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  #101  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
No, how dare he not represent the district he is from. They elected him to a Republican agenda, not Tony Evers agenda.

And least you forget, I am the one who said this was a huge political risk. Public opinion could turn savage against the GOP. We’ll find out in 2 and 4 years from now. But with a Republican majority on both sides Evers was going to fail anyway. So this really isn’t that big of deal.
I believe he was hired to do the best for Wisconsin residents, not his party. If this was such a great idea, it should have been done while Walker has meaningful term left. If it wasn't a great idea then, it is not a great idea now.
  #102  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:39 PM
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Man, pkbites is exactly the example for why I have turned my back on Republicanism whole-cloth. They have zero values or principles they stick to. He acts like the answer to "but is it ILLEGAL?" would ever have any effect on him supporting them (hint: it wouldn't matter. "Collusion isn't technically a crime," they crow). The only thing that matters is winning, and there's zero consideration for what's actually right or wrong anymore.

I think there USED to be SOME principles, but every Republican had to bankrupt their principles in order to support Trump. How can any person who claims to have principles or values support a man who 1, Says he's never done anything so wrong as to need to ask God for forgiveness (I'm looking at you, evangelicals) or 2, someone who openly discusses how he would bang his own daughter because she's a "hot piece of ass" and that other men can call her "a hot piece of ass" because she IS IN FACT "a hot piece of ass," or 3, cheated on all THREE of his THREE!!! Wives, apparently with not-exactly-prostitutes but porno stars whom he paid hundreds of thousands of dollars BECAUSE of the sex, who 4, says he can grab women by their PUSSIES, and also calls them "pussies," who also 5, lies about *something* literally every time he has to put more than a few sentences together. Seriously, he can't brag about shit he's actually done well--like unemployment rates--without lying about some fact or figure. He's so prone to hyperbole he's abandoned a relationship with truth.

And people like pkbites has faced all these facts and dozens of other horrible, immoral junk he's done, and thinks to himself "well I just *HATE* liberals so sure, Trump!" They'd vote for the devil with an R if Jesus ran as a Democrat.

There is not a principle to be seen in sight. And you know what? You never again get to talk about the sanctity of marriage--I have proof you are able to stop caring if it suits you. You don't get to talk about truth or honesty--I have proof you don't care when it suits you. You don't ever again get to talk about scandal, or greed, or presidential vacations, or the deficit--I have proof you don't care about any of those things when it suits you. Because you have no actual principles you are willing to stand by. You simply care about CONTROL. And it's based more on people you don't want to have power and controlling that power MORE than you care about the country, democracy, values, or especially freedom. Republicans HATE freedom.

BUT, all that said--I think I feel hopeful. Because Republicanism is dying a hard death. They have for years held on to a tenuous "minority control" through subterfuge, flat-out cheating and voter suppression--all of which is out loud and proud now. They are desperate because they know Conservativism isn't the natural state of things--Progressivism is. The youth of today is ever-increasingly progressive, and will continue to be into the future, and the baby boomers can't stand it. But that's the way life works--each generation is a little more caring and concerned about human rights, personal rights, the environment, and economic equality. Religion is dying out and exponential rates...and (SHOCK) it turns out people with atheistic ideals actually care more about each other since they aren't being pious and judgemental or so arrogant they think "they know God's Mind." Republicans know this, so they have resorted to a "the means justify MY END" mentality of "win at all costs. Principles be damned--we just want control." It's the last gasps of a dying man.

Because they know just how soft their grasp has become. And they know it's only going to get worse.

I don't think anyone's mentioned it but David Frum has a nice quote:
Quote:
If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.
  #103  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:45 PM
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Republicans own you. They've taken your country from you. They've taken everything that matters to you from you
I wonder if a conservative who lives in California, or Massachuesettes, or New Jersey, or Rhode Island, etc feels that way.
  #104  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:18 PM
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I wonder if a conservative who lives in California, or Massachuesettes, or New Jersey, or Rhode Island, etc feels that way.
The pigs in these states deserve no voice.

