View Poll Results: The Mueller report. The week after its released.
Trump is not charged with any crime, and Mueller's report is found to have some procedural issues. 2 2.50%
Trump is not charged with any crime, Mueller's report offers disclosure showing it was fairly conducted. 26 32.50%
Trump is charged with a crime, but the evidence presented is flimsy and circumstantial and will be quickly dismissed by his legal team. 1 1.25%
Mueller has hard evidence on collusion, including emails, and recordings. Trump gets a subpoena. 51 63.75%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:34 PM
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Well let's see Russian spies(foreign power) gather info or rumours that they then sell to Steele....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....s-treason/amp/
That was an extremely badly written article which seemed to consist entirely of unsubstantiated--and in several cases entirely false--allegations. Though, I can see why if you used articles like that as your news source, why you would think that the dossier was the work of "a foreign power".

I do note that the article was marked "Opinion", which I suppose allows the "paper" to excuse the multiple lies it contained.

I would strongly suggest finding a more reliable source of news. And also, not spreading lies published as "opinion" as facts, thanks.
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  #102  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:35 PM
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Impeachment is far fetched unless something significant comes up that has Watergate-like proof. Let's say audio and visual evidence. Or email evidence. There is no such thing here.
Unless you've got an inside line that is just an unfounded opinion on your part, so I think I'll just wait to see the actual report...if you don't mind?
  #103  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:55 PM
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Nah, impeachment is just a first action for moderates😂
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Anyone remember that one time Trump fired the head of the FBI because he didn't like that the head of the FBI was investigating potential criminal activity by his campaign? And then the special council called to investigate afterwards found a criminal coverup that implicated 6 of Trump's inner circle? And the Trump publicly told his justice department to go after a family member of one of those people after they flipped on him, and that person delayed their testimony as a result?

I feel like we need to keep reminding people of this, because Trump supporters seem to keep forgetting.
You are aware that things like witness tampering, obstruction of justice, and the like are federal crimes, right?

Honestly, even if it turns out that absolutely none of the Trump-Russia collusion threads go anywhere (not likely, but okay), there is plenty of evidence of Trump doing some real fuckin' criminal shit.
  #104  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:02 PM
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I would strongly suggest finding a more reliable source of news...
As the Right Rev. Chuck D so aptly said, "Forty cents in New York City, fifty cents elsewhere, and makes no goddamned sense at all. America's oldest continually published daily piece of bullshit."
  #105  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:25 PM
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That was an extremely badly written article which seemed to consist entirely of unsubstantiated--and in several cases entirely false--allegations. Though, I can see why if you used articles like that as your news source, why you would think that the dossier was the work of "a foreign power".

I do note that the article was marked "Opinion", which I suppose allows the "paper" to excuse the multiple lies it contained.

I would strongly suggest finding a more reliable source of news. And also, not spreading lies published as "opinion" as facts, thanks.
Because an opinion piece by the times is not subject to any what you just said right?
As long it's a leftie source it's all good
  #106  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:30 PM
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Because an opinion piece by the times is not subject to any what you just said right?
As long it's a leftie source it's all good
I don't remember listing an opinion piece as support for any factual claims I've made, so I don't know why you would imply that about my motivations.

But yes, I would separate "Opinion" pieces from "News" articles. And in fact, that's what reliable news sources do.

Also, I try to avoid "leftie sources" unless they've developed a reputation for accuracy. I don't need anyone telling me what to think, or slanting facts to reflect their bias. I'd hope that, even if I were a "rightie" I'd avoid the NYPost as the garbage heap it was.
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  #107  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:38 PM
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Also, I try to avoid "leftie sources" unless they've developed a reputation for accuracy. I don't need anyone telling me what to think, or slanting facts to reflect their bias. I'd hope that, even if I were a "rightie" I'd avoid the NYPost as the garbage heap it was.
I might be overstating my impartiality here. I do read opinion pieces by leftists as a way to understand the news, e.g., this thread by Seth Abramson. But if his interpretation was consistently biased (as shown by deviation from actual outcomes), I'd stop reading him.
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  #108  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:40 PM
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You are aware that things like witness tampering, obstruction of justice, and the like are federal crimes, right?

