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  #151  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:46 PM
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Even though Hillary actually did win the election
Is this the "She won the popular vote, therefore she won the election" thing still?
  #152  
Old 12-16-2017, 07:36 AM
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I think you're confusing "getting your point" with "agreeing with your point". We get your point; it's just that most of us don't agree with it.
I hope you're right, because I want to be wrong.

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Yes, it's more difficult for woman than a man. But it's a lot more difficult for black person than a white person. And yet we elected a black man, even though (by your logic) the country wasn't ready for that to happen.
I'll thank you not extrapolate my logic. I believe the deep-seated antipathy toward women is more insidious and widespread than the resistance to a black MAN in office.

Obama was not a typical candidate, black or white. He wasn't your run-of-the-mill regular Joe like most of the doofuses in public life. He was a star, a superstar, even. Yeah, he wasn't good at the give-and-take and backroom haggling that is all successful politics. He expected his opposition to play fair, but he encountered racial hatred (I'm lookin' at you, Mitch McConnell). Obama was black. But he was a MAN, so not a candidate for any of those criticisms typically hurled at successful women.

Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love for a strong, smart, charismatic woman to rise up from the ranks, a woman who raised her children, and still managed a successful career AND a successful marriage. Who can write a book or a speech and still bake killer chocolate chip cookies. Who will not be accused of being shrill, uppity, unfeminine, a ball-buster, subject to hormonal fluctuations that make her unstable. Who will not be criticized for being too concerned with fashion (She wears expensive designer dresses!) or too frumpy (She always wears pants--when are we going to see her in a dress!)). Who won't be seen as too sexy (or too sexless). And blahblahblah endlessly with pointed barbs that men are not subject to.

Hillary hit all of those hot buttons. Any woman prominent in public life is going to hit a lot of them. Men are not scored on any of them.


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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Is this the "She won the popular vote, therefore she won the election" thing still?
Facts don't just go away because you don't like them.

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 12-16-2017 at 07:37 AM.
  #153  
Old 12-16-2017, 10:28 AM
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II'll thank you not extrapolate my logic.
Just to be clear, is it your contention that "extrapolating a poster's logic" is not part of the debate process?

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I believe the deep-seated antipathy toward women is more insidious and widespread than the resistance to a black MAN in office.
There have been 39 women elected as governors in the US. There have been 4 black governors elected. The facts don't seem to support your belief.

Last edited by John Mace; 12-16-2017 at 10:30 AM.
  #154  
Old 12-16-2017, 10:47 AM
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And, to be rigorously fair, we should note that about 50% of the folks in the US are women, while only about 12% are black. So, if we adjust the numbers accordingly, that would put an adjusted number of black governs at 17 (rounding up). Still, less than half the number of women governors.

Last edited by John Mace; 12-16-2017 at 10:47 AM.
  #155  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:21 AM
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Just to be clear, is it your contention that "extrapolating a poster's logic" is not part of the debate process?
Beside the point. Not interested in discussing your take on the rules of debate.

I believe the obstacles to electing a woman president are not only vastly different from, but vastly greater than the obstacles to electing a black man president. Do you think they are identical and interchangeable?


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There have been 39 women elected as governors in the US. There have been 4 black governors elected. The facts don't seem to support your belief.
Easy. Governor =/= President

Convince me of your point. Please. Make me believe. I want to.
  #156  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:24 AM
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Facts don't just go away because you don't like them.
Indeed. So please stop ignoring the fact that the summation of all states' popular votes is completely and totally irrelevant to any discussion of presidential elections, even if you don't like that fact.
  #157  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:29 AM
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Indeed. So please stop ignoring the fact that the summation of all states' popular votes is completely and totally irrelevant to any discussion of presidential elections, even if you don't like that fact.
It's one hundred percent relevant when talking about popular choice and support.
  #158  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:50 AM
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It's one hundred percent relevant when talking about popular choice and support.
But if your contention is that the USA (as a whole) is not ready for a woman president, that would undercut your argument.