Given time, this will be true for the entire country. The Republican party needs to be treated like the Confederacy.
  #105  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:31 PM
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No, how dare he not represent the district he is from. They elected him to a Republican agenda, not Tony Evers agenda.
A majority of people in Wisconsin did elect Tony Evers on a Tony Evers agenda, though. I'd say it's disingenuous of the legislators to ignore that fact, but they're being pretty blatant that they know perfectly well what they're doing and don't care how it looks.
  #106  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:36 PM
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A majority of people in Wisconsin did elect Tony Evers on a Tony Evers agenda, though. I'd say it's disingenuous of the legislators to ignore that fact, but they're being pretty blatant that they know perfectly well what they're doing and don't care how it looks.
Republicans don't give a shit. They think in terms of power only.
  #107  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:32 PM
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There was a Democrat from Wisconsin (I think he was a state rep) on MSNBC saying that one of the ways they're considering to fight it in court is with a separation of powers argument; that executive powers belong to the executive and can't be usurped by the legislature.

IANAL so I don't know how valid this argument is.
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  #108  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:40 PM
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Wisconsin Speaker Robin Vos says if extraordinary session bills aren't passed "we are going to have a very liberal governor who is going to enact policies that are in direct contrast to what many of us believe in."

So, I guess he and his party are forced to protect the citizens of Wisconsin from incorrect voting results?

WaPost cite
  #109  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:04 AM
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I believe he was hired to do the best for Wisconsin residents, not his party. If this was such a great idea, it should have been done while Walker has meaningful term left. If it wasn't a great idea then, it is not a great idea now.
No, he was elected to represent the people of the specific district he was elected from, not the people of the state at large. And he was elected as a member of a party with stated platforms.


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Originally Posted by Ambrosio Spinola View Post
A majority of people in Wisconsin did elect Tony Evers on a Tony Evers agenda, though. I'd say it's disingenuous of the legislators to ignore that fact, but they're being pretty blatant that they know perfectly well what they're doing and don't care how it looks.
So because one man was elected in a state wide election Senators and Representatives are supposed to roll over and ignore the will of the districts they represent and allow Evers to do whatever he wants? This is all just part of the checks and balances of our system. It's pretty hard ball politics, but that's all it is, political. Nobody is shooting each other in a duel.

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There was a Democrat from Wisconsin (I think he was a state rep) on MSNBC saying that one of the ways they're considering to fight it in court is with a separation of powers argument; that executive powers belong to the executive and can't be usurped by the legislature.

IANAL so I don't know how valid this argument is.
All the Republicans are doing is reversing some things they did after Walker was elected. Did you all bark when those rules/laws were put forth in the first place? If so, why are you unhappy about them being abolished?
Tony Evers will not have any less power or authority than Jim Doyle had when he was Governor. This entire thing really isn't anything for you all to get your undies in a bunch about. Now, after Evers single term, when A Republic Governor returns, if they try to return these laws, I can imagine some real howling then.


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The pigs in these states deserve no voice.
Nice civil discourse. I knew eventually someone on this thread would resort to name calling.
  #110  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:16 AM
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The Wisconsin legislature is hardly the people's choice. The Dems received 190,000 more votes overall, but the Reps got 63 out of 99 seats.
  #111  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:34 AM
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Another post in agreement with this statement. I was trying to think if a lame-duck session of this magnitude has happened before. I'm sure it has, but I cannot remember anything like this happening. And a Google search doesn't yield any specific examples.

If this is 'just politics', it would be happening on a regular basis. It does not.
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It was Norh Carolina in almost exactly the same situation.
And Michigan. I mean, this is happening on a regular basis, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

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Nice civil discourse. I knew eventually someone on this thread would resort to name calling.
Well what do you expect? You don't see a problem with a hardline power grab because "the legislature was elected to represent the constituents". Except there seems to be no standard for that other than "we can legally get away with it".

