View Poll Results: The Mueller report. The week after its released.
Trump is not charged with any crime, and Mueller's report is found to have some procedural issues. 2 2.50%
Trump is not charged with any crime, Mueller's report offers disclosure showing it was fairly conducted. 26 32.50%
Trump is charged with a crime, but the evidence presented is flimsy and circumstantial and will be quickly dismissed by his legal team. 1 1.25%
Mueller has hard evidence on collusion, including emails, and recordings. Trump gets a subpoena. 51 63.75%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:46 PM
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This is a warning for an accusation of trolling, or being a Russian troll. I previously cautioned you against this type of thing here. Accusations of being a troll or trolling are not permitted in this forum.

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  #202  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:46 PM
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Nixon.

FYI, he stepped down to avoid impeachment and died in disgrace.
Actually, he died in New Jersey, but close enough.
  #203  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:46 PM
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Some party bias too since every single bit of actual info was of course interpreted in democratic favor.
Could you give an example of a thing which was 1) actually true, and 2) interpreted in Democratic favor?
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  #204  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:58 PM
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Could you give an example of a thing which was 1) actually true, and 2) interpreted in Democratic favor?
Source of the dossier.
I mean a campaign getting it's info from russians is pretty easily interpreted as Russian election interference.

On both sides.

Republican side is more clear though.
The last thing anyone ought to be doing during an election is unofficial non public business with a foreign nation with a stressed relationship to the US

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  #205  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:08 PM
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Christopher Steele is English. Not Russian.
  #206  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:10 PM
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I'd start here and then come back to the thread with a better lay of the land.
  #207  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:50 PM
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Source of the dossier.
I mean a campaign getting it's info from russians is pretty easily interpreted as Russian election interference.
If I ask an Australian man what he thinks about Trump, was there Australian election interference?
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  #208  
Old 02-02-2019, 12:19 AM
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Manafort is guilty, Flynn is guilty. If there is some legalistic nicety that says they don't go to prison because the Steele dossier has grammatical errors....I don't much care. Truth matters, punishment runs a distant second. Sitting President can't be indicted? Still don't care, want the truth, the whole truth, with the eight by ten color glossies with the arrows and notes..... Just the facts, man.

Last edited by elucidator; 02-02-2019 at 12:20 AM. Reason: malform follows malfunction
  #209  
Old 02-02-2019, 08:11 AM
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Manafort is guilty, Flynn is guilty. If there is some legalistic nicety that says they don't go to prison because the Steele dossier has grammatical errors....I don't much care. Truth matters, punishment runs a distant second. Sitting President can't be indicted? Still don't care, want the truth, the whole truth, with the eight by ten color glossies with the arrows and notes..... Just the facts, man.
Unfortunately, good people are given the shovels and rakes to clean up the mess that the GOP has created.
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  #210  
Old 02-02-2019, 10:35 AM
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Manafort is guilty, Flynn is guilty. If there is some legalistic nicety that says they don't go to prison because the Steele dossier has grammatical errors....I don't much care. Truth matters, punishment runs a distant second. Sitting President can't be indicted? Still don't care, want the truth, the whole truth, with the eight by ten color glossies with the arrows and notes..... Just the facts, man.
Bring that into the senate, and McConnell will enter the chambers and sit down with a seeing eye dog. Just a typical case of American blind senility.
  #211  
Old 02-02-2019, 09:11 PM
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"Trump is not charged with any crime, Mueller's report offers disclosure showing it was fairly conducted."

With a caveat: Not charged with any collusion-related crime (conspiracy, etc.). However, he very well may be implicated in obstruction or some other crime that doesn't involve "collusion".

Last edited by Dacien; 02-02-2019 at 09:12 PM.
  #212  
Old 02-02-2019, 11:45 PM
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To cover up a crime that didn't happen? Yeah, I guess, things are weird enough that makes sense. Sorta. Kinda.
  #213  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:16 AM
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To cover up a crime that didn't happen? Yeah, I guess, things are weird enough that makes sense. Sorta. Kinda.
It is indeed a little complicated, because you can do something that can be interpreted as obstruction without ever having been guilty of the original crime, just as you can be guilty of lying about something you weren't guilty of doing. Just ask Scooter Libby.