Last edited by John Mace; 12-16-2017 at 11:50 AM.
  #159  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:56 AM
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Beside the point. Not interested in discussing your take on the rules of debate.
I was asking what your take was. You're the one who asked me not to extrapolate your logic. If you don't want to discuss it, you shouldn't bring it up.

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I believe the obstacles to electing a woman president are not only vastly different from, but vastly greater than the obstacles to electing a black man president. Do you think they are identical and interchangeable?



Easy. Governor =/= President

Convince me of your point. Please. Make me believe. I want to.
I don't have to convince anyone. You are the one making an assertion, so you must convince us. So far all we have seen is that you have a certain belief or feeling. Data about other elections, Senator and governors especially, are most certainly relevant. As is data about the number of votes cast. Can you summarize the data that you have presented again?

Last edited by John Mace; 12-16-2017 at 11:56 AM.
  #160  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:56 AM
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Beside the point. Not interested in discussing your take on the rules of debate.

I believe the obstacles to electing a woman president are not only vastly different from, but vastly greater than the obstacles to electing a black man president. Do you think they are identical and interchangeable?



Easy. Governor =/= President

Convince me of your point. Please. Make me believe. I want to.
Frankly, I don't see how you, personally, can be convinced until we do elect a woman president.

But I'm convinced it's possible. Many people who voted for a woman for governor would have no qualms about voting for the same person for president.
  #161  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:05 PM
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In other news 92% of American say they would vote for a woman for president. But that's a razor thin margin, so we can probably dismiss it.
  #162  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:05 PM
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I'm even more convinced that U.S. voters will never elect a black President.

Like, c'mon, there's too much visceral racism out there.
At the risk of derailing the thread...Barack Obama married into an African-American family, but he himself wasn’t entirely part of that “community,” and many voters sensed or knew this. I don’t think it’s just by chance that US voters elected someone with just a plain old WEIRD background (Africa African father + white anthropologist mother) before (maybe DECADES) before they elect a “run-of-the-mill” African American (Jesse Jackson was the first to be taken seriously, in the late 80s, but no progress since, really).

Last edited by JKellyMap; 12-16-2017 at 12:06 PM.
  #163  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:12 PM
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...I don't have to convince anyone. You are the one making an assertion, so you must convince us. ...
Okay, don't play. See if I care. That was your big chance to present your argument to a willing listener.
  #164  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:14 PM
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At the risk of derailing the thread...Barack Obama married into an African-American family, but he himself wasn’t entirely part of that “community,” and many voters sensed or knew this. I don’t think it’s just by chance that US voters elected someone with just a plain old WEIRD background (Africa African father + white anthropologist mother) before (maybe DECADES) before they elect a “run-of-the-mill” African American (Jesse Jackson was the first to be taken seriously, in the late 80s, but no progress since, really).
AMEN . He wasn't a garden-variety black man or white man. Using him as an example doesn't say anything repeatable about the American electorate.
  #165  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:18 AM
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There are absolutely many women who are qualified. That's not the issue. It's not the candidates who are backward, it's the voters. That may have changed since so many heretofore esteemed men have recently been found to have...er...feet of clay. That's why I resurrected the thread.

What do you mean by "the trend will be in a one way direction"? Not clear to me.
We're ready now, as evidenced, pointed out elsewhere, that Hillary got more votes than the winning candidate. And the demographics are trending towards an ever more liberal electorate more comfortable with diversity of all kinds.
  #166  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:36 AM
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IMHO it's very important that Donald Trump not be reelected in 2020, given that he's still in office by then and runs again. But if the Democrats nominate another woman (Elizabeth Warren's name pops up) I believe they will be throwing the election away. Likewise a non-white man-- no matter how qualified.

This comes under the heading of Sad But True: only a white man can defeat Donald Trump.
No. What it won't take is Hillary Clinton, ever. The libs made the mistake of running her, and you people have to live with it.