Honestly, even if it turns out that absolutely none of the Trump-Russia collusion threads go anywhere (not likely, but okay), there is plenty of evidence of Trump doing some real fuckin' criminal shit.
Yeah, and I'm aware that similar could be said of many politicians.

Bottom line is they all get away with it, sans what amounts to a taped confession (Nixon)

When a party starts screaming impeachment before or shortly after elections are over and just latching on to anything they think might do the trick it's 1. Whiny as hell 2. Extreme

I've heard plenty of qualifying accusations of federal crimes on either side.

If Hillary had won I'd be talking the same crap to whiny extreme Republicans.

It ain't right, but we all know how white collar crime goes....and how extensively forgiving a system high level politicians like say the president are actually subject to.
Hell if I would have broken security protocols the way Hillary did....well...I doubt I'd be walking around free.

Within the current system screaming impeachment for anything short of an easy clear cut case puts you way far off into whichever side you sit on.

Now, if the report presents some clear cut case ,different story. I highly doubt a report that's taking two years to put together is going to be anything resembling clear cut solid evidence.
  #109  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:44 PM
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Hell if I would have broken security protocols the way Hillary did....well...I doubt I'd be walking around free.

.
This has been repeatedly debunked.
  #110  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:44 PM
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Hell if I would have broken security protocols the way Hillary did....well...I doubt I'd be walking around free.
Really? Didn't Comey make the point that no one, ever, had previously been charged for what she did? You think you would be the first in the history of the United States?
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  #111  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:45 PM
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And if it took two months to put together the claim would be that there was no way to gather solid evidence in that amount of time. Tell me-is there any period of time for an investigation against Trump that would be satisfactory to you?
  #112  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:46 PM
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I don't remember listing an opinion piece as support for any factual claims I've made, so I don't know why you would imply that about my motivations.

But yes, I would separate "Opinion" pieces from "News" articles. And in fact, that's what reliable news sources do.

Also, I try to avoid "leftie sources" unless they've developed a reputation for accuracy. I don't need anyone telling me what to think, or slanting facts to reflect their bias. I'd hope that, even if I were a "rightie" I'd avoid the NYPost as the garbage heap it was.
Not you but...
Well what started the whole mess was an opinion piece in the times presented as fact and backed up as fact by several posters.

Now, I'd guess I certainly could get some better sources here but as yet I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and read up.

Which is why asked for clarification that the source for the dossier was russian/ brittish spies.....

Noone seemed to refute that it was.
  #113  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:48 PM
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Not you but...
Well what started the whole mess was an opinion piece in the times presented as fact and backed up as fact by several posters.

Now, I'd guess I certainly could get some better sources here but as yet I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and read up.

Which is why asked for clarification that the source for the dossier was russian/ brittish spies.....

Noone seemed to refute that it was.
I think it would be pretty easy to search and see that the dossier was complied by an independent person with sources in the Russian government.
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  #114  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:48 PM
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Really? Didn't Comey make the point that no one, ever, had previously been charged for what she did? You think you would be the first in the history of the United States?
Well, at the very least I'm sure I'd have had my security clearance revoked.
  #115  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:51 PM
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I think it would be pretty easy to search and see that the dossier was complied by an independent person with sources in the Russian government.
An independent person , or an employee of the campaign....?
Who did what now, got dirt from the Russian government?

Seems like semantics
  #116  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:53 PM
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I highly doubt a report that's taking two years to put together is going to be anything resembling clear cut solid evidence.
Riiight. If Mueller had just pulled an all-nighter and cut-and-pasted a few paragraphs from Wikipedia, that would have produced "clear cut solid evidence". But a two-year-long investigation, with federal search warrants, FBI raids, indictments, multiple people convicted or pleading guilty to federal crimes? Obviously crap.
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  #117  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:54 PM
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And if it took two months to put together the claim would be that there was no way to gather solid evidence in that amount of time. Tell me-is there any period of time for an investigation against Trump that would be satisfactory to you?
If it took two months I would be expecting a pretty clear cut case one way or the other .