Your arguments are the nonsensical ramblings of an authoritarian with no interest in democracy beyond the question of "how can I get more power", and past a certain point, arguing with that becomes a waste of time. If you don't understand what's wrong here, you are part of the problem.

Let me be blunt here. I don't know whether or not you are a fascist. But, at the very least, you are supporting and endorsing fascism.
  #112  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:51 AM
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*Authoritarianism. Sorry, fascism is more about racial stuff, I should be more precise with my language.
  #113  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:19 AM
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So because one man was elected in a state wide election Senators and Representatives are supposed to roll over and ignore the will of the districts they represent and allow Evers to do whatever he wants?
I didn't realize that Governor Walker enjoyed such power. Does he?
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This is all just part of the checks and balances of our system.
No; it isn't. The fact that it doesn't happen every time there's a transfer of power is the evidence. The thing is, all available evidence points to the conclusion that conservatives don't wan't us to govern each other, they want to govern us. Not gonna happen.
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All the Republicans are doing is reversing some things they did after Walker was elected.
I doubt the veracity of this statement.
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Did you all bark when those rules/laws were put forth in the first place? If so, why are you unhappy about them being abolished?
I know there's at least one logical fallacy present in those 2 questions and that neither has any bearing on the current events in Wisconsin. Yes, we all barked; every one of us. The fact that you didn't hear it at the time is your problem and no one else's.

Why wouldn't people be concerned that the GOP thinks they deserve one set of gubernatorial powers but Democrats deserve a lesser set?

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Tony Evers will not have any less power or authority than Jim Doyle had when he was Governor.
Evading. Moving the goalposts.

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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
This entire thing really isn't anything for you all to get your undies in a bunch about.
If it isn't that big a deal, then why is it so important to you that you've been arguing in favor of it for days now? If it isn't a big deal to the Wisconsin GOP, why are they risking their future elections on it? It clearly is a big deal, both to them and to you; your protestations otherwise are unconvincing.
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Now, after Evers single term, when A Republic Governor returns, if they try to return these laws, I can imagine some real howling then.
Wow. Here you've just declared it a second time, yet you fail to see why anyone would have a problem with the GOP having one set of gubernatorial laws and a Democratic governor having a different set.
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Nice civil discourse. I knew eventually someone on this thread would resort to name calling.


What is happening in Wisconsin is beyond incivility: it is uncivilized.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-06-2018 at 01:20 AM.
  #114  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:06 AM
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Nice civil discourse. I knew eventually someone on this thread would resort to name calling.
I'm just going to say it outright, then:

If this is what you bring to a substantive debate, you lose.

If you don't address the content, it means you can't address the content, which means you lose.

There's no fancy Latin name for this rule, because the people who applied Latin tags to formal and informal errors didn't think to apply one to such a basic, rock-simple concept: In a debate, you... get this... wait for it... debate. You don't try to wriggle out of it by claiming the other person was mean to you.
  #115  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:17 AM
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Keep wearing the sunglasses, kiddo.
Well, you come in here saying stuff that has been said, one way or another, repeatedly throughout this thread. Only with a "wake up, sheeple!" spin, as if you were Paul Revere, waking up the countryside about what's going down.

Like I said, your condescension is duly noted.
  #116  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:43 AM
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What are you gonna do about it? Sit there and snivel?

Republicans own you. They've taken your country from you. They've taken everything that matters to you from you. What are you gonna do about it?

Probably nothing except talk about how we should find ways to understand them.
From the "White America Doesn't Understand Democracy" thread:
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Has asahi ever suggested any reasonable courses of action for those of us on the left side of the political spectrum? All I ever see is where he craps over everyone else for believing that we're not all doomed.
And:
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Yeah well, I'm trying to figure out what asahi's alternative plan of action IS. We're doing stuff already, thanks. Like I said earlier, what's the opportunity cost of what we're already doing? What should we be doing that what we're doing now is getting in the way of?