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  #214  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:08 PM
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It is indeed a little complicated, because you can do something that can be interpreted as obstruction without ever having been guilty of the original crime, just as you can be guilty of lying about something you weren't guilty of doing. Just ask Scooter Libby.


Okay...one more time for the home audience??


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  #215  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:27 PM
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Okay...one more time for the home audience??


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"No collusion...well, maybe 'collusion' with a little 'c,' just like Rudy said. Unless y'all are cool with it now."
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  #216  
Old 03-28-2019, 09:03 PM
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I'd start here and then come back to the thread with a better lay of the land.
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If I ask an Australian man what he thinks about Trump, was there Australian election interference?
Depends, are you campaign staff, and asking him to be a go between to gather dirt from russians?



Anyway, here we are, considering recent news ( no collusion, insufficient evidence for obstruction according to Mueller)

I'll call this " told ya"
  #217  
Old 03-28-2019, 09:26 PM
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Actually, he died in New Jersey, but close enough.
Actually Nixon died in New York but I understand those states are very close to one another.
  #218  
Old 03-28-2019, 10:26 PM
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There will be evidence of illegal financial actions by the president but no effort to indict him. There will be strong circumstantial evidence that he had motives for acting on behalf of Putin and took action in that direction, also members of his campaign will have been shown to have collaborated with the Russians. But there won't be a smoking gun showing direct involvement of Quid-pro-quo. So anybody who is unbiased and has half a brain will see that he colluded with the Russians, but there will be enough of a fig leaf that Republicans will claim that he is a pure as driven snow.
Well we'll have to see (if we see) what the full report says, but so far it looks like I was about spot on.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 03-28-2019 at 10:26 PM.
  #219  
Old 03-28-2019, 11:50 PM
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Well we'll have to see (if we see) what the full report says, but so far it looks like I was about spot on.
I missed this thread, but would've said the same thing. I strongly suspect that most of what happened had to do with Trump's fixation on getting a Trump tower in Moscow, and that--not expecting to win the election--he was just trying to leverage the campaign to further that end. That would explain all the lies and secrecy, and how he was careful to have a fig leaf.
  #220  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:10 AM
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Depends, are you campaign staff, and asking him to be a go between to gather dirt from russians?







Anyway, here we are, considering recent news ( no collusion, insufficient evidence for obstruction according to Mueller)



I'll call this " told ya"
The report hasn't been released yet.
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  #221  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:59 AM
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Anyway, here we are, considering recent news ( no collusion, insufficient evidence for obstruction according to Mueller)
Neither of these things are true.

Barr's summary of Mueller's report does not say there is no evidence of collusion.

Mueller did not say there is insufficient evidence of obstruction.
  #222  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:27 AM
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Depends, are you campaign staff, and asking him to be a go between to gather dirt from russians?



Anyway, here we are, considering recent news ( no collusion, insufficient evidence for obstruction according to Mueller)

I'll call this " told ya"
Please quote for me 4 random sentences from pages 110-112 of the Mueller Report.

Thanks!
  #223  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:41 AM
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... also members of his campaign will have been shown to have collaborated with the Russians.
Quote:
Special counsel did not find anyone with the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government
Quote:
...so far it looks like I was about spot on.
So, no.

If you want to quibble about the difference between "colloborating" and "conspiring and coordinating", fine, but then you will need to show that members of the Trump campaign "collaborated" with the Russians. Because
Quote:
The Special Counsel found that Russian government actors successfully hacked into computers and obtained emails from persons associated with the Clinton campaign and Democratic Party organizations, and publicly disseminated those materials through various intermediaries, including WikiLeaks. Based on these activities, the Special Counsel brought criminal charges against a number of Russian military officers for conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for the purposes of influencing the election. But as noted above, the Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts, despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign.
Regards,
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  #224  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:49 AM
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I liked this quote from Nate Silver: "Revising my prior on "Barr substantially misrepresented the Mueller Report" from "unlikely but not unthinkable" to "not the modal outcome but well within the thick part of the probability distribution".
  #225  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:42 AM
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So, no.