I can think of several women that I would love to see as POTUS, and they are extremely qualified to hold the office - much more so than Hillary. Right off the top of my head: Laura Ingraham, Ann Coulter, Condoleezza Rice, Carly Fiorina and my wife.
  #167  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:18 AM
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Lets not put Ann Coulters name next to Condaleeza Rices.
  #168  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:29 AM
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No. What it won't take is Hillary Clinton, ever. The libs made the mistake of running her, and you people have to live with it.

I can think of several women that I would love to see as POTUS, and they are extremely qualified to hold the office - much more so than Hillary. Right off the top of my head: Laura Ingraham, Ann Coulter, Condoleezza Rice, Carly Fiorina and my wife.
Ingraham?
Coulter?

What in the Wide, Wide World of Sports makes you think those two are capable of running anything besides their mouths?
  #169  
Old 12-17-2017, 12:21 PM
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Ingraham?
Coulter?

What in the Wide, Wide World of Sports makes you think those two are capable of running anything besides their mouths?
I'm sitting here asking myself who would be worse: Trump or Coulter? I don't even want to THINK about that!!!
  #170  
Old 12-17-2017, 07:13 PM
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In support of the OP, I have to say, in light of some political groups' unrelenting and really quite oddly obsessive fixation on trashing Hillary, a portion of my male brain can't help but believe that in some part that has to do with her being a woman (ie connotations of misogyny). Not wholly, but partly; I know there are of course strategic reasons for trashing her. And it's just a vibe, coming from watching the peculiarly singular focus maintained over such a long period of time, the seemingly endless (male) dogpiles mounted against her. Would they do this with the same level of vigor and kind of really weird enthusiasm if she were a he?


This NYT article may be of interest, with theories on how Germany's Merkel obtained and stayed in power. Basically, she played down the fact she was a woman, a kind of human-being-first approach:

"Ms. Merkel avoided dwelling on her historic first and cultivated a resolutely boring public persona, easing her ascent to lead a nation that long held conservative attitudes toward women. Men underestimated her, at their peril. Modest she may be, but also unhesitating in her pursuit and exercise of power. Her climb to the top and her 12-year tenure have proven her a masterful political practitioner, one who has seized opportunity, eliminated opponents and sustained popular support."
  #171  
Old 12-17-2017, 07:26 PM
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In support of the OP, I have to say, in light of some political groups' unrelenting and really quite oddly obsessive fixation on trashing Hillary, a portion of my male brain can't help but believe that in some part that has to do with her being a woman (ie connotations of misogyny). Not wholly, but partly; I know there are of course strategic reasons for trashing her. And it's just a vibe, coming from watching the peculiarly singular focus maintained over such a long period of time, the seemingly endless (male) dogpiles mounted against her. Would they do this with the same level of vigor and kind of really weird enthusiasm if she were a he?
Who in this thread is saying it's not harder for a woman to win the WH? We're just saying it's not impossible. Similarly, it's harder for black man, but clearly possible.
  #172  
Old 12-17-2017, 08:09 PM
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I really wish Jennifer Granholm (former gov of MI) could run. She's great. Tis a shame she was born in Canada.
  #173  
Old 12-17-2017, 08:37 PM
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Woman. Black man. Piffle. 99.99% certain.

I won't live to see an atheist elected president.
  #174  
Old 12-17-2017, 09:05 PM
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Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love for a strong, smart, charismatic woman to rise up from the ranks, a woman who raised her children, and still managed a successful career AND a successful marriage. Who can write a book or a speech and still bake killer chocolate chip cookies. Who will not be accused of being shrill, uppity, unfeminine, a ball-buster, subject to hormonal fluctuations that make her unstable. Who will not be criticized for being too concerned with fashion (She wears expensive designer dresses!) or too frumpy (She always wears pants--when are we going to see her in a dress!)). Who won't be seen as too sexy (or too sexless). And blahblahblah endlessly with pointed barbs that men are not subject to.

Hillary hit all of those hot buttons. Any woman prominent in public life is going to hit a lot of them. Men are not scored on any of them.
Yet without naming a chunk of the electorate deplorable, with less Wall Street and a little more Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin she'd be in the White House.
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Last edited by up_the_junction; 12-17-2017 at 09:07 PM.
  #175  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:53 PM
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I'm giving this a bump to see if there's more discussion. The climate WRT to women in public life has changed since August when I started this thread. There's been a shift...a disillusionment with men in public life, a ripple in the Force. The grind is not so firm for men as it was.