In the absence of some answers there, he isn't on my side; he's an underminer.
Never did see any response from you there.
  #117  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:45 AM
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All the Republicans are doing is reversing some things they did after Walker was elected.
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I doubt the veracity of this statement.
Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) said Thursday that Republicans are looking at giving incoming Gov. Tony Evers less say in state rules that implement state laws. Eight years ago, Republicans handed Walker more power over those rules when he was first sworn in.


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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Well what do you expect? You don't see a problem with a hardline power grab because "the legislature was elected to represent the constituents".

I expect you to read entire posts and comprehend them. He was calling conservatives in California, New Jersey, etc pigs. What Republican power grab is happening in those places?

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you are part of the problem.
Except there is no problem. It's just political hardball. If your side can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. Except they can, when they are in power. You are aware that Democrats tried to pass labor contracts for state employees during the lame-duck period in 2010 after control of all of state government shifted from Democrats to Republicans. This isn't the first time a party has done this lame duck session stuff, and it won't be the last.

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you are supporting and endorsing fascism.
So the State Constitution in Wisconsin is a fascist document?

"The (state) constitution gives broad power to this body to oversee state government," he said. "Do you know what powers are listed in the constitution for the AG? None. None. So the authority lies in this body to set the policies for state government, so we’re doing that."




CMIIW but you're not even a resident of Wisconsin. What do you even care? Relax. We can handle this.
  #118  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:12 AM
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"Except there is no problem. It's just political hardball."

You're wrong. And as long as you're willing to excuse or defend these kinds of antidemocratic moves, you are excusing and defending authoritarianism.
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  #119  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:21 AM
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2, someone who openly discusses how he would bang his own daughter because she's a "hot piece of ass" and that other men can call her "a hot piece of ass" because she IS IN FACT "a hot piece of ass," or
[...]
4, says he can grab women by their PUSSIES, and also calls them "pussies,"
[...]
You never again get to talk about the sanctity of marriage--I have proof you are able to stop caring if it suits you. You don't get to talk about truth or honesty--I have proof you don't care when it suits you. You don't ever again get to talk about scandal, or greed, or presidential vacations, or the deficit--I have proof you don't care about any of those things when it suits you.
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Nice civil discourse. I knew eventually someone on this thread would resort to name calling.
Only your President gets to be uncivil? Add civility to things you can't complain about.
  #120  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:46 AM
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Only your President gets to be uncivil? Add civility to things you can't complain about.
Do your homework Bunky. And post Quotes of every time I've defended Trump.

And what does anything he's babbled have anything to do with what members are posting here?

Last edited by pkbites; 12-06-2018 at 05:49 AM.
  #121  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:59 AM
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So because one man was elected in a state wide election Senators and Representatives are supposed to roll over and ignore the will of the districts they represent and allow Evers to do whatever he wants?
They have a 63-36 majority in the lower house of their legislature. Evers can't pass any legislation without their consent.

All he can do is the normal stuff that the governor of the state gets to do. Or could do, since they've changed his powers.
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This is all just part of the checks and balances of our system. It's pretty hard ball politics, but that's all it is, political.
'Hardball politics' by your definition means holding onto power against the will of the majority of the voters, by both controlling the legislature against their will, and usurping the powers of the governor, against their will.

To me, that's banana-republic stuff. This is, as I've repeatedly said, a refusal to engage in the peaceful transfer of power, because the power isn't getting transferred, only an office that's a shell of its former self. If this were happening in a Third World country, the UN would be getting election monitors in there.

So if you can explain to me where the line is between 'hardball politics' and a banana-republic level frustration of democracy itself, I'd appreciate it.
  #122  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:09 AM
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Wisconsin Legislature Weakens Incoming Democratic Governor By Restricting His Access To Food, Water, Shelter

The Onion, of course.
  #123  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:13 AM
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Do your homework Bunky. And post Quotes of every time I've defended Trump.

