View Poll Results: The Mueller report. The week after its released.
Trump is not charged with any crime, and Mueller's report is found to have some procedural issues. 2 2.50%
Trump is not charged with any crime, Mueller's report offers disclosure showing it was fairly conducted. 26 32.50%
Trump is charged with a crime, but the evidence presented is flimsy and circumstantial and will be quickly dismissed by his legal team. 1 1.25%
Mueller has hard evidence on collusion, including emails, and recordings. Trump gets a subpoena. 51 63.75%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:20 PM
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Was that supposed to be a link? A search with those words yields over a dozen different lists.
Yeah , just a wiki. I'm sure it's not comprehensive but it's just showing there are more than plenty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...cted_of_crimes
  #152  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:31 PM
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Bill was proven to have also lied to Congress in investigations.

The same actions some of these Trump aides were actually convicted for but what were the Clinton's consequences?
I seem to remember Bill being impeached. Did my brain make that up?
  #153  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:39 PM
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Anyone want to give me the over-under on whether any of myriad unsourced claims in that article hold up?
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  #154  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:09 PM
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Anyone want to give me the over-under on whether any of myriad unsourced claims in that article hold up?
About as well as the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
  #155  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:39 PM
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And reminds me of things like Hillary destroying evidence requested in an investigation, clearly obstruction.
Wat? That never happened. Where do you get your news from?
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  #156  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:50 PM
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That and I think most of Washington knows most of Washington is breaking a rule somewhere. Just seems to be a trend that Everytime one party doesn't get their way all of a sudden there's accusations and investigations flying around because waaah we didn't get our way instead of focusing on how now can we best forward our own agenda with this person in place.
  #157  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:52 PM
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Not the way you do.
Still seems like semantics to me if your campaign is gathering Intel through connections to a foreign power.
The biggest risk here is the implied quid pro quo that comes with working directly with the foreign power.
Acting through an independent third party (that is not empowered to either negotiate on the campaign's behalf, conspire to break US law, or even know/reveal the source of funding) provides an inherent buffer against any claims of quid pro quo.

Sure, if the Russians somehow figured out that Steele worked for Fusion GPS who worked for Perkins Coie who worked for the Clinton campaign, and the Russians hated Trump, they could have *conceivably* fed him some information to help Clinton/hurt Trump, but there would be no expectation of anything in return.

It's kinda like the difference between a boss propositioning an employee directly, and a boss asking a friend to help him find a date, so the friend creates an anonymous match.com account that happens to match with the same employee.

Does this not make sense to you?
  #158  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:54 PM
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Wat? That never happened. Where do you get your news from?
Yes I know, no Democrat has ever committed a crime. Any accusation of such is either made up or unfounded because they paid someone to do it for them rather than do it themselves.
  #159  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:55 PM
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The biggest risk here is the implied quid pro quo that comes with working directly with the foreign power.
Acting through an independent third party (that is not empowered to either negotiate on the campaign's behalf, conspire to break US law, or even know/reveal the source of funding) provides an inherent buffer against any claims of quid pro quo.

Sure, if the Russians somehow figured out that Steele worked for Fusion GPS who worked for Perkins Coie who worked for the Clinton campaign, and the Russians hated Trump, they could have *conceivably* fed him some information to help Clinton/hurt Trump, but there would be no expectation of anything in return.

It's kinda like the difference between a boss propositioning an employee directly, and a boss asking a friend to help him find a date, so the friend creates an anonymous match.com account that happens to match with the same employee.

Does this not make sense to you?
This actually makes some sense, thank you.
  #160  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:58 PM
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I seem to remember Bill being impeached. Did my brain make that up?
Yes and took it happening twice to reach that point.
  #161  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:02 PM
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Yes I know, no Democrat has ever committed a crime. Any accusation of such is either made up or unfounded because they paid someone to do it for them rather than do it themselves.
Wat?
If you claim that someone famous committed a crime, it's generally on you to provide proof of the crime. That's how this works.

Does the following conversation seem reasonable to you? Would you trust Person A to remember how to breath without a written reminder:

Person A: "Remember when Trump raped an infant on live TV?"
Person B: "Wat? That never happened"
Person A: "Yes, I know, no Republican has ever committed a crime."
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  #162  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:05 PM
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I seem to remember Bill being impeached. Did my brain make that up?
In fairness, Bill lied about something major. Not something minor like conspiring with a foreign power to undermine fair elections in the United States.
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  #163  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:17 PM
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The biggest risk here is the implied quid pro quo that comes with working directly with the foreign power.
Acting through an independent third party (that is not empowered to either negotiate on the campaign's behalf, conspire to break US law, or even know/reveal the source of funding) provides an inherent buffer against any claims of quid pro quo.