What do y'all think, in light of recent developments?
I'll quote myselfAnd honestly, I was only half joking.
  #176  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:22 AM
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I'll quote myself
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Quote:
People keep worrying that the US will never elect a woman president. But by 2020 all the men might have resigned over sexual misconduct.
And honestly, I was only half joking.
The only guy impervious to this taint is the Groper in Chief.
  #177  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:26 AM
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The only guy impervious to this taint is the Groper in Chief.
I see what you did there!
  #178  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:52 AM
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Yet without naming a chunk of the electorate deplorable
I know! All those racists, sexists and homophobes were all set to vote for her and then she went and ruined it by calling them racists, sexists and homophobes.
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with less Wall Street
Sorry - compared to whom? The guy who filled his Cabinet with Wall Street billionaires?

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and a little more Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin she'd be in the White House.
True enough. So I'll give you one out of three.
  #179  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:14 AM
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Nobody in their right mind calls people they hope to represent as the leader of their country "deplorable". It's ridiculously arrogant, dismissive, condescending and judgemental - rather as you demonstrate, and it's hopelessly divisive.

Is there anyone in history who has stood for election and dismissed half the electorate in such terms? Fuck her and the smart arse liberal high horse she rode in on.

Worst. Political. Judgment. Ever.
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Last edited by up_the_junction; 12-18-2017 at 10:16 AM.
  #180  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:15 AM
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Nobody in their right mind calls people they hope to represent as the leader of their country "deplorable". It's ridiculously arrogant, dismissive, condescending and judgemental - rather as you demonstrate and it's hopelessly divisive.

Is there anyone in history who has stood for election and dismissed half the electorate in such terms? Fuck her and the smart arse liberal high horse she rode in on.
Yet Trump did it and it worked.

Last edited by running coach; 12-18-2017 at 10:15 AM.
  #181  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:19 AM
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Trump ridiculed the electorate?
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  #182  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:51 AM
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Trump ridiculed the electorate?
Yes. Repeatedly.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:03 AM
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Nobody in their right mind calls people they hope to represent as the leader of their country "deplorable". It's ridiculously arrogant, dismissive, condescending and judgemental - rather as you demonstrate, and it's hopelessly divisive.

Is there anyone in history who has stood for election and dismissed half the electorate in such terms? Fuck her and the smart arse liberal high horse she rode in on.

Worst. Political. Judgment. Ever.
It sure would be if that was indeed what she said. It wasn't, however. Like so many such memes, it was something taken out of context, stripped of nuance, and blasted around the world, because it was something a lot of people wanted her to have said.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:07 AM
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No. What it won't take is Hillary Clinton, ever. The libs made the mistake of running her, and you people have to live with it.

I can think of several women that I would love to see as POTUS, and they are extremely qualified to hold the office - much more so than Hillary. Right off the top of my head: Laura Ingraham, Ann Coulter, Condoleezza Rice, Carly Fiorina and my wife.
Let's not forget my good dog Bonnie. Except for Rice, and the unknown quantity of your wife, I'm sure she'd make your list, based on what looks like your criteria.
  #185  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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It sure would be if that was indeed what she said. It wasn't, however. Like so many such memes, it was something taken out of context, stripped of nuance, and blasted around the world, because it was something a lot of people wanted her to have said.
Sure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZHp4JLWjNw
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  #186  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:26 PM
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It sure would be if that was indeed what she said. It wasn't, however. Like so many such memes, it was something taken out of context, stripped of nuance, and blasted around the world, because it was something a lot of people wanted her to have said.
That’s simply the nature of memes, fair or not. Dukakis in the tank. Kerry and swift boats. GHW Bush’s Read My Lips.
  #187  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:29 PM
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The only guy impervious to this taint is the Groper in Chief.
It does help that Senator Doug Jones, the white knight of sexual assault victims everywhere, said that Trump should not resign.