It's all speculation, but yeah extremely long investigations tend to be all over the place

And at best lead to extremely loooong trials or hearings or what have you.

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  #118  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:56 PM
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An independent person , or an employee of the campaign....?
Who did what now, got dirt from the Russian government?

Seems like semantics
An independent person who was sub-contracted by a company that the campaign contracted to do work.

And yes, he used his sources, some of whom were inside the Russian government (and some of whom later mysteriously died) to get intelligence on Trump.
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  #119  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:59 PM
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It's also pretty safe to say white collar crime gets some very light sentences....

The only precedent is nixon and he got pardoned before conviction.

If Mueller has anything short of a taped confession I don't expect similar results to even that....but ya never know I guess
  #120  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:01 PM
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(and some of whom later mysteriously died).
I thought there was more than one mysterious death, but upon re-checking I see that there was only one.
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  #121  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:02 PM
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An independent person who was sub-contracted by a company that the campaign contracted to do work.

And yes, he used his sources, some of whom were inside the Russian government (and some of whom later mysteriously died) to get intelligence on Trump.
So if Trump used someone who was contracted to meet up and get dirt on Hillary that whole meeting would be ok?
  #122  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:05 PM
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So if Trump used someone who was contracted to meet up and get dirt on Hillary that whole meeting would be ok?
Well, that would depend. If Trump paid someone a fair market rate to gather information for him, then that would not be a problem. In fact, Trump paid probably thousands of people to do things for him in relation to the campaign, including likely to gather information on Clinton, and none of those transactions was ever considered to be a problem.

That's not what happened.

(Do you understand the issue here? I don't think that you do.)
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  #123  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:09 PM
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If Trump paid someone a fair market rate to gather information for him...
Let me clarify that I believe he wouldn't have even had to pay them if they were volunteering for his campaign, if they were US citizens.
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  #124  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:15 PM
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Wow, I know this board learns to the left, but the choice of #4 is a long shot. People are going to be upset here.
What's going to happen here is that you'll realize you are wrong, and you'll silently crawl away without ever facing the fact. Enjoy this game between now and then.
  #125  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:17 PM
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Not the way you do.
Still seems like semantics to me if your campaign is gathering Intel through connections to a foreign power.

Much like hiring a Hitman doesn't make you less of a murderer.

In any case I would hope that the impeachment of any president would be thought of as a sad day in American history rather than something to hope and pray for and cheer about. At least by anyone who considers themselves moderate.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-31-2019 at 05:19 PM.
  #126  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:27 PM
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Not the way you do.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.

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Much like hiring a Hitman doesn't make you less of a murderer.
Another great analogy would be how investigating your nanny's background by calling her prior employer is no different than having a foreign government offer to commit crimes to manipulate a United States presidential election on your behalf, and then telling them to go ahead with their proposed criminal activity.

Huh, maybe the second part of that analogy is a little too on the nose.
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  #127  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:38 PM
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What's going to happen here is that you'll realize you are wrong, and you'll silently crawl away without ever facing the fact. Enjoy this game between now and then.
In fact, this reminds me of the guy on these boards, who (during the 2nd Gulf War) assured us that he was "in the know" and had insider knowledge that there were definitely, positively, without doubt WMD's in Sadaam's Iraq.

He knew this, you see. And the rest of us would be amazed, AMAZED, once it all came out, and his insider knowledge would be shown to be the truth.

Then, he slunk away, and was never heard from again. Done. Vanished into the night.
  #128  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:47 PM
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Should I have said a month later? Forces were out to get Trump the moment he was the President-Elect. Two years have passed Czarcasm.