And what does anything he's babbled have anything to do with what members are posting here?
Now you get to be uncivil? Yeah no.
  #124  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:40 AM
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Now you get to be uncivil? Yeah no.
How's that uncivil? I'm challenging you to point out all the times I've defended anything Trump has said. If I have (which I don't recall), I assure you it wasn't when he uttered that trash talk.
  #125  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:44 AM
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a refusal to engage in the peaceful transfer of power, because the power isn't getting transferred, only an office that's a shell of its former self.
This is false and I posted a cite to it. Evers is receiving the same office that Jim Doyle received. All the legislature is attempting to do is reverse powers they gave Scott Walker. Was the office of Governor a shell when Jim Doyle was Governor? No, it wasn't.
  #126  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:58 AM
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How's that uncivil? I'm challenging you to point out all the times I've defended anything Trump has said. If I have (which I don't recall), I assure you it wasn't when he uttered that trash talk.
Okay, I'm going to call you Bunky from now on. Cool.
  #127  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:20 AM
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This is false and I posted a cite to it. Evers is receiving the same office that Jim Doyle received. All the legislature is attempting to do is reverse powers they gave Scott Walker. Was the office of Governor a shell when Jim Doyle was Governor? No, it wasn't.
Mind posting that cite again, so I don't have to dig it out of the thread? Or at least give the post #?
  #128  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:21 AM
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Well what do you expect? You don't see a problem with a hardline power grab because "the legislature was elected to represent the constituents". Except there seems to be no standard for that other than "we can legally get away with it".
This is another case of the notion that constitutionality is based solely on a black and white reading if the law, a notion that is, if I may be blunt, incredibly ignorant.

A democratic country's Constitution is more than just a set of top-level laws; it is also a social compact and common understanding that it is everyone's responsibility to uphold a set of customs and traditions to ensure the smooth operation of the apparatus of state. "It's okay because we can technically get away with it" is exactly what a person says when they no longer care about the constitutional state and instead prioritize getting their political way.
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  #129  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:42 AM
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That was a RIGHT thing to do, because everything Walker wanted to do was BAD. And WRONG. And EVIL.

And if anyone thinks I don’t understand Poe’s Law or I would have put some kind of smiley to indicate that I was being sarcastic, let me assure y’all that I understand Poe’s Law just fine. Those evaluations are 100% objectively accurate and consistent with observed reality.
What if the Wisconsin Republicans think that what the incoming governor promises to do is BAD, and WRONG and EVIL?

Its wrong regardless of who does it.
  #130  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:54 AM
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Quoth pkbites:

If I see an R I don't necessarily vote for it. Anyone know who the RINO was that voted against this? I haven't seen it published yet. Though I just woke up due to shift work.
At least start a new paragraph before contradicting yourself. You don't blindly vote for everything Republican, you say. You just expect everyone else to.
  #131  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:11 AM
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Thank you for the link that supports my view that your statement was not at all accurate.
  #132  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:16 AM
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Do your homework Bunky. ...
I'm not familiar with this term and it's not immediately clear from some searching, but I can't imagine it's a term of endearment. Do not call people names in this forum.

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Okay, I'm going to call you Bunky from now on. Cool.
No. Don't do that, outside the Pit at least.

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  #133  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:01 PM
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So let me review to make sure that I have the facts straight here.

8 years ago, Republican Scott Walker was elected Governor of Wisconsin. Shortly thereafter, the Republican-controlled legislature created new laws that gave Governor Walker some powers that no Wisconsin governor had ever had previously.

Then last month, Democrat Tony Evers defeated Walker in the gubernatorial election and will become the new Governor of Wisconsin early next year. However, this week the legislature voted to remove the aforementioned powers from the hands of the governor.

Is this correct? If not, I'm sure you'll tell me where I'm wrong.