Quote:
The winner of the Alabama special election, Democratic Senator-elect Doug Jones, says it's time to move on from the sexual misconduct allegations that have been made against President Donald Trump.

Jones told CNN's Jake Tapper on "State of the Union" Sunday morning that he doesn't agree with some in his party who say Trump should resign from office over the sexual harassment and sexual assault allegations against him, which Trump has denied.

"(T)hose allegations were made before the election, and so people had an opportunity to judge before that election," Jones said.
source
  #188  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:46 PM
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I hope you're right, because I want to be wrong.
I think its becoming clear that you are. On several fronts.

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I'll thank you not extrapolate my logic. I believe the deep-seated antipathy toward women is more insidious and widespread than the resistance to a black MAN in office.
Extrapolating logic is a pretty important part of debate. I you come up with a theory and your theory doesn't work when applied to analogous facts, then perhaps its not much of a theory. The misogyny in America is pretty light compared to other countries that have seen female heads of state. Perhaps Hillary was just a bad candidate.

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Obama was not a typical candidate, black or white. He wasn't your run-of-the-mill regular Joe like most of the doofuses in public life. He was a star, a superstar, even. Yeah, he wasn't good at the give-and-take and backroom haggling that is all successful politics. He expected his opposition to play fair, but he encountered racial hatred (I'm lookin' at you, Mitch McConnell). Obama was black. But he was a MAN, so not a candidate for any of those criticisms typically hurled at successful women.
This reminds me of he time when gay people pretended they had it worse than blacks and then gay black people came out and said "are you crazy?"

Quote:
Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love for a strong, smart, charismatic woman to rise up from the ranks, a woman who raised her children, and still managed a successful career AND a successful marriage. Who can write a book or a speech and still bake killer chocolate chip cookies. Who will not be accused of being shrill, uppity, unfeminine, a ball-buster, subject to hormonal fluctuations that make her unstable. Who will not be criticized for being too concerned with fashion (She wears expensive designer dresses!) or too frumpy (She always wears pants--when are we going to see her in a dress!)). Who won't be seen as too sexy (or too sexless). And blahblahblah endlessly with pointed barbs that men are not subject to.

Hillary hit all of those hot buttons. Any woman prominent in public life is going to hit a lot of them. Men are not scored on any of them.
Women are subject to different disadvantages than racial minorities but for every obstacle women face I can point to an obstacle that black men face that white women do not face. Perhaps Hillary was just a bad candidate.

Quote:
Facts don't just go away because you don't like them.
Irrelevant facts, but facts nonetheless.

Yayy Hillary ran up the biggest Calfirona margin in history. She won California by over 4 million votes. In the meantime if she had 100,000 more votes in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan, she could be POTUS right now. But she never even went to some of those states. Maybe she is just a bad candidate.
  #189  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:54 PM
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Beside the point. Not interested in discussing your take on the rules of debate.

I believe the obstacles to electing a woman president are not only vastly different from, but vastly greater than the obstacles to electing a black man president. Do you think they are identical and interchangeable?



Easy. Governor =/= President

Convince me of your point. Please. Make me believe. I want to.
Maybe Hillary lost because she is bad at being a politician.

Smart money is still on the white man but its no harder for a white woman than it is for a black man.
  #190  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
It's one hundred percent relevant when talking about popular choice and support.
No, no its not. Voter turnout in "safe states" is traditionally low. Hillary just happened to energize high voter turnout in a safe state, California. Her nationwide lead was 3 million. Of that 3 million popular vote advantage, 4 million was from California.
  #191  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Maybe Hillary lost because she is bad at being a politician.

Smart money is still on the white man but its no harder for a white woman than it is for a black man.
She was a poor choice, too conservative to win over the progressives, too hated by the Right to attract a lot of swing voters.

I held my nose to vote for her, but had the other side not put forth a true fascist I probably wouldn't have been driven to vote.

While sexism is alive and well, and she did lose votes for having the wrong parts she wasn't even close to being the best choice for the first serious Democrat female candidate.