Sure, if the Russians somehow figured out that Steele worked for Fusion GPS who worked for Perkins Coie who worked for the Clinton campaign, and the Russians hated Trump, they could have *conceivably* fed him some information to help Clinton/hurt Trump, but there would be no expectation of anything in return.

It's kinda like the difference between a boss propositioning an employee directly, and a boss asking a friend to help him find a date, so the friend creates an anonymous match.com account that happens to match with the same employee.

Does this not make sense to you?
In essence hinging on whether someone purposely did it with your blessing on your behalf or at your intruction
  #164  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:28 PM
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Still seems like semantics to me if your campaign is gathering Intel through connections to a foreign power.
What foreign power do you think the Clinton campaign gathered intel through?

I don't mean to sound rude, but do you at all understand the facts of the case?
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  #165  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:37 PM
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Wat?
If you claim that someone famous committed a crime, it's generally on you to provide proof of the crime. That's how this works.

Does the following conversation seem reasonable to you? Would you trust Person A to remember how to breath without a written reminder:

Person A: "Remember when Trump raped an infant on live TV?"
Person B: "Wat? That never happened"
Person A: "Yes, I know, no Republican has ever committed a crime."
I do.

If by infant, you mean the United States, and by live TV, you mean every single day.
  #166  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:38 PM
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Wat?
If you claim that someone famous committed a crime, it's generally on you to provide proof of the crime. That's how this works.

Does the following conversation seem reasonable to you? Would you trust Person A to remember how to breath without a written reminder:

Person A: "Remember when Trump raped an infant on live TV?"
Person B: "Wat? That never happened"
Person A: "Yes, I know, no Republican has ever committed a crime."
According to the FBI 31,830 emails under house subpoena.
Here's a cite.
Now , even though this sites been used a cite in this thread with no objections, I'm sure now it's going to be innaccurate right?
Or wait is Hillary's I didn't know excuse just fine here when she then lied about when the deletion was to investigators?


https://www.factcheck.org/2016/09/th...intons-emails/
  #167  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:39 PM
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What foreign power do you think the Clinton campaign gathered intel through?

I don't mean to sound rude, but do you at all understand the facts of the case?
Is there some contention that the info on the dossier came from the Russians?

I thought that was an acknowledged fact.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-01-2019 at 02:41 PM.
  #168  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:50 PM
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Granted, in a trial you'd have to prove Hillary okd getting the info from russians and that they knew who it was going to.
  #169  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:56 PM
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Q. What will be the upshot of the Mueller Report once it is released?

A. ARGLE BARGLE HILLARY! She did some crimes! Because I heard about it!!!!111
  #170  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:56 PM
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According to the FBI 31,830 emails under house subpoena.
Here's a cite.
Now , even though this sites been used a cite in this thread with no objections, I'm sure now it's going to be innaccurate right?
Or wait is Hillary's I didn't know excuse just fine here when she then lied about when the deletion was to investigators?


https://www.factcheck.org/2016/09/th...intons-emails/
Dude, did you even read the cite?

Do you think it matters that SHE DELETED ONLY PERSONAL EMAILS THAT SHE WASN'T REQUIRED TO PROVIDE?

Do you think that might be important?

Maybe?

Is that a fact with relevance?

Do you think?
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  #171  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:59 PM
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Granted, in a trial you'd have to prove Hillary okd getting the info from russians and that they knew who it was going to.
Wat? That would have no bearing on anything.

In your own words, what do you think the issue here is?
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  #172  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:06 PM
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Dude, did you even read the cite?

Do you think it matters that SHE DELETED ONLY PERSONAL EMAILS THAT SHE WASN'T REQUIRED TO PROVIDE?

Do you think that might be important?

Maybe?

Is that a fact with relevance?

Do you think?
How do we know the difference since they're on the same server.

Plus I think all the emails in the server were the subpoena .

Last edited by Littleman; 02-01-2019 at 03:07 PM.
  #173  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:07 PM
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If you’ve done the crime
You'll do the time!
(Mueller beer)

Mueller tastes too good to hurry through
but when it’s time to indict
Mueller stands clear (beer after beer)

If you’ve done the crime (if you’ve done the crime),
You'll do the time! (Mueller beer)

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  #174  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:12 PM
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I do find the join date of our newest Trumpenheimer interesting, I'll admit...more interesting than his arguments for Trump's innocence, anyway.
  #175  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:13 PM
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Q. What will be the upshot of the Mueller Report once it is released?

A. ARGLE BARGLE HILLARY! She did some crimes! Because I heard about it!!!!111
A. Let's draw comparisons to other politicians in the same eschelon who committed crimes so we can speculate about the upshot.