But if is correct, how in the hell can you justify these actions?

And please don't say it's politics as usual, okay?
  #134  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
The Wisconsin legislature is hardly the people's choice. The Dems received 190,000 more votes overall, but the Reps got 63 out of 99 seats.
Yeah, pkbites. See what happens when certain members of the legislature/state house write and sign certain laws into effect that actively seek to undermine the will of the majority of voters? Gerrymandering: No more perfect example exists to show why this effort is also wrong.

In any case, do you or anyone else ever admit to being wrong in GD?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 12-06-2018 at 05:05 PM.
  #135  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:12 PM
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pkbites, do you have any standard for whether a law is good that isn't based on partisanship or legality?
  #136  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:44 PM
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I'm not familiar with this term and it's not immediately clear from some searching, but I can't imagine it's a term of endearment. Do not call people names in this forum.
[/moderating]

I may be showing my age here (which is why you are not familiar with the term) but a bunky is one who occupies the same area of a given space, such as in a barracks, or in our case, the SDMB.

It is neither a term of endearment nor a term of disparagement.

I fought your ignorance today. You're welcome.
  #137  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Thank you for the link that supports my view that your statement was not at all accurate.
WTH are you talking about? My statement is exactly accurate. The legislature gave the Governor powers that no other Governor had, and now they are rescinding them. A governor did not have these powers before Scott Walker. And at the time (2011-2012 sessions I believe) there were objections to the legislature giving him those powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railer13 View Post
So let me review to make sure that I have the facts straight here.

8 years ago, Republican Scott Walker was elected Governor of Wisconsin. Shortly thereafter, the Republican-controlled legislature created new laws that gave Governor Walker some powers that no Wisconsin governor had ever had previously.

Then last month, Democrat Tony Evers defeated Walker in the gubernatorial election and will become the new Governor of Wisconsin early next year. However, this week the legislature voted to remove the aforementioned powers from the hands of the governor.

Is this correct?
Yes, that is exactly right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railer13 View Post
But if is correct, how in the hell can you justify these actions? And please don't say it's politics as usual, okay?
Nice of you to tell me what terms I can use to describe something. I'll take it from a Mod (even when in their ignorance they are wrong) but not from you.

It's no more underhanded than when the Democrats got the rules bent so they could run Frank Lautenberg for Senate past the deadline for getting on the ballot. It's just partisan politicking. What the Republicans are doing is no different than if they put a sunset clause on the legislation.

All the Democrats have to do is get the majority in the legislature back and set things up to benefit them. And (to use your terms) please don't say it won't happen because of gerrymandering. Remember, the Republicans had won the majority before any so called gerrymandering (actually a reasonable correction) of districts occurred.

Plus this thing could easily turn bad for the Republicans, even in usually safe districts. I have always contended that. I have yet to post whether or not any of this was overall worth the risk. I have only posted what the positive reasons for it are. I've never denied this could be a very regrettable maneuver.

Last edited by pkbites; 12-06-2018 at 10:30 PM.
  #138  
Old 12-07-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
All the Democrats have to do is get the majority in the legislature back and set things up to benefit them. And (to use your terms) please don't say it won't happen because of gerrymandering. Remember, the Republicans had won the majority before any so called gerrymandering (actually a reasonable correction) of districts occurred.
As noted in this article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, I'm sorry, but that is *exactly* the issue. The gerrymander that the Wisconsin GOP has set up means that there are a relatively small number of Democratic districts, and those are *hugely* Democratic, while giving themselves a substantially larger number of not-as-lopsided, but still pretty-damned-safe, Republican districts. In the election last month, only five out of 99 assembly districts were decided by less than 5 percentage points.

As the article notes, in order to have a reasonable chance to retake control of the legislature, the Democrats would need to win, statewide, by 9 or 10 percentage points. Under the old map, the Democrats would have have a reasonable chance to control the legislature if they had won the statewide vote by 2 or 3 percentage points.