If you want to quibble about the difference between "colloborating" and "conspiring and coordinating", fine, but then you will need to show that members of the Trump campaign "collaborated" with the Russians.
You'll note that that statement is very specific to "conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for the purposes of influencing the election". It doesn't say anything about the myriad other ways in which "conspiring and coordinating" (or "collaboration", for that matter) may have occurred. I mean, I'm sure there was nothing untoward in all those meetings with Russians, including members of the Russian government, that multiple members of the Trump campaign team deliberately denied having, some to the point of committing felony perjury, but obviously there's no way of knowing. Perhaps they were swapping cake recipes.
  #226  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:59 AM
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Adoptions. Putin wanted to adopt Tiffany, but Trump insisted that he take Eric too, so the deal fell through. That's the story the Trumps told us (or something similar).

Last edited by JohnT; 03-29-2019 at 10:00 AM.
  #227  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:12 AM
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How many weeks until Democrats take responsibility for running a presidential campaign so poorly that they lost to a racist gameshow host? At the end of the day it will turn out that Trump is corrupt as hell (big surprise) but there is insufficient evidence to prove "collusion" with the dastardly Russians.
  #228  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:15 AM
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There's plenty. What there isn't, according Barr anyway, is evidence that the Trump campaign committed crimes in doing so.
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  #229  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:20 AM
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There's plenty. What there isn't, according Barr anyway, is evidence that the Trump campaign committed crimes in doing so.
Exactly this.

There is evidence of collusion. There is proof of collusion. We 100% know that collusion occurred even without the Mueller report.

The Barr summary of the Mueller report says that the collusion that definitely occurred did not rise to the level of criminality.

No crime does not mean no collusion. You can't have it both ways on collusion is not a crime.
  #230  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:54 AM
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You'll note that that statement is very specific to "conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for the purposes of influencing the election". It doesn't say anything about the myriad other ways in which "conspiring and coordinating" (or "collaboration", for that matter) may have occurred.
Didn't read the first quote?

:shrugs: I guess Shodan's law will have to apply from now on.

Regards,
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  #231  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:05 PM
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Didn't read the first quote?

:shrugs: I guess Shodan's law will have to apply from now on.

Regards,
Shodan
You mean the quote that was from a political appointee's summary of the Mueller report, that specified the Russian government, and "these efforts", not necessarily ruling out activities linked to other Russians (who may or may not have links to the Russian government), and potentially other "efforts" unrelated to the specific ones described in that part of the Barr letter?

Is that the quote you're talking about? Just to be sure.

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  #232  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:10 PM
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I'm reminded of the people who thought those redcapped children aren't racists because the PR firm hired to say they aren't racists said they aren't racists.
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  #233  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:25 PM
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It's remarkable how so many people aren't assuming that a political document written by a political appointee for political purposes might have some political spin within it.
  #234  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:32 PM
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Barr claims he'll release a redacted report by Mid-April.

I remain in my "wait and see" mode.
  #235  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:37 PM
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Same here. One thing I'd like to point out that there is a legal (afaik...I'm not a lawyer) difference between there being not enough evidence to prosecute or continue the investigation for something (i.e. not enough to prosecute) and exoneration. It seems to me that we don't really know at this point what there was, and my guess is that what the report is going to say is essentially there is insufficient evidence to convict Trump et al or even to successfully prosecute them, but that there were some irregularities that warranted almost a year of investigation. But for my part I'm in wait and see mode at this point.

I have to admit to some level of disappointment though not real surprise in this outcome.
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  #236  
Old 03-29-2019, 03:06 PM
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LOL, did y'all read that thing?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/conte...=.23fbce013398

"Also, I notice some media reports and other public statements mischaracterizing my March 24th, 2019 supplemental notification as a "summary" of the Special Counsels investigation or report...."

I think that's what they call a "walk back".

IMHO, the Republicans jumped WAY TOO SOON on the "complete exoneration" claim and are realizing that they have made a colossal blunder of epic... almost Trumpian... proportions. It's pretty obvious that word is getting out that even the stuff that won't be redacted is pretty fucking bad.

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  #237  
Old 03-29-2019, 03:32 PM
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LOL, did y'all read that thing?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/conte...=.23fbce013398

"Also, I notice some media reports and other public statements mischaracterizing my March 24th, 2019 supplemental notification as a "summary" of the Special Counsels investigation or report...."

I think that's what they call a "walk back".

IMHO, the Republicans jumped WAY TOO SOON on the "complete exoneration" claim and are realizing that they have made a colossal blunder of epic... almost Trumpian... proportions. It's pretty obvious that word is getting out that even the stuff that won't be redacted is pretty fucking bad.


