the embassy in order to avoid going to prison.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 02-05-2016 at 04:08 PM.
  #49  
Old 02-05-2016, 04:21 PM
Stoneburg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I have a hard time seeing residence in the Ecuadorian embassy as the equivalent of imprisonment. And I think Assange's actions support this view: he's chosen to live in the embassy in order to avoid going to prison.
That may be the case, but frankly I think he is more afraid of being taken by the CIA than going to a Swedish court. Obviously going to court, especially for a sex crime, is always going to be a Bad Experience (tm), but I suspect the prospect of being whisked away by the CIA is a lot worse. At least that's how I would evaluate it from his perspective.

So the question is then if it's reasonable for him to fear some sort of government action like that. And frankly it is, because Sweden already has a track record of handing over people to the CIA with no questions asked, resulting in torture and death in at least one case.

Option 1: Going to court and *maybe* getting convicted, and if so *possibly* spending time in a Swedish prison (assuming it's considered rape and not something less serious)

Option 2: Being kidnapped by the CIA and transported to an undisclosed location for "enhanced interrogation" or persecuted for espionage in the US.


It's "Option 2" I would be worried about if I was him.
  #50  
Old 02-05-2016, 05:11 PM
notquitekarpov is offline
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I don't we are obliged to protect him for 'worry' by facilitating him fleeing to Ecuador by turning a blind eye to a valid European arrest warrant.

Let him argue the case against his extradition to Sweden in an English court. But his worries, even if legitimate, don't allow him to avoid due legal process - either against a rape charge or requested extradition to be considered by the appropriate forum.

Last edited by notquitekarpov; 02-05-2016 at 05:11 PM.
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