Mueller and his large team have had plenty of time to investigate. If you think he's holding back on a charge against Trump, I've got a gold mine the size of a mountain I'm looking to sell for $19.95

Impeachment is far fetched unless something significant comes up that has Watergate-like proof. Let's say audio and visual evidence. Or email evidence. There is no such thing here. Congress can vote to impeach; it takes s 2/3 vote from the Senate to confirm it. That would be a low point in USA politics, voting to impeach when nothing guilty was found on the President. I don't even want to think of the ramifications or payback for such a stunt. Nancy, just don't.
30 indictments, 8 people convicted, all of them connected to Trump and or his business or campaign. And that's just the tip of the ice burgh.

To defend Trump, a person must believe that the President of the United States is so easily manipulated, and such an idiot that he had nothing to do with any of this.

That's really Trumps only defense. "I'm a moron".
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  #129  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:59 PM
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In any case I would hope that the impeachment of any president would be thought of as a sad day in American history rather than something to hope and pray for and cheer about. At least by anyone who considers themselves moderate.
I don't care if you consider yourself Left, Right or Moderate. Impeachment of the President shows that the Constitution works, and we will not stand for electing a moron 'King'.

I will celebrate that the FF's did it right.
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  #130  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:18 PM
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It's hard see in what context Trump's actions towards anything to do with Russia make sense other than that of his being a Russian asset. If he isn't one, he's sure acting like one. It's all happening right in front of us, and it doesn't take any particular left-wing proclivities to see it. Maybe Trump supporters have too much of their identity invested in his administration to see what's in front of them, I don't know, but there's nothing particularly liberal about seeing Trump invite the Russian press into the oval office to tell them the heat's off now that he's fired Comey and thinking something could be a bit fishy.
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  #131  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:52 PM
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Maybe Trump supporters have too much of their identity invested in his administration to see what's in front of them, I don't know, but there's nothing particularly liberal about seeing Trump invite the Russian press into the oval office to tell them the heat's off now that he's fired Comey and thinking something could be a bit fishy.
Not the Russian press--Russian government officials.
  #132  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:20 PM
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I don't care if you consider yourself Left, Right or Moderate. Impeachment of the President shows that the Constitution works, and we will not stand for electing a moron 'King'.

I will celebrate that the FF's did it right.
We had W, speaking of moron kings

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  #133  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:21 PM
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30 indictments, 8 people convicted, all of them connected to Trump and or his business or campaign. And that's just the tip of the ice burgh.

To defend Trump, a person must believe that the President of the United States is so easily manipulated, and such an idiot that he had nothing to do with any of this.

That's really Trumps only defense. "I'm a moron".
I didn't know was always Hillary's defense
  #134  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:36 PM
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If there's a trial it looks like it will be a mob boss type deal.

How hard it is to prove is going to be based on wordplay.

According to this guy
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/23/opi....google.com%2F

See the first question in the QA section at bottom.


Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of faith in hard evidence of collusion but rather can they prove Trump's ordering people to sabotage the investigation. So if he gets a real charge I'd guess it would be obstruction or something.
  #135  
Old 01-31-2019, 10:46 PM
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I didn't know was always Hillary's defense
"Argle Bargle Hillary" is not really a stirring nor effective defense for Mr. Trump's stupidity.
  #136  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:21 PM
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"Argle Bargle Hillary" is not really a stirring nor effective defense for Mr. Trump's stupidity.
Good.
  #137  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:07 AM
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Good.
Then you might just consider that bringing up Hillary over and over in a thread about Mueller's investigation, charges and convictions of Trump associates...

makes any argument you bring to bear look weak and ineffectual.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 02-01-2019 at 12:07 AM. Reason: thread, not threat
  #138  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:48 AM
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Well, at the very least I'm sure I'd have had my security clearance revoked.
At the time this came out, Hillary was no longer SoS, wasn't president or president-elect, was no longer a Senator. She was essentially a private citizen, right? What kind of security clearance would she have possessed to be revoked?
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  #139  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:09 AM
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Yeah, and I'm aware that similar could be said of many politicians.
...No, it really couldn't.

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I've heard plenty of qualifying accusations of federal crimes on either side.
...No, not even close.

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If Hillary had won I'd be talking the same crap to whiny extreme Republicans.
I'm sure you would. This is the same party that entertained birtherism for ages. That doesn't mean that it's actually the same thing.