Looking at the results of last month's vote, in order to have won the Legislature, Democratic candidates would have had to have won seats in at least 14 districts in which Walker had gotten more votes than Evers (i.e., Republican-leaning districts), including having to have won at least 9 districts that Walker won by at least 5 percentage points.

I won't say that "it won't happen," but the GOP has very cunningly stacked the deck so that it's pretty damned unlikely any time soon.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 12-07-2018 at 12:15 AM.
  #139  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
All the Democrats have to do is get the majority in the legislature back and set things up to benefit them. And (to use your terms) please don't say it won't happen because of gerrymandering. Remember, the Republicans had won the majority before any so called gerrymandering (actually a reasonable correction) of districts occurred.
This statement alone... you calling the gerrymandering in Wisconsin, "a reasonable correction" tells me there is absolutely no point in discussing this with you further.
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  #140  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:49 AM
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This statement alone... you calling the gerrymandering in Wisconsin, "a reasonable correction" tells me there is absolutely no point in discussing this with you further.
It brings to mind thoughts I keep having about fascist gaslighting, honestly.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 12-07-2018 at 01:49 AM.
  #141  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:10 AM
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If the Assembly is giving/taking away power from the Governor's office based solely upon who is occupying that office, then it does not represent good governance.

I have no problem with re-evaluating the balance of power between the legislature and the executive periodically, and making changes if that's what the legislature deems appropriate. I think, however, that there are at least two conditions that should be met first:
  1. Legislators make their intentions known to voters before elections, and,
  2. The re-evaluation and conclusions drawn therefrom are not dependent upon the occupant of the executive office.
Now, I understand that the second condition asks that the Assembly be non-partisan in its approach, which is apparently a bridge too far for the current batch of legislators in Wisconsin, Michigan, and elsewhere, but it's the only honest way to deal with matters like this. If you believe that the balance of power between the legislature and the executive is out of whack, then you should believe that it is out of whack regardless of each branch's party affiliation.

I am well aware that a particular Executive can cause one to re-examine the powers that the office enjoys when that Executive is wielding those powers maliciously or incompetently (*cough*Trump), and this is a good and necessary thing. I see no harm in thinking, "Wow, we might need to make some changes to keep this from happening again." But that means re-balancing the powers of the Executive office, not re-balancing the powers for that particular office-holder only.

This is what has me so enraged. It is so clearly a naked and cowardly power-grab. And, to head off the inevitable counter-argument, yes, I absolutely would be just as angry were the party affiliations reversed. Perhaps I'm a bit of an idealist when it comes to governing, but I firmly believe that in order to have a stable democratic republic, party affiliations cannot be allowed to determine the structures of our governments or the powers they enjoy.

Cowards, the lot of them.

Last edited by carlb; 12-07-2018 at 08:11 AM.
  #142  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Railer13 View Post

Is this correct? If not, I'm sure you'll tell me where I'm wrong.

But if is correct, how in the hell can you justify these actions?
Because Republicans.
  #143  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:33 AM
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Wisconsin Republicans Approve 82 Scott Walker Appointees In 1 Day

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0844cda4f9959
Quote:
On Tuesday, they also approved 82 Walker appointees to serve across the state government. That’s 82 confirmations in one day, just weeks before a new governor, of a different political party, is set to take office.
...
Carrie Lynch, Evers’ spokeswoman, told the Wisconsin State Journal that more than 30 of the nominees have had no public hearing.
...
Walker no doubt knows what he did is not a good look. In 2010, he urged outgoing Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle not to “finalize any permanent civil service personnel” during his last two months in office. 
He's a hypocritical asshole.
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Last edited by davidm; 12-07-2018 at 09:34 AM.
  #144  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
WTH are you talking about? My statement is exactly accurate.
No; it isn't. It's distinctly inaccurate. Your assertion was unequivocal and your own cite proves it false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
The legislature gave the Governor powers that no other Governor had, and now they are rescinding them. A governor did not have these powers before Scott Walker. And at the time (2011-2012 sessions I believe) there were objections to the legislature giving him those powers.
Whatever. That isn't all that's on the table, as your cite shows. Your assertion is falsified.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-07-2018 at 10:01 AM. Reason: fixed coding
  #145  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
It's no more underhanded than when the Democrats got the rules bent so they could run Frank Lautenberg for Senate past the deadline for getting on the ballot.
No, the Democrats did not get 'the rules bent' in the 2002 New Jersey Senate race. The state Supreme Court ruled in their favor. Underhanded, to be sure, but still legal, just as this stunt is by the Wisconsin Republicans.