I also felt her husband was more like George Herbert Walker Bush than a progressive, and in full disclosure; Tipper Gore also made it hard for me to vote for Al Gore, she was in bed with the Eagle Forum and the PMRC. The Eagle Forum and Phyllis Schlafly, is one of the largest anti-feminist, pro-life, anti-gay and ultimately anti-free speech organizations in America. I didn't want Tipper Gore as a First Lady just as I didn't want the sexist and homophobic Bill Clinton in that role. Bill Clinton will always be the president of DOMA in my mind, no matter if he was a Democrat or not.

I know lots of reliable Democrat voters that felt the same without giving one hoot about what private parts she had.

Last edited by rat avatar; 12-18-2017 at 01:36 PM.
  #192  
Old 12-18-2017, 07:06 PM
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I know lots of reliable Democrat voters that felt the same without giving one hoot about what private parts she had.
I'd think that their opinions don't matter in terms of electoral success. Isn't it only the unreliable voters who make the difference?

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Maybe Hillary lost because she is bad at being a politician.
After eight years of a Democrat in the White House, the GOP starts out ahead.

Every candidate has strengths and weaknesses. One strength Hillary had was the good US economic performance when her husband was president. Some of the younger people here may not recall that, but older people who do remember vote a lot. And that's where Bernie Sanders is, in an electoral sense, weak -- because the world socialism is not a electoral positive in the US. On economics, Hillary was strong, and you can't assume someone else would be.

At the national level, no candidate is immune to opposition research.

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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
It needs to be a leader with some charisma.
One theory is that after an exciting President, people want someone boring, and visa versa. Boring sounds good to me right now (and I am a swing voter).

Another theory, which I hope isn't true, is that it doesn't matter who the candidate is -- all that matters is whether it is a Democratic or Republican year. The fact that Donald friggin' Trump could, in 2016, beat a mainstream Democrat, provides evidence in that direction.

Last edited by PhillyGuy; 12-18-2017 at 07:11 PM.
  #193  
Old 12-18-2017, 07:56 PM
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This reminds me of he time when gay people pretended they had it worse than blacks and then gay black people came out and said "are you crazy?”
Gay people just “pretended” they had it worse?

That comment is asinine.

In many ways it was demonstrably more difficult to be gay than to be black. When in many states discrimination against gays was legal it was worse in at least some aspects.

It’s also hardly clear that “gay black people” disagreed despite your claim.
  #194  
Old 12-28-2017, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Woman. Black man. Piffle. 99.99% certain.

I won't live to see an atheist elected president.
I'm sure there were several in your lifetime. You don't get to be President by being so stupid as to admit you've ever had a crisis of faith.
  #195  
Old 12-28-2017, 07:34 AM
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The fact that Hillary was considered the Heiress Apparent for so long pretty much demonstrates that the US was ready for a woman President.
  #196  
Old 12-28-2017, 07:57 AM
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The fact that Hillary was considered the Heiress Apparent for so long pretty much demonstrates that the US was ready for a woman President.
The country WAS ready a year ago, but the Hillary debacle ruined chances for any woman candidate for many years to come.
  #197  
Old 12-28-2017, 09:11 AM
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People react. They'll want whatever Trump is not. That means that they will vote for women. Trump may turn out to be the best thing that ever happened for feminism.
  #198  
Old 12-28-2017, 09:57 AM
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If someone like Nikki Haley ran and got significant support from other women, she'd win handily.

She was rock solid at the U.N. the other day. It's way too early, but could see myself voting for her.
  #199  
Old 12-28-2017, 10:05 AM
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She was rock solid at the U.N. the other day. It's way too early, but could see myself voting for her.
You mean when she said they better play nice or we'd take all our marbles and go home. Yeah, really mature. I heard her on the radio and she sounded like a kindergartner.
  #200  
Old 12-28-2017, 10:16 AM
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I heard her on the radio and she sounded like a kindergartner.
Considering she was addressing the U.N., that would be audience level appropriate.
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