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Hell if I would have broken security protocols the way Hillary did....well...I doubt I'd be walking around free.
Buddy... You have no idea what you're talking about.
  #140  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:23 AM
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And this is my long time complaint. People simply do not know how government works. 19 fucking approvals from 19 fucking regulatory agencies are done, but no. No! Hillary can do what she wants with a pen and move uranium whenever she wants.

Test before voting would be best.
  #141  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:26 AM
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If there's a trial it looks like it will be a mob boss type deal.

How hard it is to prove is going to be based on wordplay.

According to this guy
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/23/opi....google.com%2F

See the first question in the QA section at bottom.


Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of faith in hard evidence of collusion but rather can they prove Trump's ordering people to sabotage the investigation. So if he gets a real charge I'd guess it would be obstruction or something.
Still waiting on that proof of Clinton giving Russia 20% of our uranium you said was ironclad days ago. Please, continue the gish-gallop as you leave unfounded accusations swimming in your wake like so many turds.
  #142  
Old 02-01-2019, 05:31 AM
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And that's just the tip of the ice burgh.
"Iceburgh?"

"It's a little bitty place."

"Iceburgh!?"

"Okay, I'll just wipe it off, that's all. It's just a little town."

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I didn't know was always Hillary's defense
It really wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of faith in hard evidence of collusion but rather can they prove Trump's ordering people to sabotage the investigation. So if he gets a real charge I'd guess it would be obstruction or something.
Remember Watergate? What did they go after Nixon for?

Last edited by Gyrate; 02-01-2019 at 05:31 AM.
  #143  
Old 02-01-2019, 05:52 AM
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Remember Watergate? What did they go after Nixon for?
Just you wait, that's the next step - rehabilitating Nixon in defense of Trump.
  #144  
Old 02-01-2019, 06:03 AM
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Just you wait, that's the next step - rehabilitating Nixon in defense of Trump.
That would fit--I'm pretty sure the FBI arrested one of Richard Nixon's Horcruxes last week.
  #145  
Old 02-01-2019, 06:18 AM
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At the time this came out, Hillary was no longer SoS, wasn't president or president-elect, was no longer a Senator. She was essentially a private citizen, right? What kind of security clearance would she have possessed to be revoked?
many people keep clearances after they retire from their job. You might recall that from Trump talking about taking away clearances from people last year and many of them were no longer in government jobs.
  #146  
Old 02-01-2019, 07:41 AM
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many people keep clearances after they retire from their job. You might recall that from Trump talking about taking away clearances from people last year and many of them were no longer in government jobs.
Many civilian jobs require clearances
  #147  
Old 02-01-2019, 08:39 AM
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And typically they are good for 10 years
  #148  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:43 AM
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...No, it really couldn't.



...No, not even close.



I'm sure you would. This is the same party that entertained birtherism for ages. That doesn't mean that it's actually the same thing.



Buddy... You have no idea what you're talking about.
Where do you live, candyland?

List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes

That's just major convictions. Not investigations.
  #149  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:05 PM
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Where do you live, candyland?

List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes

That's just major convictions. Not investigations.
Was that supposed to be a link? A search with those words yields over a dozen different lists.
  #150  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:19 PM
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This commentary basically says what I was poorly trying to say.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...story,amp.html

And reminds me of things like Hillary destroying evidence requested in an investigation, clearly obstruction.

Bill was proven to have also lied to Congress in investigations.

The same actions some of these Trump aides were actually convicted for but what were the Clinton's consequences?

I'm not even trying to outline a double standard or defend Trump , just point out these things rarely go much of anywhere and the higher up you are , the less likely you are to see any real consequences.


Some aides, a lawyer get convicted... Doesn't give me much faith Trump will.
Peons commonly take the fall.
I've seen a case where an officer tried to sneak an AK back from Iraq and was caught.....who served time for it? The nco he had cast the parts into a concrete guidon base.

If you think Trump is going to be impeached and you want that I'm afraid you are being a bit too optimistic.
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