Trotting out weak examples of Democratic whataboutisms does not justify these actions in Wisconsin. At least you've finally acknowledged that this might have political ramifications for these clowns.

And gerrymandering is a 'reasonable correction of districts'? As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, there's nothing reasonable about the current makeup of the Wisconsin House districts.
  #146  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:33 AM
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It's no more underhanded than when the Democrats got the rules bent so they could run Frank Lautenberg for Senate past the deadline for getting on the ballot. It's just partisan politicking.
Also, it's no different from that time Stalin had his political enemies murdered. It was just politicking then, and if Trump were to do the same that would be fine. Anything that helps you get ahead in politics is just politicking. We don't need standards or norms.
  #147  
Old 12-07-2018, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddle peghead View Post
also, it's no different from that time stalin had his political enemies murdered. It was just politicking then, and if trump were to do the same that would be fine. Anything that helps you get ahead in politics is just politicking. We don't need standards or norms.
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  #148  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:04 PM
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If it weren't for double standards, Democrats would have no standards at all:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/p...in-coup-wasnt/

"When the governor’s mansion changed hands in 1972, 1984, and 1988, legislative Democrats were behind the effort to rein in the new Republican governor’s appointment power. “This history does not excuse what North Carolina Republicans have done,” Adler correctly noted. But they failed to recognize that the precedents that Tarheel State Republicans were building upon led to an appalling lack of perspective among garment-rending political commentators."

"On the eve of decennial reapportionment and with New Jersey set to lose a congressional seat, that would have left Republicans in control of the consequential federal redistricting process. That simply would not do, and so legislative Democrats spent the lame-duck session ceding legislative redistricting authority to an independent commission."

"When Republican Bruce Rauner won an upset victory over Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, legislative Democrats moved in the lame-duck session to truncate the length of the term to which the governor could appoint a comptroller from four years to two. Democrats, Quinn included, claimed that this actually made the system more democratic, since it put the vacancy to a vote of the public sooner. “I think democracy is always better when the people call the shots, when the people are in charge,” Quinn said. “Not only is the action planned for tomorrow unconstitutional,” House Republican leader Jim Durkin countered, “it’s nothing short of a power grab by the Democratic majority in a lame-duck session.”"

"Had former Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry been elected to the presidency in 2004, then-Gov. Mitt Romney would have been legally obliged to appoint his replacement to the U.S. Senate, and that replacement would presumably have been a Republican. The Democrats in the state legislature couldn’t have that, so they overrode Romney’s veto to strip his office of senatorial appointment power. But following the death of Sen. Edward Kennedy in 2009, Democratic Gov. Deval Patrick was hamstrung by that very same law. So, Massachusetts Democrats simply repealed it."
  #149  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:06 PM
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Republicans lined up behind Trump, so they have no standing to speak of standards.
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  #150  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Smashy View Post
If it weren't for double standards, Democrats would have no standards at all:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/p...in-coup-wasnt/
Interesting article. Why don't you start a thread about it? We are discussing certain Republicans' lack of standards in this one. And notice how I use the term "certain", rather than pretending that a whole swath of people behave in one way, based upon examples of just a few of them.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 12-07-2018 at 01:26 PM.
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