Reaction.....oh no no you mentioned a Democrat .. prove this ...prove that......result
Drawn into all this BS bc some whiny Dems automatiically assume this a defense of trump.

Corruption is rife..... Just seems to only be a problem when an opposing party catches you, or thinks they caught you.
Then it's typically dealt with if it ever goes anywhere which is a big If by giving some bullshit petty sentence or a pardon and just assuming shame is enough.
  #176  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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I do find the join date of our newest Trumpenheimer interesting, I'll admit...more interesting than his arguments for Trump's innocence, anyway.
Like this


Have I ever even alluded to Trump being innocent? Nope.

Just that I doubt it goes real far.
  #177  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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How do we know the difference since they're on the same server.
She hired a law firm to go through them and delete only the personal ones.

Quote:
Plus I think all the emails in the server were the subpoena .
You think wrong (the subpoena was only for Benghazi-related emails)
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  #178  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:16 PM
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Looks at thread title.

See's references to Hillary by post 100

  #179  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:20 PM
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I thought you guys were the law and order party, you know pro law enforcement? Why does that go out the window when one of your own is under investigation? Now all of a sudden law enforcement is corrupt and we can't trust them and also everyone breaks the law so why pay attention to Trump in particular?

Make up your mind. Do you support the police and the rule of law in this country? If so why are you so desperate to malign them and attack their credibility when they are investigating someone on your side?

Can you clarify how you square this?
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  #180  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:20 PM
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A. Let's draw comparisons to other politicians in the same eschelon who committed crimes so we can speculate about the upshot.
I think a first step for you, before "drawing comparisons," would be to get an even slightly correct understanding of the facts. For example, you don't seem to understand that certain "other politicians" didn't actually commit the crimes you accuse them of. And you don't seem to understand what crime Trump may have committed. That makes your attempt to "draw comparisons" not particularly helpful.
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  #181  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:22 PM
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She hired a law firm to go through them and delete only the personal ones.

You think wrong (the subpoena was only for Benghazi-related emails)
That's cool if I ever get subpoena for a let's say lanlord tenant lawsuit , email I'll remember to just have my lawyer delete it and then claim it was personal.
  #182  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:23 PM
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I think a first step for you, before "drawing comparisons," would be to get an even slightly correct understanding of the facts. For example, you don't seem to understand that certain "other politicians" didn't actually commit the crimes you accuse them of. And you don't seem to understand what crime Trump may have committed. That makes your attempt to "draw comparisons" not particularly helpful.
True.... That's my mistake here
At least one anyhow

Last edited by Littleman; 02-01-2019 at 03:24 PM.
  #183  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:31 PM
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That's cool if I ever get subpoena for a let's say lanlord tenant lawsuit , email I'll remember to just have my lawyer delete it and then claim it was personal.
No attorney in their right mind would do that. Not only would there be case related sanctions, the attorney would potentially open themselves to censure or disbarment, their law firm's reputation would be trashed, and they would open themselves up to lawsuits for attorney malpractice. That's why law firms are used for these type of things. That and it's REALLY hard to completely obliterate all email traces. I did a post on this for Ancient Erudite a bit ago, let me see if I can dig it up. Ah, here it is: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...8#post21447568

Last edited by Sinaptics; 02-01-2019 at 03:33 PM.
  #184  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:35 PM
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No attorney in their right mind would do that.
I can think of one who would (and who used to work for Trump).

But you're right, legitimate lawyers like the ones Clinton hired wouldn't do that
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  #185  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:37 PM
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That was an excellent post, and I think your conclusion is pretty much the same conclusion that the factcheck link that Littleman posted indicates:

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The 33k emails, while I find it slightly off-putting that they were deleted, there is no overt indication that anything untoward happened.
This is, of course, a far cry from Littleman's characterization that Clinton "destroy[ed] evidence requested in an investigation, clearly obstruction."
  #186  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:51 PM
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No attorney in their right mind would do that. Not only would there be case related sanctions, the attorney would potentially open themselves to censure or disbarment, their law firm's reputation would be trashed, and they would open themselves up to lawsuits for attorney malpractice. That's why law firms are used for these type of things. That and it's REALLY hard to completely obliterate all email traces. I did a post on this for Ancient Erudite a bit ago, let me see if I can dig it up. Ah, here it is: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...8#post21447568
It Is hard, but in this case the FBI either couldn't recover them or simply declined to recover them.