Walk back is exactly how I read it too.
  #238  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:18 PM
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I mean, his original letter said he was summarizing the investigation and its conclusions!

"Guys, when I said 'summary' I meant something different. Like a 'recap'."
  #239  
Old 03-29-2019, 06:33 PM
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A sizzle reel, maybe.
  #240  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:59 PM
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I mean, his original letter said he was summarizing the investigation and its conclusions!

"Guys, when I said 'summary' I meant something different. Like a 'recap'."
I really have to wonder how much of Barr's... um.... whatever was written before he had a chance to read Mueller's report. Quite a bit, I'd wager, considering not even a single complete sentence was quoted.
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  #241  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:00 PM
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How many weeks until Democrats take responsibility for running a presidential campaign so poorly that they lost to a racist gameshow host? At the end of the day it will turn out that Trump is corrupt as hell (big surprise) but there is insufficient evidence to prove "collusion" with the dastardly Russians.
Aw, you make it sound like the racism was a bug, not a feature.
  #242  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:01 PM
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How many weeks until Democrats take responsibility for running a presidential campaign so poorly that they lost to a racist gameshow host?
Dunno. How long is it going to be before Republicans take responsibility for electing and continuing to support said game show host, despite every warning sign before the election and afterwards?
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  #243  
Old 03-30-2019, 09:20 AM
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It's remarkable how so many people aren't assuming that a political document written by a political appointee for political purposes might have some political spin within it.
Are you taking about the Mueller report?
  #244  
Old 03-30-2019, 09:26 AM
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Are you taking about the Mueller report?
Considering Mueller was appointed by Rosenstein, who was in turn appointed by Trump, I'd say that's not who iiandyii is talking about. Please do try to keep up.
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  #245  
Old 03-30-2019, 10:54 AM
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Dunno. How long is it going to be before Republicans take responsibility for electing and continuing to support said game show host, despite every warning sign before the election and afterwards?
No kidding. Why is there this assumption that Democrats are responsible for the decisions Republicans make? Republican voters aren't mindless drones that need to be steered by Democrats, their folly is their own responsibility.
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  #246  
Old 03-30-2019, 11:07 AM
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I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't require hard-core leftist political beliefs to recognize that our president is mentally-ill, a crook and, at the very least, sympathetic to our enemies.
Thank you! Thank you 1000x for this! (I would add: a narcissist, a bully, a con man, a cheat, a coward, a pathological LIAR, an ignoramus, a BSer of the highest degree, and an all-around horrible human being who possesses not even ONE iota of class, tact, morals, ethics, scruples, decorum, or decency)
  #247  
Old 03-30-2019, 12:33 PM
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You're just saying that because Hillary lost; get over it.

Republicans deal with Trump's impressive collection of flaws by declaring they don't exist.
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  #248  
Old 04-01-2019, 04:04 AM
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IMHO, the Republicans jumped WAY TOO SOON on the "complete exoneration" claim and are realizing that they have made a colossal blunder of epic... almost Trumpian... proportions. It's pretty obvious that word is getting out that even the stuff that won't be redacted is pretty fucking bad.
I think it's deliberate. The Republicans are holding back the real report while they saturate the media and social media with their fake narrative. By the time the real report comes out, Trump's supporters will be so wedded to the fake narrative they prefer that they'll dismiss the real report as fake. The "walkback" is purely for plausible deniability. Now that their fake narrative is out, they can claim that what they said didn't really contradict the real one because they can point to the walkback as what they had really meant in the first place, while simultaneously continuing to throw red meat to their followers. It's brilliant, Machiavellian, and really fucking evil.
  #249  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:13 AM
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Considering Mueller was appointed by Rosenstein, who was in turn appointed by Trump, I'd say that's not who iiandyii is talking about. Please do try to keep up.
What’s your point? Mueller was a political appointee appointed for a political purpose and he turned in a political document.

We are to take his word as gospel though.
  #250  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:17 AM
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What’s your point? Mueller was a political appointee appointed for a political purpose and he turned in a political document.

We are to take his word as gospel though.
I certainly take Mueller's report as "gospel" with regards to what is actually in Mueller's report. I find it remarkable that someone as distrustful of government as you is so eager to accept Barr's letter as a true, accurate, and complete representation of Mueller's report.
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