I think we've seen plenty of cases of lawyers who've done just such things.
However I doubt I've got enough money or power to convince one.
  #187  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:56 PM
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It Is hard, but in this case the FBI either couldn't recover them or simply declined to recover them.
Well, in the absence of evidence let's just assume she committed a crime. How about...sex trafficking through a pizza shop basement?
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  #188  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:58 PM
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No attorney in their right mind would do that. Not only would there be case related sanctions, the attorney would potentially open themselves to censure or disbarment, their law firm's reputation would be trashed, and they would open themselves up to lawsuits for attorney malpractice. That's why law firms are used for these type of things. That and it's REALLY hard to completely obliterate all email traces. I did a post on this for Ancient Erudite a bit ago, let me see if I can dig it up. Ah, here it is: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...8#post21447568
Right, emails do not just exist on one party's server. They would exist in the mailboxes of anyone that sent or received anything from her.

All it would take would be one relevant email that was not included in the emails that were turned over to make the case.

That, after umpteen investigations over a dog's age, not a single email of that sort turned up should have shut down this line of accusation.
  #189  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:01 PM
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It Is hard, but in this case the FBI either couldn't recover them or simply declined to recover them.

I think we've seen plenty of cases of lawyers who've done just such things.
However I doubt I've got enough money or power to convince one.
Since you seem to want to dwell on Hillary Clinton in threads that aren't really about Hillary Clinton, have you ever considered starting your own thread about Hillary Clinton?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 02-01-2019 at 04:03 PM.
  #190  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:07 PM
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So clearly any Democrat is just gonna open a can of worms.
Anybody that can think of a republican who was high level and investigated in recent times to draw a comparison to?
Maybe one who got away and one who didn't?

Something that might help speculate the results here?
Or is there no example that could contribute?

Gotta be somebody worth drawing comparison with.

Even at a little lower levels.... I know this introduces flaw because we are probably not talking president or presidential candidate but at the same time it might introduce less media bias too.
  #191  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:08 PM
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"Drawing comparison" = Changing the subject.

That's pretty much what is going on here.
  #192  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:12 PM
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Since you seem to want to dwell on Hillary Clinton in threads that aren't really about Hillary Clinton, have you ever considered starting your own thread about Hillary Clinton?
I don't really care who it is.
Anyone we can draw a comparison with?

Even as a general relation to how these political investigations typically play out?
  #193  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:14 PM
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Since you seem to want to dwell on Hillary Clinton in threads that aren't really about Hillary Clinton, have you ever considered starting your own thread about Hillary Clinton?
Given how long this Board has existed, he may even invite himself to peruse the many, many Hillary Clinton threads which already exist so he may have an idea as to our thoughts when she was... you know... relevant.
  #194  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:19 PM
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So clearly any Democrat is just gonna open a can of worms.
What happened here wasn't "opening a can of worms". What happened here was "you making false claims and us correcting you". You could have avoided this by restricting yourself to factually true statements.
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  #195  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:20 PM
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Oh my fucking god are we seriously doing "BUT HER EMAILS" again?!

WHY?!

It has been two cunt-gargling years since Hillary Clinton has been anything even resembling relevant in national politics. Why is this a subject? Why is it even being brought up? Are we doing a "stupid conspiracy theories from two years ago" revival or some shit? The FBI investigated, opted not to prosecute (not even under the Trump administration, fancy that shit), it cost her the election, this was the most overplayed, overhyped non-fucking-story in history at the end of 2016, just let it die. Let's react to the kind of people who still insist on bringing this shit up the way we react to the folks who are big on Vince Foster. "Wow, what is actually wrong with you?"

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 02-01-2019 at 04:24 PM.
  #196  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:20 PM
Evil Economist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I don't really care who it is.
Anyone we can draw a comparison with?
Nixon.

FYI, he stepped down to avoid impeachment and died in disgrace.
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  #197  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:21 PM
Littleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
"Drawing comparison" = Changing the subject.

That's pretty much what is going on here.
Oh ok, well then your free to speculate without bothering with precedent.

That makes it about exactly a 50/50 chance of any conclusion you wish.
  #198  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:25 PM
Littleman is offline
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
Nixon.

FYI, he stepped down to avoid impeachment and died in disgrace.
Drawing that comparison was also a problem.

I'd concluded based on that one that if Mueller comes up with anything short of a taped confession were probably looking at a loong played out argument of interpretation of the evidence.

But everyone was like OMG Nixon.... really .
  #199  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:28 PM
jayjay is offline
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  #200  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:36 PM
Littleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
What happened here wasn't "opening a can of worms". What happened here was "you making false claims and us correcting you". You could have avoided this by restricting yourself to factually true statements.
Some of that too since yeah some of the things i thought were true definitely arent. Some party bias too since every single bit of actual info was of course interpreted in democratic favor.

I'd expect the same from a republican dominated forum though so.... Should have known better there too.
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